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Author Topic: Bishop Bishoy: Blasphemy against the Blessed Virgin Mary  (Read 4130 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 21, 2012, 07:37:33 AM »



Last week, Bishoy, a Coptic bishop, secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt, and contender for the position of patriarch, said the following:

“I call on Christian girls to learn from veiled Muslim women their modesty. Some Christian women might be displeased with me, but the Virgin Mary, St. Demiana and the nuns wore modest clothes.”

How dare he compares Our Beloved Virgin Mary with the cloned demonic zombies of Islam who have nothing else to contribute to the world except hatred and murder? ...they just killed killed 100 people in suicide attacks in Yemen? How? How? How?


http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/coptic-women-protest-bishops-statements-dress

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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 07:53:33 AM »

Provided that this was translated properly, he was comparing modesty of clothing, not behavior toward others.  There is nothing wrong with such a comparison, and comparing the virtues of an enemy to point out failures in ones own ranks is a common method of teaching, as well as a display of humility.  Your post shows nothing but unmitigated hatred, which is far more displeasing to the Theotokos than pointing out that even the heathen dress more modestly than many Christians.

BTW - I am NOT calling you out on you dislike of Muslims because to me the only good one is a dead one.  On the other hand, I readily admit that if we were as fervent in our Faith as they are in their heresy, they would be no threat to us.
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 09:08:19 AM »

... if we were as fervent in our Faith as they are in their heresy, they would be no threat to us.

Excellent point!
...they are so dedicated to their tenets ....and often we are simply too lax.
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 10:48:29 AM »

Our most blessed Holy Mother never wore the accused trousers that Christian women do of these days. It is the darkest of times.
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:57 PM »

Where do you think the Mohammadians stole this from?

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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 12:26:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Last week, Bishoy, a Coptic bishop, secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt, and contender for the position of patriarch, said the following:

“I call on Christian girls to learn from veiled Muslim women their modesty. Some Christian women might be displeased with me, but the Virgin Mary, St. Demiana and the nuns wore modest clothes.”

How dare he compares Our Beloved Virgin Mary with the cloned demonic zombies of Islam who have nothing else to contribute to the world except hatred and murder? ...they just killed killed 100 people in suicide attacks in Yemen? How? How? How?


http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/coptic-women-protest-bishops-statements-dress



How dare you get so offended? That is the great legacy of HH Abune Shenouda III (God be with His soul) to be peaceable and friendly to Copts Muslim neighbors.  In the 1970s HH strictly forbade Copts from pilgrimages to the Holy Land in protest of the Israeli occupations saying that unless Christians and Palestinian Muslims could walk into the Holy City together hand in hand that no Christians should go!  That is courage.  That is faith. 

His Grace Bishop Bishoy is absolutely right.  I am no prude, but in the context of the Church, modernization is killing modesty. If Muslim women wear veils and head scarves their example is no different then the example of modesty of our Lady.  Muslim women are not brainwashed, you should be more respectful to other people.  Are our women who wear veils or headscarves also brainwashed zombies then?  Muslim modesty for women is from the same cultural and religious heritage that Old World Christian modesty stems from, and so in this context, HG's analogy is perfectly reasonable.  Further, it was quite effective, look at how much attention it garnished.  After all, HG is trying to get us to think, and this certainly is buzzing like a bee hive.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 01:20:07 PM »

It is true when Bishop Bishoy says that St. Mary, St. Demiana and others wore modest clothes. This should be enough of an example for our Christian sisters and daughters, shouldn't it? Comparing Christian women unfavorably to Muslims is insulting, and helps to perpetuate a sense of inferiority in the Christian community. Neither Islam nor Muslims are better than us. We should not imitate the Muslims in anything, as our own Christian saints and history are certainly enough for us, without invoking the seeming piety of the blasphemers, heretics, and heathens who may have this or that rule. What does that have to do with us? Nothing. Their Qur'an and Hadith from which these behaviors come are not our sources of law or conduct, and do not come from God, so they are useless and it is frankly foolish to appeal to them or those who follow them. What is next...Christians should look to Muslims also in saying their prayers? Roll Eyes I do not think Bishop Bishoy has done himself or his community any favors with a statement like this, regardless of how much "buzzing" it has generated. It was a foolish thing to say.
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 02:03:03 PM »

Traditional Christian dress for women is modest. What passes for traditional Muslim female dress often degrades the image of God, using modesty as a kind of pretext. Our Lady is veiled, but her face, and the faces of all Christian women, are clearly visible. Also, Christian women are not killed for talking to unrelated men. There is a big difference between modesty and the sexual slavery practiced in many Mohammedan circles.
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 02:08:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
It is true when Bishop Bishoy says that St. Mary, St. Demiana and others wore modest clothes. This should be enough of an example for our Christian sisters and daughters, shouldn't it? Comparing Christian women unfavorably to Muslims is insulting, and helps to perpetuate a sense of inferiority in the Christian community.

I disagree but I can emphatically understand and respect your views Smiley However I will pray that you come to understand what HG intentions seem to be, about building mutual fellowship and tolerance in the same example of HH Pope Shenouda's constant efforts in this regard.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 02:20:34 PM »

Intentions may be one thing, but the fact of the matter is that there is no fellowship to be had concerning this matter (in the sense of shared interests or goals) with Islam or Muslims. As Shanghaiski has just pointed out, the reasons for the Muslim's "modesty" are quite different than the Christian motivations, and they in turn have vastly different realizations. This is not an accident. This is by design. They are not supposed to be as we are and we are not supposed to be as they are. I would give anything to stop this attraction to the false piety of Islam on the part of our laypeople, so how then can I approve of it coming from our bishops? What HH did with Muslims was for patriotic and pragmatic reasons (the Copts and the Muslims share the same Egypt, after all), not to put Muslim modesty and morality on a pedestal as Bishop Bishoy seems to be doing with a foolish statement like the one he has made. There is no real comparison between the two. Our good Christian sons and daughters deserve guidance that calls them to observe modesty and purity of heart in accordance with our own religion, not that of the followers of a delusional blasphemer and his false revelation. What accord has Christ with Bilal, remember? As I recall, the allusion is none. And so it is true!
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 02:32:15 PM »

Veiling of the face is an ancient pre-Islamic Christian tradition of (present day known as ) Arabia and Yemen. See "Holy women of the syrian orient" by Sebastian brock and specifically the stories about the Holy martyrs of Najran. The Muslims took many customs from christians and veiling the face is one of them.
Does Bishop Bishoy teach the essence/energy distinction and Theosis? That's the bigger question.
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 02:36:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

They are not supposed to be as we are and we are not supposed to be as they are. I would give anything to stop this attraction to the false piety of Islam on the part of our laypeople, so how then can I approve of it coming from our bishops?

Sometimes both God and our Church asks us to do things out of compassion and love that make little sense according to dogma and reason. During the Communist days in Ethiopia, bishops and priests prayed with the congregations for their leaders as if those were not genocidal madmen.  It hurt a lot of feelings, but when facing such evil, what else can we do but pray? Indeed  all we can do is pray for understanding Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Last week, Bishoy, a Coptic bishop, secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt, and contender for the position of patriarch, said the following:

“I call on Christian girls to learn from veiled Muslim women their modesty. Some Christian women might be displeased with me, but the Virgin Mary, St. Demiana and the nuns wore modest clothes.”

