Author Topic: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos  (Read 973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,932
There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« on: March 06, 2014, 05:26:21 AM »
http://www.romfea.gr/epikairotita/22699-2014-03-04-00-18-16

In "Greek" monasteries, prohibits any non-greek speaking monks if they go over 10% of the brotherhood
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,053
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 10:01:28 AM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 661
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 11:31:11 AM »
they should do that for the entire county ;D

Offline Geh

  • scum par excellence
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 11:48:34 AM »
It wouldn't be Orthodoxy without being embedded in a cultural ethos, much to its dismay.

Anyone wishing a religion to unroot itself from its ethnic ties misunderstands it. This notion of removing say Greek from the Orthodox cannot happen.
Quote from: Nikolaostheservant
tonight you die of a heart attack in your sleep. your at the pearly gates wanting to get in but you have not been very good nor have you been very bad, sin wise the scales are even. so to break the tie God asks you to explain this post you made, what u gona say?

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,421
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Bulgaria
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 11:54:18 AM »
It wouldn't be Orthodoxy without being embedded in a cultural ethos, much to its dismay.

Anyone wishing a religion to unroot itself from its ethnic ties misunderstands it. This notion of removing say Greek from the Orthodox cannot happen.

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Panos! :welcome:
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:54:40 AM by Alpo »

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 02:32:37 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

i don't know, i think it said in the article though that some monasteries already have more than 10% so they will not accept any more
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Orest

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,053
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 02:36:48 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

i don't know, i think it said in the article though that some monasteries already have more than 10% so they will not accept any more
So?  Why can't people just learn Greek?  Afterall if you are going to live in Greece , learn to speak Greek.  End of problem.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 02:42:36 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

i don't know, i think it said in the article though that some monasteries already have more than 10% so they will not accept any more
So?  Why can't people just learn Greek?  Afterall if you are going to live in Greece , learn to speak Greek.  End of problem.

How can you practice hesychasm, if you don't speak Greek?
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Ersaia

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 284
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 02:51:21 PM »
I am absolutely sure that this is not happen for the chinese orthodox monks
 ;D


Offline Ersaia

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 284
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 02:59:59 PM »
we can add

Nazi
Hitler
Bulgarians
Russia
Ukraine problem now
tha last visit of EP to Athos and what he said (someone ask me to translate it in an older post as I remember)

well we can add many things to this

as I said before chinese monks are welcome
 ;D



Offline Marc1152

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,223
  • Probiotic .. Antibiotic
  • Jurisdiction: Rocor
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2014, 03:03:54 PM »
I am absolutely sure that this is not happen for the chinese orthodox monks
 ;D



I know a Chinese Orthodox Monk..
Fine young man he is.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 05:33:14 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

i don't know, i think it said in the article though that some monasteries already have more than 10% so they will not accept any more
So?  Why can't people just learn Greek?  Afterall if you are going to live in Greece , learn to speak Greek.  End of problem.

the only possible problem is if they call the russian and other non greek monasteries "greek", i don't think all the monks in those monasteries should need to learn greek, but it does not seem that is the requirement, but i am not sure

I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 05:35:09 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.

i don't know, i think it said in the article though that some monasteries already have more than 10% so they will not accept any more
So?  Why can't people just learn Greek? 
Doric or Ionic?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 05:38:59 PM »
we can add

Nazi
Hitler
Bulgarians
Russia
Ukraine problem now
tha last visit of EP to Athos and what he said (someone ask me to translate it in an older post as I remember)

well we can add many things to this

as I said before chinese monks are welcome
 ;D




hey Irsaia will you translate this please  ;D

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/1625D38E.el.aspx

word for word!

oh this too!

