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Author Topic: Should I destroy this icon?  (Read 5755 times) Average Rating: 0
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

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« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2012, 09:44:17 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2012, 09:50:42 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2012, 11:52:54 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.
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« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2012, 05:14:58 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?
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« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2012, 05:21:03 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.
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« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2012, 05:52:19 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.

Have you read St John of Damascus' In Defense of the Holy Images? Here's a link:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

St John is not the only father who has written about iconography, but this work of his is a very good start.
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« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2012, 06:33:30 AM »

Some food for thought, from a working iconographer, in response to the existence of dubious and uncanonical images, particularly the novelties painted in recent years by often (but, sadly, not exclusively) non-Orthodox artists:

Quote
We have been down this path before and it always leads the same place. A lack of humility and obedience. Originally, iconography was a monastic endeavor. It was supposed to be a vocation in the church. You were supposed to give up other forms of expression solely for iconography. Few have done that. Lately, it has become a sideshow to one's art career and inner expression, just a hobby to be taken up without much thought.

Look at the cashing-in on painting classes everywhere. $700+ to teach non-Orthodox how to paint the sacred imagery. But without exposure to Liturgy every week, they pervert the images and make their own statements as if they had the authority. The arguments of "Why can't I?" and "How dare you tell me what to paint?" ring in the ears. We are not going to bend our knee to any authority as we are in charge of our own salvation. We have stacks of books that tell us so. It's sad, and telling, about our society and path.

The saddest part is that we quietly accept these perversions as versions of the truth. The uniformed and uninspired current Orthodox accept false images and display them unknowingly. The painters of false icons open their mouths and speak with authority without the ancient knowledge to support them. They walk in error and repeat that error many times over.

A further response to James Rottnek's query as to whether icons must be painted by prayerful people, is this: Must a hymnographer writing for the Church (such as writing for a newly-proclaimed saint) be prayerful while he works? If not, why not?
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« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2012, 08:20:02 AM »

Some food for thought, from a working iconographer, in response to the existence of dubious and uncanonical images, particularly the novelties painted in recent years by often (but, sadly, not exclusively) non-Orthodox artists:

Quote
We have been down this path before and it always leads the same place. A lack of humility and obedience. Originally, iconography was a monastic endeavor. It was supposed to be a vocation in the church. You were supposed to give up other forms of expression solely for iconography. Few have done that. Lately, it has become a sideshow to one's art career and inner expression, just a hobby to be taken up without much thought.

Look at the cashing-in on painting classes everywhere. $700+ to teach non-Orthodox how to paint the sacred imagery. But without exposure to Liturgy every week, they pervert the images and make their own statements as if they had the authority. The arguments of "Why can't I?" and "How dare you tell me what to paint?" ring in the ears. We are not going to bend our knee to any authority as we are in charge of our own salvation. We have stacks of books that tell us so. It's sad, and telling, about our society and path.

The saddest part is that we quietly accept these perversions as versions of the truth. The uniformed and uninspired current Orthodox accept false images and display them unknowingly. The painters of false icons open their mouths and speak with authority without the ancient knowledge to support them. They walk in error and repeat that error many times over.

A further response to James Rottnek's query as to whether icons must be painted by prayerful people, is this: Must a hymnographer writing for the Church (such as writing for a newly-proclaimed saint) be prayerful while he works? If not, why not?

And I assume this working iconographer is a father of the Church?
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2012, 08:20:42 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.

Have you read St John of Damascus' In Defense of the Holy Images? Here's a link:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

St John is not the only father who has written about iconography, but this work of his is a very good start.

I in fact read it several months ago, can you point me to a particular passage you're referring to, because I don't really have a desire to re-read the entire thing right now.
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2012, 08:21:36 AM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?
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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2012, 08:27:56 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was a genuine attempt to create an icon. Then what?

(words added for clarity)
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« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2012, 08:31:08 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was a genuine attempt to create an icon. Then what?

(words added for clarity)

Then seeing as how LBK has not actually pointed out anything objectionable about it, I see no reason at all to not venerate it.
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« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2012, 10:39:36 AM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.
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« Reply #103 on: May 25, 2012, 10:50:26 AM »

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?
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« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2012, 11:56:15 AM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.
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« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.
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« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2012, 12:09:35 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?


*Bump* What say you, James?
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« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2012, 12:20:11 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?


