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Author Topic: Gay Pride in Belgrade  (Read 6167 times) Average Rating: 5
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Immanuel
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« on: May 22, 2012, 06:05:20 PM »

The organizing committee of Belgrade Pride 2012 has announced that this year's gay parade would be held on October 6.
But they said the "march" would be one event in an eight-day festival.
"This year, the concept has been changed, so the 'famous march' will be held on October 6, while we will make a festival that will last eight days. We will occupy the city for eight days, because this city belongs to us," said committee member Boban Stojanović.
He also specified that the festival would last from September 30 until October 7.
Stojanović told reporters that the parade would be held under the slogan "love, faith, hope".
The authorities canceled last year's gay parade citing security concerns.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=05&dd=22&nav_id=80384


What a provocation !  Angry
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 06:06:47 PM by Immanuel » Logged
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 06:09:32 PM »

We'll live.
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 06:17:05 PM »

The organizing committee of Belgrade Pride 2012 has announced that this year's gay parade would be held on October 6.
But they said the "march" would be one event in an eight-day festival.
"This year, the concept has been changed, so the 'famous march' will be held on October 6, while we will make a festival that will last eight days. We will occupy the city for eight days, because this city belongs to us," said committee member Boban Stojanović.
He also specified that the festival would last from September 30 until October 7.
Stojanović told reporters that the parade would be held under the slogan "love, faith, hope".
The authorities canceled last year's gay parade citing security concerns.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=05&dd=22&nav_id=80384


What a provocation !  Angry
The Left came and claimed that this city [Chicago] belonged to them.  Didn't quite work out that way.

I trust the Serbs will do the right thing.
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 10:54:41 PM »

The organizing committee of Belgrade Pride 2012 has announced that this year's gay parade would be held on October 6.
But they said the "march" would be one event in an eight-day festival.
"This year, the concept has been changed, so the 'famous march' will be held on October 6, while we will make a festival that will last eight days. We will occupy the city for eight days, because this city belongs to us," said committee member Boban Stojanović.
He also specified that the festival would last from September 30 until October 7.
Stojanović told reporters that the parade would be held under the slogan "love, faith, hope".
The authorities canceled last year's gay parade citing security concerns.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=05&dd=22&nav_id=80384


What a provocation !  Angry
The Left came and claimed that this city [Chicago] belonged to them.  Didn't quite work out that way.

I trust the Serbs will do the right thing.
You mean those people, as citizens of Serbia, should not have the right to organize a march in their own country?
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 05:10:32 AM »

What a provocation !  Angry

I don't see any.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 05:27:53 AM »

What a provocation !  Angry

I don't see any.

Neither do I.  It isn't like they've stormed the cathedrals and begun to engage in relations during a liturgy; that would be provocation.
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 06:33:34 AM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:33:49 AM by Immanuel » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 06:37:02 AM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:37:24 AM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 06:39:37 AM »

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 06:47:19 AM »

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.

So lying, gossiping and judging ones neighbour should be outlawed?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:49:00 AM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 06:51:54 AM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people.

How are you being attacked?
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 07:13:12 AM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 07:14:42 AM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?

I had no idea these homosexuals were raping the heterosexual population of Belgrade!  I demand the Serbian police stop them at once!

Seriously, these "sodomites" (I've never quite understood why people focus on the "men want sex with men" part of the story, when the really interesting thing is the "entire town wants to rape two visitors" part of the story) are not attacking Orthodox people.  They are not occupying a city; they reside in the city.  This is no more an attack on Orthodoxy than the existence of other religions.  

If your faith is so incredibly weak that homosexuals protesting makes you feel attacked, I encourage you to pray more; the presence of sinners really should not lead us to fall into sin, which is the only possible way I can understand this idea that the gays are attacking Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 07:15:43 AM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.

Really?  Are the gays verbally assaulting you?  Are they taunting you?  Are they making obscene gestures toward you?  Such things are normally not permissible in public, so I encourage you to go see your nearest law enforcement official, or sue the gays for harassment.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 07:21:28 AM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.

Have you considered coming out of the closet if you find homosexuality so fascinating?
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 07:25:19 AM »

I had no idea these homosexuals were raping the heterosexual population of Belgrade!

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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 03:58:45 PM »


Seriously, these "sodomites" (I've never quite understood why people focus on the "men want sex with men" part of the story, when the really interesting thing is the "entire town wants to rape two visitors" part of the story) are not attacking Orthodox people.  They are not occupying a city; they reside in the city.  This is no more an attack on Orthodoxy than the existence of other religions.  
Reside in the city? So, why do they need promotion in public?

Quote
If your faith is so incredibly weak that homosexuals protesting makes you feel attacked, I encourage you to pray more; the presence of sinners really should not lead us to fall into sin, which is the only possible way I can understand this idea that the gays are attacking Orthodoxy.
I didn't say that my faith was incredibly weak. Serbs don't need to promote immorality in public. I do not want my town to be Sodom.

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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 04:10:46 PM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.

Please enlighten us on what exactly entails "expressing" one's "sexual orientation".
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 04:12:34 PM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.
Buddy, if that is all it takes, you might want to consider getting some thicker skin.

PP
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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 04:15:56 PM »

Ah, another day of fun on the nominally Orthodox forum - the true vision of American Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 04:20:11 PM »

I expect the response in San Francisco, where I just was yesterday, would be (shoulders shrugging) "What's a little outdoor anal sex between friends?"  Wink

However, I'd be shocked if sodomite Serbs* would try such displays in Belgrade. Not until that city is as "liberated" as SF.

* Sorry, the alliterative possibilities were irresistible. What did Oscar Wilde say about temptation again?
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 04:44:08 PM »



Perhaps the best post I've seen on a homosexuality thread--and there's been a lot of them!
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 05:00:40 PM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.

Really?  Are the gays verbally assaulting you?  Are they taunting you?  Are they making obscene gestures toward you?  Such things are normally not permissible in public

such things happen in boys town in Chicago a lot.

so I encourage you to go see your nearest law enforcement official, or sue the gays for harassment.
Yeah, that would get far in Crook County, SF or NYC.
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 05:04:38 PM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?

I had no idea these homosexuals were raping the heterosexual population of Belgrade!  I demand the Serbian police stop them at once!

Seriously, these "sodomites" (I've never quite understood why people focus on the "men want sex with men" part of the story, when the really interesting thing is the "entire town wants to rape two visitors" part of the story) are not attacking Orthodox people.  They are not occupying a city; they reside in the city.  This is no more an attack on Orthodoxy than the existence of other religions.  

If your faith is so incredibly weak that homosexuals protesting makes you feel attacked, I encourage you to pray more; the presence of sinners really should not lead us to fall into sin, which is the only possible way I can understand this idea that the gays are attacking Orthodoxy.
Yes, well the massive law suit going on between the Vatican and the US government reminds us that any Church minding its own business is not safe from the Left's agenda.  Loving the sinner isn't enough: you have to embrace and celebrate their sin. And yes, that is exactly what the agenda is pushing, which a cursory perusal of what they are insisting be taught in school amply demonstrates.
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 05:08:59 PM »

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.

So lying, gossiping and judging ones neighbour should be outlawed?
It's called libel if it is written, defamation if it is not.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 05:11:27 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2012, 05:13:02 PM »

The organizing committee of Belgrade Pride 2012 has announced that this year's gay parade would be held on October 6.
But they said the "march" would be one event in an eight-day festival.
"This year, the concept has been changed, so the 'famous march' will be held on October 6, while we will make a festival that will last eight days. We will occupy the city for eight days, because this city belongs to us," said committee member Boban Stojanović.
He also specified that the festival would last from September 30 until October 7.
Stojanović told reporters that the parade would be held under the slogan "love, faith, hope".
The authorities canceled last year's gay parade citing security concerns.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=05&dd=22&nav_id=80384


What a provocation !  Angry
The Left came and claimed that this city [Chicago] belonged to them.  Didn't quite work out that way.

I trust the Serbs will do the right thing.
You mean those people, as citizens of Serbia, should not have the right to organize a march in their own country?

I trust the Serbs will do the right thing.
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2012, 05:47:17 PM »

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.

So lying, gossiping and judging ones neighbour should be outlawed?
It's called libel if it is written, defamation if it is not.

Really? I thought we called that TMZ and US Weekly?  Huh
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2012, 05:57:08 PM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.

Please enlighten us on what exactly entails "expressing" one's "sexual orientation".

It means imposing your sexual disorders on others no matter how much it offends them.  Rub it in their face... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 06:11:57 PM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.

Please enlighten us on what exactly entails "expressing" one's "sexual orientation".

It means imposing your sexual disorders on others no matter how much it offends them.  Rub it in their face... Roll Eyes

It did tire and disgust me to see the sorta choice many straight women make.

Then I removed my mirror.

Much better now.

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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2012, 06:12:54 PM »


Yes, well the massive law suit going on between the Vatican and the US government

Where is the Vatican suing the US government? In the UN? The WTO?
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2012, 06:16:11 PM »

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.

So lying, gossiping and judging ones neighbour should be outlawed?
It's called libel if it is written, defamation if it is not.

Really? I thought we called that TMZ and US Weekly?  Huh
Could be.  I ignore both.
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2012, 06:16:39 PM »


Yes, well the massive law suit going on between the Vatican and the US government

Where is the Vatican suing the US government? In the UN? The WTO?

People can't let that whole figure of speech go no matter the context.
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2012, 06:16:50 PM »


Yes, well the massive law suit going on between the Vatican and the US government

Where is the Vatican suing the US government? In the UN? The WTO?
Federal District Court.
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2012, 06:50:28 PM »

In other news...

San Francisco official claims he contacted Harvey Milk through a Ouija board

Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A San Francisco supervisor says he consulted a Ouija board before city leaders voted on whether to recommend naming a Navy ship after slain gay rights activist Harvey Milk.

Supervisor John Avalos tells the San Francisco Chronicle that he believes he made contact with Milk's spirit and that Milk spelled out letters indicating: "Good riddance to don't ask, don't tell."

The Board of Supervisors approved the non-binding resolution Tuesday on a 9-2 vote.
Milk was a city supervisor and former naval officer. He was fatally shot in 1978 by Dan White.

Supporters say the naming would honor the repeal of the 'don't ask, don't tell" law barring open homosexuality in the military.

Opponents say Milk opposed war and it would be inappropriate to name a warship after him.

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_20690993/san-francisco-official-claims-he-contacted-harvey-milk?source

---

Who wants to bet they are going to put his name on a cruiser?  Wink

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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2012, 07:04:20 PM »

In other news...

San Francisco official claims he contacted Harvey Milk through a Ouija board

Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A San Francisco supervisor says he consulted a Ouija board before city leaders voted on whether to recommend naming a Navy ship after slain gay rights activist Harvey Milk.

Supervisor John Avalos tells the San Francisco Chronicle that he believes he made contact with Milk's spirit and that Milk spelled out letters indicating: "Good riddance to don't ask, don't tell."

The Board of Supervisors approved the non-binding resolution Tuesday on a 9-2 vote.
Milk was a city supervisor and former naval officer. He was fatally shot in 1978 by Dan White.