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/2BD56C6F.el.aspx

just kidding :)
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 945
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 06:07:12 PM »
Seems stupid to me. There is nothing in the rite of monastic tonsure about a monk belonging to a specific people. I think that any monastery would be willing to tonsure anyone who is worthy of the monastic life, after passing through the novitiate. It might be difficult for non-Greeks to adapt to a place where everyone speaks Greek, but it can be done. Maybe we will see Chinese, Japanese, and Black monks on Athos.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 06:13:42 PM »
Maybe we will see Chinese, Japanese, and Black monks on Athos.
If you see the Black Monk, I won't be surprised.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 06:16:00 PM »
http://www.romfea.gr/epikairotita/22699-2014-03-04-00-18-16

In "Greek" monasteries, prohibits any non-greek speaking monks if they go over 10% of the brotherhood
Interesting end comment:
Quote
The question that remains is whether the issue brought up today by Romfea.gr will also come up at the gathering of Primates next Sunday at the Phanar from non-Greek speaking Primates.

The Phanar shows, like it did in 1872, that it comes to Phyletism the "Ecumenical" Patriarch is second to none.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2014, 06:16:00 PM »
So?  Why is this a problem?  Mt. Athos is in Greece and the article refers to "Greek-speaking monks" not ethnic Greeks.  One can always learn the language.
1) Technically, Mt. Athos is neither in the Hellenic Republic nor the Church of Greece.
2) Hellenization ignores the difference between "Greek-speaking" and "ethnic Greek," insisting on the former in producing the latter.
3) Mt. Athos derives its standing as the giant in the Orthodox world from the various nationalities having monasteries there, which in turn had a profound effect back home (e.g. the Hilandar monastery and the Churches of Serbia and of Bulgaria). 
4) If the Phanariots think this is going to extend their influence, they will just diminish the standing of Mt. Athos in the Orthodox world, to just another stronghold of Omogeneia, ignored by the "barbaroi" who will develop their already established centers back home.
5) and yet another area of Orthodox solidarity will bite the dust.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2014, 06:16:00 PM »
It wouldn't be Orthodoxy without being embedded in a cultural ethos, much to its dismay.

Anyone wishing a religion to unroot itself from its ethnic ties misunderstands it. This notion of removing say Greek from the Orthodox cannot happen.
The non-Greek Orthodox outnumber the Greeks, and always have, ever since a barbaros Christ founded His Church on His barbaroi Apostles.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Jole

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 09:43:25 PM »
Is it christian to choose on a linguistic criterion?

Offline Nikolaostheservant

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 661
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2014, 11:22:12 PM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,008
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 11:24:16 PM »
Maybe they were just having too many issues with people not able to say 'please pass the salt'


Online Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,852
  • Believed on in the world, received up in glory.
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 11:36:47 PM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?

Obviously it's not "just a language" if it's gotten you this excited.  And if it's "just a language" when it comes to the non-Greek speaking minority, it should also be "just a language" when it comes to the Greek speaking majority--it shouldn't be an issue one way or the other.  Yet, it seems there is a restriction being imposed in a particular direction. 

This interested me (I don't understand modern Greek, so pardon the Google): 

Quote
Essentially, said in Romfea.gr the same sources, the Ecumenical Patriarchate prohibits future egkataviosi foreign monks on Mount Athos, since the rate of foreign monks are already more than 10% of the total.

...

"If all this is true," they said, "then challenged the centuries-old ecumenical character of the Holy Mountain, where they live harmoniously Greeks, Serbs, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians and monks throughout the world. Even the Prime Minister in his last visit mentioned with admiration in the presence of Chinese monk on Mount Athos monastery."

So is it really just a move to ensure that everyone speaks the same language in a place where speaking is, by rule, severely curtailed?  Or is there something else going on? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 12:48:11 AM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?
Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing.

Btw, do tell Met. Sotirios-he requires his priests in Canada to speak Greek.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Nikolaostheservant

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 661
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 01:27:54 AM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?

Obviously it's not "just a language" if it's gotten you this excited.  And if it's "just a language" when it comes to the non-Greek speaking minority, it should also be "just a language" when it comes to the Greek speaking majority--it shouldn't be an issue one way or the other.  Yet, it seems there is a restriction being imposed in a particular direction. 