*Bump* What say you, James?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking; questions are usually more clear when more than one word is asked.
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« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2012, 12:25:42 PM »

OK then, James, let's break it up into more digestible bits:

In response to your
Quote
Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

In response to:

Quote
Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

What do you say to this?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?

Put another way, how many iconographers paint icons without prayer?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 12:30:06 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2012, 12:47:23 PM »

OK then, James, let's break it up into more digestible bits:

In response to your
Quote
Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

In response to:

Quote
Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

What do you say to this?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?

Put another way, how many iconographers paint icons without prayer?

I don't know who he was praying to, or if he was praying, I try not to assume that I know what random people do with their time.  Have you asked him who he may have been praying to, or if he - in fact - was praying at all?  I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you.

On your second point, I have no idea how many iconographers paint icons without prayer.  It could be nearly all of them, it could be nearly none of them.  There have been many, many bad, bad, bad monastics over the years, and I would in no way be surprised if many of them painted icons.

Besides though, I still have seen zero patristic support for your idea that who paints the icon is important, or whether or not they pray.
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« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »

Quote
On your second point,  I have no idea how many iconographers paint icons without prayer. It could be nearly all of them, it could be nearly none of them. There have been many, many bad, bad, bad monastics over the years, and I would in no way be surprised if many of them painted icons.

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say (and the advice you've been given is remarkably consistent), then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.



« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 12:59:33 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2012, 01:00:56 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.
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« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2012, 01:18:09 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.

Asteriktos, you might not be aware that an iconographer must be given a specific blessing by his bishop before being able to hold himself out as an iconographer. It is not an ordained position, but one in which the prospective iconographer must show that he has the proper spiritual mindset and correct doctrinal approach to embark on this holy work. Such rigor is also demanded for those who write hymns and service texts. Both obediences are major responsibilities in the life of the Church. They are not playthings subject to the whims and fancies of those who pursue them.

By contrast, giving alms or reading the Bible needs no permission from priest or bishop.
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« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2012, 01:24:15 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2012, 01:32:53 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad
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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2012, 02:09:58 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad

What is relativistic about Asteriktos' point? Even though it is required for much prayer to go into icon-painting, it may not necessarily be so in reality. How do we know who is actually praying? If I didn't use any icons that were made without prayer, how many do you think I could use?

Nonetheless, I'm with you on this.
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« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2012, 02:24:21 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad

I don't know what's relativist about not being delusional.
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« Reply #117 on: May 25, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »


You guys seem to be missing the point.

LBK is stating what "should" be the norm.  Why bother teaching something that is below par?

Yes, clergy and bishops might not be saved, however, the Church teaches what is expected of them, and prays and expects that they SHOULD meet their obligations and be saved.

Same with all of us.  Just because "we" aren't disciplined enough in following the rules, canons, laws, recommendations, of the Church in order to hopefully, through the Grace of God, achieve salvation....doesn't mean the Church should lower her standards and teach something "less".

Same with icons.  Certainly not all icons are created in a prayerful atmosphere, with prayers constantly on the lips of the iconographer, nor are they fasting, and they might not even be using tempera paints.....

However, the proper way to write/paint an icon should still be taught.

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« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2012, 03:19:02 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.

 Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself?   Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing. An Eastern Catholic priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant. The expert who weighed in, blown off.  How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

Im sure there are professional artists who could emmulate an Icon. But then its just a work of art. Not a true Icon.



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« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2012, 03:26:30 PM »

Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself? 

Huh? I'm not Orthodox, I'm not even a Christian. But I suppose comparisons to priests, bishops, etc., or addressing any of the points I made, is above your intellectual capabilities (gee, this ad hominem stuff is fun!)

Quote
 Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing.

More theory. Great. Or is this anecdote? Here's an anecdote for you. I spent a weekend in a GOA monastery and they were constantly bickering and back biting, and when out of ear shot gossiping about each other. But oh that couldn't possibly be, because in theory monks are meek and humble people!

Quote
A Uniate priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant.

Completely.

Quote
The expert who weighed in, blown off.

The expert thinks stories about Mary living in the Tmeple are literally true. Seems she has a hard time discerning reality in more areas than just how iconographers might act.

Quote
How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

I'm assuming you're addressing someone else with this part, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
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« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

BS. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.



