OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 23, 2014, 03:36:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Confirmation & Communion  (Read 13604 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« on: November 03, 2004, 11:52:30 AM »


The following appears on the Questions & Answers section of EWTN.  If I reading it correctly, it means that within the papal Catholic Church Confirmation has now become a Sacrament of individual choice rather than a necessity.  In fact one can now receive Communion without  have received the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Is this another  change within the papal church?

=========



Confirmation and Communion
Question from Karen Ryan on 11-02-2004:  
 
Dear Sir or Madam:

In a discussion about Catholic teachings, I was informed that the Catholic Church permits us to receive Holy Communion even though a person need not be confirmed. The Diocese I belong to has the Choice program, and they are telling 14 year olds that they do not have to receive Confirmation if they do not want to. No Priest, parent or anyone else can force them to receive Confirmation, it's their choice. I asked if these people are permitted to receive Communion and I was told that yes, they can receive Communion. Is this the true teaching of the Holy Catholic Church? Please tell me it's not so.

Thank you and God Bless!
 
Answer by Catholic Answers on 11-02-2004:  
Dear Karen,

It is true that one need not be Confirmed to receive Holy Communion. While no one should be forced to receive any sacrament, they should be urged to be Confirmed and taught WHY they should be. Any other approach is mindless!

What often happens is that teenagers decide they don't want to be confirmed and then a few years later they want to be married. Then they and the parish priest have to deal with rushing them through Confirmation preparation so that they can be confirmed before they take on the responsiblities of adult life. It's crazy--just crazy!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

==========

Orthodoc
 


Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2004, 12:08:13 PM »

Well receiving communion without confirmation is how it goes chronologically, isn't it?  I mean, you receive First Holy Communion around age 7, then you receive Confirmation around 13 or 14, when you "graduate" from CCD.
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 12:26:57 PM »

There is no change.  One could always receive Communion without Confirmation at least for a time as First Communion is at age 7 and Confiramtion is usually after. The age for receiving Confirmation in normal circumstances in the Latin Catholic Church is between the age of reason (7) and 16.  Confirmation is also supposed to be preceded by Catechesis.  However, the Catholic Church considers someone an adult at age 14 and therefore a 14 year old cannot be compelled to atttend Catechism or to receive Confirmation.  Hopefully this problem will be recognized and more bishops will choose to have Communion and Confirmation administered together at age 7.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 12:45:35 PM »

Hopefully this problem will be recognized and more bishops will choose to have Communion and Confirmation administered together at age 7.
 

But that would seem to be a step in a more conservative direction.  Doesn't seem to be a favoured direction considering they're thinking you don't even need confirmation.  I dunno...
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 01:21:46 PM »

It is not that they don't think you don't need it, only that you can't force a teenager into receiving it.  It also works the same in reverse, the Catholic Church won't accept someone under 14 as a convert without their parent's permission.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 01:37:43 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 01:22:06 PM »

[But that would seem to be a step in a more conservative direction.  Doesn't seem to be a favoured direction considering they're thinking you don't even need confirmation.  I dunno...}

That is what is so shocking about this.  Confirmation in the papal church is now an option or choice rather than a necissity that it is in the Orthodox Catholic Church.  What's next?

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 01:29:47 PM »

[It is not that they don't think you don't neeed, only that you can't force a teenager into receiving it. ]

Your statement makes no sense.  If they thought  it was needed they  wouldn't be giving the final decision to a teenager.
What's next...Baptism?

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 01:30:52 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2004, 01:35:14 PM »

It is not that they don't think you don't neeed, only that you can't force a teenager into receiving it.  It also works the same in reverse, the Catholic Church won't accept someone under 14 as a convert without their parent's permission.

I don't know.  It doesn't seem right to me to have people be "half-members" of the church, participating in some sacraments, but not all.  You can not force someone to receive Confirmation, of course, but then aren't they in essense rejecting a sacrament?  If someone earnestly doesn't want to be a "full member" of the church, why are they in the church at all? Huh
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2004, 01:41:25 PM »

I guess brother Orthodoc spends his time trying to find problems outside his Church, especially targeting the Church of Rome.

Your time would be better spent in prayer, especially for all you  feel that are in trouble.

Kyrie, eleison.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2004, 01:45:14 PM »

"It doesn't seem right to me to have people be "half-members" of the church, participating in some sacraments, but not all."

I agree.  If they decline they should also be barred from Communion until they receive Confirmation in my opinion.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2004, 01:52:33 PM »

"Your statement makes no sense."

Bob,

Right or wrong 14 is the "magic age of adulthood" in the Catholic Church.  It is the minimum age for marriage, it is the age at which the Church will not turn a teen away seeking to convert, it will aslo not force a teen to receive it.

Both our Churches teach receiving the Eucharist is necessary but neither forces anyone to receive it either.

Also please stop with the "Papal Catholic" term as it is inaccurate, especially for this situation.  Latin Catholics are not even uniform in this practice as Spanish-speaking catholic countries do confirm at baptism.  Eastern Catrholics baptize and chrismate together.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2004, 02:00:38 PM »

I do spend time researching for the differences between East & West, then I'm prepared to ask a informative question and not a uncharitable accusation.

And Orthodoc, many on EWTN use "Catholic Christian", and not the lowly term you use.

You resemble John Kerry at times, flip-flop.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2004, 03:04:04 PM »


[And Orthodoc, many on EWTN use "Catholic Christian", and not the lowly term you use.]

What lowly term?

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2004, 03:18:00 PM »

Orthodoc,

I think that Father Deacon Lance and Jakub are talking about the term, "Papal Catholic".

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2004, 03:21:12 PM »

[Also please stop with the "Papal Catholic" term as it is inaccurate, especially for this situation.  Latin Catholics are not even uniform in this practice as Spanish-speaking catholic countries do confirm at baptism.  Eastern Catrholics baptize and chrismate together.]

You mean like 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome" which is not only inaccurate but an oxymoron at that?  And please note I use the term 'papal Catholic' not 'Papal Catholic'.  It is my way of distinguishing my Catholicity from those who recognize papal authority.  Which all those in communion with Rome do including your own church.

Obviously there is no uniformity within said structure regarding the Sacraments.

[I guess brother Orthodoc spends his time trying to find problems outside his Church, especially targeting the Church of Rome.]

Gee, I thought it was a very appropriate subject matter for the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section.  Isn't this the place such subject matter be discussed?

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2004, 03:34:21 PM »

Quote
You mean like 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome" which is not only inaccurate but an oxymoron at that?

Orthodoc,

No offense, but I think you are jumping to conclusions. I haven't seen Fr. Deacon Lance nor Jakub use the above term anywhere in this thread. I believe that they would much rather prefer the terms "Catholic Christian", "Latin Catholic" or "Eastern Catholic".

I've never seen Father Deacon Lance nor Jakub use terminology about the Orthodox Church that anyone would take offense to and I think that we ought to show them the same respect, don't you?

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2004, 03:52:01 PM »

Aaron,

The debate over the term "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" goes way back and even to other forums Smiley

As far as Papal Catholics, that was the term that we (forum administrators and participants) decided almost 2 years ago to use because it is the best way to assuase the concers of both sides, who equally have a claim to the term Catholic.  As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.  If he wants to be more descriptive, he can specify Eastern or Western Church.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2004, 04:06:00 PM »

Quote
The debate over the term "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" goes way back and even to other forums

As far as Papal Catholics, that was the term that we (forum administrators and participants) decided almost 2 years ago to use because it is the best way to assuase the concers of both sides, who equally have a claim to the term Catholic.  As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.  If he wants to be more descriptive, he can specify Eastern or Western Church.

Anastasios,

In going through older posts on this forum, as well as orther forums I have seen this term used, so I totally understand why any Orthodox Christian would get bent out of shape over the term "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" because of the obvious implications.

I was not aware about the term "Papal Orthodox" being acceptable, so thank you for bringing it to my intention.

I was merely pointing out that although such terminology may be acceptable to use, that does not necessarily mean that people would not find such things offensive and I think that everyone should use some Christian charity when posting because there is no need to try to irk someone off just because it is permissible.

One can think of situations in which terminology could be used in regards to the Oriental Orthodox Churches, as well as the traditionalist Orthodox synods where one could use terms which could be found offensive, so I think that the same should be applied to the members of the Roman/Latin/Byzantine Catholic Churches.

Since the term "papal Catholic" is acceptable as deemed by the administrators, I shall now get down off of my box.  Grin

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2004, 04:20:42 PM »

Papal Catholic might be acceptable to Anastatsios & others but not to me.