Supporters say the naming would honor the repeal of the 'don't ask, don't tell" law barring open homosexuality in the military.

Opponents say Milk opposed war and it would be inappropriate to name a warship after him.

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_20690993/san-francisco-official-claims-he-contacted-harvey-milk?source

---

Who wants to bet they are going to put his name on a cruiser?  Wink


How about a submarine.  Up periscope!
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2012, 10:16:10 PM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.

Please enlighten us on what exactly entails "expressing" one's "sexual orientation".

It means imposing your sexual disorders on others no matter how much it offends them.  Rub it in their face... Roll Eyes

If people are rubbing their genetalia in your face, I encourage you to contact the police.
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2012, 11:25:07 PM »

Emotionally, spiritually and psychologically.
These sort of people feel persecuted once they can no longer tell others what to do, (micro)manage their lives etc. 
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2012, 11:25:07 PM »

I expect the response in San Francisco, where I just was yesterday, would be (shoulders shrugging) "What's a little outdoor anal sex between friends?"  Wink

However, I'd be shocked if sodomite Serbs* would try such displays in Belgrade. Not until that city is as "liberated" as SF.

* Sorry, the alliterative possibilities were irresistible. What did Oscar Wilde say about temptation again?
You have a fixation on anal stuff. So, what's that seminary again?
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2012, 02:09:04 AM »

I expect the response in San Francisco, where I just was yesterday, would be (shoulders shrugging) "What's a little outdoor anal sex between friends?"  Wink

However, I'd be shocked if sodomite Serbs* would try such displays in Belgrade. Not until that city is as "liberated" as SF.

* Sorry, the alliterative possibilities were irresistible. What did Oscar Wilde say about temptation again?
You have a fixation on anal stuff. So, what's that seminary again?

Well, since as an armchair psychoanalyst you are seemingly dying to know, I gave up my anal fixation around the time I was potty trained. How about you?

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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2012, 02:44:26 AM »


Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.

Please enlighten us on what exactly entails "expressing" one's "sexual orientation".

Openly admitting homosexuality and being proud of it. While I have Christian view of homosexuality and while I find being proud of ones sexual orientation a little weird I don't think state should enforce Christian views on others nor should state enforce non-Christian views on the Church. Freedom is a nice thing to have.

Quote
Me neither. It's rather nice to see that Serbia is tolerant enough that these people feel safe enough to express their sexual orientation without fear of violence etc.
It's sad to see that Serbia tolerates public immorality.

So lying, gossiping and judging ones neighbour should be outlawed?
It's called libel if it is written, defamation if it is not.

That's pretty narrow view of those sins.
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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2012, 03:45:49 AM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?

People are traveling to your city fo rthe express purpose of being cruel to the widows and orphans in your midst? How odd.
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2012, 04:13:25 AM »

Everyday in summer looks like a heterosexual pride parade in Ukraine.  I doubt many of the posters complaining of their oppression by gays would be offended. 

I'm not a prude, but context does matter.  If you are going to the beach, wear clothes appropriate to the beach.  You don't need to wear a miniskirt with high heels to attend my classes.
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2012, 05:44:00 AM »

Everyday in summer looks like a heterosexual pride parade in Ukraine.  I doubt many of the posters complaining of their oppression by gays would be offended. 

I'm not a prude, but context does matter.  If you are going to the beach, wear clothes appropriate to the beach.  You don't need to wear a miniskirt with high heels to attend my classes.

It really is a shame how modesty has all but disappeared outside Amish communities.
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« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2012, 08:31:16 PM »

Serbia must not stand by and let her cities turn into Sodom and Gomorrah. Too often is the cross trampled on in the name of "love" and "tolerance." If we truly loved them, we would seek their salvation, and not permit such things. Standing idly by while people promote sin is hate to the core.
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2012, 08:53:40 PM »

So if they don't get to have a parade, this will make them not be gay or something? Do you just want to pretend they are not there?

What exactly do you suggest one should *do* with them? And what are you going to do about your own sins? I can't remember anywhere in the Bible where it says all you have to do to get to Heaven is be a heterosexual.
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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2012, 09:06:07 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2012, 09:08:55 PM »

Yeah, it does say you can't be proud of being gay and Serbian. That's exactly what it says.

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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2012, 09:17:47 PM »

Re-read what I wrote, please.

Quote from: me
It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles.

Unless you want to argue that the only way for gay people to be proud is to have a big parade to announce to the world that they are gay, then I don't see how not letting them have such a parade would rob them of the right to be proud of who they are. I mean...I'm proud that I aced all of my classes this year, but I'm not having a parade over it. And I'm certainly not having a parade over what I prefer to do in bed, or who I prefer to do it with.
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« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2012, 09:36:42 PM »

This is an attack on Orthodox people. You see no problem in occupation of city by these sodomites?

People are traveling to your city fo rthe express purpose of being cruel to the widows and orphans in your midst? How odd.

These homosexuals do not live in Serbia, and they know that their lifestyle is offensive to the Serbian people, and yet they insist on imposing it on them.  Wouldn't  that be going against the rights of the Serbian people?

 That these 'gay rights' group insist on imposing themselves on the rights of others and in such a flagrant way, gives a reflection of who and what they are....or rather who or what is really guiding them.  Angry
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« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2012, 09:41:30 PM »

They are citizens of their country. Do we take away freedom of assembly from people we don't like?

If they're actually committing sex acts in the streets, yes, stop them. But if they want to wear ugly clothes and dance on top of a truck that's loaded with flowers, this is not the same.

Sorry, but heterosexuals commit sin, too. What are you doing to stop them? As I said, I wasn't aware you could get into Heaven just for being straight.

I'm sure nothing is going to impress gay people more than Orthodox Christians calling them perverts and chasing them down the streets and chucking beer bottles at them.
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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2012, 09:57:36 PM »

If freedom of assembly is an absolute right, then why did the student activist hippies get removed from the campus of the University of New Mexico here in Albuquerque a few months ago during that whole "occupy/unoccupy everything" hoopla, and again when they tried to mess up Nonie Darwish's talk on Israeli involvement in the Arab Spring uprisings? Because it turns out your absolute right to congregate wherever you'd like to do whatever you'd like so long as it does not involve physical violence or public sex is, um...not actually absolute at all. And those are two examples from America, which takes this whole "freedom of assembly" thing pretty seriously. I don't know about laws governing assembly in Serbia, but that's okay, because you probably don't either.

The point is if the majority of Belgrade citizens have a problem with it, and bring their objection to the appropriate city governing bodies or whatever, why shouldn't they be allowed to say "please have your parade somewhere else"? Far from violating a peoples' freedom, that's an assertion of the peoples' freedom: The freedom of the Serbian people to demand that their local government be responsive to their concerns and sensitive to their sensibilities. We did nothing less than that here in America in my home state of California when we gathered together Catholics, Mormons, and other social conservatives to pass Proposition 8, which defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman. But of course the homosexual lobby isn't really about freedom in any sort of democratic sense, but about getting their political agenda enforced throughout the land, and to hell with the people who disagree with it, even if they are the majority. I don't know why homosexual activists in Serbia would be any different.

And spare me all this "heterosexuals commit sin, too", "you can get into heaven just by being straight", and "chasing them down the streets chucking beer bottles at them" crap. Nobody is talking about any of that but you, and I'm not taking the bait, so quit trying to deflect attention onto other issues.
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2012, 10:51:49 PM »

Bottom line:

Gay parade is redundant.
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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2012, 11:22:33 PM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2012, 11:36:57 PM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.

Don't spend much time with gay folk do you?
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2012, 11:50:36 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2012, 11:55:27 PM »

They are citizens of their country. Do we take away freedom of assembly from people we don't like?
I didn't know you were Serbian.
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
actually, no.
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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2012, 11:59:12 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?
actually, no.

After you posted this, I edited my post as I realized I left out a word.
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2012, 12:02:54 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2012, 12:11:19 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2012, 12:16:12 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2012, 12:18:30 AM »

Never seen a place so obssessed with homosexuality.

Don't spend much time with gay folk do you?
I don't.
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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2012, 12:19:43 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2012, 12:22:27 AM »

I really miss the moratorium on the gay stuff. It's just cumbersome around here.
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2012, 12:29:26 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2012, 12:55:33 AM »

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?

I can't believe I'm having to write things like this, but there are very big differences between an eating contest and a gay pride parade. For one, things like gay pride parades are predicated on a sociopolitical outlook that sees homosexuality as a legitimate alternative to God-instituted marriage and categories of sex and gender. This has no equivalent in your pie-eating contest example, as obviously the pie-eaters know that they are overeating; that's kind of the point. Yes, it's gross and dumb (and cruel and shameless, given the millions who are starving around the world while Americans and Japanese stuff themselves silly with hotdogs for money), no I don't support it, but to pretend that there is a legitimate challenge to Christianity there is stretching things just a little bit.  Roll Eyes They aren't trying to legitimize their hobby or whatever as being on equal footing as regular eating, nor trying to teach children that overeating is natural and good, nor trying to criminalize people who would advocate healthy eating instead. So there really is no comparison beyond the overly simplistic "they're both sins, aren't they?" level.

When "eating contest activists" try to force us to support their activities and try to criminalize the expression of views that don't agree with their lifestyle, and use their political muscle to strike down legitimately-passed legislation that denies their warped view of proper eating is, then you will have a fair comparison to make. Meanwhile, back in the real world, what you see in the law code regulating eating is more often the "sin tax" (an ironic label, in the context of this discussion) on things deemed harmful such as candy, tobacco, alcohol, etc. So the message is clear from the world: Gayness isn't a sin (in direct contradiction to the teachings of all Apostolic Churches and the Holy Bible) and should be celebrated, but God help you if you want to buy a candy bar without being shamed for it, ya big fatty.

I think I'm going to go eat a brownie. Take that, Big Brother.
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2012, 12:58:57 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 

Please see reply 50, paragraph 2, word 4 for more on what I do and don't assume about Serbia. You'll find there a very useful conjunction named if, used to introduce a conditional statement.
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2012, 01:10:04 AM »

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?

I can't believe I'm having to write things like this, but there are very big differences between an eating contest and a gay pride parade. For one, things like gay pride parades are predicated on a sociopolitical outlook that sees homosexuality as a legitimate alternative to God-instituted marriage and categories of sex and gender. This has no equivalent in your pie-eating contest example, as obviously the pie-eaters know that they are overeating; that's kind of the point. Yes, it's gross and dumb (and cruel and shameless, given the millions who are starving around the world while Americans and Japanese stuff themselves silly with hotdogs for money), no I don't support it, but to pretend that there is a legitimate challenge to Christianity there is stretching things just a little bit.  Roll Eyes They aren't trying to legitimize their hobby or whatever as being on equal footing as regular eating, nor trying to teach children that overeating is natural and good, nor trying to criminalize people who would advocate healthy eating instead. So there really is no comparison beyond the overly simplistic "they're both sins, aren't they?" level.