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« Reply #121 on: May 25, 2012, 03:31:46 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

If the painter was attempting to create an icon, he would be Orthodox, and have a blessing to do iconography.
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« Reply #122 on: May 25, 2012, 03:32:58 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

What would the prayers avail?
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« Reply #123 on: May 25, 2012, 03:34:03 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...
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« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2012, 03:45:17 PM »

Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself?

Huh? I'm not Orthodox, I'm not even a Christian. But I suppose comparisons to priests, bishops, etc., or addressing any of the points I made, is above your intellectual capabilities (gee, this ad hominem stuff is fun!)

Quote
Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing.

More theory. Great. Or is this anecdote? Here's an anecdote for you. I spent a weekend in a GOA monastery and they were constantly bickering and back biting, and when out of ear shot gossiping about each other. But oh that couldn't possibly be, because in theory monks are meek and humble people!

Quote
A Uniate priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant.

Completely.

Quote
The expert who weighed in, blown off.

The expert thinks stories about Mary living in the Tmeple are literally true. Seems she has a hard time discerning reality in more areas than just how iconographers might act.

Quote
How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

I'm assuming you're addressing someone else with this part, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

My bad. I thought you were someone else. (who was Orthodox).  But the point was there are many Orthodox who are that in name only, And someone who writes an Icon and spends that much love and time with it would be much more likely to do things the way it should be done as opposed to folk that are Orthodox in name only and not dedicated or just go for the social outing.

Well as to the monks, you know they are falling short of what they are supposed to be doing. So there is a standard as to what should be done. Im sure you are exaggerating or just being pessimistic. Any monk will admit they fall down and they get back up. Im not a gossiper. I honestly state my thoughts directly to a person, typically in a tactful way. I couldnt comment on the monks you saw but if it is true I am a bit disgusted. But then again after praying for six hours I would give them a little slack. Because you saw monks falling short in a particular scenario is never the less rediculous to say that just because it is tradition that Icon writters are supposed to pray we cant really say that they do. We really can know besides what my calculations tell me and what I see on video. Right.... To assume none of them follow suit is an idiotic assumtion.

If someon who knows nothing of the subject matter contradicts someone who has actually been doing said matter for years, that is the epitimy of arrogance and stupidity.       

Ive read similar things on Mary living in the temple. Whats her source? Why do you assume this isnt true?  Are you saying there were no nuns? Do you even know of the Essinians?

My dad is an expert in cell phone stuff.  Now he is retarded in everyother thing, but I wouldnt think to question him in his field of expertise.
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« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.
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« Reply #126 on: May 25, 2012, 04:09:08 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.
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« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2012, 04:21:55 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.

The tradition is the same all over from what Ive seen. It cant be unless it is the same as it always had been. Im not going to interview folks from around the world  for you. Do it yourself. This isnt a matter of the core faith so thats probably why its hard to find patristic writings, along with the Fathers not being the guys who write Icons.  Michaelangelo even said to pray to the Holy Spirit while creating art to get a great product. One would think that you would pray to the saint you were painting would be common sense or a reasonable conclusion. But thanks to lunatics, common sense is dead.
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« Reply #128 on: May 25, 2012, 04:46:44 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.

The tradition is the same all over from what Ive seen. It cant be unless it is the same as it always had been. Im not going to interview folks from around the world  for you. Do it yourself. This isnt a matter of the core faith so thats probably why its hard to find patristic writings, along with the Fathers not being the guys who write Icons.  Michaelangelo even said to pray to the Holy Spirit while creating art to get a great product. One would think that you would pray to the saint you were painting would be common sense or a reasonable conclusion. But thanks to lunatics, common sense is dead.

You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.
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« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2012, 12:34:56 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
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« Reply #130 on: May 26, 2012, 12:48:47 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
Not long enough to destroy icons.
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« Reply #131 on: May 26, 2012, 01:07:02 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.
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« Reply #132 on: May 26, 2012, 01:28:58 AM »

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You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I have been Orthodox for over 60 years. And personally, I think James's posts have been commendable and his steadfastness has also been commendable.

What is my concern is the lack of a personal statement by Robert Lentz . Perhaps I missed it. It would be nice to learn what he considers to be outreach illustrations vs iconograohy.
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« Reply #133 on: May 26, 2012, 01:38:41 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.

If that is the case, more reason to commend him for his reserved assessments.
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« Reply #134 on: May 26, 2012, 02:36:23 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I have been Orthodox for over 60 years. And personally, I think James's posts have been commendable and his steadfastness has also been commendable.
For what reasons?
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