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Author Topic: Gay Pride in Belgrade  (Read 6325 times) Average Rating: 5
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age234
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« Reply #180 on: May 26, 2012, 10:57:37 AM »

And is it right to justify people's sins, or enable them to destroy themselves?

If someone feels that speaking out is judgmental, then say nothing. But to actually defend the sinful actions of others is most disquieting. Encouraging or enabling others to sin is itself a sin, I am told, and is certainly not loving.
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« Reply #181 on: May 26, 2012, 11:24:44 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.
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« Reply #182 on: May 26, 2012, 11:43:12 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.
That wouldn't even fly in the US, let alone in Serbia, which has a history of Church-State symphonia.
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« Reply #183 on: May 26, 2012, 12:38:42 PM »

From the linked article:

 "By and large, people come to Up Your Alley to enjoy a sense of local leather community. There are opportunities for people to enjoy themselves at the fair in many other ways, including hanging out with friends, having a drink, or watching a flogging session."

Well, thank goodness there are family friendly activities like these going on along with the public sex acts...


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Every year the same problems recur on the outer part of Cape Cod near Provincetown in my home of Massachusetts. Families venture out on the sand dunes and are scandalized by the sight of gay orgies and other activities. The police get many complaints, and every year tell the newspapers that they intend to crack down on the activity, yet nothing seems to get done.

It's mean to interfere with all that "pride", I guess.
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« Reply #184 on: May 26, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.
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« Reply #185 on: May 26, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.

Quote
So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want? 

Yes, you can. It's happening. And it's not going away. Suck it up.
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« Reply #186 on: May 26, 2012, 03:41:29 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.

Quote
So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want? 

Yes, you can. It's happening. And it's not going away. Suck it up.

If only this was true . . .
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« Reply #187 on: May 26, 2012, 03:52:46 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Then that says more about those who are offended by homosexuals by not by gluttons; the Church teaches that those engaged in homosexual sex are engaging in sin, it also teaches that gluttons are engaging in sin.  Why should you be offended by one person's sin but not another?

Human beings have pride, and because of that we are all sinners.  There are sins though that are considered more severe by the Church.  If a person isn't willing to acknowledge what they are doing is a sin, then how can they repent for it, and if they don't repent, then how can God forgive them?  Wouldn't they be sinning against the Holy Spirit?   Huh

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« Reply #188 on: May 26, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

We don't have absolute freedom though. As George Washington wisely observed, such freedom is only good for a moral and religious people, because they will self-govern.

When that goes out the window, society can curtail the freedom of people to engage in activities it deems to be wrong. That goes for Serbians and Americans alike.

But as I said, if we as individual Orthodox Christians don't want to do that, we should say nothing at all. To encourage people in their sin is itself a sin. We should not give comfort to them in their sin, but show them and beckon them to a better way of life, one that exalts their humanity rather than degrades it.
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« Reply #189 on: May 26, 2012, 04:26:56 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Then that says more about those who are offended by homosexuals by not by gluttons; the Church teaches that those engaged in homosexual sex are engaging in sin, it also teaches that gluttons are engaging in sin.  Why should you be offended by one person's sin but not another?

Human beings have pride, and because of that we are all sinners.  There are sins though that are considered more severe by the Church.  If a person isn't willing to acknowledge what they are doing is a sin, then how can they repent for it, and if they don't repent, then how can God forgive them?  Wouldn't they be sinning against the Holy Spirit?   Huh

So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 

There is actually a parallel involving parades to another issue.  I absolutely abhor the May 9th Victory Day parades.  I find them deeply offensive on both a personal and societal level.  There are some here that are trying to use fiat and governmental force to ban them (more under the previous adminstsation than now).  I don't agree with that tactic.  I personally refuse to participate, and if someone honestly asks me why I didn't go to the parade or how I feel I would tell them.  Otherwise just ignore it.  Just ignore it and stop acting shocked and feigning outrage.  Eventually they'll get bored. 
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« Reply #190 on: May 27, 2012, 12:23:57 AM »

Quote
So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.
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« Reply #191 on: May 27, 2012, 01:09:57 AM »

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So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.

And there is close to a 0% chance of a priest in the US preaching that from the pulpit.  One must please the crowds in order to make a paycheck. 
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« Reply #192 on: May 27, 2012, 02:47:04 AM »

Really? Because if I asked my priest I would guarantee you he would say the same thing.