When "eating contest activists" try to force us to support their activities and try to criminalize the expression of views that don't agree with their lifestyle, and use their political muscle to strike down legitimately-passed legislation that denies their warped view of proper eating is, then you will have a fair comparison to make. Meanwhile, back in the real world, what you see in the law code regulating eating is more often the "sin tax" (an ironic label, in the context of this discussion) on things deemed harmful such as candy, tobacco, alcohol, etc. So the message is clear from the world: Gayness isn't a sin (in direct contradiction to the teachings of all Apostolic Churches and the Holy Bible) and should be celebrated, but God help you if you want to buy a candy bar without being shamed for it, ya big fatty.

I think I'm going to go eat a brownie. Take that, Big Brother.

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.
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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2012, 01:17:37 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

So, assuming your assertion is true, since people don't equally oppose all sin, they shouldn't oppose any of it?

I get the larger point about singling out homosexuality, but I'm not sure why you are opposing those who oppose the gay pride.  Gluttony is a serious sin, but the analogy with gay pride stuff only goes so far.
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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2012, 01:19:55 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

Nope. Not "well, meh". I wrote that it's bad and I don't support it. At the same time, I'd be lying if I said I saw them in the same light, as one has an entire aggressively anti-Christian sociopolitical worldview and set of goals behind it. The other...well...it's people trying to win trophies doing something they know is gross and abnormal. If you don't see the difference, I don't know what else I can say, but I know I did not say "meh" at all. I just don't think you made a very well-formed analogy, that's all.
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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2012, 01:22:36 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
a slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2012, 01:23:47 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
Been to Serbia?
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2012, 01:34:36 AM »

Why don't they appeal to delegalise Roman Catholicism in Serbia too? Isn't being in schism and heresy a sin?
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« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2012, 01:38:42 AM »

As I expected: Homosexuality is a serious sin, but things like gluttony, well, meh.

So, assuming your assertion is true, since people don't equally oppose all sin, they shouldn't oppose any of it?

I get the larger point about singling out homosexuality, but I'm not sure why you are opposing those who oppose the gay pride.  Gluttony is a serious sin, but the analogy with gay pride stuff only goes so far.

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.
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« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2012, 01:39:27 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
a slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

So gluttony doesn't exist in your mind, does it?
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« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2012, 01:56:34 AM »

That "culture war" malarkey is nothing but convenient shorthand for a set of "conservative" and "liberal" cliches so that lazy politicians and their boosters can avoid having to think. As Christianity was not born in either Germany (where the term originated), the United States (where it seems to have taken on a life of its own), or Serbia, I don't think appealing to it in this thread is going to get you very far, unless you're a "liberation theology" type who wants to recast our Lord as an arch-Marxist, or their mirror image who see Jesus Christ as the proto-Reagan. To hell with both of those. Homosexuality is not to be supported by Christians of any political stripe, and the teaching against it certainly predates the modern political dichotomies of any given country.
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« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2012, 02:00:11 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?
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« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2012, 02:05:39 AM »

Quote
So if they don't get to have a parade, this will make them not be gay or something? Do you just want to pretend they are not there?

What exactly do you suggest one should *do* with them? And what are you going to do about your own sins? I can't remember anywhere in the Bible where it says all you have to do to get to Heaven is be a heterosexual.
Wow, talk about making assumptions.

The allowance of such parades leads to common acceptance. Children grow up around it and see nothing wrong. I myself have plenteous sins, however, I don't go on "Liar Pride", "Judgemental Pride", or "Pride Pride" parades vouching for common acceptance of my wrongs. I didn't say anything like what you're freaking out about.
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« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2012, 02:08:43 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.



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« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2012, 02:09:00 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Should I make one so that we can discuss these sins, or is this a rhetorical question? I don't want to seem like a one trick homosexual-parade-opposing pony.
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« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2012, 02:12:15 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
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« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2012, 02:13:02 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Piss-Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.

Never been out on a Friday night I take it?
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« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2012, 02:17:28 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Hmm, I suppose it's because you don't have many people pushing the Church to bless pre-marital sex or binge drinking or organizing Fornicating Pride or Piss-Drunk Pride parades and religious activities.

You're right, people aren't really trying to win social acceptance for it, what with how there already is social acceptance.
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« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2012, 02:19:31 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.

You're not wrong, but you also may be hypersensitive to this (not using that in a pejorative sense).  People are angry about the topic of homosexuality because they feel its acceptance is being pushed upon them.  Whether the culture war surrounding this war is real or not, it exists.  By that, I mean that people care about the issue and media, pro and anti (including the internet), universities, Gay Pride Parades, etc. feed that.  

I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.

A good portion of paraders are out there to have fun, but another portion (with some obvious overlap) is out to be provocative.  Don't be shocked when people respond to the provocations.
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« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2012, 02:23:34 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
21 pages long enough?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35214.0.html

Don't know if we have a thread urging acceptance of binge drinking. Do link.
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« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2012, 02:24:22 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.


I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.


I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).
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« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2012, 02:27:43 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Because when someone posts a "Pre-Marital Sex is good" thread, everyone castigates the person and the opinion is shouted down.  No one on this board argues that binge drinking is good either; hence no long threads.

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

If people moved on, as I originally did, after reading the OP, the threads wouldn't go so long.  Preaching love is spot on, but jumping to the defense of a gay pride parade is a bit silly too.  

Edit to add: I used the "Pre-Marital Sex is Good" thread as an example, not because I'm implying people were arguing that parades are good, but because there was a recent "Pre-Marital Sex is good" thread.
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« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2012, 02:33:10 AM »

I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).

I can't argue with this.  It certainly seems that way at times.  It happens in some of the Jewish threads too, when some seem to cross a line.

I think we should do a better job of expressing our beliefs, separating them from hate.  That said, even the Fr. Hopko approach doesn't work so well.  Some out there (actual people I know, not random "thems") will not stop pushing their agenda or cease to view us as bigots until we fully accept and even applaud their behavior.  I guess there's not much we can do at that point but stand firm without resorting to nastiness.

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« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2012, 02:35:51 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?
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« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2012, 02:39:03 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.


I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.


I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).
As a rule, you only see the posts that are submitted on the subject.
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« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2012, 02:39:52 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?

You're right that most don't argue that homosexual acts are OK, but rather the idea that there is little wrong with a gay pride parade, or that we shouldn't care.  I'm not myself saying it's the end of the world and Serbia will never be the same, but these threads, this one included, don't tend to be lengthy because everyone piles on the hate for homosexuals.
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« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2012, 02:43:07 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?
From my experience, it's actually been the Orthodox or other Christians who have a real bee in their bonnets about making sure we know beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that homosexual relations are sinful who drive many of our gay threads.
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« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2012, 02:43:19 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
21 pages long enough?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35214.0.html

Don't know if we have a thread urging acceptance of binge drinking. Do link.

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.  That is the point I'm getting at.  People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.  For all the posturing of the RCC, they should put their money where their mouth is - start marching in the streets to ban the sale of condoms and start excommunicating families with one or two children.  
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« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2012, 02:47:30 AM »

It's a part of the larger pattern on this board - and indeed in much of Christendom - that sees it as essential to be a part of the ongoing culture war.  I object to the idea that the Orthodox Church ought to be engaging in culture wars; instead it ought to be spreading the Gospel, and the Gospel includes love, something I rarely see on this board when the topic of homosexuality comes up.  The fact that many people, on this board and off of it, seem to get so angry about homosexuality and yet tend to not take up arms against any other sins (save abortion), saddens me.


I don't believe that hate is always involved.  The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' can be a bit silly, especially when people aren't really doing the latter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Yes, people often hide hate beneath disapproval, but people can genuinely disapprove without hating.


I completely understand this; when people like Fr. Hopko talk about homosexuality, despite a clear condemnation of homosexual relations, he still comes across as loving.  There are other Orthodox and non-Orthodox who also can do the same thing; but the people on this board, if they have love for homosexuals, I do not usually see it (with the exception of a few board members).
As a rule, you only see the posts that are submitted on the subject.

That's quite true, and at least one forum member who I can think of that seems to have love instead of hate does not normally post on homosexuality-related threads.
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« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2012, 02:48:17 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?
From my experience, it's actually been the Orthodox or other Christians who have a real bee in their bonnets about making sure we know beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that homosexual relations are sinful who drive many of our gay threads.

Of the first 15 replies, outside of the OP, only one post was in agreement.  The rest, voiced by several people, were actually attacking the criticism of the parade, including insinuating that he was, himself gay, or that he didn't like "freedom" or what not.

My point is that this thread was lengthened, not by gay bashers, but by gay bashing bashers.
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« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2012, 02:49:55 AM »

The main reason the gay threads go so long is because there is a vocal group on this forum that continually argue the subject and criticize people for their intolerance.

Uhm...I have seen hardly anyone here apart from non-Christians who argue that homosexuality or homosexual acts are OK. Have I missed something?
From my experience, it's actually been the Orthodox or other Christians who have a real bee in their bonnets about making sure we know beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that homosexual relations are sinful who drive many of our gay threads.

Of the first 15 replies, outside of the OP, only one post was in agreement.  The rest, voiced by several people, were actually attacking the criticism of the parade, including insinuating that he was, himself gay, or that he didn't like "freedom" or what not.

My point is that this thread was lengthened, not by gay bashers, but by gay bashing bashers.
It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences. You're talking about this specific thread (and making a hasty generalization from this thread?), and I'm talking about my experience on this forum with gay threads in general.
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« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2012, 02:54:55 AM »

It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences. You're talking about this specific thread (and making a hasty generalization from this thread?), and I'm talking about my experience on this forum with gay threads in general.

Duly noted.  Perhaps it's a fairly recent trend, and some of the discussion may be beneficial.  There's my attempt at optimism for the month.
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« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2012, 02:56:51 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
Been to Serbia?
My parents went for a couple of years almost every week, very early nineties. ('90-'91) Plus there are enough Serbs in Banat that I've known. And many others here. So, yes, I know plenty of them.
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2012, 02:59:36 AM »

It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences.

In this thread in general we are probably also operating under different definitions of what love and hate are, which is no doubt lengthening this thread. I don't see anything hateful in telling other people (particularly when you love and care for them) that their behavior is not good or healthy, whether we're discussing homosexuality or any other sin. In this particular thread, we happen to be discussing homosexuality. Undecided (shrug)
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2012, 03:14:00 AM »

It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences.

In this thread in general we are probably also operating under different definitions of what love and hate are, which is no doubt lengthening this thread. I don't see anything hateful in telling other people (particularly when you love and care for them) that their behavior is not good or healthy, whether we're discussing homosexuality or any other sin. In this particular thread, we happen to be discussing homosexuality. Undecided (shrug)

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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2012, 03:16:41 AM »

Agreed. So it's a good thing that you can't tell anything about whether or not people who oppose this parade love or do not love homosexuals, since the two are not intrinsically related.
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« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2012, 06:58:47 AM »

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

Do you have anything to contribute that is related to the post you quoted, or to the wider topic of this thread, which is not pie eating contests?


""We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city"."

If that is your position on gay pride parades, should it not be your position on pie eating contests - which glorify gluttony - seeing as how they involve overt sin, as well?  Or do just oppose having homosexuality be brandished about publicly?
A slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

Who said anything about a slice?  I wasn't aware people engaged in pie eating contests just to eat a slice or two of pie, I kind of thought the point of eating contests was to stuff as much food into your stomach as possible.
a slice of pie is no sin.