How dare he compares Our Beloved Virgin Mary with the cloned demonic zombies of Islam who have nothing else to contribute to the world except hatred and murder? ...they just killed killed 100 people in suicide attacks in Yemen? How? How? How?


http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/coptic-women-protest-bishops-statements-dress



How dare you get so offended? That is the great legacy of HH Abune Shenouda III (God be with His soul) to be peaceable and friendly to Copts Muslim neighbors.  In the 1970s HH strictly forbade Copts from pilgrimages to the Holy Land in protest of the Israeli occupations saying that unless Christians and Palestinian Muslims could walk into the Holy City together hand in hand that no Christians should go!  That is courage.  That is faith. 

His Grace Bishop Bishoy is absolutely right.  I am no prude, but in the context of the Church, modernization is killing modesty. If Muslim women wear veils and head scarves their example is no different then the example of modesty of our Lady.  Muslim women are not brainwashed, you should be more respectful to other people.  Are our women who wear veils or headscarves also brainwashed zombies then?  Muslim modesty for women is from the same cultural and religious heritage that Old World Christian modesty stems from, and so in this context, HG's analogy is perfectly reasonable.  Further, it was quite effective, look at how much attention it garnished.  After all, HG is trying to get us to think, and this certainly is buzzing like a bee hive.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I don't know about Christians throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women.
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »

Quote
Sometimes both God and our Church asks us to do things out of compassion and love that make little sense according to dogma and reason. During the Communist days in Ethiopia, bishops and priests prayed with the congregations for their leaders as if those were not genocidal madmen.  It hurt a lot of feelings, but when facing such evil, what else can we do but pray? Indeed  all we can do is pray for understanding Smiley


That is not a comparable situation, Habte. I am assuming that the good bishops and priests of Ethiopia did not tell their people to look to the communists for an example in morals and behavior. We likewise pray for the leader of this land in our liturgies, but without saying that we should learn from him proper Christian morals and behavior. How you can not grasp this very important and obvious difference is beyond me.

HH Pope Shenouda III also said: I may be very gentle with the poor. However, if it touches the religion or the doctrine, I turn into another person. Bishop Bishoy has certainly "touched the religion" with his comment, and so I stand against it not out of a lack of compassion or love (which is really not what we're talking about; Bishop Bishoy's comments were not about whether or not we should love or feel compassion toward Muslims), but out of those same impulses for the faith, and for those who are struggling in it and might need good CHRISTIAN examples but don't get them because the bishop has decided instead that it would be better to advocate for the religion of Satan.
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 03:08:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How you can not grasp this very important and obvious difference is beyond me.



I told you, I emphatically understand and respect your opinion, what is beyond me is that you can't see how your absolute hatred and dismissal of anything remotely Islamic is blinding you and many others from seeing HG and also HH intentions.  Again, I understand you, but when calling about these kinds of Romans 9 (provoke the Jews to jealousy) arguments, our leaders are asking us to challenge ourselves and say, "If heretics and non-believers follow our beliefs, why can't we?" Further, in drawing upon examples from Muslims, I understand you're upset that HG is choosing to overtly legitimize Islam as an example, but in the same light it seems HG is only following HH legacy and example of humanizing relationships with our Muslim neighbors.  Throw a little cool water on all that hotta fyah, for the fyah is not partial, not even to them that burn the fyah.  And if all of us are going to be the fyah man, then we all got to stick to the same fyah plan .



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 03:08:42 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »

"If heretics and non-believers follow our beliefs, why can't we?"

The Muslims are not following our beliefs, though. That is the entire reason why Bishop Bishoy is wrong in invoking their example. Or are you saying that Bishop Bishoy has the average Islamic apologist's understanding of how our faith relates to Islam such that if Muslims wear the hijab and St. Mary also covered, then Muslims are "better Christians" than Christians are? Because that is an argument I have heard from Muslims in favor of Islam, and may God help us all if that is what Bishop Bishoy is getting at! (But I don't think it is, or else he would not have included that St. Mary and St. Demiana also dressed modestly. All I'm doing is being baffled at why, since that is the case, he felt the need to include Muslims at all. Again, Christian saints for Christian people, and if Muslims want in too, let them put away their blasphemies and join the truth faith. Or is that too "unloving" of me, to want for them the greatest thing that a person can have?)

Quote
Further, in drawing upon examples from Muslims, I understand you're upset that HG is choosing to overtly legitimize Islam as an example, but in the same light it seems HG is only following HH legacy and example of humanizing relationships with our Muslim neighbors.
 

No. Just no. Unless you have a particular statement at the ready in which HH Pope Shenouda III advises Christian girls to follow Muslims, then you are way over the line here. We are not talking about some generic humanization of relationships with Muslims (as though HH or HG would need to do that! Are Muslims not humans already?), but about the actual substance of the statement that Christian girls should look up to Muslim women and imitate them. Please stick to that and if you can find anything that says that in HH's speeches and writings, okay. If not, do not make any more false equivalencies for the sake of making yet more kumbaya posts about Islam, and dragging HH's blessed name through the mud in the process. If HH's loving and prudent actions towards Egyptian Muslims show us anything, it is proper Christian behavior toward that community: Love without compromise. Not, as HG Bishop Bishoy's statement seems to have it, compromise for the sake of doing what Christians should be doing anyway.

Quote
Throw a little cool water on all that hotta fyah, for the fyah is not partial, not even to them that burn the fyah.  And if all of us are going to be the fyah man, then we all got to stick to the same fyah plan .

I'm sorry, I don't speak Reggae affectation. What is your point here? More stuff about how I'm hateful because I love Christ, the Word of God and the true light, and do not love those things that would separate us from Him?
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 03:38:09 PM »

... if we were as fervent in our Faith as they are in their heresy, they would be no threat to us.

Excellent point!
...they are so dedicated to their tenets ....and often we are simply too lax.

Mohamedism is a cult and as such the Muslims follow the Quran and their leaders blindly.  As individuals they can be the loveliest people, but they are easily aroused by their leaders.  Islam gives the  highest regard to whoever can memorize the Quran, even though the rules within it tend to contradict one another at times; giving leeway to clerics to say whatever they d*** please.   Like all cults, Muslims lack the comfort of the Holy Spirit and tend to  get carried away with their passions.

Anyway that's how I see them.  They see their medieval culture as perfection, since Mohamed had it 'sanctified' by his 'god' and thereby it should be imposed on the whole world.  As for modesty, what's wrong with it?   Isn't humility a virtue and isn't modesty a form of humility?   Huh

  


 



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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 04:09:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

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Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
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stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 04:11:31 PM »

Traditional Christian dress for women is modest. What passes for traditional Muslim female dress often degrades the image of God, using modesty as a kind of pretext. Our Lady is veiled, but her face, and the faces of all Christian women, are clearly visible. Also, Christian women are not killed for talking to unrelated men. There is a big difference between modesty and the sexual slavery practiced in many Mohammedan circles.