Why are there so many Orthodox-hating Orthodox cynics on this board?
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« Reply #193 on: May 27, 2012, 02:48:44 AM »

Really? Because if I asked my priest I would guarantee you he would say the same thing.

Why are there so many Orthodox-hating Orthodox cynics on this board?

Stick around long enough and you might become one.
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« Reply #194 on: May 27, 2012, 02:50:51 AM »

I remember attending a speaking by Fr. Joseph Huneycutt in which he joked about how Orthodox forums drain the soul out of you and that he refuses to look at them now. Perhaps his advice is worth following...
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« Reply #195 on: May 27, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »

I remember attending a speaking by Fr. Joseph Huneycutt in which he joked about how Orthodox forums drain the soul out of you and that he refuses to look at them now. Perhaps his advice is worth following...

Soul draining clogged this forum.
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« Reply #196 on: May 27, 2012, 03:17:51 AM »

Reminds me of when our baptismal font got backed up. Black murky water filled the bottom of it, and a fellow altar boy told Father that it was people's washed-away sins.  laugh
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« Reply #197 on: May 27, 2012, 04:37:09 AM »

Really? Because if I asked my priest I would guarantee you he would say the same thing.

Why are there so many Orthodox-hating Orthodox cynics on this board?

That's good that your priest would say as much, but I've - in the short time I've been attending Orthodox parishes - heard probably seven or eight sermons (keep in mind I've normally only been able to get to a parish every two weeks, and have been going for only a year) that mentioned the gay agenda and how evil homosexuality would destroy traditional marriage; I've never heard pre-marital sex mentioned in a sermon, except perhaps in passing (I don't recall every hearing it, but it is possible it was mentioned in passing), nor have I ever heard oral sex involving a married couple mentioned (and I really, really don't think I've even heard this mentioned in passing). 
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« Reply #198 on: May 27, 2012, 02:40:16 PM »

in the short time I've been attending Orthodox parishes - heard probably seven or eight sermons (keep in mind I've normally only been able to get to a parish every two weeks, and have been going for only a year) that mentioned the gay agenda and how evil homosexuality would destroy traditional marriage I really, really don't think I've even heard this mentioned in passing). 

I am glad the sermons I hear usually are about the gospel.
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« Reply #199 on: May 27, 2012, 02:43:12 PM »

Reminds me of when our baptismal font got backed up. Black murky water filled the bottom of it, and a fellow altar boy told Father that it was people's washed-away sins.  laugh

 Shocked

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« Reply #200 on: May 27, 2012, 03:42:19 PM »

For what it's worth, I've never heard a sermon about homosexuality. It came up in catechumenate classes about marriage (as did perverted sexual practices), but I've yet to hear an overtly political sermon, aside from a call to have our voting be informed by the Church's teachings.

And there is close to a 0% chance of a priest in the US preaching that from the pulpit.  One must please the crowds in order to make a paycheck. 

Doesn't that assume a large majority of married Orthodox couples engage in that kind of behavior? I haven't conducted any polls, but when the issue has randomly come up in conversation, people have said it's disgusting.

Surely there are plenty of perverts out there who do it, but it doesn't seem to be considered normal or right.
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« Reply #201 on: May 27, 2012, 03:51:03 PM »

I remember attending a speaking by Fr. Joseph Huneycutt in which he joked about how Orthodox forums drain the soul out of you and that he refuses to look at them now. Perhaps his advice is worth following...

Welcome to the Brood of Vipers, I mean, the Orthodox Christian Forum. Someone should really warn us to flee from the wrath to come...
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« Reply #202 on: May 27, 2012, 03:53:31 PM »

in the short time I've been attending Orthodox parishes - heard probably seven or eight sermons (keep in mind I've normally only been able to get to a parish every two weeks, and have been going for only a year) that mentioned the gay agenda and how evil homosexuality would destroy traditional marriage I really, really don't think I've even heard this mentioned in passing). 

I am glad the sermons I hear usually are about the gospel.

Me too. If more people believed in the Gospel and loved Christ, there would be less sin in general.
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« Reply #203 on: May 28, 2012, 02:33:53 AM »

I've never heard a sermon focus on homosexuality, and if it was mentioned, it was only in passing, grouped together with the other sexual immorality taking over our lives.

Is it really that much of an affront that its preached about? Its wrong. So what?
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« Reply #204 on: May 28, 2012, 09:38:00 AM »

I've never heard a sermon focus on homosexuality, and if it was mentioned, it was only in passing, grouped together with the other sexual immorality taking over our lives.

Is it really that much of an affront that its preached about? Its wrong. So what?