A little homosexual activity is.

So gluttony doesn't exist in your mind, does it?
sure it does, but homosexual activity in moderation doesn't.
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« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2012, 07:00:22 AM »

I've known lots of Serbs and they are by and large good people, but haven't met any churchy ones-the sort dzeremy imagines populate Serbia. If they have an aversion to homosexuals it's pretty safe to ascribe it to causes other than  orthodox churchiness and bigotry. 
Been to Serbia?
My parents went for a couple of years almost every week, very early nineties. ('90-'91) Plus there are enough Serbs in Banat that I've known. And many others here. So, yes, I know plenty of them.
I didn't ask if you knew any (wasn't your roommate Serbian?).  I asked if you have been to Serbia.
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« Reply #103 on: May 25, 2012, 07:09:54 AM »

Why is it that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex, or binge drinking, yet homosexuality has countless quite long threads?

Right.  If the apparatus of the state is to be used to save people from sin, how many here would promote complete prohibition, making it illegal to have visible cleavage or a skirt above the knee?  We need to stop sin.  Despite the fact that alcoholism is destroying Ukrainian and Russian society, I doubt we'll ever see the MP seriously back any real anti-alcohol campaigns.  No chance at gay bashing is ever missed.  

It reminds me of a biography of Cardinal Stepinac I read awhile back.  Up to the bitter end he was fighting to make a law banning the use of profanity on Sundays.  Apparently he was obvious to the carnage and slaughter being enacted around him.   To me that is a microcosm of 20th and 21st century Christianity.  Self-absorbed and oblivious to the greater problems in society.      
21 pages long enough?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35214.0.html

Don't know if we have a thread urging acceptance of binge drinking. Do link.

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.  That is the point I'm getting at.  People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.  For all the posturing of the RCC, they should put their money where their mouth is - start marching in the streets to ban the sale of condoms and start excommunicating families with one or two children.  
You chimed in on to the patently and demonstrably false statement "that this board never seems to have long threads condemning, say, pre-marital sex," where several such threads exist, driven by condemnation of the promotion of pre-marital sex as OK.  I'll yet to see a thread (but then, I haven't looked either) that urges that night clubs should be opened, the sale of vodka should be increased, that porn should be promoted.  When we see one such thread, and no one stomps on it, then you can whine all you like.  Not until.

You can open a thread any time on your pet crusade.

As for your caricature of the RCC's, well I would expect no less of that: where does the Vatican demand that its followers have more than two children? (there are several threads on the RCCs and condoms, and you can see far more at CAF).
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« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2012, 07:21:56 AM »

It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences.

In this thread in general we are probably also operating under different definitions of what love and hate are, which is no doubt lengthening this thread. I don't see anything hateful in telling other people (particularly when you love and care for them) that their behavior is not good or healthy, whether we're discussing homosexuality or any other sin. In this particular thread, we happen to be discussing homosexuality. Undecided (shrug)

This goes beyond simply disagreeing with someone.  People who disagree with the parade are essentially suggesting (if not outright declaring) that the state should enforce their view over other people.  If the state ought to be the enforcer of moral opinions, I'd be curious whom you as a Copt prefer: Justinian or the Islamists?  Then there is the issue that attacks on homosexuality are almost always accompanied with the sky is falling rhetoric.  This makes no sense considering that at the most homosexuals are a tiny percentage of the population.  At least where I live there are certainly more alcoholics.  Yet priests bless vodka in Easter baskets without batting an eyelash.  Corruption (and the accompanying sins of greed, telling lies) is a daily part of life.  The Orthodox Church is mostly silent on the issue.  So in this vehement condemnation of homosexuality there is a lot more involved than a mere disagreement over behavior.  
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« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2012, 07:33:34 AM »

It appears, then, that we're talking about two different experiences.

In this thread in general we are probably also operating under different definitions of what love and hate are, which is no doubt lengthening this thread. I don't see anything hateful in telling other people (particularly when you love and care for them) that their behavior is not good or healthy, whether we're discussing homosexuality or any other sin. In this particular thread, we happen to be discussing homosexuality. Undecided (shrug)

This goes beyond simply disagreeing with someone.  People who disagree with the parade are essentially suggesting (if not outright declaring) that the state should enforce their view over other people.  If the state ought to be the enforcer of moral opinions, I'd be curious whom you as a Copt prefer: Justinian or the Islamists?  Then there is the issue that attacks on homosexuality are almost always accompanied with the sky is falling rhetoric.  This makes no sense considering that at the most homosexuals are a tiny percentage of the population.
 
And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

At least where I live there are certainly more alcoholics.  Yet priests bless vodka in Easter baskets without batting an eyelash.  Corruption (and the accompanying sins of greed, telling lies) is a daily part of life.  The Orthodox Church is mostly silent on the issue.  So in this vehement condemnation of homosexuality there is a lot more involved than a mere disagreement over behavior.  
Like I said, you are free to open any thread on any Crusade you want.
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« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2012, 07:38:24 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 
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« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2012, 07:52:29 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  

what is being demanded is not a bit of education, but a LOT of re-education.

with a bit of traditional morality, you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  But that's too simple for the sophisticated set.

And education and promotion of traditional morality (the fact that you have to say "traditional" shows how much it is needed) is certainly a worthy cause, although you didn't say a word about a cause being "worthy."  You just poo-pooed the idea based on numbers in the opposition.
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« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2012, 10:18:31 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  

what is being demanded is not a bit of education, but a LOT of re-education.

with a bit of traditional morality, you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  But that's too simple for the sophisticated set.

And education and promotion of traditional morality (the fact that you have to say "traditional" shows how much it is needed) is certainly a worthy cause, although you didn't say a word about a cause being "worthy."  You just poo-pooed the idea based on numbers in the opposition.

I don't disagree that encouraging behavior that is low-risk is a good thing.  I think you are projecting here.   

In a larger sense, I'd also say that "celebrity causes" distort reality.  Malaria treatment is still underfunded around the world.  Most people probably are familiar with Darfur and Tibet; I'd wager most aren't familiar with the extent of childhood malnutrition in Tajikistan or forced sterilizations in Uzbekistan.   
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« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2012, 10:29:25 AM »

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 

Provided you are willing to modify your behavior, that is. All the knowledge in the world doesn't help if you don't use any of it.
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« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2012, 10:30:52 AM »

don't tend to be lengthy because everyone piles on the hate for homosexuals.

Hate for homosexual individuals, or hate for the open promotion and encouragement to accept perversion?

Besides, "hate" is a very strong word and is brandished far too lightly in discussions on this subject.
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« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2012, 10:31:55 AM »

with a bit of traditional morality, you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  But that's too simple for the sophisticated set.

In the words of Ronald Reagan, "There are no easy answers but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right."
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« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2012, 10:33:12 AM »

...or hate for the open promotion and encouragement to accept perversion?

"Encouragement?"  Coercion is the word I think you meant to use. More fitting, really.
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« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2012, 10:39:48 AM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2012, 11:05:10 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  

what is being demanded is not a bit of education, but a LOT of re-education.

with a bit of traditional morality, you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero.  But that's too simple for the sophisticated set.

And education and promotion of traditional morality (the fact that you have to say "traditional" shows how much it is needed) is certainly a worthy cause, although you didn't say a word about a cause being "worthy."  You just poo-pooed the idea based on numbers in the opposition.
I don't disagree that encouraging behavior that is low-risk is a good thing.  I think you are projecting here.
No, just responding to the statements you made.

In a larger sense, I'd also say that "celebrity causes" distort reality.  Malaria treatment is still underfunded around the world.  Most people probably are familiar with Darfur and Tibet; I'd wager most aren't familiar with the extent of childhood malnutrition in Tajikistan or forced sterilizations in Uzbekistan.   
OOooo! Something we are 100% agreed on.
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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2012, 11:25:40 AM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.
It is interesting how, under the guise of sex ed., public education can teach all sorts of sex practices and conventions as "normal,"  except what is still the norm.

And I know of a lot of night clubs which have been shut down.  I also know of one which fought back:
Quote
Exotic dancers from an Ohio strip club are picketing a church in Ohio with a history of picketing the strip club where they work. Women in bikinis sat in camp chairs Sunday outside the New Beginnings Ministries church in Warsaw, about 60 miles northeast of Columbus.
http://www.examiner.com/article/religion-strippers-bikinis-picket-church-ohio-video

As to the vodka, that has been a long concern:
http://www.asna.ca/alaska/aleut/temperance.pdf
Quote
Transcriber's Note: In 1907, Bishop Innocent (Pustynsky) of Alaska compiled a general report on the condition of the Alaskan Vicariate of the American Orthodox mission for the year 1906. In section VII, under the heading "Church Organizations" (p.34), Bishop Innocent made the following comments about the publication of the Orthodox Temperance Society pamphlet to promote sobriety among its members,
http://www.orthodoxcanada.com/journal/2008-05-02.html

Quote
PETITION FROM THE TLINGIT ORTHODOX CHIEFS TO THE U.S. PRESIDENT, 1897

...The reason for this (petition) is following; because here we cannot get any satisfaction to our just and lawful demands. We know that the Russian Government at the time of the transfer of Alaska to the U.S. did not sell us as slaves to America, but left us some rights and privileges which were later made lawful and firm by the U.S Congress...We offer our petition which is follows:...3) We do not want American saloons. We beg The Government to close them . . . We have brought cases to the local authorities here and the result is that the white man goes free and unpunished, but the Native suffers fines, imprisonment and punishment. We do not want the civilization that only does not stop saloons but encourages them . . .
http://www.alaskool.org/projects/native_gov/recollections/peratrovich/Elizabeth_1.htm

Quote
Bishop Illarion of Vienna and Austria:
Such communities [AA] exist all over the world. They have much to teach us. The recovery program is developed with the needs of a complex process in mind and takes place during the whole life course of the person. The program organisers try, as much as possible, to remove the internal reasons and motivations, the causes for physical and psychological addiction to alcohol and drugs. To do this, they arrange open meetings where everyone tells his or her life story and reasons that caused him or her to use drugs or alcohol. In the initial stage of the recovery process, this helps patients not to feel abandoned and lonely. This social feeling of human unity is of much importance, and it takes central place in all other treatments.
As a rule, such communities do not have a specific religious background, although much attention is paid to religious activities throughout the treatment course. The conscious desire not to return to former ways of life and the will to do so become the final results of an intense recovery course.
A group of Orthodox Christians – priests and laity – compelled by feelings of compassion towards those addicted to drugs or alcohol, decided to create a new icon of Christ the Savior called “The True Vine”. The new icon was created in accordance with Orthodox icon traditions and rules.
The Patriarch of Moscow and all of Russia Alexey blessed people who cry out to God in their addiction and those who are trying to help the sufferers to pray to Christ through this icon.
On the 11th of December 2005 a copy of the icon of the Theotokos called the “Inexhaustible Cup” was copied by the St. Daniilov Monastery from the Vysotsky monastery in Serpukhov. The icon was copied by Sergei Sokolov, who previously wrote the original icon in Serpukhov. People went out to meet the long-awaited icon…it was written using the money donated from those who are addicted and their relatives. The meeting of the icon happened at five in the evening by the Holy Gates of the monastery. An Akafist was sung to the icon and then everyone had a chance to venerate the icon.   
http://www.pravmir.com/article_161.html

Quote
Fr. Meletios, you have another interesting side, in that you have written several books. Could you please name those books?