Wasn't it Aristotle that said:  'Pan Metron Ariston'.  In other words, everything within moderation is best.  That said, veiled women predates Islam and even Christianity in the Near and Middle East.  I did see an ancient Greek statue of a girl from Anatolia that had her veil pulled across her face, and it seemed to have continued with Christians in parts of Anatolia...or at least until the ethnic cleansing of the last century.  Contrary to contemporary beliefs, the women in Constantinople did cover their face, or at least they did when they left the house.   I think the veil on the cone hats was meant to cover one's face.  The Crusaders brought the fashion into Europe as well as other fashions such as the neck and chin covering that might have led to the garments worn by nuns.  Actually in an old Dutch painting two women that appear to be nuns are wearing the clothes of the day. 

That the Muslims are carrying these things to an extreme is frightening though, and might be a reaction to  our total laxity or maybe not?  I know a relative of mine who lived on a Greek island, wore the customary black  burka when her husband died even in the heat of the summer.   Huh
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 04:17:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



That the Muslims are carrying these things to an extreme is frightening though, and might be a reaction to  our total laxity or maybe not?  I know a relative of mine who lived on a Greek island, wore the customary black  burka when her husband died even in the heat of the summer.   Huh

That is ridiculously insightful, thank you Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 04:20:51 PM »

I can't understand something, aren't Christians supposed to set an example?  If the Muslims see us as being lax in our personal morals, and that includes modesty, then what kind of example are we setting them? Huh
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 04:29:55 PM »

That is exactly it, Zenovia. Christian examples of holiness are taken as either nonexistent or otherwise pushed aside in favor of exalting the Muslims in their supposed piety, even when (as you have rightfully surmised) it has completely different roots and motivations.

So maybe it is not so much that we are lax, full stop, but that proper examples of Christian modesty and piety are not given their due within Christian circles, where it is apparently more popular to look to the Muslims and marvel at them and look up to them and blahblahblah. It's as though we can't remember our own saints because we have more daily interactions with heathens, so the heathens become our role models. Sad

This is why I have things like the video in my signature available for all to see. There is a true Christian!
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 09:49:11 PM »

That is exactly it, Zenovia. Christian examples of holiness are taken as either nonexistent or otherwise pushed aside in favor of exalting the Muslims in their supposed piety, even when (as you have rightfully surmised) it has completely different roots and motivations.

So maybe it is not so much that we are lax, full stop, but that proper examples of Christian modesty and piety are not given their due within Christian circles, where it is apparently more popular to look to the Muslims and marvel at them and look up to them and blahblahblah. It's as though we can't remember our own saints because we have more daily interactions with heathens, so the heathens become our role models. Sad

This is why I have things like the video in my signature available for all to see. There is a true Christian!

It's the dhimmi attitude bred by Mohammedan rule.
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 10:46:11 PM »

Would that women would dress modestly.

I remember as a girl wearing hats and gloves outside.
Then suddenly, out went the hats, gloves, and modesty.
In came the mini-skirts and hot pants.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.
For example, women wear thin silk skirts (formerly slips or petticoats) and camisoles or halter tops.
I remember in high school, that wearing mini-skirts, hot pants, halter tops, and camisoles were grounds for expulsion.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 11:24:58 PM »

... if we were as fervent in our Faith as they are in their heresy, they would be no threat to us.

Excellent point!
...they are so dedicated to their tenets ....and often we are simply too lax.

Mohamedism is a cult and as such the Muslims follow the Quran and their leaders blindly.  As individuals they can be the loveliest people, but they are easily aroused by their leaders.  Islam gives the  highest regard to whoever can memorize the Quran, even though the rules within it tend to contradict one another at times; giving leeway to clerics to say whatever they d*** please.   Like all cults, Muslims lack the comfort of the Holy Spirit and tend to  get carried away with their passions.

Anyway that's how I see them.  They see their medieval culture as perfection, since Mohamed had it 'sanctified' by his 'god' and thereby it should be imposed on the whole world.  As for modesty, what's wrong with it?   Isn't humility a virtue and isn't modesty a form of humility?   Huh

  


 



.  

A cult without a centralized authority of any sort...how peculiar.
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 11:50:36 PM »

Would that women would dress modestly.

I remember as a girl wearing hats and gloves outside.
Then suddenly, out went the hats, gloves, and modesty.
In came the mini-skirts and hot pants.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.
For example, women wear thin silk skirts (formerly slips or petticoats) and camisoles or halter tops.
I remember in high school, that wearing mini-skirts, hot pants, halter tops, and camisoles were grounds for expulsion.

Lord have mercy.

People in the west did dress better pre-1960s.

Even the poorest of the poor would don a shirt, slacks, tie and a hat.

Today well i guess personal "freedom" trumps all leading to the lowering of standards and frankly the mess, we see in our streets today.

I'm not advocating medieval dress codes ala Islam, however maintaining conservative, respectful attire would be good for society.



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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2012, 06:33:34 AM »


I know the vast majority of Ethiopian Christian women dress modestly, pray reguraly, fast and teach their children properly. What angers me most is the religious leaders seem to care less and less about their fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Pope Benedict XVl said "Christians should learn from the 'pious' fasting Muslims", now the women should imitate the hypocrites? Yea... the veild robots of Allah who spend most of their time wondering around shoping malls, gossiping to one another whether Leila had Armani, Prada or Dior inside the dark dress blabla... hypocrites! They better start cleaning their heart than moving around with their ugly outside, ugly inside outfits making an unconditional advertisment for the death cult. By the way, I have to ask after the motivation of the Bishop, is he trying to please the brotherhood snakes, so that they might influence the Coptic Church electing him as the next Pope? Please forgive me, but I am losing faith in our spiritual leaders, and I have to ask.
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2012, 07:08:35 AM »

Should Coptic women wear the hijab in order to submit to the new islamist political force? If the Islamists re-legalize FGM, will Met. Bishoy also tell Christian women to do that?

As a Christian, I believe that true modesty is in the heart and in the character, not in clothes.
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2012, 10:24:13 AM »



Last week, Bishoy, a Coptic bishop, secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt, and contender for the position of patriarch, said the following:

“I call on Christian girls to learn from veiled Muslim women their modesty. Some Christian women might be displeased with me, but the Virgin Mary, St. Demiana and the nuns wore modest clothes.”

How dare he compares Our Beloved Virgin Mary with the cloned demonic zombies of Islam who have nothing else to contribute to the world except hatred and murder? ...they just killed killed 100 people in suicide attacks in Yemen? How? How? How?


http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/coptic-women-protest-bishops-statements-dress

I do hate it when people talk about Muslim dress as a model that we should immitate; but to call the bishop's statements "blasphemy against the Blessed Virgin"? That's just nuts.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2012, 11:27:13 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2012, 12:12:48 PM »

Are not Christian girls & women in Egypt vulnerable to abduction by Islamists into forced marriages? Perhaps the bishop is using rhetoric that may dovetail with dhimitude but the overall intention is to protect against abductions?
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2012, 12:25:02 PM »

How will telling Christian women to imitate Muslims protect them from abduction when the point of such abductions isn't to enforce modest dress but to systematically destroy the Christian community by forcing their daughters to convert to Islam? Coptic women are still identifiable by their names, their attendance at church, living in Christian neighborhoods, having the cross tattoo, etc., even if they wear the hijab.