Face it and accept it brethern,  both the East & West have imperfections, and when people finally realize that the Church of our Lord is divided. I do not acknowledge the term "The True Church", until East & West are united as "The One True and Holy Church".

Since Forum Administrators condone the papal Catholic label, I will refrain from posting here.

Peace to all,

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2004, 04:20:47 PM »

Aaron,

It's certainly a hard issue when even the terms become divisive.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2004, 04:22:39 PM »

Well Jakub, I'm sorry, but we debated this term for months and the Catholics here decided it was acceptable too. Why do you have a problem accepting a label which is TOTALLY FAIR? You are a Roman Catholic. You accept the Pope. That is what defines your brand of Catholicism--adherence to Rome.  Why then are you offended?

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2004, 04:25:58 PM »

Papal Catholic might be acceptable to Anastatsios & others but not to me.

Face it and accept it brethern,  both the East & West have imperfections, and when people finally realize that the Church of our Lord is divided. I do not acknowledge the term "The True Church", until East & West are united as "The One True and Holy Church".

Since Forum Administrators condone the papal Catholic label, I will refrain from posting here.

Peace to all,

james

What does this have to do with Church unity?  There are Catholics who accept the Pope and Catholics who don't.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2004, 04:26:44 PM »

And another point--on some Orthodox sites, allowing Latins to be called Catholics in the first place would be debated! Just goes to show that when you try to be fair, everyone gets mad at you from both sides.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2004, 04:29:31 PM »

Can I ask why "papal Catholic" is so offensive?  I'm Roman Catholic, we are under the pope, no?  Seems to denote "all the churches under the pope".  

(Ah, anastasios beat me to it)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 04:31:54 PM by MsGuided » Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2004, 04:34:10 PM »

[Can I ask why "papal Catholic" is so offensive?  I'm Roman Catholic, we are under the pope, no?  Seems to denote "all the churches under the pope".  ]

Ah!  Thank you or asking.  I've been trying to figure this out for five years now.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2004, 04:36:44 PM »

Quote
Papal Catholic might be acceptable to Anastatsios & others but not to me.

Face it and accept it brethern,  both the East & West have imperfections, and when people finally realize that the Church of our Lord is divided. I do not acknowledge the term "The True Church", until East & West are united as "The One True and Holy Church".

Since Forum Administrators condone the papal Catholic label, I will refrain from posting here.

Peace to all,

james

James/Jakub,

I am not a fan of the term "Papal Catholic" either, which is why I said something about it. I understand that such terms cheeses people off, just like the term "Monophysite" does to the Oriental Orthodox, and schismatics/heretics to the traditionalist Orthodox synods.

I certainly would hate to see you leave this site over something like this and I hope that you would stick around.

Perhaps it may be time for a poll to take place to see if we all couldn't find something more acceptable to the members of the Roman/Latin/Byzantine Catholic Churches, because I would hate to see this forum lose members over something so trivial.

Because as the description for this forum states:

Quote
Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches. (*in Communion with Rome).

Notice that it does not say "Papal Catholic" it uses terms that are acceptable and as such, I think that we should also be able to use more charitable terms when discussing the Roman/Latin/Byzantine Catholic Churches.

In Christ,
Aaron
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 04:38:00 PM by Arystarcus » Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2004, 04:37:59 PM »

[I believe that they would much rather prefer the terms "Catholic Christian", "Latin Catholic" or "Eastern Catholic". ]

I notice on the 'other' board you rightly identify yourself as a member of the 'Holy Orthodox Catholic' faith.  As such, how do you distinguish  yourself and your 'catholicity'  from those who are in communion with Rome (and therefore under its authority)  by allowing them to identify themselves as either "Catholic Christian" or 'Eastern Catholic".  

Do you agree with  Romes claim that it alone is the 'Catholic Church' or that we Orthodox Catholics left the Catholic  in 1054?

It never ceases to amaze me that those who come into Orthodox Catholic discussion groups to defend papal authority and supremacy are insulted when they are reminded they are part of that papal authority they defend and believe in.  Or profess such love and respect for the Pope  but are so insulted when they hear the word 'papal'.

My purpose for using such terminology is not to offend but to defend and distinguish my 'catholicity'  from theirs.  I use it because I've been told by them that the term 'Roman Catholic' is also insulting as well as  the term 'Latin Catholic' when speaking of the entire papal Church which includes those who are not 'Latin'.

I use it because I am equally insulted when I read rewrites of history such as the following propaganda put out by this church by
trying to take the exclusive rights to the word 'Catholic' for themselves -

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/ConvRus.htm

The Conversion Of Russia

Excerpts:

[However, the immediate object of their prayer, the conversion of Russia, might better be considered the country's reconversion. That is because, when the nation we now know as Russia became Christian a thousand years ago, it was the One True Church she embraced. The Christian East had not yet gone into schism.]

[Tragic as was Russia's defection after Constantinople broke with Rome in 1054, it is understandable on the natural, human level.]   

[Russia went schismatic in much the manner that European nations never part of the old Roman Empire fell into heresy at the time of the Protestant revolt, commonly referred to as the "Reformation." ]

As you can see, the implication is that Russia accepted Christianity when everyone was part of the Catholic Church.  Russia never left that Catholic Church.  Neither did any other Orthodox  Church.  Taht is why I defend my 'catholicity'.

But I'll concede to use terminology such as either 'Catholics In Communion With Rome' when speaking of the entire Papal structure or  'Eastern Catholic In Communion With Rome'  when speaking exclusively of the Unia.

Since we have gotten off the subject this will be my last post concerning this.  If someone wants to continue check the archives first.

Orthodoc   







    





Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2004, 04:49:06 PM »

"As far as Papal Catholics, that was the term that we (forum administrators and participants) decided almost 2 years ago to use because it is the best way to assuase the concers of both sides, who equally have a claim to the term Catholic.  As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.  If he wants to be more descriptive, he can specify Eastern or Western Church."

When was that?  Used in this context Papal is a thin disguise for Papist, which is a term of derision as is Uniate.  Roman, Latin, Eastern, Byzantine, + Catholic are acceptable and are no cause for confusion as no Orthodox Church identifies itself as simply Eastern Catholic but always Greek Orthodox, Orthodox Catholic, Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic, etc. but never just: (insert name) Catholic.  There is no need for this type of behavior but you choose to ignore or endorse it.

I expect better of the adminstrators, moderators, and memebrs of this forum but it seems insults and digs, as long as they are aimed at "Papal Catholics", are acceptable.  If you guys received this kind of treatment at byzcath.org you would be having a fit.

I find all of this unacceptable and I no longer feel welcome here.  What was supposed to be a place of dialogue has become home to fundamentalism and what can only be the veiled proselytizing of "Papal" Catholics.

I can no longer participate here nor can I recommend this site to others.  You will remain in my prayers.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2004, 04:53:45 PM »

Quote
I notice on the 'other' board you rightly identify yourself as a member of the 'Holy Orthodox Catholic' faith.
 

Orthodoc,

I am flattered that you take such an interest in me that you know what my profile over at the Byzantine Forum says.  Grin

Quote
As such, how do you distinguish  yourself and your 'catholicity'  from those who are in communion with Rome (and therefore under its authority)  by allowing them to identify themselves as either "Catholic Christian" or 'Eastern Catholic".

I do not "allow" anyone to use any term, they use it on their own. I believe that most people, and society in general associates the terms "Eastern Catholic" or "Catholic Christian" with the Roman Catholic Church and faith. That may not be acceptable to you, or anyone else for that matter, but sadly this is life and the way it is going to be.

I distinguish myself by using the term "Orthodox", which unless someone is a complete moron, they will know what I am talking about. I use the term "Orthodox Catholic", because I will soon be received into the Holy Orthodox Church and as such when I recite the Creed I says, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church" and as such I will be a member of this Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Quote
Do you agree with  Romes claim that it alone is the 'Catholic Church' or that we Orthodox Catholics left the Catholic  in 1054?

Of course I don't, because if I did, I wouldn't be seeking to enter the Orthodox Church.

Quote
It never ceases to amaze me that those who come into Orthodox Catholic discussion groups to defend papal authority and supremacy are insulted when they are reminded they are part of that papal authority they defend and believe in.  Or profess such love and respect for the Pope  but are so insulted when they hear the word 'papal'.