Of the two books that are published at the moment, the first is called Steps of Transformation, and that has a subtitle: An Orthodox Priest Explores the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. The second is called Bread and Water, Wine and Oil, and the subtitle is, An Orthodox Christian Experience of God.

The first book (people say that everyone has one book inside of them, and this is probably mine—the one I needed to write before I could write anything else) was really linking together my life as an Orthodox priest and my life as a psychotherapist who has been very much involved in recovery from addiction. It is something of a matter of opinion, but I have to say, hand on heart, that of all the methods that have ever been devised to help people recover from alcoholism, the work of Alcoholics Anonymous is preeminent.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/080206153355.htm
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« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2012, 11:34:08 AM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.
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« Reply #117 on: May 25, 2012, 11:36:48 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?
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« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2012, 11:41:45 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?
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« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2012, 12:41:09 PM »

don't tend to be lengthy because everyone piles on the hate for homosexuals.

Hate for homosexual individuals, or hate for the open promotion and encouragement to accept perversion?

Besides, "hate" is a very strong word and is brandished far too lightly in discussions on this subject.

I can't tell if you misunderstood my point, which wasn't worded too well, or not.  I'm basically in agreement, as I don't see a lot of overt hate towards homosexual individuals in these threads.  People may assume it's there, but I'm not sure it's as present as some believe.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with hating a gay pride parade.  Hating the people in it? Different story, and that distinction should be made.
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« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2012, 12:47:26 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?
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« Reply #121 on: May 25, 2012, 12:48:14 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

"Same-sex attracted" plainly means exactly what it says. I suppose you would prefer the slang term "gay". Yet is there any word more redolent of Orwellian newspeak?
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« Reply #122 on: May 25, 2012, 12:49:22 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.
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« Reply #123 on: May 25, 2012, 01:14:24 PM »

but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly,

It's an academic field that requires a lot of sacrifice and hard work to get into, but somebody has to do such studies.

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« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2012, 01:50:16 PM »

Knowing about it and proudly parading in support of it are two different things.  We all are sinners, some of us far worse than any homosexual.  The issue at hand is do we repent of our sin and try to do better, or are we proud of our sin and flaunt it and try to convince others that it is all OK and they should embrace our sin.

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?
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« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2012, 02:02:49 PM »

This goes beyond simply disagreeing with someone.

How do you figure? 

Quote
People who disagree with the parade are essentially suggesting (if not outright declaring) that the state should enforce their view over other people.
 

I can't speak for others, but I am saying that the state should respect the wishes of the citizens of the city, if they are asked not to have the parade there. The state officials are there to serve the people, not the special interests.

Quote
If the state ought to be the enforcer of moral opinions, I'd be curious whom you as a Copt prefer: Justinian or the Islamists?
 

The difference, again, is that gay people are trying to force a political agenda that undermines the religion and morals of the majority. Unless you yourself are an Islamist, you can't really say that there is an example of the same going on with the Copts, as the Copts are trying to live their lives without being killed or bullied, not to force other people to accept Christianity or treat Copts better than Muslims, etc. If Copts were attempting to force Muslims to accept Christianity as being just as good or better than Islam, then you might have a point to make, but that's not really what's going on. What's actually going on is that they're trying to stop their daughters from being kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam, their churches and monasteries from being burnt down and destroyed, their people from being murdered just for being Copts, etc. And you know what? When any of those things happen to gay people, it's just as wrong as when they happen to Copts. But it doesn't mean that this is in any way a useful comparison.

Quote
Then there is the issue that attacks on homosexuality are almost always accompanied with the sky is falling rhetoric.  This makes no sense considering that at the most homosexuals are a tiny percentage of the population.
 

When that tiny percentage of the population can and do use their political clout (which is out of proportion with their actual numbers) to strike down constitutional laws that have been passed by the majority of the people (as in the 30-something states that have passed laws defining marriage to the exclusion of homosexuality), I think it is right to be concerned.

Quote
At least where I live there are certainly more alcoholics.  Yet priests bless vodka in Easter baskets without batting an eyelash.  Corruption (and the accompanying sins of greed, telling lies) is a daily part of life.  The Orthodox Church is mostly silent on the issue.
 

What your priests do is certainly a matter of some concern if you feel it to be against the rule of your church. As I'm not EO, I really can't comment on that. I don't think any Coptic priest would bless such things, but the Copts seem to have a different (and altogether much more strict) view on alcohol than the EO.

Quote
So in this vehement condemnation of homosexuality there is a lot more involved than a mere disagreement over behavior.  

It does not seem that way to me, but as you see it, sure.
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« Reply #126 on: May 25, 2012, 02:11:16 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.

Well, not all of us can live in a cabin in the wilderness like you apparently. The information I relayed in the other thread was entirely gleaned from one Salon.com article. Salon ain't exactly "gayporn.com".

But adolescent personal attacks are easier for you than arguments, I see.
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« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2012, 02:20:10 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

"Same-sex attracted" plainly means exactly what it says. I suppose you would prefer the slang term "gay". Yet is there any word more redolent of Orwellian newspeak?

Actually I prefer the term homosexual. 
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« Reply #128 on: May 25, 2012, 02:22:19 PM »

but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly,

It's an academic field that requires a lot of sacrifice and hard work to get into, but somebody has to do such studies.



Lol, academia is full of it. A few months ago I was in one of the Harvard University libraries with some friends, and just for kicks we decided to check out the books in the shelves behind our table:

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« Reply #129 on: May 25, 2012, 02:22:58 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.

Well, not all of us can live in a cabin in the wilderness like you apparently. The information I relayed in the other thread was entirely gleaned from one Salon.com article. Salon ain't exactly "gayporn.com".

But adolescent personal attacks are easier for you than arguments, I see.

Who said I live in a cabin?  I just tend not to study up on my pornography.

I also find it funny that you criticize me for engaging in "adolescent personal attacks" within what is more or less an adolescent personal attack.
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« Reply #130 on: May 25, 2012, 02:29:22 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

I draw a deliberate distinction between same-sex attraction (a tendency towards a passion) and gay or homosexual (acting upon and/or embracing said tendency). I don't think it's fair to lump together a person who is struggling against a passion and a person who celebrates the same passion. Especially when it's a hot-button passion like same-sex attraction.
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« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2012, 02:30:46 PM »

don't tend to be lengthy because everyone piles on the hate for homosexuals.

Hate for homosexual individuals, or hate for the open promotion and encouragement to accept perversion?

Besides, "hate" is a very strong word and is brandished far too lightly in discussions on this subject.

I can't tell if you misunderstood my point, which wasn't worded too well, or not.  I'm basically in agreement, as I don't see a lot of overt hate towards homosexual individuals in these threads.  People may assume it's there, but I'm not sure it's as present as some believe.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with hating a gay pride parade.  Hating the people in it? Different story, and that distinction should be made.

I think we agree.

(I just think the word "hate" is thrown around a bit too easily these days, about any number of issues.)
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« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2012, 02:32:58 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

I draw a deliberate distinction between same-sex attraction (a tendency towards a passion) and gay or homosexual (acting upon and/or embracing said tendency).

Yes, a ludicrous distinction; or do you also distinguish between opposite-sex attraction and straight or heterosexual[i/].
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« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2012, 02:34:18 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.

Well, not all of us can live in a cabin in the wilderness like you apparently. The information I relayed in the other thread was entirely gleaned from one Salon.com article. Salon ain't exactly "gayporn.com".

But adolescent personal attacks are easier for you than arguments, I see.

Who said I live in a cabin?  I just tend not to study up on my pornography.

I also find it funny that you criticize me for engaging in "adolescent personal attacks" within what is more or less an adolescent personal attack.

The next time you intimate that I look at pornography, I shall report your post. You can bank on it.
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« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2012, 02:40:49 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

I draw a deliberate distinction between same-sex attraction (a tendency towards a passion) and gay or homosexual (acting upon and/or embracing said tendency).

Yes, a ludicrous distinction; or do you also distinguish between opposite-sex attraction and straight or heterosexual[i/].

Homosexual and heterosexual both originally referred to hypersexual disorders, so a distinction could indeed be drawn, but that aside...

Homosexual and gay have connotations that don't accurately encompass the chastity of a person who is struggling with same-sex attraction. So I call it same-sex attraction, because it does not have negative connotations that a struggling Orthodox person would not want to be associated with.

Their cross is heavy enough, we don't need to slander them on top of it.
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« Reply #135 on: May 25, 2012, 03:31:03 PM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.

Well, not all of us can live in a cabin in the wilderness like you apparently. The information I relayed in the other thread was entirely gleaned from one Salon.com article. Salon ain't exactly "gayporn.com".

But adolescent personal attacks are easier for you than arguments, I see.

Who said I live in a cabin?  I just tend not to study up on my pornography.

I also find it funny that you criticize me for engaging in "adolescent personal attacks" within what is more or less an adolescent personal attack.

The next time you intimate that I look at pornography, I shall report your post. You can bank on it.

Go right ahead; I do not care in the least.
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« Reply #136 on: May 25, 2012, 03:31:52 PM »

But nobody is urging that night clubs be closed down.  Nobody is suggesting that the sale of vodka be banned.  Nobody (or very few) would support a Chinese style firewall to block all internet porn.

I think it's because those Pandora's boxes have already been opened. Homosexuality is still considered unacceptable by most, and as it seems we still have the ability to do something about it, people are working on that issue with the most tenacity. It's a lot easier to nip it in the bud than to deal with these ingrained issues which may, admittedly, affect a lot more people. But it's better than surrendering yet another issue.

And I think Isa has a good point. One slice of pie is not gluttony. One drink of vodka is not drunkenness. But homosexual activity is never acceptable in any form, so it's not the same thing.

People like to project rigid morality only in situations that will never personally affect them.

So would you surprised to know there are same-sex attracted Orthodox who oppose the gay rights movement?

Newspeak is alive and well on this forum, as well as CAF, I see.

I draw a deliberate distinction between same-sex attraction (a tendency towards a passion) and gay or homosexual (acting upon and/or embracing said tendency).

Yes, a ludicrous distinction; or do you also distinguish between opposite-sex attraction and straight or heterosexual[i/].

Homosexual and heterosexual both originally referred to hypersexual disorders, so a distinction could indeed be drawn, but that aside...

Homosexual and gay have connotations that don't accurately encompass the chastity of a person who is struggling with same-sex attraction. So I call it same-sex attraction, because it does not have negative connotations that a struggling Orthodox person would not want to be associated with.

Their cross is heavy enough, we don't need to slander them on top of it.