I have heard several sermons that mentioned homosexuality, but nearly always within the context of other sins, incluing adultery and fornication.  I don't recall ever hearing a sermon focus only on homosexuality.  I have never heard it defended in a sermon, at least not in an Orthodox Church . . . yet.
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« Reply #205 on: May 28, 2012, 06:01:32 PM »

Doesn't that assume a large majority of married Orthodox couples engage in that kind of behavior? I haven't conducted any polls, but when the issue has randomly come up in conversation, people have said it's disgusting.

Surely there are plenty of perverts out there who do it, but it doesn't seem to be considered normal or right.
I am not sure about the US, but in Europe, oral sex between married couples is quite common and I do not know anyone who would think of that as immoral, with the possible exception of fundamentalist Protestant fringe groups.
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« Reply #206 on: May 28, 2012, 06:25:00 PM »

Doesn't that assume a large majority of married Orthodox couples engage in that kind of behavior? I haven't conducted any polls, but when the issue has randomly come up in conversation, people have said it's disgusting.

Surely there are plenty of perverts out there who do it, but it doesn't seem to be considered normal or right.
I am not sure about the US, but in Europe, oral sex between married couples is quite common and I do not know anyone who would think of that as immoral, with the possible exception of fundamentalist Protestant fringe groups.

In American culture, oral sex is likewise not considered immoral, at least by the vast majority of people.
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« Reply #207 on: May 29, 2012, 10:01:37 AM »

Doesn't that assume a large majority of married Orthodox couples engage in that kind of behavior? I haven't conducted any polls, but when the issue has randomly come up in conversation, people have said it's disgusting.

Surely there are plenty of perverts out there who do it, but it doesn't seem to be considered normal or right.
I am not sure about the US, but in Europe, oral sex between married couples is quite common and I do not know anyone who would think of that as immoral, with the possible exception of fundamentalist Protestant fringe groups.

In American culture, oral sex is likewise not considered immoral, at least by the vast majority of people.

I don't know if either of you are implying, by such responses, that this dominant opinion should be the "pastoral" accepted one of the Orthodox Church, but if it is, then any one holding this view has no grounds whatever (in my view) to at least publically state an opposition to homosexual relationships (inclusive of the sexual stuff they do.)  How self-serving it is to think that any sex act done within the confines of heterosexual marriage is fair game as long as both partners desire it (although I personally think more straight men than women might desire anal sex, among the respectable marrieds - no evidence though.)  Consensual OK-ness is the basis of any and all gay sex, I think.  From here it would be easy for a heterosexual married couple to work out an arrangement for a swinging marriage, a threesome, or what more I don't know, but the affirming trends in the secular world first mirrored and later argued for in the Church world (by laypeople anyway) is greatly disturbing.  If it makes me a fundamentalist Protestant fringe sectarian (basically I already am, just not attending any church) then all is good as is, I guess.

I am a very embittered and somewhat conflicted re-repressed homosexual, yes.  While it is the moral high road for me and any one in the LGBTQ milieu to deny ourselves, it appears the moral high road for a married couple to work past whatever outmoded and over-scrupulous, bedroom-invasive teachings of celibate Church Fathers that exist.  No church except the Old Order Anabaptists teach the kind of hyper-moralistic well-roundedness I would like to see in 'the Church' - granting that the strict teachings taken all together are 'hyper moralistic', puritanical and whatever, but at least they are an all-inclusive package, and don't allow really any one to feel good in their sins.
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« Reply #208 on: May 29, 2012, 10:08:32 AM »

Doesn't that assume a large majority of married Orthodox couples engage in that kind of behavior? I haven't conducted any polls, but when the issue has randomly come up in conversation, people have said it's disgusting.

Surely there are plenty of perverts out there who do it, but it doesn't seem to be considered normal or right.
I am not sure about the US, but in Europe, oral sex between married couples is quite common and I do not know anyone who would think of that as immoral, with the possible exception of fundamentalist Protestant fringe groups.

In American culture, oral sex is likewise not considered immoral, at least by the vast majority of people.

I don't know if either of you are implying, by such responses, that this dominant opinion should be the "pastoral" accepted one of the Orthodox Church, but if it is, then any one holding this view has no grounds whatever (in my view) to at least publically state an opposition to homosexual relationships (inclusive of the sexual stuff they do.)  How self-serving it is to think that any sex act done within the confines of heterosexual marriage is fair game as long as both partners desire it (although I personally think more straight men than women might desire anal sex, among the respectable marrieds - no evidence though.)  Consensual OK-ness is the basis of any and all gay sex, I think.  From here it would be easy for a heterosexual married couple to work out an arrangement for a swinging marriage, a threesome, or what more I don't know, but the affirming trends in the secular world first mirrored and later argued for in the Church world (by laypeople anyway) is greatly disturbing.  If it makes me a fundamentalist Protestant fringe sectarian (basically I already am, just not attending any church) then all is good as is, I guess.

I am a very embittered and somewhat conflicted re-repressed homosexual, yes.  While it is the moral high road for me and any one in the LGBTQ milieu to deny ourselves, it appears the moral high road for a married couple to work past whatever outmoded and over-scrupulous, bedroom-invasive teachings of celibate Church Fathers that exist.  No church except the Old Order Anabaptists teach the kind of hyper-moralistic well-roundedness I would like to see in 'the Church' - granting that the strict teachings taken all together are 'hyper moralistic', puritanical and whatever, but at least they are an all-inclusive package, and don't allow really any one to feel good in their sins.

Actually, Fr. Thomas Hopko, in a talk on homosexuality did in fact point out that anything other than vaginal intercourse, even within a marriage, is a sin; it is just far less a promoted idea within Orthodoxy than the condemnation of homosexuality.
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« Reply #209 on: May 29, 2012, 10:22:11 AM »

Quote
So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.
LOL. "Sodomy" didn't enter Orthodox parlance until Czar Peter, in imitation of all things Latin, put it there.  And even then, it refers to homosexuality (in German it means bestiality).  There are earlier references to homosexuality in connection with Sodom's damnation, but the term doesn't come into use until the 11th century, in the West.

As to oral sex, those Orthodox sources which class it as a sin put French kissing in the same class.
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« Reply #210 on: May 29, 2012, 10:25:12 AM »

Quote
So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.

And there is close to a 0% chance of a priest in the US preaching that from the pulpit.  One must please the crowds in order to make a paycheck. 
Wrong again.  I've heard several priests preaching in the US against that from the pulpit. For instance, a favorite, Fr. Josiah Trenham:
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Anal and oral intercourse, as well as the use of pornography and sexual toys, are sexual perversions and are always sinful, even for married Christians.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/TrenhamSexuality.php
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« Reply #211 on: May 29, 2012, 10:26:59 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.

Quote
So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want? 

Yes, you can. It's happening. And it's not going away. Suck it up.
was that deliberate?
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« Reply #212 on: May 29, 2012, 08:44:57 PM »

Quote
LOL. "Sodomy" didn't enter Orthodox parlance until Czar Peter, in imitation of all things Latin, put it there.  And even then, it refers to homosexuality (in German it means bestiality).  There are earlier references to homosexuality in connection with Sodom's damnation, but the term doesn't come into use until the 11th century, in the West.
I apologized for not being so well versed. It doesn't matter what its called, it is sinful.

I'll admit, you have me a tad bit confused. You say that Orthodox who view oral sex as sin also classify french kissing as sin. Now, a lot is lost over the internet, but it seemed to me that you disagreed with viewing oral sex as sinful when you used that comparison. Do you view french kissing as a sin? Fr. Josiah clearly thinks oral sex is a sin.

I guess I just don't see why me using the word "sodomy" was so "LOL" worthy. It was vocabulary. The meaning remains the same.
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« Reply #213 on: May 29, 2012, 08:54:07 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We spontaneously discussed this related issue in my high school level Sunday School class this past Sunday. Moral of the story we came with..

 Kids sure got a lot of heart Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #214 on: May 29, 2012, 09:23:27 PM »

Quote
LOL. "Sodomy" didn't enter Orthodox parlance until Czar Peter, in imitation of all things Latin, put it there.  And even then, it refers to homosexuality (in German it means bestiality).  There are earlier references to homosexuality in connection with Sodom's damnation, but the term doesn't come into use until the 11th century, in the West.
I apologized for not being so well versed. It doesn't matter what its called, it is sinful.

I'll admit, you have me a tad bit confused. You say that Orthodox who view oral sex as sin also classify french kissing as sin. Now, a lot is lost over the internet, but it seemed to me that you disagreed with viewing oral sex as sinful when you used that comparison. Do you view french kissing as a sin? Fr. Josiah clearly thinks oral sex is a sin.

I guess I just don't see why me using the word "sodomy" was so "LOL" worthy. It was vocabulary. The meaning remains the same.
not exactly: it comes with baggage.

