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Author Topic: Should I destroy this icon?  (Read 5684 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2012, 02:12:30 PM »


She would just burn it....so, save yourself the shipping charges and burn it yourself.

Yes, but she might have a barbecue and invite us over.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2012, 02:30:34 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

WIN!
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2012, 05:24:52 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

 Therein lies the problem. A man finds a kindred spirit and feels close to him, and perverts turn it into something homosexual because thats all they can see from it.

 I have a few Marine buddies that Ive probably had a spiritual bond closer than women Ive been with in some senses.  Guys Id take a bullet for without even thinking about it. Im not interested in them physically in anyway shape or form and it is sick to even think of such things, and an insult to the brotherly love that is preached throughout the Gospel by reducing it to homosexual lust. Its even sicker to be sympathetic towards such sinful attitudes, and no you cant read it a variety of ways unless you are a protestant or are intentionally undermining the true Spirit of Scripture. Hence blaspheming. No ancient would have read it as a homosexual relationship. Only those who wish to undermine the Word and his Truth by a direct attack or general relativism would say this. 
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 07:33:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.

Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?

Asteriktos, I get what you mean, and I love the way you said it. heard that argument plenty of times, with all due respect to everyone, it strikes me as one of the woes of fundamentalism and I don't mean only the protestant kind either.
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2012, 08:24:11 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2012, 08:39:26 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.
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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2012, 08:52:36 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.

Wonderfully stated, and I couldn't agree more. such is the spirit of the tradition of burning books, by new converts of certain crafts, not what the fundamentals make it to be by reading only the letter and ignoring the spirit. the rest of what you said is quite beautiful!
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2012, 08:59:55 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
Are you well enough versed in the Orthodox tradition of iconography to assert that in a debate with someone who has spent most of her life studying the subject?

She has shown absolutely no reason to believe this image of Jonathan and David is ANYTHING other than acceptable.  She has merely claimed that the artist is a "homosexual apologist," whatever that is, and therefore this must be trash.  As has been pointed out, the scrolls contain Biblical verses.  Further, Jonathan and David were AT LEAST as close as any other paired saints, were they not?  So doesn't it make sense to have them on the same icon?  As well, the description of this icon by the artist seems to strongly suggest that a homosexual man could draw strength from the non-sexual relationship of David and Jonathan, in his attempt to refrain from gay sex. 

Until LBK can point out reasons why this icon is unsuitable, I can only assume she has no basis for her views and is therefore not drawing on any experience she has with iconography.
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« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:36 PM »

James, please look at the following:

https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/sts-sergius-and-bacchus-martyred-c-303
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/sts-boris-and-george-hungarian
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/harvey-milk-san-francisco-1930-1978
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/we-wha-zuni-1849-1896

Then, tell us whether or not Robert Lentz is a homosexual apologist, and whether or not he is a master iconographer whose works are worthy of veneration.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:24:50 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:53 PM »


And this has to do with the icon in the OP, how?
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2012, 09:45:34 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2012, 09:46:36 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 10:00:00 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2012, 11:26:31 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.

But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2012, 12:23:59 AM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.

 Well I dont think he should have burned them....  

 He should have sold them to his D&D buddies, and then used the money to buy some Icons and Orthodox literature.  
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:26:39 AM by KShaft » Logged
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2012, 01:54:57 AM »

Quote
But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?

The spiritual condition and intent of the painter forms a great part of the holiness or otherwise of the icon. An artist who does not submit to what the Church teaches and espouses cannot paint a worthy icon, no matter how "beautiful" the end result might be. Orthodox iconographers are not immune from the egotism of self-expression overriding church teachings, of the subjective overtaking the objective. The image known as The Ark of Salvation, discussed elsewhere on this forum, is a case in point, a propaganda piece painted by a skilled hand. Another example is Fr Stamatios Skliris, an Orthodox priest who has painted some truly execrable images he calls icons. His St Nicholas the Helmsman and St Andrew Just Prior to His Martyrdom are typical examples of this willful approach.
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2012, 01:56:31 AM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.

But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?
Though God can and does certainly make exceptions, I would say both.

As it stands, you have chosen to argue with a woman who has convinced me that she is the forum's eminent expert on the Orthodox iconographic tradition. For you to argue with her who has likely been studying iconography for longer than you've been alive, you might as well be bringing a knife to a gunfight. You might make much better use of your time by just walking away from this thread and doing something else, because you're not going to accomplish anything here.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 02:01:49 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2012, 02:41:23 AM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2012, 06:53:16 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2012, 07:58:53 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.

Heresy is heresy. Whether it be bible worshiping, female homosexual "bishop" having, Eucharist denying, "tongues" speaking, or whatever; its all wrong.  But you know youre right. I should get which heretical church were insulting correct next time. Those toll house demons might ask me about this stuff... youre messin with tradition man! If you aint crackin on the heterodox, you aint Orthodoxchristianity.net !!!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 08:03:10 PM by KShaft » Logged
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« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.