So, basically, you go around assuming gay people are all engaging in sex, while you don't assume the same of straight people?
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« Reply #137 on: May 25, 2012, 05:19:25 PM »

"Gay" becomes an identifier for a person, a restrictive label that identifies them as someone who is attracted to the same gender. It leaves no opportunity or gap for repentance and progress towards stopping lust. The Orthodox understanding does not identify people as "gay" or "straight". I do not refer to people who have lied as "liars" or people who have stolen as "thieves." A person is not their sins. Therefore, "same-sex attractions" is more appropriate within an Orthodox understanding. The Church recognizes that everyone has their temptations, and anyone can be attracted to a person of their same gender. To deny this would be dangerous as it leads to a lack of repentance from people who identify as "straight" if they may be attracted in some incident to a person of the same gender.

And, frankly, debating his verbiage is silly. Let the man say it how he wants, whats the big deal?
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« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2012, 05:43:07 PM »

And, frankly, debating his verbiage is silly. Let the man say it how he wants, whats the big deal?

That would be nice, but a couple of the terms that I have heard used at work would probably get a green meatball.
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« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2012, 06:16:40 PM »

Well, definetly within the boundaries of appropriateness, what he said wasn't rude in the slightest.
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« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2012, 06:49:38 PM »

Well, definetly within the boundaries of appropriateness, what he said wasn't rude in the slightest.

I mostly find the term objectionable because of the way it's used on CAF

EDIT: CAF being the first place I ever encountered it, and one of the only.
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« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2012, 07:08:27 PM »

Firstly, and I may be showing my ignorance here, but what is CAF?

Secondly, I don't see how saying "same-sex attractions" is offensive at all. It is a fact. The truth.
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« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2012, 07:10:44 PM »

Firstly, and I may be showing my ignorance here, but what is CAF?

Secondly, I don't see how saying "same-sex attractions" is offensive at all. It is a fact. The truth.

CAF is the Catholic Answers Forum, and a major part of the offense is that nearly any time someone says on that forum that they are gay, a host of persons comes along telling them to use "same-sex attracted." 
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« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2012, 07:17:11 PM »

Knowing about it and proudly parading in support of it are two different things.  We all are sinners, some of us far worse than any homosexual.  The issue at hand is do we repent of our sin and try to do better, or are we proud of our sin and flaunt it and try to convince others that it is all OK and they should embrace our sin.

The ones that are parading their "sin" probably don't see it as such.
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« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2012, 07:21:06 PM »

Quote
CAF is the Catholic Answers Forum, and a major part of the offense is that nearly any time someone says on that forum that they are gay, a host of persons comes along telling them to use "same-sex attracted."  

While that may be a tad bit too emphatic, there is nothing wrong with the term. Proclaiming that one is gay leaves no room for moving past the lust which is perverse. It is making a concrete statement and an identifier. However, to be attracted to the same sex is different. But to get into the semantics is overboard and debating it is a waste of time. What is one really trying to accomplish by it?

The devil is in the details.
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« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2012, 07:38:30 PM »

Quote
CAF is the Catholic Answers Forum, and a major part of the offense is that nearly any time someone says on that forum that they are gay, a host of persons comes along telling them to use "same-sex attracted."  

While that may be a tad bit too emphatic, there is nothing wrong with the term. Proclaiming that one is gay leaves no room for moving past the lust which is perverse. It is making a concrete statement and an identifier. However, to be attracted to the same sex is different. But to get into the semantics is overboard and debating it is a waste of time. What is one really trying to accomplish by it?

The devil is in the details.

What is wrong with concrete statements?  What is wrong with identifiers?  "Same-sex attracted" is no less a concrete statement and identifier than "gay" or "homosexual."  All three say "That person is attracted to people of the same sex."  And is "gay" really synonymous with "lust"?
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« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2012, 07:43:56 PM »

Quote from: JamesRottnek
What is wrong with concrete statements?  What is wrong with identifiers?  "Same-sex attracted" is no less a concrete statement and identifier than "gay" or "homosexual."  All three say "That person is attracted to people of the same sex."  And is "gay" really synonymous with "lust"?

In the minds of some people, yes, it is.  Roll Eyes

Because straight people never do these things...  Tongue
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« Reply #147 on: May 25, 2012, 08:02:41 PM »

Quote
CAF is the Catholic Answers Forum, and a major part of the offense is that nearly any time someone says on that forum that they are gay, a host of persons comes along telling them to use "same-sex attracted."  

While that may be a tad bit too emphatic, there is nothing wrong with the term. Proclaiming that one is gay leaves no room for moving past the lust which is perverse. It is making a concrete statement and an identifier. However, to be attracted to the same sex is different. But to get into the semantics is overboard and debating it is a waste of time. What is one really trying to accomplish by it?

The devil is in the details.

What is wrong with concrete statements?  What is wrong with identifiers?  "Same-sex attracted" is no less a concrete statement and identifier than "gay" or "homosexual."  All three say "That person is attracted to people of the same sex."  And is "gay" really synonymous with "lust"?
Because traditionally the Church does not believe in such things as "homosexuality" or "heterosexuality." People may tend certain directions, but it is open to realize that all people may be tempted to perversions. It is this behavior that allows for proper repentance, rather than a person who identifies as "heterosexual" denying to themselves that they were indeed attracted to a person of the same gender in some situation and thus not repenting. Likewise, being "homosexual" has quite a different connotation behind it than the action of being attracted to the same sex. Our sins do not define us. They are our actions, not us. Like I said, this is a petty debate and not worth the time. If they do have the same meaning, then why would you object to him using it?

Quote
In the minds of some people, yes, it is.  

Because straight people never do these things...  
If you do not have the capability to answer to my posts in response to you, I request that you do not make snide remarks to jab that have no value.
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« Reply #148 on: May 25, 2012, 08:07:59 PM »

Quote
CAF is the Catholic Answers Forum, and a major part of the offense is that nearly any time someone says on that forum that they are gay, a host of persons comes along telling them to use "same-sex attracted."  

While that may be a tad bit too emphatic, there is nothing wrong with the term. Proclaiming that one is gay leaves no room for moving past the lust which is perverse. It is making a concrete statement and an identifier. However, to be attracted to the same sex is different. But to get into the semantics is overboard and debating it is a waste of time. What is one really trying to accomplish by it?

The devil is in the details.

As much as I hate political correctness, I have to agree that "same sex attracted" has its use, particularly since I do not define the "sin" of homosexuality in the same way that most do. 
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« Reply #149 on: May 25, 2012, 09:14:48 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh
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« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2012, 09:58:59 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Speak for yourself. Speed-eating contests rather disgust me. Homosexuals celebrating the fact that they no longer need to hide in the shadows or fear for their lives does not.
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« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2012, 10:23:47 PM »

I suppose you do have a point, Stavros. After all, nothing says "happy to be alive" like public nudity, paper mache phalluses, drag queens, and public sex acts. That's why we see so much of that type of thing at Veteran's Day parades and such. Does everyone remember when the giant sex toy balloon was featured in the Macy's Day Parade last year? Oh, right...that never happened, just like how in reality these "pride" parades aren't about being thankful for being able to be gay without being jailed or killed, but about reveling in the (ahem) gay culture and its great contributions to the world by finding the most obnoxious forms of gay identity, turning them up to 11, and parading them down the street in assless chaps.
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« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2012, 10:48:00 PM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Who are you kidding?

Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.
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« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2012, 11:03:33 PM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Just like the last time you brought up all this extraneous nonsense, I'm not falling for it. If these things bother you so much, start a thread about them where you can explain your position and we can talk about them.

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Who are you kidding?


I could ask you the same thing, if I cared...but really, it's pretty obvious what you're hoping to accomplish with these tangential issues. Obvious and boring.

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Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

That's right. I have to prove to the internet that I'm not gay. You caught me. Roll Eyes

From now on, I'm only using restrooms with this sign, just so everybody will know that I love the ladies:



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« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2012, 11:14:07 PM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Who are you kidding?

Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

Man, can't you do anything other than recycle the same stupid argument time and time again?  Nightclubs are zoned to certain parts of town. Prostitution is illegal and persecuted in most places.  Strip joints and topless beaches are often in remote places or the "seedy" parts of town.  Your point is lost in its utter stupidity.  None of this has ANYTHING to do with homosexuals parading down the middle of a city.  GO YOU GET IT NOW?  Most people, even the most base sinners, do not parade their sin down Mainstreet.  And if they did, they would most likely be arrested.  Why do we need special rights for the queers?  This is the face of true evil.  And the Scriptures have forwarned of it.  In the last days, what is good will seen as evil, and what is evil will be seen as good.  This has been fulfilled so many times on this forum.  Thanks for being one of the flag wavers for the coming apostasy.
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« Reply #155 on: May 25, 2012, 11:21:49 PM »

I'm surprised people in the gay community aren't more vocal in their opposition to these kind of lewd displays in the name of 'gay pride'. Surely homosexuals who simply want to get on with their lives like the rest of society consider such parades counterproductive to their cause by cheapening it and reinforcing all the negative stereotypes promoted by homophobes.
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« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2012, 11:53:13 PM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Who are you kidding?

Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

Man, can't you do anything other than recycle the same stupid argument time and time again?  Nightclubs are zoned to certain parts of town. Prostitution is illegal and persecuted in most places.  Strip joints and topless beaches are often in remote places or the "seedy" parts of town.  Your point is lost in its utter stupidity.  None of this has ANYTHING to do with homosexuals parading down the middle of a city.  GO YOU GET IT NOW?  Most people, even the most base sinners, do not parade their sin down Mainstreet.  And if they did, they would most likely be arrested.  Why do we need special rights for the queers?  This is the face of true evil.  And the Scriptures have forwarned of it.  In the last days, what is good will seen as evil, and what is evil will be seen as good.  This has been fulfilled so many times on this forum.  Thanks for being one of the flag wavers for the coming apostasy.

And your own base need such as anger. Proving exactly what I said.

Straight people don't count, I guess. And there is no coming apostasy, unless you're a Jack Chick loon.

Calm down. You can't throw a tantrum every time someone has a different idea than you. Do you enjoy being a walking stereotype?
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« Reply #157 on: May 26, 2012, 12:00:42 AM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Just like the last time you brought up all this extraneous nonsense, I'm not falling for it. If these things bother you so much, start a thread about them where you can explain your position and we can talk about them.

Quote
Who are you kidding?


I could ask you the same thing, if I cared...but really, it's pretty obvious what you're hoping to accomplish with these tangential issues. Obvious and boring.

Quote
Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

That's right. I have to prove to the internet that I'm not gay. You caught me. Roll Eyes

From now on, I'm only using restrooms with this sign, just so everybody will know that I love the ladies:



IS IT WORKING YET? PLEASE, INTERNET. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE ME.

It is obvious that it's not extraneous or boring to you at all. And it's not nonsense, because apparently you do think straight people have more free speech rights than gays. Didn't know people lose their rights just because you don't like them.

That tells me a lot about you, and how you'd like to treat others if you could.

I don't know, I just don't throw a fit every time I see a gay person walking around. I just ignore them; I've got my own sins to worry about.