I said that the material that some Orthodox depend on to justify their views on oral sex, said material also condemns french kissing.

I can quite easily accurately state the opinions of others while disagreeing with them.  I disagree with Fr. Josiah.

No, I don't view french kissing as a sin-depending on with whom.  Nor, for that matter, oral sex.

Nektarios attempted to dismiss Orthodox morality in general by claiming that no Orthodox priest would not preach the truth as he sees it and risk his paycheck.  Whatever else his faults, Fr. Trenham is not for hire.
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« Reply #215 on: May 30, 2012, 01:12:36 AM »

Nektarios attempted to dismiss Orthodox morality in general by claiming that no Orthodox priest would not preach the truth as he sees it and risk his paycheck.  Whatever else his faults, Fr. Trenham is not for hire.

I used a bit of hyperbole, but in general my point still stands.  IME in the US few priests made a big deal of a uncomfortable sins that are in all probability pretty widespread.  Instead they went for the crowd pleasers. 
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« Reply #216 on: May 30, 2012, 01:22:10 AM »

Pardon me, but how does this situation with priests in the USA in any way affect or change the consistent church teaching against homosexuality? Should we have to mandate that no one ever french kiss or have oral sex with their spouse before we can say anything against homosexuality? Clearly the examples of certain saints (St. Moses the Strong, for instance) and even Apostles (St. Peter's seeming ambivalence towards the judaizers) show us that we needn't be perfect ourselves in order to recognize and preach what is right.
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« Reply #217 on: May 30, 2012, 01:43:48 AM »

we needn't be perfect ourselves in order to recognize and preach what is right.

Or, in the words of Phil Collins: "just do as I say, don't do as I do."
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« Reply #218 on: May 30, 2012, 01:55:30 AM »

Sure, why not. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #219 on: May 30, 2012, 03:13:23 AM »

Sure, why not. Roll Eyes

Because it's not very convincing?
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« Reply #220 on: May 30, 2012, 03:53:36 AM »

Alright. Truthfully I don't even care about this enough to argue, I'm just trying to state a general principle whereby we do not need to be perfect to know what is right and wrong. For instance, I may have problems keeping a strict fast sometimes, but it doesn't really keep me from being against abortion or blasphemy or what have you. Similarly, I'd say if you're having sexual relations with your wife or husband in a way that Fr. Josiah or others might have a problem with, that can be dealt with without keeping you from holding to your convictions that homosexuality is wrong. It should be obvious, but the dissenters in this thread might do well to remember that heterosexual and homosexual relations are not considered in the same light in Christianity, in so far as one may be sinful (depending), while the other always is.
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« Reply #221 on: May 30, 2012, 04:11:03 AM »

It is morally bankrupt to constantly harp on one sin that is entirely inapplicable to you when other equally serious matters can easily be swept under the rug when they personally apply to you. 
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« Reply #222 on: May 30, 2012, 04:56:23 AM »

I've thankfully missed the constant harping, or even the occasional harping (homosexuality is virtually a non-issue among the people at my church, so I've never heard it mentioned by our clergy or 99.9% of the laity)...unless of course you are referring to this thread, which can hardly be considered harping when it is after all the subject of the OP. Anyway, I agree with you on this level, Nektarios, and would not suggest otherwise. My point was, once again, a general principle. There is of course the famous and very laudable story of Gandhi giving up sugar so that he could advise another not to consume it, but a source much closer to us (which I have seen most often as St. Augustine, but I believe predates him in writings of another saint who I can't remember) has put it better as "Right is right even nobody is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it". This takes one's personal sinlessness/sinfulness or that of the other entirely out of the equation, which after all is what I would think you would want to do if you want avoid the moral bankruptcy of the situation you describe. As cliche as it is, it really is a matter of condemning the sin, not the sinner. If others do not always get that distinction (and I've probably fallen short of it in this thread, at least in some people's eyes if not my own), that does not mean that the distinction is not to be respected.
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« Reply #223 on: May 30, 2012, 07:54:33 AM »

It is morally bankrupt to constantly harp on one sin that is entirely inapplicable to you when other equally serious matters can easily be swept under the rug when they personally apply to you. 
So I should drop my objection to murder then.
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« Reply #224 on: May 30, 2012, 08:33:20 AM »

It is morally bankrupt to constantly harp on one sin that is entirely inapplicable to you when other equally serious matters can easily be swept under the rug when they personally apply to you. 
So I should drop my objection to murder then.

Good God. Here we go again...
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