This interested me (I don't understand modern Greek, so pardon the Google): 

Quote
Essentially, said in Romfea.gr the same sources, the Ecumenical Patriarchate prohibits future egkataviosi foreign monks on Mount Athos, since the rate of foreign monks are already more than 10% of the total.

...

"If all this is true," they said, "then challenged the centuries-old ecumenical character of the Holy Mountain, where they live harmoniously Greeks, Serbs, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians and monks throughout the world. Even the Prime Minister in his last visit mentioned with admiration in the presence of Chinese monk on Mount Athos monastery."

So is it really just a move to ensure that everyone speaks the same language in a place where speaking is, by rule, severely curtailed?  Or is there something else going on? 

Mor Ephrem, im not excited at all abt this, why do you say that?! You guys are the ones overly excited, debating the minute nuances of a simple thing!

My point is so simple~~~when in another country, speek its language, if your staying there for a while. I would not move to tibet and not speek or make an effort to learn the language. If mt athos was russian i would try my darn hardest to learn russian, even if just to visit but definitly if i wanted to becom a monk. Things like this should not even be neesessary to be said. its common human behavior to learn the language.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 661
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 01:32:11 AM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?
Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing.

Btw, do tell Met. Sotirios-he requires his priests in Canada to speak Greek.

I think in your hast to be nasty, you miss the point here.
WHY in heaven would he require them to speek greek~~~~they are in C A N A D A!
I would assume if anything he would require them to speek french canadian?

I dont understand what this means
"Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing."
but it sounds to me like an ignorant statement.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 01:35:27 AM by Nikolaostheservant »

Offline Ersaia

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 284
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 04:08:38 PM »
"Ενδεικτική του πως αντιμετωπίζει την κατάσταση η Εκκλησία της Ρωσίας ήταν η φράση του Πατριάρχη κ. Κυρίλλου ο οποίος αφού ζήτησε από τους υπόλοιπους Προκαθημένους να μην τον παρεξηγήσουν, σημείωσε πως στην Εκκλησία της Ρωσίας «πρώτα είμαστε για το Έθνος» ξεκαθαρίζοντας με τον πλέον σαφή τρόπο πως η Μόσχα κινείται με καθαρά εθνικά κριτήρια."
http://www.dogma.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=5548&catid=1

mama Russia
:P

10% is a very good percentage

Offline Ersaia

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 284
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2014, 04:16:38 PM »
from what I read until now
it was like Fight Club

  :-\

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2014, 02:32:00 AM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?
Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing.

Btw, do tell Met. Sotirios-he requires his priests in Canada to speak Greek.

I think in your hast to be nasty, you miss the point here.
WHY in heaven would he require them to speek greek~~~~they are in C A N A D A!
I would assume if anything he would require them to speek french canadian?
No, HE requires them to serve in Greek.  His words, not mine.
I dont understand what this means
"Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing."
but it sounds to me like an ignorant statement.
then your hearing should be checked.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Re: There is to be a limit on foreign monks on Mount Athos
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 02:32:00 AM »
wow, you people can dbate everything to death. If you all were in charge of anything...nothing would ever get done!

its just a language, they did not ask you cut your right #$%$# off to join.

in general, if i move into a country speaking another language, i will try to learn that language, wouldent you?
Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing.

Btw, do tell Met. Sotirios-he requires his priests in Canada to speak Greek.

I think in your hast to be nasty, you miss the point here.
WHY in heaven would he require them to speek greek~~~~they are in C A N A D A!
I would assume if anything he would require them to speek french canadian?

I dont understand what this means
"Then we can drop the pretense that Mt. Athos is a Pan-Orthodox institution, and the 90+% of Orthodox can dismiss it as a quaint Greek thing."
but it sounds to me like an ignorant statement.
Quote
"This statement (if the information regarding the message of the Patriarchate of Constantinople is confirmed) casts doubt on the universal nature of Holy Mount Athos, where for over 1000 years, Greeks, Serbs, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, and monks from all over the world have coexisted together harmoniously. The Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, during his recent visit, was astonished when he saw a Chinese monk in one of the Athonite monasteries."
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/69025.htm
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth