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Author Topic: Gay Pride in Belgrade  (Read 6124 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2012, 09:06:07 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2012, 09:08:55 PM »

Yeah, it does say you can't be proud of being gay and Serbian. That's exactly what it says.

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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2012, 09:17:47 PM »

Re-read what I wrote, please.

Quote from: me
It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles.

Unless you want to argue that the only way for gay people to be proud is to have a big parade to announce to the world that they are gay, then I don't see how not letting them have such a parade would rob them of the right to be proud of who they are. I mean...I'm proud that I aced all of my classes this year, but I'm not having a parade over it. And I'm certainly not having a parade over what I prefer to do in bed, or who I prefer to do it with.
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« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2012, 09:36:42 PM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?

People are traveling to your city fo rthe express purpose of being cruel to the widows and orphans in your midst? How odd.

These homosexuals do not live in Serbia, and they know that their lifestyle is offensive to the Serbian people, and yet they insist on imposing it on them.  Wouldn't  that be going against the rights of the Serbian people?

 That these 'gay rights' group insist on imposing themselves on the rights of others and in such a flagrant way, gives a reflection of who and what they are....or rather who or what is really guiding them.  Angry
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« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2012, 09:41:30 PM »

They are citizens of their country. Do we take away freedom of assembly from people we don't like?

If they're actually committing sex acts in the streets, yes, stop them. But if they want to wear ugly clothes and dance on top of a truck that's loaded with flowers, this is not the same.

Sorry, but heterosexuals commit sin, too. What are you doing to stop them? As I said, I wasn't aware you could get into Heaven just for being straight.

I'm sure nothing is going to impress gay people more than Orthodox Christians calling them perverts and chasing them down the streets and chucking beer bottles at them.
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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2012, 09:57:36 PM »

If freedom of assembly is an absolute right, then why did the student activist hippies get removed from the campus of the University of New Mexico here in Albuquerque a few months ago during that whole "occupy/unoccupy everything" hoopla, and again when they tried to mess up Nonie Darwish's talk on Israeli involvement in the Arab Spring uprisings? Because it turns out your absolute right to congregate wherever you'd like to do whatever you'd like so long as it does not involve physical violence or public sex is, um...not actually absolute at all. And those are two examples from America, which takes this whole "freedom of assembly" thing pretty seriously. I don't know about laws governing assembly in Serbia, but that's okay, because you probably don't either.

The point is if the majority of Belgrade citizens have a problem with it, and bring their objection to the appropriate city governing bodies or whatever, why shouldn't they be allowed to say "please have your parade somewhere else"? Far from violating a peoples' freedom, that's an assertion of the peoples' freedom: The freedom of the Serbian people to demand that their local government be responsive to their concerns and sensitive to their sensibilities. We did nothing less than that here in America in my home state of California when we gathered together Catholics, Mormons, and other social conservatives to pass Proposition 8, which defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman. But of course the homosexual lobby isn't really about freedom in any sort of democratic sense, but about getting their political agenda enforced throughout the land, and to hell with the people who disagree with it, even if they are the majority. I don't know why homosexual activists in Serbia would be any different.

And spare me all this "heterosexuals commit sin, too", "you can get into heaven just by being straight", and "chasing them down the streets chucking beer bottles at them" crap. Nobody is talking about any of that but you, and I'm not taking the bait, so quit trying to deflect attention onto other issues.
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2012, 10:51:49 PM »

Bottom line:

Gay parade is redundant.
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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2012, 11:22:33 PM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2012, 11:36:57 PM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.

Don't spend much time with gay folk do you?
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2012, 11:50:36 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2012, 11:55:27 PM »

They are citizens of their country. Do we take away freedom of assembly from people we don't like?
I didn't know you were Serbian.
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
actually, no.
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2012, 11:59:12 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
actually, no.

After you posted this, I edited my post as I realized I left out a word.
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2012, 12:02:54 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2012, 12:11:19 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2012, 12:16:12 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2012, 12:18:30 AM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.

Don't spend much time with gay folk do you?
I don't.
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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2012, 12:19:43 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2012, 12:22:27 AM »

I really miss the moratorium on the gay stuff. It's just cumbersome around here.
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2012, 12:29:26 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2012, 12:55:33 AM »

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?

I can't believe I'm having to write things like this, but there are very big differences between an eating contest and a gay pride parade. For one, things like gay pride parades are predicated on a sociopolitical outlook that sees homosexuality as a legitimate alternative to God-instituted marriage and categories of sex and gender. This has no equivalent in your pie-eating contest example, as obviously the pie-eaters know that they are overeating; that's kind of the point. Yes, it's gross and dumb (and cruel and shameless, given the millions who are starving around the world while Americans and Japanese stuff themselves silly with hotdogs for money), no I don't support it, but to pretend that there is a legitimate challenge to Christianity there is stretching things just a little bit.  Roll Eyes They aren't trying to legitimize their hobby or whatever as being on equal footing as regular eating, nor trying to teach children that overeating is natural and good, nor trying to criminalize people who would advocate healthy eating instead. So there really is no comparison beyond the overly simplistic "they're both sins, aren't they?" level.

When "eating contest activists" try to force us to support their activities and try to criminalize the expression of views that don't agree with their lifestyle, and use their political muscle to strike down legitimately-passed legislation that denies their warped view of proper eating is, then you will have a fair comparison to make. Meanwhile, back in the real world, what you see in the law code regulating eating is more often the "sin tax" (an ironic label, in the context of this discussion) on things deemed harmful such as candy, tobacco, alcohol, etc. So the message is clear from the world: Gayness isn't a sin (in direct contradiction to the teachings of all Apostolic Churches and the Holy Bible) and should be celebrated, but God help you if you want to buy a candy bar without being shamed for it, ya big fatty.

I think I'm going to go eat a brownie. Take that, Big Brother.
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2012, 12:58:57 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 

Please see reply 50, paragraph 2, word 4 for more on what I do and don't assume about Serbia. You'll find there a very useful conjunction named if, used to introduce a conditional statement.
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2012, 01:10:04 AM »

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?

I can't believe I'm having to write things like this, but there are very big differences between an eating contest and a gay pride parade. For one, things like gay pride parades are predicated on a sociopolitical outlook that sees homosexuality as a legitimate alternative to God-instituted marriage and categories of sex and gender. This has no equivalent in your pie-eating contest example, as obviously the pie-eaters know that they are overeating; that's kind of the point. Yes, it's gross and dumb (and cruel and shameless, given the millions who are starving around the world while Americans and Japanese stuff themselves silly with hotdogs for money), no I don't support it, but to pretend that there is a legitimate challenge to Christianity there is stretching things just a little bit.  Roll Eyes They aren't trying to legitimize their hobby or whatever as being on equal footing as regular eating, nor trying to teach children that overeating is natural and good, nor trying to criminalize people who would advocate healthy eating instead. So there really is no comparison beyond the overly simplistic "they're both sins, aren't they?" level.

When "eating contest activists" try to force us to support their activities and try to criminalize the expression of views that don't agree with their lifestyle, and use their political muscle to strike down legitimately-passed legislation that denies their warped view of proper eating is, then you will have a fair comparison to make. Meanwhile, back in the real world, what you see in the law code regulating eating is more often the "sin tax" (an ironic label, in the context of this discussion) on things deemed harmful such as candy, tobacco, alcohol, etc. So the message is clear from the world: Gayness isn't a sin (in direct contradiction to the teachings of all Apostolic Churches and the Holy Bible) and should be celebrated, but God help you if you want to buy a candy bar without being shamed for it, ya big fatty.

I think I'm going to go eat a brownie. Take that, Big Brother.

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.
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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2012, 01:17:37 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

So, assuming your assertion is true, since people don't equally oppose all sin, they shouldn't oppose any of it?

I get the larger point about singling out homosexuality, but I'm not sure why you are opposing those who oppose the gay pride.  Gluttony is a serious sin, but the analogy with gay pride stuff only goes so far.
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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2012, 01:19:55 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

Nope. Not "well, meh". I wrote that it's bad and I don't support it. At the same time, I'd be lying if I said I saw them in the same light, as one has an entire aggressively anti-Christian sociopolitical worldview and set of goals behind it. The other...well...it's people trying to win trophies doing something they know is gross and abnormal. If you don't see the difference, I don't know what else I can say, but I know I did not say "meh" at all. I just don't think you made a very well-formed analogy, that's all.
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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2012, 01:22:36 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
a slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2012, 01:23:47 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
Been to Serbia?
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2012, 01:34:36 AM »

Why don't they appeal to delegalise Roman Catholicism in Serbia too? Isn't being in schism and heresy a sin?
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« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2012, 01:38:42 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

So, assuming your assertion is true, since people don't equally oppose all sin, they shouldn't oppose any of it?

I get the larger point about singling out homosexuality, but I'm not sure why you are opposing those who oppose the gay pride.  Gluttony is a serious sin, but the analogy with gay pride stuff only goes so far.

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.
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« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2012, 01:39:27 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
a slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

So gluttony doesn't exist in your mind, does it?
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« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2012, 01:56:34 AM »

That "culture war" malarkey is nothing but convenient shorthand for a set of "conservative" and "liberal" cliches so that lazy politicians and their boosters can avoid having to think. As Christianity was not born in either Germany (where the term originated), the United States (where it seems to have taken on a life of its own), or Serbia, I don't think appealing to it in this thread is going to get you very far, unless you're a "liberation theology" type who wants to recast our Lord as an arch-Marxist, or their mirror image who see Jesus Christ as the proto-Reagan. To hell with both of those. Homosexuality is not to be supported by Christians of any political stripe, and the teaching against it certainly predates the modern political dichotomies of any given country.
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« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2012, 02:00:11 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?
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« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2012, 02:05:39 AM »

Quote
So if they don't get to have a parade, this will make them not be gay or something? Do you just want to pretend they are not there?

What exactly do you suggest one should *do* with them? And what are you going to do about your own sins? I can't remember anywhere in the Bible where it says all you have to do to get to Heaven is be a heterosexual.
Wow, talk about making assumptions.

The allowance of such parades leads to common acceptance. Children grow up around it and see nothing wrong. I myself have plenteous sins, however, I don't go on "Liar Pride", "Judgemental Pride", or "Pride Pride" parades vouching for common acceptance of my wrongs. I didn't say anything like what you're freaking out about.
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« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2012, 02:08:43 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.



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« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2012, 02:09:00 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Should I make one so that we can discuss these sins, or is this a rhetorical question? I don't want to seem like a one trick homosexual-parade-opposing pony.
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« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2012, 02:12:15 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
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« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2012, 02:13:02 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Piss-Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.

Never been out on a Friday night I take it?
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« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2012, 02:17:28 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Piss-Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.

You're right, people aren't really trying to win social acceptance for it, what with how there already is social acceptance.
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« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2012, 02:19:31 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.

You're not wrong, but you also may be hypersensitive to this (not using that in a pejorative sense).  People are angry about the topic of homosexuality because they feel its acceptance is being pushed upon them.  Whether the culture war surrounding this war is real or not, it exists.  By that, I mean that people care about the issue and media, pro and anti (including the internet), universities, Gay Pride Parades, etc. feed that.  

I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.

A good portion of paraders are out there to have fun, but another portion (with some obvious overlap) is out to be provocative.  Don't be shocked when people respond to the provocations.
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« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2012, 02:23:34 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
21 pages long enough?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35214.0.html

Don't know if we have a thread urging acceptance of binge drinking. Do link.
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« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2012, 02:24:22 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.


I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.


I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).
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« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2012, 02:27:43 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Because when someone posts a "Pre-Marital Sex is good" thread, everyone castigates the person and the opinion is shouted down.  No one on this board argues that binge drinking is good either; hence no long threads.

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

If people moved on, as I originally did, after reading the OP, the threads wouldn't go so long.  Preaching love is spot on, but jumping to the defense of a gay pride parade is a bit silly too.  

Edit to add: I used the "Pre-Marital Sex is Good" thread as an example, not because I'm implying people were arguing that parades are good, but because there was a recent "Pre-Marital Sex is good" thread.
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« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2012, 02:33:10 AM »

I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).

I can't argue with this.  It certainly seems that way at times.  It happens in some of the Jewish threads too, when some seem to cross a line.

I think we should do a better job of expressing our beliefs, separating them from hate.  That said, even the Fr. Hopko approach doesn't work so well.  Some out there (actual people I know, not random "thems") will not stop pushing their agenda or cease to view us as bigots until we fully accept and even applaud their behavior.  I guess there's not much we can do at that point but stand firm without resorting to nastiness.

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« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2012, 02:35:51 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?
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« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2012, 02:39:03 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.


I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.


I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).
As a rule, you only see the posts that are submitted on the subject.
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