I think that some people take offense to the term because they know when you use that term that you aren't using it in a positive manner to distinguish them, rather that you are using it in a way to speak down at them. This may or may not be the case, but sometimes you do come off as being a little rough around the egdes and that is probably why others take offense.

Quote
My purpose for using such terminology is not to offend but to defend and distinguish my 'catholicity'  from theirs.  I use it because I've been told by them that the term 'Roman Catholic' is also insulting as well as  the term 'Latin Catholic' when speaking of the entire papal Church which includes those who are not 'Latin'.

See above.

Quote
I use it because I am equally insulted when I read rewrites of history such as the following propaganda put out by this church by
trying to take the exclusive rights to the word 'Catholic' for themselves -

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/ConvRus.htm

The above link is from a group that is considered schismatic by the Catholic Church and as such they do not speak for the Catholic Church and are not considered a part of the Catholic Church, so I don't see how posting that link in any way, shape or form proves your point.

Orthodoc,

I do hope that you do not take offense to anything I have said, because I was not trying to offend you. I don't have any problem with you and never have, so I hope that you will not hold any of my comments against me.

May God bless and keep us all.

In Christ,
Aaron

Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2004, 04:55:31 PM »

Aaron,

The debate over the term "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" goes way back and even to other forums Smiley

As far as Papal Catholics, that was the term that we (forum administrators and participants) decided almost 2 years ago to use because it is the best way to assuase the concers of both sides, who equally have a claim to the term Catholic.  As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.  If he wants to be more descriptive, he can specify Eastern or Western Church.

Anastasios

Thank you Anastasios!  I appreciate your support.  As you may have noticed I have modified it by not capitalizing the word papal.  As I have already stated I use the term to distinguish my catholicity from theirs.  I do not deny them the right to identify themselves as 'Catholics'.  Because of that I can't for the life of me understand why the word 'papal' is so offensive to some of them!  Notice I say some because the term is now being used by some of them in other Orthodox Catholic discussion groups.

Since you have reminded me that the term is acceptable I will continue to use it.  Saves on typing!  (I'm a two finger typist!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2004, 04:57:43 PM »

Quote
I find all of this unacceptable and I no longer feel welcome here.  What was supposed to be a place of dialogue has become home to fundamentalism and what can only be the veiled proselytizing of "Papal" Catholics.

I can no longer participate here nor can I recommend this site to others.  You will remain in my prayers.

Father Deacon Lance,

I also hope that you, along with Jakub will both be able to reconcile this situation with the mods, perhaps you could send them a pm and explain your situation to them? Because I would certainly hate to see either one of you leave as I believe that both of you do contribute to this forum.

Please take some time to think over your decisions and I do hope that the both of you will stick around.  Smiley

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2004, 05:03:43 PM »

Not that this link matters much, but:
http://www.iasted.org/conferences/2004/banff/ocsn-ipc.htm
Under the International Program Committee section, it lists one school as "Papal Catholic University" in Brazil.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 05:04:22 PM by MsGuided » Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2004, 05:33:48 PM »

[If you guys received this kind of treatment at byzcath.org you would be having a fit.]

Father Deacon Lance:

I went to the byzcath.org and did a search on the term 'Othodox In Communion With Rome' and came up with 14 PAGES CONSISTING OF 276  TIMES IT HAS BEEN USED!

Why always the one sided look at things?  Why is it that you can be offended by certain terminology but we aren't supposed to be?

May I remid you that 'papal' and 'papist' are two separate and distinct words.  I have yet to have any of you explain to me why its OK to say 'Papal Apartments', 'Papal Headquarters',  'Papal Encyclical', 'Papal Mass',  'Papal Bull',  etc. but not papal Catholic?

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 05:39:46 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,322



« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2004, 05:38:09 PM »

As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.

As long as he and you are willing to suffer "Eastern Orthodox" all the time.

It's the penalty paid for church names which are sales pitches. Object to someone else's sales pitch, and it's only fair for them to object to yours.

It's a lot easier and more charitable to just accept the names as they are and live with the fact that sometimes a certain care will be needed to distinguish the church names from the principles they are trying to claim.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2004, 05:51:09 PM »

Bob,

Do a search for Greek Schismatic at byzcath.org and you will find it gets 3 hits.  Neither you nor any other Orthodox would appreciate this label nor would I use it.  I do not  appreciate the label papal, and I really don't have to explain it.  It is not the name we use.  We do not object to your use of Catholic but you do object to our use of Orthodox, which officially we don't even use but is used only informally by some.  I do look at both sides.  I only ask to be treated in the same manner I treat others.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2004, 06:07:03 PM »

[I do not appreciate the label papal, and I really don't have to explain it.]

That's because you can't explain it.  Is it because it reminds you of the fact that your church is ultimately under papal authority whether you admit it or not.


 [We do not object to your use of Catholic but you do object to our use of Orthodox, which officially we don't even use but is used only informally by some.]

Read some of the discussions in some of the Orthodox Catholic- papal Catholic sites and then come back and make that claim with a straight face.  Read the archives here.  I have been accused here of having a 'Catholic'  (meaning papal Catholic)  envy  obsession  because of my defense of my right to use the term 'Catholic' as an Orthodox Christian.

Orthodoc

P.S.  I thought you signed off?
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2004, 06:13:21 PM »

"As long as he and you are willing to suffer "Eastern Orthodox" all the time."

But we ARE Eastern Orthodox! Why would that be offensive?

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,322



« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2004, 06:24:07 PM »

I've gotten complaints in the past (not necessarily here) about the word "Eastern".
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2004, 06:24:42 PM »

"As far as Papal Catholics, that was the term that we (forum administrators and participants) decided almost 2 years ago to use because it is the best way to assuase the concers of both sides, who equally have a claim to the term Catholic.  As such, Orthodoc is FULLY justified in using the term Papal Catholic.  If he wants to be more descriptive, he can specify Eastern or Western Church."

When was that?  Used in this context Papal is a thin disguise for Papist, which is a term of derision as is Uniate.  Roman, Latin, Eastern, Byzantine, + Catholic are acceptable and are no cause for confusion as no Orthodox Church identifies itself as simply Eastern Catholic but always Greek Orthodox, Orthodox Catholic, Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic, etc. but never just: (insert name) Catholic.  There is no need for this type of behavior but you choose to ignore or endorse it.

I'm sorry, Father Lance, but your claims don't stand. I am not going to go back in the threads and point this out; you can do this yourself. First of all, any references to Latin Catholics as being papists is corrected by us forum administrators whenever we catch it.  Papal Catholic is in no way a thin disguise for "Papist". We needed a term that addressed the body of Catholic Christians that counts the Pope of Rome as its head and/or center of unity, however you care to phrase it. "Catholic Christian" is ambiguous because Orthodox Christians are Catholic Christians, and "Latin Catholic" and "Eastern [Rite] Catholic" is too specific when one wants to address the whole body of Catholics in communion with Rome.

Quote
I expect better of the adminstrators, moderators, and memebrs of this forum but it seems insults and digs, as long as they are aimed at "Papal Catholics", are acceptable.  If you guys received this kind of treatment at byzcath.org you would be having a fit.

That's a cheap lie. We have many Catholics who post here such as Schultz who freely point out that they are proud Catholics.  And I correct name calling when I see it.  If you see an instance where we do not correct name calling, you can safely assume that it's because we didn't see it AND it wasn't reported via the report a post feature.

Quote
I find all of this unacceptable and I no longer feel welcome here.  What was supposed to be a place of dialogue has become home to fundamentalism and what can only be the veiled proselytizing of "Papal" Catholics.


You know we are not fundamentalists so please lose the hyperbole. If you would like to see very conservative Orthodoxy, I invite you to the euphrosynoscafe.com where you WILL be called names and your faith tradition derided.

Quote
I can no longer participate here nor can I recommend this site to others.  You will remain in my prayers.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Please, don't pray for us if your only reason is because we are such pitiful losers that you have no other recourse.  Prayer should never be used as a weapon or a threat.

I have sided with you against Orthodoc before Fr Lance and that has landed me in the middle. But this time, I am with Orthodoc because you are throwing around empty accusations.

We debated this issue of terms fully in the open for months in 2002 and if you had a problem with Papal Catholic, you should have brought it up then. And let me also remind you: THERE IS NO OFFICIAL TERMINOLOGY FOR THIS SITE ANYWAY (except that papist and Monophysite are not allowed)--if you notice, Bob is the only one who uses the term Papal Catholic regularly. I prefer Roman Catholic or when necessary Eastern Catholic. But then if you say the RCC and use that in reference to an Eastern Catholic, you get smashed with a proverbial club--here, on Byzcath.org, and anywhere on the net where Eastern Catholics reside. So how else but with the term "Papal Catholic" are people supposed to distinguish between Catholics centered on Rome and Orthodox Catholics??