Balthasar: Do not lose hope in our leaders because of a stupid comment by one bishop. Bishop Bishoy is only one of many leaders, and there is no indication that he is fated to be elected to the papacy anyway. Notice how his comment has caused many Copts to rise against him, especially women. The people know their faith, and will not accept such indignities from anyone, thank God. Hopefully the protest will send the message to Bishop Bishoy and any leader who would make similar comments not to toy with the sensibilities of the flock in this way.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2012, 01:37:12 PM »

Should Coptic women wear the hijab in order to submit to the new islamist political force? If the Islamists re-legalize FGM, will Met. Bishoy also tell Christian women to do that?

As a Christian, I believe that true modesty is in the heart and in the character, not in clothes.

I do believe though that people should take the cultural sensibilities of others  into account, whether it be Muslims living in the U.S. and Europe, or Christians living in Islamic (occupied) lands.  As for the Copts, their situation is very precarious.  Resentment towards them is a way of life in Egypt and for the same reason it has been towards  all the Christians in the Middle East, not to mention the Jews in Europe:  Money.  The Copts like all Christians are wealthier, so all the Egyptian government has to do in order to arouse the Muslims and have them go on a killing spree, is to  tell them the money was stolen from them.  It is a  method the Islamic world has used for centuries, and it's why there are so few Christians there.   

The Copts are one tenth of the population and might be facing extermination or dhimmitude.  As one Copt said, there are ten million of us and it will be almost impossible for other nations to absorb us.  Basically they have no place to go, so the only thing they have is their prayers and it did save them before.    angel
   

 
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2012, 01:41:33 PM »

Are not Christian girls & women in Egypt vulnerable to abduction by Islamists into forced marriages? Perhaps the bishop is using rhetoric that may dovetail with dhimitude but the overall intention is to protect against abductions?

I agree with you on that.  If a Muslim man is attracted to a Christian girl,  there is a greater fear of abduction.  Best to have them cover themselves, if not for modesty then for protection at least.  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2012, 01:46:53 PM »

I`m on with that modesty of clothing that I see in arab countries and at muslims women, or at indian women when they cover at holy places.
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 01:53:23 PM »

I am tired of taking the "cultural sensibilities" of Muslims into account concerning every little thing, and if they want some place to live according to their precious laws, there is plenty of room in the desert in Saudi Arabia. The Islamic 'culture' is bad and inferior and ruinous to all good people, of any nation. We have a situation in Egypt where Christians are brutally beaten to death in public simply for being Christian (Ayman Labib was beaten to death at school by the students and the teacher of his class for refusing to remove the cross he was wearing). What does this have to do with money? It has to do with the Islamic sense of superiority and lordship over the dirty kuffar being insulted by our mere existence. The fact that we not only exist but are more economically successful than they are only drives the point home that their supposed superiority rests entirely on their BS religious claims, since it certainly is borne out in reality, despite the constant discrimination against and degradation of non-Muslims. The poorest Christians (and most Christians in the Middle East, as around the world, are poor), the Zabaleen (the 'garbage people') are subject to the same discrimination, and the only thing they have in common with the Carlos Slim Helu's of the world is a common religion.
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »

I want the Muslims to respect our cultural sensibilities if they live in the USA. If they live in Germany, they should be attentive to German cultural sensibilities. If they want muslim cultural sensibilities, they can move to Saudi Arabia.

If you move to Germany, you learn German and accept German life. Same with American, French, etc. sensibilities.

I would also like to comment on one other thing:

Quote
The Copts like all Christians are wealthier, so all the Egyptian government has to do in order to arouse the Muslims and have them go on a killing spree, is to  tell them the money was stolen from them.  It is a  method the Islamic world has used for centuries, and it's why there are so few Christians there
The actual historical system as to why there are few Christians in that area of the world is a simple system:

The Book, The Tax, or The Sword.

PP
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2012, 02:07:27 PM »

I`m on with that modesty of clothing that I see in arab countries and at muslims women, or at indian women when they cover at holy places.

like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Va0THuwf8M this woman really makes me think to the Theotokos, essp seing the movie..
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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2012, 02:46:47 PM »

There is a lady that works as a Pharmacy Technician at a local grocery store where I purchase my medication.  She where's the traditional hijab.  She looks like pictures of the Blessed Mother.  On about the 5th or 6th time she waited on me, I told her that I lover her hijab and that it reminds me of the Blessed Mother and that I wish women still wore them.  I told her how I remember my grandmother wearing scars over her hair and mantillas during mass.  A few months passed and just last week she waited on me and asked me how I'm doing as she smiled at me.  It took me back because she remembered me.  I sayed "oh, i didn't realize you remembered me."  She just smiled.  Most Muslims are harmless.  It's the really extreme sect, that represents a major minority of the whole that we are grouping the rest with.  The same can be assumed about Orthodox Christians or Catholics, not to mention Protestants.  Many people in the various religious beliefs misrepresent the faith they identify.  It is said that 80% of the Catholics do not even know their own faith, thus misrepresenting to the general public what we believe.
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2012, 03:04:41 PM »

 Undecided

Christian women remind me of the Theotokos. Are we all about who covers more, or is modesty and piety about what it is under the flesh? No matter, I suppose, as Christian women are also modest, despite the slander they suffer in being compared unfavorably to heathen Christ-deniers.

Tewahedo modesty

Coptic modesty

Romanian modesty

Syriac modesty

etc.

These people have the faith that produces in them true modesty and humility, not from the sick laws of Muhammad and the devil that told him to force his religion that no one needed on the entire world.

Of course, if we just want to be ridiculous and fetishize the hijab without thinking about the differences behind the impulse to modesty in Christianity and Islam because the hijab makes us feel warm and fuzzy, that's one thing, but enough looking for modesty in everywhere but Christianity and then complaining that there is no modesty in Christianity! It makes no sense.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »

I am tired of taking the "cultural sensibilities" of Muslims into account concerning every little thing, and if they want some place to live according to their precious laws, there is plenty of room in the desert in Saudi Arabia. The Islamic 'culture' is bad and inferior and ruinous to all good people, of any nation. We have a situation in Egypt where Christians are brutally beaten to death in public simply for being Christian (Ayman Labib was beaten to death at school by the students and the teacher of his class for refusing to remove the cross he was wearing). What does this have to do with money? It has to do with the Islamic sense of superiority and lordship over the dirty kuffar being insulted by our mere existence. The fact that we not only exist but are more economically successful than they are only drives the point home that their supposed superiority rests entirely on their BS religious claims, since it certainly is borne out in reality, despite the constant discrimination against and degradation of non-Muslims. The poorest Christians (and most Christians in the Middle East, as around the world, are poor), the Zabaleen (the 'garbage people') are subject to the same discrimination, and the only thing they have in common with the Carlos Slim Helu's of the world is a common religion.