I guess you'll be all clean on Judgement Day. I never knew it was that easy.
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« Reply #158 on: May 26, 2012, 12:20:29 AM »

It is obvious that it's not extraneous or boring to you at all. And it's not nonsense, because apparently you do think straight people have more free speech rights than gays. Didn't know people lose their rights just because you don't like them.

That tells me a lot about you, and how you'd like to treat others if you could.

I don't know, I just don't throw a fit every time I see a gay person walking around. I just ignore them; I've got my own sins to worry about.

I guess you'll be all clean on Judgement Day. I never knew it was that easy.

A reply this brilliant deserves a response far beyond my capabilities, so here you go.
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« Reply #159 on: May 26, 2012, 12:24:54 AM »

I'm quite glad there is no gay strip clubs, nightclubs or prostition near me. Think of the children.
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« Reply #160 on: May 26, 2012, 12:26:17 AM »

And the HIV infected population (hetero and homo) even tinier, and yet the chattering class haven't bat an eye screaming that everything should be stopped and dropped, and turned around to cater to the demands of the AIDS lobby.

And?  Certainly AIDS education and prevention is a worthy cause.  With a bit of education you can reduce your chances of contracting AIDS to basically zero. 


Well please inform the "gay community" that. Alas HIV/AIDS centers that cater to gay men typically center their "prevention" efforts on giving men plenty of rubbers and lube to bring on their way to the park or club or bath house.

Is it any wonder that men who have sex with men are still massively overrepresented in HIV infections?

Is it any wonder that self-righteous religious people know a massive amount about gay porn?

If this is an attempt at an ad hominem  insult, you've failed. What's does gay porn have to do with any of this?

Or, I was referencing another thread, in which you showed an expert level of knowledge about homosexual pornography, which I find to be somewhat at odds with your great condemnation of homosexuality; but perhaps I just think studying pornography is a bit unseemly, maybe I'm a prude.

Well, not all of us can live in a cabin in the wilderness like you apparently. The information I relayed in the other thread was entirely gleaned from one Salon.com article. Salon ain't exactly "gayporn.com".

But adolescent personal attacks are easier for you than arguments, I see.

Who said I live in a cabin?  I just tend not to study up on my pornography.

I also find it funny that you criticize me for engaging in "adolescent personal attacks" within what is more or less an adolescent personal attack.

The next time you intimate that I look at pornography, I shall report your post. You can bank on it.

Go right ahead; I do not care in the least.
Those insights, I am sure, were gleaned from some confession manual. Perhaps Ligouri's .
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« Reply #161 on: May 26, 2012, 12:26:17 AM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Who are you kidding?

Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

Man, can't you do anything other than recycle the same stupid argument time and time again?  Nightclubs are zoned to certain parts of town. Prostitution is illegal and persecuted in most places.  Strip joints and topless beaches are often in remote places or the "seedy" parts of town.  Your point is lost in its utter stupidity.  None of this has ANYTHING to do with homosexuals parading down the middle of a city.  GO YOU GET IT NOW?  Most people, even the most base sinners, do not parade their sin down Mainstreet.  And if they did, they would most likely be arrested.  Why do we need special rights for the queers?  This is the face of true evil.  And the Scriptures have forwarned of it.  In the last days, what is good will seen as evil, and what is evil will be seen as good.  This has been fulfilled so many times on this forum.  Thanks for being one of the flag wavers for the coming apostasy.
What's good about this apostasy however, is that it always happens to other people Shocked
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« Reply #162 on: May 26, 2012, 01:17:29 AM »

According to our Orthodox canons, when a person commits a homosexual act how many years must they wait before taking  the Eucharist?   Huh

Now how about this one?  How many years if any, must a person wait after acting like a glutton at a pie eating contest? Huh

« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 01:20:10 AM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2012, 01:19:13 AM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Just like the last time you brought up all this extraneous nonsense, I'm not falling for it. If these things bother you so much, start a thread about them where you can explain your position and we can talk about them.

Quote
Who are you kidding?


I could ask you the same thing, if I cared...but really, it's pretty obvious what you're hoping to accomplish with these tangential issues. Obvious and boring.

Quote
Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

That's right. I have to prove to the internet that I'm not gay. You caught me. Roll Eyes

From now on, I'm only using restrooms with this sign, just so everybody will know that I love the ladies:



IS IT WORKING YET? PLEASE, INTERNET. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE ME.

It is obvious that it's not extraneous or boring to you at all. And it's not nonsense, because apparently you do think straight people have more free speech rights than gays. Didn't know people lose their rights just because you don't like them.

That tells me a lot about you, and how you'd like to treat others if you could.

I don't know, I just don't throw a fit every time I see a gay person walking around. I just ignore them; I've got my own sins to worry about.

I guess you'll be all clean on Judgement Day. I never knew it was that easy.
Don't bother, I would say. Dzeremi is a righteous man! To prove it he'll say, as he has already, IIRC, he's the worst sinner. Or at least worse than the homosexuals. QED
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« Reply #164 on: May 26, 2012, 02:08:36 AM »

Yeah, because straight people never commit sexual sin. There are no nightclubs, there is no prostitution, there are no strip joints, there are no topless beaches, and everybody is a virgin on their wedding night.

Who are you kidding?

Oh, you offended a straight man's insecurity, he's got to prove something now.

Man, can't you do anything other than recycle the same stupid argument time and time again?  Nightclubs are zoned to certain parts of town. Prostitution is illegal and persecuted in most places.  Strip joints and topless beaches are often in remote places or the "seedy" parts of town.  Your point is lost in its utter stupidity.  None of this has ANYTHING to do with homosexuals parading down the middle of a city.  GO YOU GET IT NOW?  Most people, even the most base sinners, do not parade their sin down Mainstreet.  And if they did, they would most likely be arrested.  Why do we need special rights for the queers?  This is the face of true evil.  And the Scriptures have forwarned of it.  In the last days, what is good will seen as evil, and what is evil will be seen as good.  This has been fulfilled so many times on this forum.  Thanks for being one of the flag wavers for the coming apostasy.

And your own base need such as anger. Proving exactly what I said.

Straight people don't count, I guess. And there is no coming apostasy, unless you're a Jack Chick loon.

Calm down. You can't throw a tantrum every time someone has a different idea than you. Do you enjoy being a walking stereotype?
No coming apostasy?

I guess my priest reads Jack Chick. As do most monks. And bishops. And, well, any Orthodox theologian. Jack Chick must be really old.

Quote
It is obvious that it's not extraneous or boring to you at all. And it's not nonsense, because apparently you do think straight people have more free speech rights than gays. Didn't know people lose their rights just because you don't like them.
Straight people with more rights than gays? I have NEVER seen the level of public sexual immorality higher than at a a gay pride parade. Proud of being gay? Proud of a perversion? That doesn't speak to you? Throw away all of the disgusting acts commited in public, but being proud of ones sin? And thats okay?

Oh dear, Antonis must think being gay is a sin, oh dear, he must think that only gays lust. On the one hand you say you only concern yourself with your sin, then on the other accuse people of such things? Ach.

In the introduction of the print of The Ladder of Divine Ascent by the monks of Holy Transfiguration monastery, their forward contains this, which I believe effectively describes the issue.

"If you do not "walk in the councel of the ungodly" today, or "sit in the seat of the pestilent," you are told that you do not have love. And if you do not consort and mingle with the nations, that is, the heretics and pagans, you are told that you do not have humility, but rather pride and triumph in your faith. Thus, under the slogans of love and humility, the Cross of the Savior is trodden underfoot and the Name of the Lord is blasphemed among the nations..."
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« Reply #165 on: May 26, 2012, 02:32:37 AM »

According to our Orthodox canons, when a person commits a homosexual act how many years must they wait before taking  the Eucharist?   Huh

Now how about this one?  How many years if any, must a person wait after acting like a glutton at a pie eating contest? Huh


That's a funny one. about as many as when a wife  performs oral sex to her husband. Or the other way around.
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« Reply #166 on: May 26, 2012, 02:40:19 AM »

No coming apostasy?

I guess my priest reads Jack Chick. As do most monks. And bishops. And, well, any Orthodox theologian. Jack Chick must be really old.

Considering he wrote the Book of Revelation, he would have to be.

I still find it odd that some have no qualms about defending gay pride parades on here, purportedly from an Orthodox perspective.
Sure, defend homosexuals, or defend the legal right to parade, but gay pride parades?  

I may have strong leanings towards capital punishment, but I'm wrong, and I will not argue for it. Especially on here.
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« Reply #167 on: May 26, 2012, 02:49:02 AM »

I'm surprised people in the gay community aren't more vocal in their opposition to these kind of lewd displays in the name of 'gay pride'. Surely homosexuals who simply want to get on with their lives like the rest of society consider such parades counterproductive to their cause by cheapening it and reinforcing all the negative stereotypes promoted by homophobes.

As am I.  Some I know are beginning to put up more resistance though.  Of course they happen to be tactful, considerate people, so they don't respond as I would.  Still, they're deeply embarrassed by these type of things and feel they contribute negatively in all of the ways you mentioned.

Maybe some on here would like to call them big, mean, bigots too, because they don't support gay pride parades.  Or maybe they need to come out of the straight closet, if they're so concerned about gay pride parades.
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« Reply #168 on: May 26, 2012, 02:52:20 AM »

I just want to make clear my stance.

I am against all parades.

Again, they are all gay.

Homosexual men might be the bedrock for all that passes for culture arond here, whether "East" or "West". But parades have never been part of their finest moments, except for the stuff they choreographed for Hitler or Stalin or Mao or whoever is the leader of North Korea right now.

The fascists seem to be the only people who understand how to really pull off a parade.
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« Reply #169 on: May 26, 2012, 02:54:23 AM »

Macy Day Parade is awesome.

Stop your liberal nonsense.
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« Reply #170 on: May 26, 2012, 02:58:22 AM »

Macy Day Parade is awesome.

Stop your liberal nonsense.

You better check your closets. What is gayer than Macy's? Barnie's?

The only thing gayer than [redacted homosexual act] is watching a parade.

The only thing gayer than watching a parade is watching it on TV.

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« Reply #171 on: May 26, 2012, 03:03:19 AM »

I have nothing against gay parades of any sort, until they have Turbo Man.

I own quite a bit of Macy's apparel. They are like an upscale JCPennys.
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« Reply #172 on: May 26, 2012, 03:05:34 AM »

I just want to make clear my stance.

I am against all parades.

Again, they are all gay.

Homosexual men might be the bedrock for all that passes for culture arond here, whether "East" or "West". But parades have never been part of their finest moments, except for the stuff they choreographed for Hitler or Stalin or Mao or whoever is the leader of North Korea right now.

The fascists seem to be the only people who understand how to really pull off a parade.

Heavy dose of awesome found in above posting.
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« Reply #173 on: May 26, 2012, 03:26:32 AM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Then that says more about those who are offended by homosexuals by not by gluttons; the Church teaches that those engaged in homosexual sex are engaging in sin, it also teaches that gluttons are engaging in sin.  Why should you be offended by one person's sin but not another?
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« Reply #174 on: May 26, 2012, 07:48:08 AM »

Quote
Most people, even the most base sinners, do not parade their sin down Mainstreet.