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2004, 06:25:07 PM »

I've gotten complaints in the past (not necessarily here) about the word "Eastern".


Fair enough. I don't find the term offensive at all.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2004, 06:26:43 PM »

As long as he and you are willing to suffer "Eastern Orthodox" all the time.

It's the penalty paid for church names which are sales pitches. Object to someone else's sales pitch, and it's only fair for them to object to yours.

It's a lot easier and more charitable to just accept the names as they are and live with the fact that sometimes a certain care will be needed to distinguish the church names from the principles they are trying to claim.


That's what we tried to do. I would have been fine calling Catholics Catholics and Orthodox Orthodox--but then when you try to be specific, and say Roman Catholic, the Eastern Catholics get upset because they say they are not Roman Catholic.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2004, 06:40:35 PM »

Let me post one more response.  Father Lance, when you said that our forum engages in "what can only be the veiled proselytizing of "Papal" Catholics" that got me riled up too. Because you obviously think that we hate you and are malicious towards you. I have stated it a million times and I will state it again: I love the Catholic Church and hope that it will return to Orthodoxy. But part of charity and love is to tell the truth.  And to counter the charge that we are "veiled" let me just blow it out in the open: barring a sudden and total change whereby your entire Church decides to return to Orthodoxy, I will stick with Fr Georges Florovsky, who stated that Church unity can only be described as "Universal conversion to the Orthodox Church."  We want you and every other Catholic to become Orthodox because we believe that it is the Church of Christ.  That's not thinly veiled, it's not disguised. We want you to come home to Orthodoxy and be one with us. If your entire Church comes, then that is a billion times better. But if it won't come, we want YOU to come, Father Lance. You and every one of our "separated bretheren" to use a Catholic term.  There is no hiding this desire.

There can be dialogue on points that truly are misunderstood between the two parties.  But there is nothing to misunderstand about papal universal jurisdiction. The Pope either has it or he doesn't.  Rome won't concede and neither will the Orthodox. We can keep talking about the other stuff, but until this issue is solved, the only solution is for you and every other Catholic to come into Orthodoxy.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2004, 06:53:04 PM »

I second anastasios's response above.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2004, 07:01:03 PM »

I second anastasios's response above.

Demetri

========

So do I!  Very well stated Anastasios!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2004, 07:07:58 PM »

The fact that you could receive Holy Communion before being confirmed in the RCC is quite normal. BUT, and thats a big but, Confirmation was ALWAYS required to complete your initiation into the RCC. Confirmation in the RCC made one a soldier for Christ, and it this was the important part, it infused you to the Holy Spirit.  I made my first Holy Communion when I was 7 and received my Confirmation when I was about 10 years old.  So it is not unusual for one to be receiving Holy Communion years before you receive the sacrament of Confirmation.  What should bother the RC's is that this sacrament is now considered a choice rather than a plan for salvation. I just cant imagine what the good nuns would have done if I or my family decided not to participate in the sacrament of Confirmation.  I think I would have had some new knots on my head to show for it.  This sacrament is, or was, taken quite seriously in my younger years. But I chaulk this up to another INOVATION in the long line of inovations of the modern Roman Catholic church.
 
JoeS
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2004, 07:08:24 PM »

Quote
P.S.  I thought you signed off?

Now that isn't very nice....  :-";"xx
Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2004, 07:11:59 PM »

>>>We want you and every other Catholic to become Orthodox because we believe that it is the Church of Christ.  That's not thinly veiled, it's not disguised. We want you to come home to Orthodoxy and be one with us. If your entire Church comes, then that is a billion times better. But if it won't come, we want YOU to come, Father Lance.

This is almost humorous coming from someone who's just spilled a heap of virtual ink defending the fact that he has yet to formally enter the Orthodoxy and still receives Uniat "mysteries". Huh

Anastasios, who exactly is your bishop?  And what faith does that bishop confess?  Orthodox Christian, or Heterodox?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 07:13:58 PM by Lemko Rusyn » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2004, 07:16:55 PM »

I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2004, 07:17:31 PM »

Faith moves mountains. Patience is a virtue. Anastasios will find his way in his own time.  I feel he is an excellent defender of Orthodox beliefs.

JoeS

//This is almost humorous coming from someone who's just spilled a heap of virtual ink defending the fact that he has yet to formally enter the Orthodoxy and still receives Uniat "mysteries".//
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2004, 07:45:59 PM »

Anastasios,

I will stand by my statements.  People should be called by the name they use not one invented by another.  Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches.  Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a place on a forum that is for fraternal dialogue.  And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here.

As to fundamentalism, is this place as bad as the E-cafe or Indiana list? No.  Is it headed in a similar direction? You tell me.  Calling the Orthodox graceless heretics would not be tolerated at byzcath, but calling Catholics such is tolerated here.

My prayer was neither a weapon or a threat, but meant as a sincere parting gesture, which is why I said: "You will remain in my prayers" as opposed to "I will pray for you pitiful losers to be enlightened."

And as you want Catholics to become Orthodox I also want Orthodox to become Catholic so there we have it.  The difference again is at byzcath an Orthodox may freely encourage a Catholic to investigate the Orthodox Church if one is swaying that way.  A Catholic cannot do so here.

If you want to have a forum about sincere dialogue everybody has to get a fair shake.  The Catholic Church has to be treated as a seperated Sister Church not another heretical sect to be converted to Orthodoxy, otherwise you become the Orthodox version of Yourcatholic.com.

Fr. Deacon Lance

« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 07:49:59 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2004, 08:08:42 PM »

Father Lance,

If I had created the term papal Catholic, then you would have a point. If I enforced the term papal Catholic, you would have a point. But a group of people in discussion created that term 2 years ago.  I don't see it as equivalent to Greek Schismatic. You do. We see differently I guess.

I have no problem calling Catholics Catholic and Orthodox Orthodox. But to some of our posters, this hearkens back to a time when words meant something far greater than they do now.  We also have to take into account people online who say that Orthodox are not Catholic and that they aren't really Orthodox either since they deny the papal doctrines. It may be a specific, ultramontane variety of Catholic, but it is nevertheless prevalent.

Fr Lance, you are welcome to continue posting on this forum. It's duly noted that you don't like the term papal Catholic.  How would you suggest that we instead address your Communion when we want to differentitate it from ours, which also styles itself Catholic?  We can talk about your suggestions.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2004, 08:21:38 PM »

Anastasios,

Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, would be fine, as are Byzantine, Ukrainian, Maronite, (fill in name) Catholic Church etc.  I do not think this should confuse or offend anyone as no Orthodox Church in the English speaking world uses these designations without the qualifier Orthodox.

And let it be noted that by using these terms I am not trying to deny the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church or deny her the name.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2004, 08:24:27 PM »

Agreeing with Deacon Lance on his last post, I find it most interesting that the 3 priests within Orthodoxy(Antiochian,Coptic and Romanian) that I communicate with introduce me to others as James, a Latin or Roman Catholic. I might be a cradle RC, but there is a trace of Eastern Catholic & PNC floating in the background.


I will visit here on & off, but this labeling has a bitter taste.

Pokoj,
james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2004, 08:41:10 PM »

[Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches. Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a p[lace on a forum that for fraternal dialogue. And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here. ]

Oh, so now those of us who defend our Catholicity as Orthodox Christians in our own discussion group are labeled as fundamentalist Orthodox who lack common sense when we differentiate our catholicity from those of you who accept papal authority?!

[Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a p[lace on a forum that for fraternal dialogue. And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here. ]

Sez who?  Maybe you better send an email to this following "Papal Catholic University'  to let them know they are really calling themselves Catholic schismatics. -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6916640&dopt=Abstract
 

As I have alluded to before, no one uses the term 'papal' more than the papal Catholic Church itself.

I guess the following papal Catholic website is really referring to schismatic documents when it uses the terminology 'papal documents' -

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatstmts/


Documents of Vatican II
Encyclicals and Other Papal Documents


Orthodoc



Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2004, 08:55:23 PM »

If I can poke my head into this once more...