Everyone has a certain amount of self love and believes their culture, (language, religion, customs, etc.) as being better than that of others. In Mohamed's case, he decided that god  saw it that way too,  so he had to impose  his 'superior' medieval culture  on the rest of the world. ..with the sword of course.

There is a part in the Quran or Hadith that say's  what you take from others is better than what you earn...thus the rampages and ethnic cleansing.   Now what I'd like to know is if Christians, Jews and pagans didn't exist, who would be doing the work?  So Islam is faulty in everyway.  Besides they practice taqiyya, and lie in just about everything...to non Muslims of course. Angry

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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2012, 07:05:21 PM »

There is a lady that works as a Pharmacy Technician at a local grocery store where I purchase my medication.  She where's the traditional hijab.  She looks like pictures of the Blessed Mother.  On about the 5th or 6th time she waited on me, I told her that I lover her hijab and that it reminds me of the Blessed Mother and that I wish women still wore them.  I told her how I remember my grandmother wearing scars over her hair and mantillas during mass.  A few months passed and just last week she waited on me and asked me how I'm doing as she smiled at me.  It took me back because she remembered me.  I sayed "oh, i didn't realize you remembered me."  She just smiled.  Most Muslims are harmless.  It's the really extreme sect, that represents a major minority of the whole that we are grouping the rest with.  The same can be assumed about Orthodox Christians or Catholics, not to mention Protestants.  Many people in the various religious beliefs misrepresent the faith they identify.  It is said that 80% of the Catholics do not even know their own faith, thus misrepresenting to the general public what we believe.

As individuals the Muslims can be lovely people, but they are easily aroused especially when it comes to their faith.  This has nothing to do with their clothes and customs, which frankly existed even among Christians in Southern Europe and Anatolia.  In that we should be tolerant, but we have to understand what makes Islam tick. 

Islam is not merely a religion, it is a religious/political entity that encompasses territorial expansion and conquests as being part of their faith.  Once land has been lived on by Muslims, it must always be under Islamic laws and institutions.  This is why there are so many problems with Israel, and this is what the Balkans, Caucasus and Spain are now being faced with.  The Muslims want to restore their former caliphates.  Sharia law exists in parts of France so that  even French police and fire engines aren't able to enter those areas.  They have been trying to impose sharia in parts of Britain as well.   

This  site gives quite a bit of information on the persecution of Christians in the Middle East, which our main stream media seems to conveniently ignores...Thanks to our State Department:   Angry

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2012, 08:15:34 PM »

Quote
BTW - I am NOT calling you out on you dislike of Muslims because to me the only good one is a dead one.
I disagree strongly. Just to start off, what about Muslims who are considering becoming Christian? What about Muslims who do not have strong religious ideas, but perform strong acts of charity? I knew one Muslim girl who told me she likes Christians and wishes there were more Christians in the Holy Land.

On the other hand, I readily admit that if we were as fervent in our Faith as they are in their heresy, they would be no threat to us.
True, and it is notable to me that Islam spread especially in areas that were largely Oriental Orthodox. One explanation i read was that the repression over the Orientals made them more susceptible to become Muslim.
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2012, 08:33:11 PM »

Quote
BTW - I am NOT calling you out on you dislike of Muslims because to me the only good one is a dead one.
I disagree strongly.

I agree with you, rakovsky. That "only good one is a dead one" remark was an awful thing for him to say.
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2012, 08:37:56 PM »

I remember as a girl wearing hats and gloves outside.
Then suddenly, out went the hats, gloves, and modesty.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.

Huh
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2012, 08:41:34 PM »

Quote
BTW - I am NOT calling you out on you dislike of Muslims because to me the only good one is a dead one.
I disagree strongly.

I agree with you, rakovsky. That "only good one is a dead one" remark was an awful thing for him to say.

Harmless internet posturing, like his statements about Putin.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2012, 09:05:56 PM »

I remember as a girl wearing hats and gloves outside.
Then suddenly, out went the hats, gloves, and modesty.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.

Huh

 Grin I think we need a "No Underwear" sign (or emoticon), like a "No Smoking" sign but with underwear instead of a cigarette.

I guess we think alike, rakovsky, b/c I set that post aside earlier, planning to respond to it but never got around to it.

Seriously, my guess is that Maria meant people wearing just underwear.
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2012, 11:08:54 PM »

I remember as a girl wearing hats and gloves outside.
Then suddenly, out went the hats, gloves, and modesty.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.

Huh
Seriously, my guess is that Maria meant people wearing just underwear.

On closer "inspection", LOL, I think what she means is that silk skirts and halter tops are underwear, and that wearing them as the outermost layer of clothes became acceptable.
Quote
In came the mini-skirts and hot pants.
Worse, the wearing of underwear became acceptable.
For example, women wear thin silk skirts (formerly slips or petticoats) and camisoles or halter tops.
I remember in high school, that wearing mini-skirts, hot pants, halter tops, and camisoles were grounds for expulsion.
It sounds like she is correct, since the things she lists in bold can be worn as underwear, and at least some varieties of those things have become acceptable in places like college campuses where they might not have been in the past.

I do wish to say that I think it is better if women cover their heads in Church because St Paul said so. Just as priests and deacons dress a certain way, in my opinion, women should wear headcovering and men should take off their hats in church.

I understand the current reasoning common among Orthodox Christian leaders that it's OK because St Paul was writing in a different time period, and that today, women wearing headcovering isn't disrespectful.

Personally I disagree with this reasoning- obviously even in St Paul's time he had a choice on the issue, and maybe some women at that time preferred going without head covering. In fact, for a trend to change, some people, like those women, must do things differently and others must copy them. Logically, St Paul would've disagreed with this trend spreading. Besides, St Paul's own reasoning wasn't based on just "social mores" or what "people think is acceptable." He didn't say "This is what is socially acceptable, so we do this." Actually, Christians shouldn't hold themselves or strictly enforce social mores because they are what's common. Instead, St Paul based his reasoning on what he saw as the inherent biological natures and roles of men and women. He saw the head covering issue as a matter of what is itself pleasing to God, not what is pleasing to society.

Outside of church though, for me it isn't so important. I should add that about 90% of the women in my home parish (OCA) now don't have any head covering, and most of them are over 55. I would say that's how it is at most OCA parishes. I doubt you can force them to do this, and I think it's better they at least come to Church, which is more than alot of people do.

If we just base everything on "Well, people had different attitudes then", then when it comes to other important issues, we could end up changing ourselves based on what the larger society changes to consider acceptable.  

I want to add that it's a hard issue, and isn't a matter of the church becoming more liberal or something. For example, my impression is that the early Church was often more pacifist and anti-death penalty (St Ambrosius) than some of its members (St Augustin, perhaps) later showed themselves to be. In that case, the Church integrated more into the Roman Empire, which was more military oriented, and those influences may have crept in more. To give another example, the overarching totalitarian role played by the Pope of Rome over other patriarchs may have been acquired and influenced later by the Roman Emperor's role within the larger society.
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« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2012, 07:16:50 AM »


Balthasar: Do not lose hope in our leaders because of a stupid comment by one bishop. Bishop Bishoy is only one of many leaders, and there is no indication that he is fated to be elected to the papacy anyway. Notice how his comment has caused many Copts to rise against him, especially women.

Thanks, dear dzheremi! Of course, I won't lose hope, in fact, I do believe that there are many wonderful church leaders out there -- but sometimes it's frustrating not to feel their presence when the Christian world is facing the most challenging and difficult times in recent history. I used to appreciate Bishop Bishoy for openly telling the truth, when he said, "Muslim Arabs are guests in Egypt". It's a fact that they are guests, better said, invaders. And the Copts either need this sort of fighting spirit to protect their faith and country, or accept evil Islam or leave Egypt.

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« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2012, 07:29:26 AM »


Everyone should try to do the following: As you know, Google has a wonderful tool called Google Trends , now, go ahead and click it as it will open in a new window. Essentially, this tool allows you take a word or phrase and see the search volume for it with respects to countries and/or cities. At the top of the page type in a word (sorry for bringing these words Embarrassed) like, "sex" and click search. Look at the results and you’ll notice that 6 out of 10 are Muslim countries with Pakistan leading the way followed by Egypt, Iran, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey. It gets better, type in "anal s**" and you’ll see the top 2 spots belong to Saudi Arabia and Turkey! How about searching on "f***", you’ll see Iran and Pakistan way ahead of everyone on this. Go ahead and do another one, "ass f***" and you’ll notice Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran in front of everyone.  Roll Eyes  Shocked

Muslims are proud of their strict beliefs as they feel it gives them the moral high ground, and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE. Hypocrites and perverts!!  Huh The world would be better off without the followers of Islam which by itself is the very embodiment of the spirit of antichrist.

Hadith, Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

“The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands”


Daniel 11:37 – 38 gives us some clue to the likes of Muhammad, the fake prophet.

“Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not...“

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« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2012, 07:47:13 AM »

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.
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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2012, 09:39:16 AM »

Thanks, dear dzheremi! Of course, I won't lose hope, in fact, I do believe that there are many wonderful church leaders out there -- but sometimes it's frustrating not to feel their presence when the Christian world is facing the most challenging and difficult times in recent history. I used to appreciate Bishop Bishoy for openly telling the truth, when he said, "Muslim Arabs are guests in Egypt". It's a fact that they are guests, better said, invaders. And the Copts either need this sort of fighting spirit to protect their faith and country, or accept evil Islam or leave Egypt.

I am an outsider, of course, but one of the things that strikes me about Coptic history as I have read it (by people in the church like HH Pope Shenouda III, Fr. Tadros Malaty, Idris Habib El Masri, etc.) is that the people have been very shrewd when faced with decisions like this. They have accepted what needed to be accepted and rejected what needed to be rejected in order to keep their faith. This is why statements like the one of Bishop Bishoy really confuse me, because it doesn't seem necessary to me to say things like what he has said about Coptic women. As I've written, Christian examples and Christian modesty are enough, so there's no need to tell women to follow Muslims in anything. And likewise I think there is no need to start fights for the sake of protecting the faith. The Muslim Arab knows, deep down, that he is illegitimate with regard to his "Egyptianness", as Egypt was quite plainly conquered and forced into conformity with Islam over a long process which saw the destruction of its traditional identity for all but those who steadfastly refused to accept Islam, the vector of Arabism. This is why it is traditional for the leaders to pay homage to the Coptic Pope at least since the days of Nasser (who made the first concentrated effort to remake Egypt as an Arab country politically, rather than simply linguistically). They need the legitimacy that comes along with recognition of the past that specifically excludes them, so that they can feel free to remake it in their image. Saddam Hussein and the Baathists did the same in Iraq, when they used to sponsor traveling exhibitions of Assyrian antiquities in rural villages to show the villagers (who mostly didn't know better) the great heritage of "Iraq", the fake, artificial entity built atop the might that was Beth Nahrain (Mesopotamia/Assyria).

Given this reality, I think it is best to have the kind of quiet determination that the Copts have always had, which can be loud when it has to be but mostly sticks to its own prerogatives, as is needed to live out the Gospel in a harsh environment (after all, the pre-Muslim/Arab days of Diocletian et. al. were no picnic, either). We cannot really turn back the clock on the Arab invasions, but history has shown that the Copts have a faith that can move mountains when necessary, and we know that Muslims do not (the best they can hope for, I guess, is to conquer the mountain by force and then feel content with themselves for having done so...), so who will really lose in the end? A preemptive fear of "losing the country", so to speak, has resulted in that feared outcome materializing when Christian people have seen fit to arm themselves with a sense of superiority relative to their Muslim or otherwise non-Christian neighbors. In the Middle East, you need look no further than Lebanon for an example of that (where the Christian minority was lost about 1977, well into the war). The Copts know better, praise God.
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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2012, 10:01:43 AM »

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.

While I am not going to do what Balthasar has suggested (I've already read articles about how porn-hungry Pakistani and Saudi Googlers are, and I definitely don't need such terms in my search history!), I do not think it is a wild accusation to say that Islam worships the devil. The individual, everyday Muslim, of course, has no direct say in the matter, as the majority in the Middle East were not converted recently and hence have never had any realistic choice to be or know anything else, since of course leaving Islam is just not an option on a social/political level (Muhammad having said, as per the Hadith, that whoever changes his religion from Islam is to be killed).

This does not change the fact that Islam is built upon a denial of God, the only God who is -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. This is the God of our Fathers, and if you have trouble seeing that those who reject Him are worshiping something else I can only tell you to stop reading CCC 841 and pick up any of the preexisting very old commentaries on the heresy of Islam by the likes of John of Damascus and Dionysus Bar Salibi. These men had no trouble calling a spade a spade, and the Western Christian world could use some of that spirit itself, as it finds itself being engulfed by masses of Muslims and their useful idiots ever ready to praise the blasphemy of Muhammad. Don't be one yourself.
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2012, 10:57:41 AM »

Where do you think the Mohammadians stole this from?

PP

Christianity?
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2012, 11:13:22 AM »

Where do you think the Mohammadians stole this from?

PP

Christianity?
I was going to say from Russian grandmothers...but that'll work too Smiley

PP
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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2012, 11:22:10 AM »

This is the God of our Fathers, and if you have trouble seeing that those who reject Him are worshiping something else I can only tell you to stop reading CCC 841

If you're feeling lonely, don't. Turns out there are high-level Catholics who see satanism all over the place just like you do. For example, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, exorcist of the Diocese of Rome, said "practising yoga is satanic, it leads to evil just like reading Harry Potter".

 Roll Eyes

BTW, concerning Muslims, I never said that I agree with CCC 841.
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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2012, 11:32:56 AM »

This isn't about Satanism or yoga, but nice try, Peter J. I'm sorry that you are wedded to a church that believes in popular monotheism and other moronic idiocies, but that's no reason to compare me to one of your looniest priests for the entirely reasonable suggestion that you read some of the historic writings of the Eastern and Oriental Christians who have actually lived in Islam-dominated societies before deciding that everyone who insists that Islam is evil is somehow an extremist. That's a low blow, my friend.
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »

This isn't about Satanism or yoga, but nice try, Peter J.