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Quote
According to our Orthodox canons, when a person commits a homosexual act how many years must they wait before taking the Eucharist?   

Now how about this one?  How many years if any, must a person wait after acting like a glutton at a pie eating contest? 

Zenovia, consider for one second that not one of these people participating in the gay parade gives a damn about Orthodox religious canons.
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« Reply #175 on: May 26, 2012, 07:59:17 AM »

Quote
I suppose you do have a point, Stavros. After all, nothing says "happy to be alive" like public nudity, paper mache phalluses, drag queens, and public sex acts.

I guess I can't argue with that, dzheremi, as your insights into what occurs at gay parades seem to far outshine my own. I have never been to one, myself. But public sex acts? Really?? I suspect you might be stretching the truth just a little...
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« Reply #176 on: May 26, 2012, 09:58:13 AM »

 Roll Eyes Seriously? You're seriously going to make me back this up...? You can't just take my word for it? Alright, then...

Look, you can call naked people pawing at each other and sucking on each other's genitals something other than what it is, but if it's the sort of thing that would normally cost you an extra $19.95 per month from Playboy TV or whatever (or get you arrested, if you're not gay and at a "pride parade"), then you're only fooling yourself. You know what they say about being careful what you wish for? Well, here you go (warning: Explicit sexual content). For those of you who would rather have a description (I'm only linking because, well, seeing is believing, and Stavro thinks I'm making this all up), it's a news story from The Bay Area Reporter, a gay and lesbian news source based in San Francisco, reporting on police crackdowns on public sex acts at the gay pride parade in San Francisco. With photo.

Lord have mercy. Sad
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« Reply #177 on: May 26, 2012, 10:34:52 AM »

Roll Eyes Seriously? You're seriously going to make me back this up...? You can't just take my word for it? Alright, then...

Look, you can call naked people pawing at each other and sucking on each other's genitals something other than what it is, but if it's the sort of thing that would normally cost you an extra $19.95 per month from Playboy TV or whatever (or get you arrested, if you're not gay and at a "pride parade"), then you're only fooling yourself. You know what they say about being careful what you wish for? Well, here you go (warning: Explicit sexual content). For those of you who would rather have a description (I'm only linking because, well, seeing is believing, and Stavro thinks I'm making this all up), it's a news story from The Bay Area Reporter, a gay and lesbian news source based in San Francisco, reporting on police crackdowns on public sex acts at the gay pride parade in San Francisco. With photo.

Lord have mercy. Sad

Okay, okay... I'll pass on visiting the link, but I'll take your word on it. Perhaps I am being a bit naive regarding what takes place at gay parades, but I can only assume that whatever transpired at this particular event is not the norm. I mean, lewd public behavior is unacceptable no matter the context, not to mention illegal. And alas, no matter the public event, there always seem to be a few idiots that ruin it for everyone else. I am a supporter of freedom and equal rights, but no one should be subjected to seeing other people have sex in public, homosexual or otherwise!
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« Reply #178 on: May 26, 2012, 10:48:00 AM »

Unfortunately, Stavro, the story at the link is about investigative hearings that had to be held because such behavior is actually quite common. Hence the "crackdown" mentioned in the story. You don't really crack down on things that aren't out of control, and once it's to the point where even gay news outlets are reporting it, it's safe to assume that it is a real problem, not just one or two isolated incidents. (Though you're right -- neither is it every single person who would attend such things.)
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« Reply #179 on: May 26, 2012, 10:50:25 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.
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« Reply #180 on: May 26, 2012, 10:57:37 AM »

And is it right to justify people's sins, or enable them to destroy themselves?

If someone feels that speaking out is judgmental, then say nothing. But to actually defend the sinful actions of others is most disquieting. Encouraging or enabling others to sin is itself a sin, I am told, and is certainly not loving.
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« Reply #181 on: May 26, 2012, 11:24:44 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.
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« Reply #182 on: May 26, 2012, 11:43:12 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.
That wouldn't even fly in the US, let alone in Serbia, which has a history of Church-State symphonia.
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« Reply #183 on: May 26, 2012, 12:38:42 PM »

From the linked article:

 "By and large, people come to Up Your Alley to enjoy a sense of local leather community. There are opportunities for people to enjoy themselves at the fair in many other ways, including hanging out with friends, having a drink, or watching a flogging session."

Well, thank goodness there are family friendly activities like these going on along with the public sex acts...


---

Every year the same problems recur on the outer part of Cape Cod near Provincetown in my home of Massachusetts. Families venture out on the sand dunes and are scandalized by the sight of gay orgies and other activities. The police get many complaints, and every year tell the newspapers that they intend to crack down on the activity, yet nothing seems to get done.

It's mean to interfere with all that "pride", I guess.
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« Reply #184 on: May 26, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.
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« Reply #185 on: May 26, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.

Quote
So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want? 

Yes, you can. It's happening. And it's not going away. Suck it up.
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« Reply #186 on: May 26, 2012, 03:41:29 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want?  Not to Goodwin this thread, but that argument did not hold up in Nuremberg, even though some of those that were hung did not think that they did anything wrong, but were actually doing the World a favor.

Quote
So, as long as I don't think that it is a sin, I can do whatever I want? 

Yes, you can. It's happening. And it's not going away. Suck it up.

If only this was true . . .
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« Reply #187 on: May 26, 2012, 03:52:46 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Then that says more about those who are offended by homosexuals by not by gluttons; the Church teaches that those engaged in homosexual sex are engaging in sin, it also teaches that gluttons are engaging in sin.  Why should you be offended by one person's sin but not another?

Human beings have pride, and because of that we are all sinners.  There are sins though that are considered more severe by the Church.  If a person isn't willing to acknowledge what they are doing is a sin, then how can they repent for it, and if they don't repent, then how can God forgive them?  Wouldn't they be sinning against the Holy Spirit?   Huh

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« Reply #188 on: May 26, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, Punch, these people probably do not see it as parading their "sins" but as parading their freedom to express themselves and being proud of who they are.

Does it matter how they view what they're doing? Most sins are justified in the minds of the people who commit them.

I'm trying to point out that in a secular context, freedom is freedom. From their perspective, they have nothing to feel guilty about. Outside of the Church is not the same as inside the Church.

We don't have absolute freedom though. As George Washington wisely observed, such freedom is only good for a moral and religious people, because they will self-govern.

When that goes out the window, society can curtail the freedom of people to engage in activities it deems to be wrong. That goes for Serbians and Americans alike.

But as I said, if we as individual Orthodox Christians don't want to do that, we should say nothing at all. To encourage people in their sin is itself a sin. We should not give comfort to them in their sin, but show them and beckon them to a better way of life, one that exalts their humanity rather than degrades it.
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« Reply #189 on: May 26, 2012, 04:26:56 PM »

Well, wait a minute it, though...if you're going to start asking questions like that, then a corollary question should be asked: What do you expect Orthodox Christians to do about it? Are they supposed to support the parade? Are they supposed to say "Oh, isn't that nice how these people are expressing their pride in their sexual orientation? Yay, freedom!"? I agree that there is a lot to be done to support modesty in the public square that needn't involve this particular event at all, but this is the event that they're faced with. When they tried to have such a parade in Moscow a little while ago, the head of the Orthodox there had a press conference and said (I'm paraphrasing from Fr. Josiah Trennam's podcast "The Arena") "We are Orthodox Christians and this is a Christian country, and we love all of our citizens, and when you love someone you don't encourage them to sin." That is a reasonable position, I think. I think it is unreasonable to expect Orthodox Christians, or any Christians, to suppress their consciences so that gay people can have parades around the world. Enough. There is already too much immodesty in the world, from both gays and straights, but to have a parade to celebrate it...I just don't see why any Christian should be made to feel bad for standing up and saying "I do not support this, and I don't want it in my city". It doesn't say you can't be gay and Serbian or you can't be proud of being gay, it says let's not have a parade to glorify immorality and un-Christian lifestyles. (And I have been, much to my shame but also against my will and without my foreknowledge, to the mother of all gay pride parades in San Francisco, CA...trust me when I tell you that if the Serbian parade would be even 1/10th of what the SF parade is, NO PERSON OF ANY ORIENTATION, sexual or religious or otherwise, should be "proud" of it.)

Do you support prohibiting pie eating contests as well, seeing as how gluttony is a sin?

But the gluttons are not offending anyone so your correlation is not exactly accurate.   Huh

Then that says more about those who are offended by homosexuals by not by gluttons; the Church teaches that those engaged in homosexual sex are engaging in sin, it also teaches that gluttons are engaging in sin.  Why should you be offended by one person's sin but not another?

Human beings have pride, and because of that we are all sinners.  There are sins though that are considered more severe by the Church.  If a person isn't willing to acknowledge what they are doing is a sin, then how can they repent for it, and if they don't repent, then how can God forgive them?  Wouldn't they be sinning against the Holy Spirit?   Huh

So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 

There is actually a parallel involving parades to another issue.  I absolutely abhor the May 9th Victory Day parades.  I find them deeply offensive on both a personal and societal level.  There are some here that are trying to use fiat and governmental force to ban them (more under the previous adminstsation than now).  I don't agree with that tactic.  I personally refuse to participate, and if someone honestly asks me why I didn't go to the parade or how I feel I would tell them.  Otherwise just ignore it.  Just ignore it and stop acting shocked and feigning outrage.  Eventually they'll get bored. 
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« Reply #190 on: May 27, 2012, 12:23:57 AM »

Quote
So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.
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« Reply #191 on: May 27, 2012, 01:09:57 AM »

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So as Augustine has mentioned, the Church has traditionally frowned upon oral sex among heterosexual couples.  Probably no touching either.   I've yet to see anyone here go on about a wife .... her husband's .... as the end of the world, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, etc. 
Speak for yourself. Thats sodomy, plain and simple, and sinful.

And there is close to a 0% chance of a priest in the US preaching that from the pulpit.  One must please the crowds in order to make a paycheck. 
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« Reply #192 on: May 27, 2012, 02:47:04 AM »

Really? Because if I asked my priest I would guarantee you he would say the same thing.

Why are there so many Orthodox-hating Orthodox cynics on this board?
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« Reply #193 on: May 27, 2012, 02:48:44 AM »

Really? Because if I asked my priest I would guarantee you he would say the same thing.

Why are there so many Orthodox-hating Orthodox cynics on this board?

Stick around long enough and you might become one.
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« Reply #194 on: May 27, 2012, 02:50:51 AM »

I remember attending a speaking by Fr. Joseph Huneycutt in which he joked about how Orthodox forums drain the soul out of you and that he refuses to look at them now. Perhaps his advice is worth following...
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« Reply #195 on: May 27, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »

I remember attending a speaking by Fr. Joseph Huneycutt in which he joked about how Orthodox forums drain the soul out of you and that he refuses to look at them now. Perhaps his advice is worth following...

Soul draining clogged this forum.
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« Reply #196 on: May 27, 2012, 03:17:51 AM »

Reminds me of when our baptismal font got backed up. Black murky water filled the bottom of it, and a fellow altar boy told Father that it was people's washed-away sins.  laugh
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« Reply #197 on: May 27, 2012, 04:37:09 AM »