No one means offense by the term "papal Catholic," and it shouldn't be used to denigrate the churches under Rome.  When you call someone a schismatic, there is offense meant, and it's pretty obvious.  The "papal" part is just to distinguish that they are under the authority of the Pope.  It would only be used when trying to refer to both the Eastern and Western Catholic churches, all under Rome, without having to type or write so much.  The only reason that it seems people shy away from JUST Catholic and JUST Orthodox is because they all recognise that the other side will feel robbed of their Catholicity or Orthodoxy.  So yes, we make little clarifiers.  If there is a better word to describe Eastern and Western Catholic churches, I'm sure everyone would be open to it.
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2004, 08:55:26 PM »

And the winner for using the word "Papal" the most times in a single post is....

[dramatic pause]...........[/dramatic pause]

Orthodoc!

 Grin   :smiley1:    Wink
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 08:56:25 PM by Arystarcus » Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2004, 09:19:37 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.

You don't need a phd or a diploma from Havard to identify the intent of the word papal and its use by Orthodoc.

Its a endless circle topic here, too bad.

james

Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2004, 09:29:13 PM »

[And the winner for using the word "Papal" the most times in a single post is....]

Check again.  I use the term 'papal Catholic' not 'Papal Catholic' as you say.  There is a big difference.  the small 'p' with the capitol 'C' puts the emphasis on the Catholic not on the papal.  It clarifies the type of Catholic I am speaking of (those who recognize papal authority as opposed to those that don't within the Holy Catholic  and Apostolic Church.

Father Deacon Lance claims he doesn't deny us our 'catholicity'. But  that is exactly  what he is doing when he comes into an Orthodox Catholic site and complains  to us [who are the original 'Byzantines' and 'Eastern' Christian portion of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic  Church] that we concede those identities to his church.  A church  which left both the Byzantine Church and the Eastern Church for allegiance to Rome & the authority of the Pope.  

Just yesterday or the day before he posted in one of his replies to me that he praises the fact that his church restored communion with Rome and the Pope.  But yet he considers the word 'papal' in any kind of identity of his church as an insult.  Makes no sense.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2004, 09:49:22 PM »

[There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.]

You don't get around too much, do you?

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/krehel_orthodox_catholic_faith.htm

Speaking of Alex (Dr Alexander Roman) who identifies himself as an Orthodox Catholic and a member of the UGCC over THERE.  Lets see what that same Alex writes in his answer to the question of 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'  in the Ukrainian Orthodox website where he is one of the monitors of the Questions & Answers section -

====

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/capitalletters.htm


Answer:It is true that there are a number of Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests who insist on calling themselves "Orthodox Christians in union with Rome." This is however a term which is based on a fallacy and which therefore makes no sense, apart from the fact that it is also offensive to Orthodox Christians. To be an "Orthodox Christian" in the truest sense of the word is to be a member of the One, Holy, Orthodox-Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of this Church, due to a number of (new) doctrines it espouses, including those affecting the position of the Pope of Rome. Even if a Greek Catholic calls himself or herself an "Orthodox Christian," as is done in the Liturgy anyway, and even if he or she accepts the majority of Eastern positions on the issue of the Procession of the Holy Spirit etc., that does not mean that he or she really is an "Orthodox Christian" in the true sense of the word.


========

Quite a contradiction.  Wouldn't you say?

Orthodoc


   
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2004, 09:56:09 PM »

Quote
Check again.  I use the term 'papal Catholic' not 'Papal Catholic' as you say.

I didn't say "papal Catholic" or "Papal Catholic", all I said was Papal, as in a general use of the word. It was meant as a joke, you know, ha ha?
Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2004, 10:21:29 PM »

>>>I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

Forgive me, Anastasios, I was reading something last week you posted over a year ago & didn't take note of the date.

God bless you and your wife.  Glad she's doing better.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 10:25:21 PM by Lemko Rusyn » Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2004, 10:27:47 PM »

Orthodoc,

I'm not in the dark regarding Alex, nor the Ukrainian Orthodox site, but before you label someone remember, not all members that identify themselves as Roman Catholics confess the same ideology regarding the Pope etc.

So do whatever floats your boat, but don't include me within your definition, I can be awfully cantankerous.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2004, 10:43:32 PM »

>>>I no longer receive mysteries in the Catholic Church and my faith is the Orthodox faith. I have not spoken about my personal affiliations for a long time publicly so you really do not have any clue where I stand at this moment.

Forgive me, Anastasios, I was reading something last week you posted over a year ago & didn't take note of the date.

God bless you and your wife.  Glad she's doing better.

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

I do not hold it against you. Thank you for your contributions to this site and I hope to see you continue to post.  And thank you for your consideration for my wife, who is thankfully feeling much better.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2004, 11:13:04 PM »

Jakub,

Thank you also for your many wonderful posts to the forum. Please keep posting as you feel you can.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2004, 11:23:11 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.


Posted elsewhere on these boards in the past is the fact that the canonical name of the Orthodox Church is the "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East". Even Bishop Ware cites this in his popular The Orthodox Church.
I personally use the term "Orthodox Catholic" just about every single day and have done so since 1962 when my father informed me that WE were 'Catholics' and that my neighhorhood debate opponents were 'Roman' Catholics.
Indeed, I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2004, 11:35:01 PM »

Anastasios,

I will stand by my statements.  People should be called by the name they use not one invented by another.  Anyone with common sense understands that Catholic Church refers to the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, just as Orthodox Church refers to all the National Orthodox Churches.  Papal Catholic is the equivalent of Greek Schismatic and neither have a place on a forum that is for fraternal dialogue.  And I do feel shots are allowed at the Catholic Church here.


How ironic! You object to the use of a new or less used (and not incorrect) term referring to your communion and then coin a new one for ours -"National Orthodox Churches" - I've never seen that one. I assume you meant the contradiction.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2004, 11:59:02 PM »

There are only 2 people I know that use the term "Orthodox Catholic" or version of it, Bob HERE and Alex over THERE.

Oye, compadre, I use "Orthodox Catholic" to identify myself when talking with folks I know are members of the Catholic Church ICWR (how's that for an alternative?!  Grin).
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,730


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2004, 11:59:14 PM »

Demetri,

Apologies.  Autocephalous/Autonomous would have been the better choice there.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2004, 04:23:26 AM »

Indeed, I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.


Or 'Roman Catholic', seeing as the Roman Empire continued to exist with its capitol at Constantinople long after Rome had fallen. Greeks have the longest standing and most recent historical claim to being Romans Wink Grin

John
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2004, 09:13:30 AM »

Or 'Roman Catholic', seeing as the Roman Empire continued to exist with its capitol at Constantinople long after Rome had fallen. Greeks have the longest standing and most recent historical claim to being Romans Wink Grin

John

You know, John...you're right!!!

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2004, 12:29:12 PM »

 [I could probably make a pretty good argument that if any church has a right to use the term 'Greek Catholic', it would be the Orthodox.]

Exactly!  The same as 'Byzantine Catholic' or 'Eastern Catholic'.  Problem is that there are very few identities that this church can come up with (that refuse to acknowledge their alliegance to Rome and papal authority) that correctly identifies them for what they are.  Which is a part of the papal Catholic Church who still retains the customs and liturgics of the church their ancestors turned their backs on to pledge alliegance to the Pope in the later part of the 16th century or the early part of the 17th century.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2004, 12:47:22 PM »

Orthodoc,
One of our local "Byzantine Catholic" parishes has the following signage:

St. Anne's Roman Catholic Church
        (Byzantine Rite)

At the least, they are honest.


Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2004, 01:12:32 PM »

[Orthodoc,
One of our local "Byzantine Catholic" parishes has the following signage:

St. Anne's Roman Catholic Church
    (Byzantine Rite)

At the least, they are honest.]

Yes they are and I deeply admire and respect such honesty!  I know that if I accepted Papal Supremacy and acknowledged an alliegance to Rome I would be proud to profess that fact.  I certainly wouldn't take it as an insult whenever someone reminded me of it.

I agree that the word 'papist'  is a very derogatory term coined by the Protestants.  That is why I never use such a term.  But as I have stated before, 'papist' and 'papal' are two separate and distinct words with two different meanings.  If those who come in here try and connect the two then it isn't my fault.  I use the term to distinguish my 'catholicity' from theirs.  Some seem to connect the word 'papal' with the word schismatic.  Why?  I don't know.  When a new Pope is elected he takes what is referred to as a "Papal Oath'.  Does that mean he is taking a schismatic oath?  Of course not!

Orthodoc



« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 01:16:43 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2004, 01:15:07 PM »

>>>who still retains the customs and liturgics of the church their ancestors turned their backs on to pledge alliegance to the Pope

Pot, kettle.  Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.