You're the one making the low blow dzheremi. It isn't about Satanism? That's exactly what we're talking about, Satanism and devil worship. This is the post you responded to in the first place:

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.

(boldface added)

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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2012, 01:23:16 PM »

You're the one making the low blow dzheremi. It isn't about Satanism? That's exactly what we're talking about, Satanism and devil worship. This is the post you responded to in the first place:

Actually it wasn't about literal Satanism/devil worship until you made it so. Balthazar simply accused muslims of 'satanic pride'. 'Satanic pride' is a farily common *Christian* term (East or West) for overweening pride--as 'pride' was the sin which caused Satan's fall, it is associated with him more directly than any other sin. 'satanic pride' is like 'Herculean strength', 'olympian heights, 'Solomonic wisdom', etc.
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2012, 01:48:59 PM »

You're the one making the low blow dzheremi. It isn't about Satanism? That's exactly what we're talking about, Satanism and devil worship. This is the post you responded to in the first place:

Actually it wasn't about literal Satanism/devil worship until you made it so. Balthazar simply accused muslims of 'satanic pride'. 'Satanic pride' is a farily common *Christian* term (East or West) for overweening pride--as 'pride' was the sin which caused Satan's fall, it is associated with him more directly than any other sin. 'satanic pride' is like 'Herculean strength', 'olympian heights, 'Solomonic wisdom', etc.

When I responded to Balthasar's post, I wasn't aware (but I am now) that satanic has more than one meaning, and hence doesn't necessarily refer to satanism. So I apologize to Balthasar for misinterpreting his post; needless to say, I wouldn't come on this thread and say that Muslims aren't satanist, just for the hell of it, unless I thought someone was saying that they are satanist. Nevertheless, since that's what dzheremi was responding to,

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.

While I am not going to do what Balthasar has suggested (I've already read articles about how porn-hungry Pakistani and Saudi Googlers are, and I definitely don't need such terms in my search history!), I do not think it is a wild accusation to say that Islam worships the devil.
etc.
it's clearly bad form for him to then turn around and say that "This isn't about Satanism".
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« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »

When I responded to Balthasar's post, I wasn't aware (but I am now) that satanic has more than one meaning, and hence doesn't necessarily refer to satanism. So I apologize to Balthasar for misinterpreting his post;

Add to that, I don't want to give anyone the impression that Fr. Gabriele Amorth, exorcist of the Diocese of Rome, was necessarily referring to satanism when he said "practising yoga is satanic, it leads to evil just like reading Harry Potter". (Although that does appear to be how some interpret his statement:

Quote
“It’s a theory — if one can call it a theory — that is totally without foundation. Yoga is not a religion or a spiritual practise. It doesn’t have even the slightest connection with Satanism or Satanic sects.” Giorgio Furlan, the founder of the Yoga Academy of Rome, said yoga had nothing to do with religion, “least of all Satanism.” “Whoever says that shows that they know absolutely nothing about yoga,” he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/harry-potter/8915691/Harry-Potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-Catholic-Church-exorcist.html
)
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« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2012, 02:49:56 PM »


This does not change the fact that Islam is built upon a denial of God, the only God who is -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. This is the God of our Fathers, and if you have trouble seeing that those who reject Him are worshiping something else I can only tell you to stop reading CCC 841 and pick up any of the preexisting very old commentaries on the heresy of Islam by the likes of John of Damascus and Dionysus Bar Salibi. These men had no trouble calling a spade a spade, and the Western Christian world could use some of that spirit itself, as it finds itself being engulfed by masses of Muslims and their useful idiots ever ready to praise the blasphemy of Muhammad. Don't be one yourself.

To best understand the 'limits' of Islam, we have to compare it with Christianity... which as we know is the fulfilment of man's spiritual progression.  When God first revealed His true nature, He showed He consisted of virtue and gave the Jews the moral laws.  When  the time was ripe, God gave us the fuller vision of Himself with the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ.  With Christ's passion, God showed us that virtue was more than just a set of do's and don't's, and that it was a love so pure as to be incomprehensible.  

We know this fuller vision of God was rejected by the Jews, but Mohamed decided to go one step further.  He wanted a god that would endorse his personal quest for world domination.  His god had to be one that would impose his 'superior' cultural beliefs on everyone else.  This is why it's inconceivable to the Muslims that their all powerful militant God,  would die the ignoble and humiliating death of crucifixion.  

For one to unite with God in His Kingdom, they too must become like Him, so since our God consists  of Pure Love, we too have to obtain that love.  Mohameds god though consists of militant triumphism, so this is what the Muslims honor and aspire to.  

To me the strangest thing in Islam, is how the Muslims honor the Virgin Mary for conceiving Jesus without a spouse, and yet they will not accept Jesus as the Son of God.   Where is the rationale in that? Huh
    
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« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2012, 03:40:13 PM »

This topic has me torn in two. I agree with everything Dzheremi said, but my initial response was the same as Hebte Selassie.

I don't like the idea of looking up to any UnOrthodox person when we have so many wonderful examples inside our church, but I'm not upset with Bp Bishoy for his comment. I think he was just speaking in simplicity and in love. I don't know.

I'm confused.
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« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2012, 04:30:28 PM »

This is the God of our Fathers, and if you have trouble seeing that those who reject Him are worshiping something else I can only tell you to stop reading CCC 841

If you're feeling lonely, don't. Turns out there are high-level Catholics who see satanism all over the place just like you do. For example, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, exorcist of the Diocese of Rome, said "practising yoga is satanic, it leads to evil just like reading Harry Potter".

 Roll Eyes

BTW, concerning Muslims, I never said that I agree with CCC 841.

First of all I have the greatest respect for Fr. Gabriele Amorth.  He had the courage to restore exorcisms back into the Catholic Church.  As for Yoga, I think there are two forms, one with a spiritual component to it and one without.  The spiritual one would of course lead to satanism, since anything that is not of our God, has to be  of another god. 

As for Harry Potter, if he arouses an interest in magic and the supernatural in children, that would lead to the occult.  I think it all  depends on how much influence Harry has on their lives.  Undecided
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« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2012, 05:14:34 PM »

When I responded to Balthasar's post, I wasn't aware (but I am now) that satanic has more than one meaning, and hence doesn't necessarily refer to satanism. So I apologize to Balthasar for misinterpreting his post; needless to say, I wouldn't come on this thread and say that Muslims aren't satanist, just for the hell of it, unless I thought someone was saying that they are satanist. Nevertheless, since that's what dzheremi was responding to,

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.

While I am not going to do what Balthasar has suggested (I've already read articles about how porn-hungry Pakistani and Saudi Googlers are, and I definitely don't need such terms in my search history!), I do not think it is a wild accusation to say that Islam worships the devil.
etc.
it's clearly bad form for him to then turn around and say that "This isn't about Satanism".

Com'on Peter...you know better than this. Even if you don't know the difference between "Satanic pride" and "Satanism", certainly you know the difference between "Satan" and "Satanism". To say that someone worships the devil (especially in the context of talking about other religions) is not the same as saying that they follow Anton Levay and all that stupid stuff and actually do "Satan worshiping" or whatever like actual Satanists would.
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« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2012, 05:23:53 PM »

Com'on Peter...you know better than this. Even if you don't know the difference between "Satanic pride" and "Satanism", certainly you know the difference between "Satan" and "Satanism".