For a long time I was perplexed as to how such a wide variety of groups could be called "protestant". But then it occurred to me that the term "catholic" includes a pretty wide variety as well -- Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, as well as a few small groups.
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« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2012, 02:18:19 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.
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« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2012, 02:20:30 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

Don't burden JamesR with obvious facts.  They ruin his little imaginary world.
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« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68
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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...
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« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2012, 03:40:14 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.
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« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2012, 03:44:13 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.

Then he would be understanding Nietzche, rather than assuming that the title (in English, anyway, not sure about the German) can be taken in a straightforward, woodenly literal way...

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...
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« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2012, 04:05:18 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.

Then he would be understanding Nietzche, rather than assuming that the title (in English, anyway, not sure about the German) can be taken in a straightforward, woodenly literal way...

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

It was a joke, sorta.

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

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« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2012, 04:18:28 PM »

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

You don't know how much it pained me to read this. It's like hearing yourself on an answering machine or something. You can't help but cringe.
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« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2012, 04:28:18 PM »

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

You don't know how much it pained me to read this. It's like hearing yourself on an answering machine or something. You can't help but cringe.

You do realize that recently someone said that my voice is how they imagine God sounding.

But you do get my point. From the introduction, if you don't remember. Rather than explaining it myself, lazy google says:

Quote
Nietzsche originally planned to title the book, Idleness of a Psychologist, but his friend and literary editor, Peter Gast (birthname: Heinrich Köselitz), suggested the title Twilight of the Idols (Götzen-Dämmerung), which was a play on words on Wagner’s Twilight of the Gods (Götterdämmerung).

The Wagner opera is based on Ragnarök, a series of future events in Norse mythology in which even gods, who are normally considered immortal, face their death.  After the death of several gods, and the submersion of the world in water, the world would be reborn from a few survivors. 

The play on words in the title of Nietzsche’s book indicates that the impending twilight is of ‘idols’ or ‘false gods’ (the diminutive götzen is used as opposed to götter in Wagner’s title).  The subtitle to his book is ‘How to Philosophize with a Hammer’.  As he indicates in the preface, Nietzsche plans to use his hammer as a tuning fork to sound out whether these ‘eternal idols’ are actually hollow. 

The image of a hammer might make us think of the powerful, destructive powers of Mjöllnir, that is, Thor’s destructive hammer that was capable of leveling mountains.  However, the irony is that Nietzsche is using the subtle hammer of his capacities as a critical philosopher, and yet his hammer too is capable of leveling mountains.

http://verhexung.com/post/7624109958

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« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »

Now I'm left wondering if you knew that I already knew what you know and are apparently trying to tell me  Cheesy
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« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2012, 04:35:56 PM »

Now I'm left wondering if you knew that I already knew what you know and are apparently trying to tell me  Cheesy

It pays to have an editor. What sorta title is that? Idleness of a Psychologist. Gast with his man crush on Neech came up with a brilliant way to further divide the formerly close friends further in hope of having him all to himself.

So what I am really saying is that bromance is awesome, how do you feel about being roommates?
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« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2012, 05:08:22 PM »

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2012, 05:13:23 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2012, 05:16:55 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Who is not incapable of reading this as not an insult?
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« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2012, 05:27:59 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Who is not incapable of reading this as not an insult?
laugh laugh wicked!  laugh
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2012, 07:52:09 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Another example of syncretist bunk from Robert Lentz, who painted the picture in the OP. Lentz attempts to illustrate Einstein’s “spirituality” by quoting him:

“It was not my rational consciousness that brought me to an understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe.”

“The most beautiful experience we can have is mysterious.”

“More and more I come to value charity and love of one’s fellow being above everything else… all our lauded technological progress – our very civilization – is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal.”


All very cute and wonderful. Lentz seems to have missed this quote from Einstein (who, btw, was Jewish, not Christian, so painting "icons" of him is out for this reason alone):

“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”
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« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2012, 07:57:32 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
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« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”


Oooh, that's a good one.
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« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2012, 08:36:53 PM »



[i]“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”
[/i]

 this would be a good reason to say to him, "You are a big dummy, Einstein! get a haircut!''   Wink Wink  @ peter J
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2012, 08:39:08 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2012, 08:51:00 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
- Overclockwise

Every time I burp, a new galaxy is born. Two if I’ve been eating broccoli.

Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.
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« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2012, 09:25:57 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
- Overclockwise

Every time I burp, a new galaxy is born. Two if I’ve been eating broccoli.

Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.

LOL dude this is the 31 century! aincent greeks are just unimaginative!  laugh
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2012, 09:37:58 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
- Overclockwise

Every time I burp, a new galaxy is born. Two if I’ve been eating broccoli.

Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.

Well this has taken a weird twist. I feel like someone's going to start quoting Jerematic.
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