I really don't get where your hostility is coming from.  Does your baptized-Greek-Catholic pastor share your attitude?  Does he speak so disrespectfully of his aunts & uncles who were dedicated members of the Uniat church in Jessup, Pa.?

What would happen if your genealogical research happened to turn up an ancestor who was a proud Papist in his or her village in Lemkovyna?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 01:22:50 PM by Lemko Rusyn » Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2004, 01:34:32 PM »

Orthodoc,

 Your judgements and accusations are becoming meaningless rhetoric cast into the wind.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2004, 01:44:01 PM »

[Pot, kettle. Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.]

My grandparents didn't have a choice when they were in Europe.  The Orthodox Church was restricted in the area they came from.  That's why they were taught if they ever left and went where there were 'Pravoslavny' (Orthodox) they must return to their true faith and heritage.  Which is exactly what they did when they arrived here in the U.S.  The whole parish I was brought up in did the same thing.

You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.  But the Polish king did the same thing to the Orthodox Catholics within the Orthodox lands he conquered after the Union of Brest was signed.  Rather than having to suffer in silence for 50 years like the Unia did, my ancestors had to suffer in silence for almost 400 years because of that edict put out by the Polish King -

======

But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, 1596 LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

=======

Orthodoc

P.S.  My Greek Catholic baptised priest reads what I write and has yet to disagree with what I write.  And, since when does speaking the truth denote disrespect to anyone or anything?

-----------

[Orthodoc,

Your judgements and accusations are becoming meaningless rhetoric cast into the wind.

james ]

Then why are you still here  reading them?

orthodoc



« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 01:45:33 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2004, 01:55:52 PM »

I need a good laugh.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2004, 01:56:30 PM »

>>>You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.

Yes, but have you ever?

Yes, we are kind of annoyed that our clergy were sent to the gulag and that our bishops were murdered or left to die in prison.  This adds to, not negates or minimizes, the persecution and suffering of the Orthodox due to his brutality.  Greek Catholic - Orthodox isn't a zero-sum game.  (Now we're way off topic, though. My point is made.)
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2004, 02:20:37 PM »

[Yes, we are kind of annoyed that our clergy were sent to the gulag and that our bishops were murdered or left to die in prison.  This adds to, not negates or minimizes, the persecution and suffering of the Orthodox due to his brutality.  Greek Catholic - Orthodox isn't a zero-sum game.  (Now we're way off topic, though. My point is made.)]

Multiply that by 350+ years and you'll see how we feel!

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2004, 04:41:48 PM »

I have been delayed in response due to my anti-virus scan(7 found).

Anyway, Orthodoc, let us acknowledge that we agree to disagree regarding certain items of faith and beliefs, let me say that my daily prayers most likely resemble yours, with some minor quirks, but let me say that I pray for both the Eastern & Western Churches and their particular clergy and brethern.

I am not your enemy nor trying to be one, but I am trying to understand you and others, however I will not participate in any discussion unless it is done in a charitable way.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2004, 05:12:13 PM »

[I am not your enemy nor trying to be one, but I am trying to understand you and others, however I will not participate in any discussion unless it is done in a charitable way.]

So any discussion that is opposed to your way of thinking will be considered as uncharitable.  Even if it is the truth?

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,322



« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2004, 05:52:52 PM »

Nothing is less compelling than a "your ancestors persecuted my anscestors!" squabble. Let the dead bury the dead.
Logged
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2004, 06:09:10 PM »

Nothing is less compelling than a "your ancestors persecuted my anscestors!" squabble. Let the dead bury the dead.


 Let the Church chant "Amin!"
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2004, 06:25:41 PM »

Charitable to me is presenting your idea without the BS description that you attach to another member or his faith.

Its the truth as YOU understand & know, but  have YOU attained perfection ? Are YOU spiritually perfected ? Are YOU without stain ?

If this site professes to be open to all, Orthodox & non-Orthodox, it needs to amend its rules, if not then restrict it to Orthodox Only and you all can condemn & gossip about the rest of us.

There appears to be a disconnect somewhere other then me.

Play your game Bob as a single.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2004, 06:28:21 PM »


 I just want to say that it is good to see "Lemko Rusyn" again on a board!!!!  Hey man!!
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
CatholicEagle
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


HH St.Pius X, Pope of Rome, Ecumenical Pontiff


« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2004, 06:44:10 PM »

[Pot, kettle. Your ancestors did too, dude.
Just because your parents or grandparents returned to the Orthodoxy doesn't mean you descend from an unbroken line.]

My grandparents didn't have a choice when they were in Europe.  The Orthodox Church was restricted in the area they came from.  That's why they were taught if they ever left and went where there were 'Pravoslavny' (Orthodox) they must return to their true faith and heritage.  Which is exactly what they did when they arrived here in the U.S.  The whole parish I was brought up in did the same thing.

You all complain about Stalins suppression of the Unia in the 1940's.  But the Polish king did the same thing to the Orthodox Catholics within the Orthodox lands he conquered after the Union of Brest was signed.  Rather than having to suffer in silence for 50 years like the Unia did, my ancestors had to suffer in silence for almost 400 years because of that edict put out by the Polish King -

======
But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, 1596 LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.
=======
Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed[this king ruled poland for 37 more years after this dekret].. Poland was called the kingdom of Erasmus [by Adam Zamoyski,in the book The Polish Way]  for its multiplicity of false faiths[Polish arians, lutherans,anabaptists, unitarians,universalists, and other such crude.] The worse I have heard was that the Orthodox bishops were not recognized as bishops, until 1632, with their respective sees but the Orthodox faithful were not called treasonous.. Poland was never like autocratic Russia. We had no oprochniki attacking and subverting the nobles-- Polish nobles were the  literal kings of their estates . We had no soldiers attacking religious sects. Poland never had an inquisition[sadly,tho]
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2004, 06:45:07 PM »


 I just want to say that it is good to see "Lemko Rusyn" again on a board!!!!  Hey man!!

I'm happy to see you posting again, buddy!

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2004, 07:03:33 PM »

[Charitable to me is presenting your idea without the BS description that you attach to another member or his faith.]

And that is your personal opinion which you are entitled to as I am mine.  Only problem is that you dismiss anything stated that you do not like as  a BS  discription.  May I remind you that this is a discussion site.  If you think what I say is BS then prove me wrong.  Which neither you nor anyone else has done.  Instead some of you reply by going after my priest!

You have yet to give an appropriate reason why you can use the term 'papal' in front of any other word but 'Catholic'.  Your own church does it all the time when referencing things relating to the Pope.. Papal Oath, Papal Arbitration, Papal Visit, Papal Mass, Papal Apartments, Papal Election, Papal Decision,  Papal Motorcade,  Papal Encyclical, etc.  Need I go on?   But papal Catholic is a no no?  WHY

If we are restricted from saying anything that  may offend someone then why even have a discussion?  I have yet to hear and apology for the use of the term 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' from any of you.


[Its the truth as YOU understand & know, but  have YOU attained perfection ? Are YOU spiritually perfected ? Are YOU without stain ?]

No.  And neither are you.  If you don't like what I say either debate me or prove me wrong instead of having a temper tantrum!

Orthodoc



Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2004, 08:00:20 PM »

[Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

If you know then why are you asking me?  But since you asked it was most probably King Sigmund-August II.   


[Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed]

The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia - by * Professor Dimitry Pospielovsky   
   
(*)  Dimitry Pospielovsky is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Western Ontario.  He is the author of The Russian Church Under The Soviet Regime, 1917-1982v (SVS Press, 1984) and is one of the foremost authorities on Russian Church History.

Page 93

The laity, the parish clergy, and particularly the brotherhoods refused to accept the union with Rome. The protest movement developed and spread quickly, joined at first by a single bishop, Gideon (Bolodan) of Lvov. The Polish King gave in to these pressures and authorized the convening of a local council of those bishops, clergy and laity of the Roman and Greek Church who accepted the papacy --i.e. those who did not accept the Unia were not invited.