This on top of your other low blows ... wow. I really don't know what you're problem is, but I was completely sincere when I said:

When I responded to Balthasar's post, I wasn't aware (but I am now) that satanic has more than one meaning, and hence doesn't necessarily refer to satanism.

P.S. Just to make sure you can't capitalize on my silence, no I am not saying or implying that I don't know the difference between the words "Satan" and "Satanism".
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« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2012, 05:31:37 PM »

Far be it for me to understand how holding your intellect in high regard is insulting or provoking you, but as you wish, Peter J.
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« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2012, 05:49:52 PM »

Far be it for me to understand how holding your intellect in high regard is insulting or provoking you, but as you wish, Peter J.

Sorry, I get a little impatient sometimes. I guess the point is, satanism was the topic of discussion, regardless of whether it was brought up by Balthasar or by me. You can't just change the rules in the middle of play, and it's particularly annoying when you do it to put words in my mouth.

BTW you've apparently forgotten that you actually supported my interpretation of satanic as "of or pertaining to Satanism" (as opposed to "of or pertaining to Satan") when you initially responded:

and this is exactly what they really have: EMPTY satanic PRIDE.

This again? Seriously, I think you guys are obsessed with accusing people of devil worship.

While I am not going to do what Balthasar has suggested (I've already read articles about how porn-hungry Pakistani and Saudi Googlers are, and I definitely don't need such terms in my search history!), I do not think it is a wild accusation to say that Islam worships the devil.
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« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2012, 08:20:01 PM »

In a different thread, I made the point that Early Christian women wore modest clothes, wore head coverings, and stated that many EO Christian women did this, but many did not.  Some Orthodox synods agree, where some do not... (Scriptural issue too).

I was argued with pretty severely from some on this forum, when the issue was between different groups of the Orthodox.  I posted examples of every Orthodox Christian woman and the Theotokos in the icons we have, as having modest clothing and head coverings....  Then somebody (an Orthodox Christian) even posted a magazine cover of a Playboy magazine, along with Muslim women, etc.

So I find it ironic... but anyway -

This bishop, I did not see him comparing the Virgin Mary to Muslims.   I think he was speaking of how the Muslim women wore these modest and faith filled clothes and that they follow their faith.  Then he mentioned the role models for the Orthodox women.

Women should be in modest clothing, and wear head coverings while praying, and pray without ceasing.  I believe the bishop was right, but jumbled the context.   Kind of hard to see the Theotokos and Muslims in the same paragraph though... But I don't see the big deal.
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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2012, 10:04:32 PM »

[discretion is the better part of valor] Grin
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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2012, 06:53:28 PM »

It is true when Bishop Bishoy says that St. Mary, St. Demiana and others wore modest clothes. This should be enough of an example for our Christian sisters and daughters, shouldn't it? Comparing Christian women unfavorably to Muslims is insulting, and helps to perpetuate a sense of inferiority in the Christian community. Neither Islam nor Muslims are better than us. We should not imitate the Muslims in anything, as our own Christian saints and history are certainly enough for us, without invoking the seeming piety of the blasphemers, heretics, and heathens who may have this or that rule. What does that have to do with us? Nothing. Their Qur'an and Hadith from which these behaviors come are not our sources of law or conduct, and do not come from God, so they are useless and it is frankly foolish to appeal to them or those who follow them. What is next...Christians should look to Muslims also in saying their prayers? Roll Eyes I do not think Bishop Bishoy has done himself or his community any favors with a statement like this, regardless of how much "buzzing" it has generated. It was a foolish thing to say.

Intentions may be one thing, but the fact of the matter is that there is no fellowship to be had concerning this matter (in the sense of shared interests or goals) with Islam or Muslims. As Shanghaiski has just pointed out, the reasons for the Muslim's "modesty" are quite different than the Christian motivations, and they in turn have vastly different realizations. This is not an accident. This is by design. They are not supposed to be as we are and we are not supposed to be as they are. I would give anything to stop this attraction to the false piety of Islam on the part of our laypeople, so how then can I approve of it coming from our bishops? What HH did with Muslims was for patriotic and pragmatic reasons (the Copts and the Muslims share the same Egypt, after all), not to put Muslim modesty and morality on a pedestal as Bishop Bishoy seems to be doing with a foolish statement like the one he has made. There is no real comparison between the two. Our good Christian sons and daughters deserve guidance that calls them to observe modesty and purity of heart in accordance with our own religion, not that of the followers of a delusional blasphemer and his false revelation. What accord has Christ with Bilal, remember? As I recall, the allusion is none. And so it is true!

"If heretics and non-believers follow our beliefs, why can't we?"

The Muslims are not following our beliefs, though. That is the entire reason why Bishop Bishoy is wrong in invoking their example. Or are you saying that Bishop Bishoy has the average Islamic apologist's understanding of how our faith relates to Islam such that if Muslims wear the hijab and St. Mary also covered, then Muslims are "better Christians" than Christians are? Because that is an argument I have heard from Muslims in favor of Islam, and may God help us all if that is what Bishop Bishoy is getting at! (But I don't think it is, or else he would not have included that St. Mary and St. Demiana also dressed modestly. All I'm doing is being baffled at why, since that is the case, he felt the need to include Muslims at all. Again, Christian saints for Christian people, and if Muslims want in too, let them put away their blasphemies and join the truth faith. Or is that too "unloving" of me, to want for them the greatest thing that a person can have?)

Quote
Further, in drawing upon examples from Muslims, I understand you're upset that HG is choosing to overtly legitimize Islam as an example, but in the same light it seems HG is only following HH legacy and example of humanizing relationships with our Muslim neighbors.
 

No. Just no. Unless you have a particular statement at the ready in which HH Pope Shenouda III advises Christian girls to follow Muslims, then you are way over the line here. We are not talking about some generic humanization of relationships with Muslims (as though HH or HG would need to do that! Are Muslims not humans already?), but about the actual substance of the statement that Christian girls should look up to Muslim women and imitate them. Please stick to that and if you can find anything that says that in HH's speeches and writings, okay. If not, do not make any more false equivalencies for the sake of making yet more kumbaya posts about Islam, and dragging HH's blessed name through the mud in the process. If HH's loving and prudent actions towards Egyptian Muslims show us anything, it is proper Christian behavior toward that community: Love without compromise. Not, as HG Bishop Bishoy's statement seems to have it, compromise for the sake of doing what Christians should be doing anyway.

Quote
Throw a little cool water on all that hotta fyah, for the fyah is not partial, not even to them that burn the fyah.  And if all of us are going to be the fyah man, then we all got to stick to the same fyah plan .

I'm sorry, I don't speak Reggae affectation. What is your point here? More stuff about how I'm hateful because I love Christ, the Word of God and the true light, and do not love those things that would separate us from Him?

Dzheremi,

Great posts (as usual)!  Christians should not be imitating the false piety of Muslims, but should be imitating Christ and His saints.
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