The Council met in the city of Brest on October 6, 1596. In order to prevent a parallel Orthodox council in any of the numerious Orthodox Churches in the city, the now Uniate Metropolitan of Kiev sealed all Orthodox Churches on the day before the Council was to begin, except for the cathedral where the Council was to take place. The Orthodox, nevertheless, converged on Brest as well, with prince Ostrozhskii and his private army at the head. Failing to find an open church, and after waiting in vain for an invitation from the Uniates, they accepted an offer of a Protestant church school for a separate Orthodox Council. The Uniate Council passed a resolution excommunicating all the Orthodox clergy and laity participating in the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox in turn suspended all the clergy and lay participants in the Uniate Council and addressed a petition to the King, asking him to deprive "the traitors" of their dioceses and parishes. But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

Page 96

The Polish government could ill afford continuous persecutions of the Orthodox. A war with Turkey loomed on the horizon, and in 1621 the Cossacks presented an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all persecutions of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks.  In response, the 1623 Sejm declared toleration of the Orthodox Church and permitted the legitimization of Orthodox bishops and the restoration of their dioceses.

========

But the joy of the Orthodox was short-lived.  The legalization of the Orthodox Church resulted in mass return to Orthodoxy especially in Eastern Belorussia.  This resulted in mass attacks on Orthodox households  and Churches led by bishop Josaphat (Kuntsevish).  The citizens revolted which resulted in Josaphat's death.  

Roman Catholic revenge was immediate and brutal.  All Orthodox Churches were once again confiscated or closed.  Everywhere in the commonwealth the Orthodox lost the right not only to build but to  repair churches; Pope Urban VII proclaimed that any Roman Catholic who dared to oppose the use of the sword against the Orthodox would be excommunicated.

=======

Now, since we have gotten way of he original subject of this thread as well as the 'papal Catholic' issue, if you want to continue this open up a new thread.

Orthodoc




Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #89 on: November 04, 2004, 08:12:02 PM »

I guess the Lord missed a few when He granted common sense & manners.

Indeed this is a forum which allows & relishes the bashing of others by its Orthodox members, wondered why membership is shrinking.

Fair & balanced, highly unlikely.


james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2004, 08:30:10 PM »

Jakub,

There is a fine line between an attack and a criticism, and when we see an attack on an individual someone of any persuation, we issue warnings or corrections.  Also, membership is growing every month here. Thank you.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2004, 09:17:58 PM »

[I guess the Lord missed a few when He granted common sense & manners.

Indeed this is a forum which allows & relishes the bashing of others by its Orthodox members, wondered why membership is shrinking.]

You mean like non-Orthodox coming in and, because they don't like what a person is posting,  they make snide remarks and innuendos about his priest who wasn't part of it in any way, shape, or form?
Or attacking the forum moderators or the forum itself?

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
CatholicEagle
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


HH St.Pius X, Pope of Rome, Ecumenical Pontiff


« Reply #92 on: November 04, 2004, 09:33:17 PM »

[Orthodoc:
What Polish king gave this decree?[i know but i ain't telling].

If you know then why are you asking me?  But since you asked it was most probably King Sigmund-August II.Huh


[Orthodoc, you have to know something about Polish history.... Tke Polish King never gave out such rulings.. For this he would been killed]

The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia - by * Professor Dimitry Pospielovsky???
Huh
(*)  Dimitry Pospielovsky is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Western Ontario.  He is the author of The Russian Church Under The Soviet Regime, 1917-1982v (SVS Press, 1984) and is one of the foremost authorities on Russian Church History.

Page 93

The laity, the parish clergy, and particularly the brotherhoods refused to accept the union with Rome. The protest movement developed and spread quickly, joined at first by a single bishop, Gideon (Bolodan) of Lvov. The Polish King gave in to these pressures and authorized the convening of a local council of those bishops, clergy and laity of the Roman and Greek Church who accepted the papacy --i.e. those who did not accept the Unia were not invited.

The Council met in the city of Brest on October 6, 1596. In order to prevent a parallel Orthodox council in any of the numerious Orthodox Churches in the city, the now Uniate Metropolitan of Kiev sealed all Orthodox Churches on the day before the Council was to begin, except for the cathedral where the Council was to take place. The Orthodox, nevertheless, converged on Brest as well, with prince Ostrozhskii and his private army at the head. Failing to find an open church, and after waiting in vain for an invitation from the Uniates, they accepted an offer of a Protestant church school for a separate Orthodox Council. The Uniate Council passed a resolution excommunicating all the Orthodox clergy and laity participating in the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox in turn suspended all the clergy and lay participants in the Uniate Council and addressed a petition to the King, asking him to deprive "the traitors" of their dioceses and parishes. But the Polish King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15, LEGALIZED ONLY THOSE BYZANTINE RITE CHRISTIANS WHO JOINED THE UNIA; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL ITS CLERGY EXCOMMUNICATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.

Page 96

The Polish government could ill afford continuous persecutions of the Orthodox. A war with Turkey loomed on the horizon, and in 1621 the Cossacks presented an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all persecutions of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks.  In response, the 1623 Sejm declared toleration of the Orthodox Church and permitted the legitimization of Orthodox bishops and the restoration of their dioceses.

========

But the joy of the Orthodox was short-lived.  The legalization of the Orthodox Church resulted in mass return to Orthodoxy especially in Eastern Belorussia.  This resulted in mass attacks on Orthodox households  and Churches led by bishop Josaphat (Kuntsevish).  The citizens revolted which resulted in Josaphat's death.  

Roman Catholic revenge was immediate and brutal.  All Orthodox Churches were once again confiscated or closed.  Everywhere in the commonwealth the Orthodox lost the right not only to build but to  repair churches; Pope Urban VII proclaimed that any Roman Catholic who dared to oppose the use of the sword against the Orthodox would be excommunicated.

=======

Now, since we have gotten way of he original subject of this thread as well as the 'papal Catholic' issue, if you want to continue this open up a new thread.

Orthodoc
Since when is Poland Russia?
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2004, 09:48:08 PM »

Bob,

Where & what & who's priest are you talking about ? Show me where I mentioned your priest.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2004, 10:49:48 PM »

[Since when is Poland Russia?]

The area we are talking about was conquered by Poland and became part of the Polish empire in the 16th & 17th centuries.  Read your history.  The area where my grandparents came from is still under Polish rule.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2004, 10:54:15 PM »

[Where & what & who's priest are you talking about ? Show me where I mentioned your priest.]

Show me where I said it was you.

Read post #73 by Lemko Rusyn and then tell me what justification he has for bringing this up.  What does it have to do with the subject matter?  

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,739



« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2004, 12:02:52 AM »

Orthodoc,

I have no idea who Lemko is referring to or what prompted it, its appears you both do.

Now are you asking me if I would comment about your priest/spiritual advisor, very unlikely, I have 0 knowledge to reference.

james

Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
CatholicEagle
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


HH St.Pius X, Pope of Rome, Ecumenical Pontiff


« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2004, 01:23:57 AM »

[Since when is Poland Russia?]

The area we are talking about was conquered by Poland and became part of the Polish empire in the 16th & 17th centuries.  Read your history.  The area where my grandparents came from is still under Polish rule.

Orthodoc
Don't make me laugh!!!  Lithaunia/Rus and Poland were joined together in 1386 with the conversion of Jagiello.  Lwow was Polish in the late 1000's... Boleslaw Chrobry in early eleventh century ruled over Kijev... Where are you grandparents from?
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2004, 09:52:03 AM »

[Where are you grandparents from?]

Open up a new thread and I'll tell you.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2004, 10:04:04 AM »



[I have no idea who Lemko is referring to or what prompted it, its appears you both do.]



Neither do I. Since it has nothing to do with the subject matter.   I brought it up in response your accusing this form and the Orthodox Catholics in it of being rude and lacking manners etc.

I copied Lemko Rusyn's remarks about my priest whom I respect and admire very much.  We have a great relationship.  This is his response which is posted with his permission -

---------

Why does'nt "Lemko Rusyn" reveal himself?  Yes,I was baptized in a GC Church but not as a GC,but as a Christian. I have never benn ashamed of my upbringing in the GC Church. I have always honored,respected,and pray for my past Pastor,the late Fr.Theodore Ladomirsky.A fine man who was educated in Europe and I can still see him serving the DL. I always remembered him censing the whole temple before the Liturgy while the 3rd hour was being read....However,like so many GCs I learned the truth of my ancestry from history which told me that ALL GCs were Orthodox until the 16th century when forced to accept the Roman Rule. I then left the church of my birth and was accepted into the Church which was,and is, the Mother of the GC Church...My Aunts and Uncles in Jessup were very loving and caring and I would never speak disrespectfully of them. As a matter of fact they were very proud of their nephew who became a Priest. It didnt matter to them that I became an Orthodox Priest which was the Faith of my mother,maternal grandparents and Aunts and Uncles on my mothers side. As a matter of fact,my father left his GC Church and became Orthodox 3 years before I did...And he was  GC longer than me...naturally. And I will always remember my Russian School teacher Mr.Koch (Alexander) the day he asked all in the class what we wanted to be when we grew up,and I replied "A Priest". He asked me to stay after class,only to tell me that we was happy to hear that.  And then  he said "When you become a priest,become an Orthodox Priest." I still believe he said that because he somehow knew that in the future the GC Church would become more "latinized"....

----------

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,910


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2004, 10:15:00 AM »

Orthodoc,

Wow...

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,390


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2004, 11:14:26 AM »

Quote
[Where are you grandparents from?]

Open up a new thread and I'll tell you.

FYI, I already started a thread where one can describe one's ethnic heritage.
Logged

Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2004, 02:01:24 PM »

Yes, let's stick to the thread Serge opened, so we don't have a mulitplicity of threads of the same subject matter.

Anastasios
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2004, 04:04:52 PM »

>>>You mean like non-Orthodox coming in and, because they don't like what a person is posting,  they make snide remarks and innuendos about his priest who wasn't part of it in any way, shape, or form?

What snide remarks?  Just because I know the Geeza family is from such-and-such Uniat church in Jessup, Pa.?  You always bring up your pastor in the context of your slams against the "Unia".  You also highly esteem your pastor in many other postings.  So I was curious if perhaps your pastor was the source of your scorn.  I think what you posted above from him (which I didn't really read yet) answers my question.

No offense towards Father Geeza was intended!
Logged
Lemko Rusyn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Православно-католицька віра нашых вітців
Jurisdiction: Русиньска ґрекокатолицька церьков свого права
Posts: 118


Пресвятая Богородице Повчанская, спаси нас!


WWW
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2004, 04:29:44 PM »

>>>Yes,I was baptized in a GC Church but not as a GC,but as a Christian. I have never benn ashamed of my upbringing in the GC Church. I have always honored,respected,and pray for my past Pastor,the late Fr.Theodore Ladomirsky.A fine man who was educated in Europe and I can still see him serving the DL. I always remembered him censing the whole temple before the Liturgy while the 3rd hour was being read....


This is one of the more affectionate and charitable things I've read by a baptized-former GC.  Please thank Fr. Geeza for sharing these thoughts.

You know what, orthodoc?  Generations of Greek Catholics lived their whole lives completely happy being Greek Catholics, and that Church, and the life in Christ it gave them, was their joy and their treasure.  I'd even bet that most of them are in Heaven...   (And when it came time, some even chose to die for that Church, in the Name of Christ.)  Don't scorn or pity those people.  Emulate them!

They never had reason to seek the "return to the Orthodoxy" until others interfered: the RC hierarchy, the Austrians, the Soviets.  And here in the USA we have a different struggle: against the interference of our own leaders.
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2004, 04:57:39 PM »

[You always bring up your pastor in the context of your slams against the "Unia".]

That is an outright lie!  Give me just one example where I have brought up my Pastor in the context of what you call my slams against the "Unia".  Either here or elsewhere. I have never implicated him other to once again state the truth.  Which is that both he and his brother were former members of the Unia that converted to Orthodoxy and became Orthodox Catholic priests

[You also highly esteem your pastor in many other postings.]

Yes I do.  As I have stated, I have the deepest respect and admiration for him.  We have a great relationship as both Pastor/parishioner and friends.  I have benefited from the years he has been my pastor and learned a lot from him.  And I'm not ashamed to say it.

I also have a deep love not only for him but the entire parish and write about those relationships often because I'm proud of them and they mean a lot to me..

[So I was curious if perhaps your pastor was the source of your scorn.]

My Pastor has yet to chastize me for anything I write here or elsewhere.  A lot of which he reads.  Your explaination on why you brought him into this doesn't fly!

Orthodoc


Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,411


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2004, 05:13:39 PM »

Quote
Your explaination on why you brought him into this doesn't fly!

Actually, I think it does.  L-R asked a valid question, considering your pastor has GC relatives and he knows the esteem in which you hold him.  However, you answered the question.  Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2004, 06:16:51 PM »

Quote
Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

I agree with Schultz, let's put an end to this before it gets even more ridiculous.

Quote
I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.

A stupid German? I thought you were a Hell-screamin' and cussin' RC punk?  Tongue

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2004, 02:54:18 PM »

I haven't posted here for awhile, but this question of church naming really got me thinking.  Maybe we Western Orthodox should start calling ourselves "Catholics in Communion with Antioch".  Or perhaps, "Non-papal Catholics".  Or how about "Occidental Orthodox"?  After all, in the US, "Western" might conjure up the wrong images - cowboys, corrals, saloons, etc.  And as a Redskin fan I sure don't want to be associated with Cowboys.

James
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,411


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2004, 02:59:07 PM »

I actually like the phrase "Occidental Orthodox".  That's great!
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12,082


I'm back, Mom...miss Me?


WWW
« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2004, 09:11:45 PM »

I don't know where it was mentioned, but I believe someone in this thread brought up the fact that Hispanic Catholics will baptise and confirm before first communion, and the sense I got from that particular post was that these two sacraments were even done together at the same ceremony.  I had a friend who was baptised as an infant and confirmed at five, and communed at seven.  Are there really babies who get baptised and confirmed at the same time among the Roman Catholics?
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
CatholicEagle
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


HH St.Pius X, Pope of Rome, Ecumenical Pontiff


« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2004, 10:32:45 PM »

I don't know where it was mentioned, but I believe someone in this thread brought up the fact that Hispanic Catholics will baptise and confirm before first communion, and the sense I got from that particular post was that these two sacraments were even done together at the same ceremony.  I had a friend who was baptised as an infant and confirmed at five, and communed at seven.  Are there really babies who get baptised and confirmed at the same time among the Roman Catholics?  
Actually Pope Pius X allowed the First Holy Communion to be received before Confirmation. Up to then, it was like you said[baptism,age 0. confirmation,anytime a bishop comes during the child's childhood , and Holy COmmunion after.
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,457



WWW
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2004, 10:44:49 PM »

The current custom of confirming RC's as teenagers is a relatively modern one..it was not unusual for children to be confirmed (as CatholicEagle pointed out) whenever a bishop could visit certain parts of the diocese. This has become less common with the advent of modern travel by highway, train and air. But as recetly as the 1910's my grandmother was confirmed at age 5 since she lived in the rural part of a geographically spread out diocese and the bishop was only able to come every few years. This may still be the custom in some mission lands.
Up until the 70's in the Lutherans and Ep[iscopalians required members to be confirmed before receiving Communion; pedeo-communion is now very common in the Episcopal church, I'm not sure about the Lutherans.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2004, 07:00:02 PM »

Queen Elizabeth I was confirmed as an infant, but given her royal status and the religious changes taking place at that time, it is not clear whether that was the normative practice in late medieval England.

James
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2004, 11:37:51 PM »

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  

Plus your a Roman Catholic!  Grin Grin Grin

Aren't you supposed to be Lutheran?
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2004, 12:27:16 AM »

Actually, I think it does.  L-R asked a valid question, considering your pastor has GC relatives and he knows the esteem in which you hold him.  However, you answered the question.  Both of you should just let this peeing match end.

But what do I know?  I'm just a stupid German who doesn't understand these ridiculous ethnic squabbles amongst Christians.  



The very fact that you envision it as an ethnic squabble  attests to the fact that you are right.  You haven't the slightest clue.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,411


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2004, 11:47:44 AM »

Quote
Re:Schismatic "traditionalist" groups AKA Groups to avoid at ALL cost
-½ Reply #116 on: Wed, November 06, 2002, 11:23:22 AM -+  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Schultz:

From your last name I am assuming that you are neither what is called a 'cradle Orthodox' nor from a slavic back ground.  If I have this wrong I apologize to you.

To those of us who are Orthodox Catholic and from a slavic (some times Eastern Catholic) background these issues are much more than name calling.  In fact, they are sore spots because of the pain and confusion they inflicted upon our ancestors.


My dearest Bob,

My comment about my ethnicity refers to the first post you ever made concerning me, re-posted above for the benefit of your memory.  

Perhaps "squabbles" was not the right word.  Perhaps ethnic "concerns" is a better one, because your original post to me made it quite clear that I have no idea what's going on because I'm not a Slav and, hence, I can't understand the "pain and confusion" you and your other Slavic brethren go through.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.271 seconds with 144 queries.