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Author Topic: Should I destroy this icon?  (Read 5774 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 20, 2012, 08:55:54 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 09:14:21 PM »

Ugh, filthy. Burn it, seriously.

I know that might sound kinda overboard but what goes in the trash doesn't always make it to destruction and someone might fish it out or something.
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 09:15:50 PM »

What do the scrolls say?
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 09:31:57 PM »

I'm not sure what the scrolls say, but the artist's description in the link you provided seems to be about the love between Jonathan and David (a non-sexual love) being a support for homosexual Christians seeking to remain within the Christian tradition (i.e., not engage in sexual relations with other men).
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 09:32:22 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 09:34:09 PM »

What do the scrolls say?

Just curious to see the answer if anyone posts it.
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 09:53:25 PM »

What do the scrolls say?

Just curious to see the answer if anyone posts it.

me too, my natural inclination was to say moi aussi but I am not not sure how that would be interpreted.
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 10:01:07 PM »

I think David's says, "How wonderful was your love for me," and Jonathan's says, "Keep the sacred promise you made to me".

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic—affection that is rather common in the East, with no homosexual connotations.

Anyway, it's not an icon because it does not portray Orthodox theology, and I'd just toss it in the trash.
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 10:09:49 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

Look at who you are asking the question to. We can drop bombs on innocent civilians in other countries but can't write the F word on the side of the same plane dropping the bombs.

Double standards abound my friend.
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic
I've heard that misconception raised about an icon of Ss. Peter and Paul giving each other the kiss of peace.
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 10:15:28 PM »

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic
I've heard that misconception raised about an icon of Ss. Peter and Paul giving each other the kiss of peace.

Even better, that Peter and Paul "faked" their dispute as to be a didactic exercise.

Nick can give you the sources for such teachings.

It's hilarious.
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2012, 10:20:19 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
The murderous adulterer repented of his murder and adultery (Psalm 50/51).

The text doesn't fit a homoerotic interpretation, but as you say it is not the point of the story. Unless one has an agenda claiming that history has been "straightened" out.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 10:25:27 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2012, 10:27:57 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Sell them or give them away.

Burning books was dumb after the advent of the printing press.

Burn mass market paperbacks is really stupid.

We all going to get together and delete all our Satanic mp3s around a fire?
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2012, 10:28:17 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Throw them away, do you parents check under your bed to make sure they are still there?
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 10:29:39 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
Look at who you are asking the question to. We can drop bombs on innocent civilians in other countries but can't write the F word on the side of the same plane dropping the bombs.

Double standards abound my friend.

It's not so much the implied homosexuality (which I don't believe belongs there and is an issue, just not the big issue at hand), but what it says about the implied homosexuality and how that compares to Church teaching. Everyone acknowledges that David's murderous adultery existed without defending, supporting, advocating, or sanctifying such behavior. We have numerous saints who are known for engaging in behavior that the Church does not teach to be proper behavior (murder, sexual misconduct, etc). Despite any participation in such behavior, our saints have been made holy by God and are His saints, but the sanctifying of the person does not mean the sanctifying of any improper behavior performed by those saints.
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 10:31:04 PM »

I disagree with some of the posts above that speak against burning them. You're a teenager. Burning is what you do best. Embrace your inner fire-starter! Own that fire!

Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 10:33:16 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Integrate them into your personal collection of books and then just not get around to reading them.
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 10:36:56 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Canonically speaking, it is not an Icon, because it is not based on a traditional type. That being said, it is not necessarily bad. You will have to decide whether you can use it or not.

Maybe you could use it to prop up a table.
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2012, 10:38:02 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

as far as I know the scripture endorses the relationship between David and Jonathan and portrays it in a positive light. If it indeed were a homosexual relationship then that would be tantamount to saying that the scriptures endorse homosexuality.
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 10:39:01 PM »

I disagree with some of the posts above that speak against burning them. You're a teenager. Burning is what you do best. Embrace your inner fire-starter! Own that fire!

Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.

I second both these suggestions. Just don't blow yourself up.
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 10:41:11 PM »

I think i only read one, but those left behind books were fascinating. (at least as a kid... maybe not now)

too bad theyre read as theology books.
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 10:49:54 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 10:53:39 PM »


I would not toss that image in the trash, only because Christ is depicted on it...therefore, I recommend burning it.

The only reason you would have an icon, is to venerate the saints, pray to them for intercession, etc.  What does this painting depict?  What benefit does it give to the soul?  ....or does it just spark controversy and doubt?

If it's not beneficial to the soul, get rid of it.
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2012, 10:55:56 PM »

Well I've decided I'll take everyone's advice and keep those books hidden on my book shelf where I will never read them and then one day when my parents are not around and stop caring about them, it is off to the fire with that heresy.
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 11:02:46 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Or read them; they really aren't too terribly bad for modern novels.
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 11:25:14 PM »

I think David's says, "How wonderful was your love for me," and Jonathan's says, "Keep the sacred promise you made to me".

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic—affection that is rather common in the East, with no homosexual connotations.

Anyway, it's not an icon because it does not portray Orthodox theology, and I'd just toss it in the trash.
You sure have a sharp eye ! That's exactly what it says.
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 11:27:06 PM »


Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.

Sometimes I wake up in the morning thinking that I must have died and that I am in some sort of alternative reality. There is nothing I can do about that, so I just ignore it. I like used book stores and I also like perusing what arrives at the Salvation Army thrift shop. In your defense this does not mean I always read them once I buy them, or ever read them. For example, Conversational Chinese by Ssu-yu Teng, U. Chicago Press, 1947. I did make it half way through the teach yourself Esperanto book.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 02:03:43 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 02:29:12 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 04:43:26 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2012, 05:40:58 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2012, 06:05:47 AM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Sell them or give them away.

Burning books was dumb after the advent of the printing press.

Burn mass market paperbacks is really stupid.

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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 06:52:52 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

I would disagree.

From the dictionary, an icon is: a representation of some sacred personage, as Christ or a saint or angel, painted usually on a wood surface and venerated itself as sacred.

This is a piece of politico-social propaganda, just like the old Soviet posters.  It would even be a far reach to call it religious "art", as it does not support the religious beliefs, of the Faith it is trying imitate.

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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 07:14:52 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

To be fair, James, LBK never said anything about tossing it out, she recommended burning it. Honestly, I would consider burning an icon like that too.
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2012, 08:48:56 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

I would disagree.

From the dictionary, an icon is: a representation of some sacred personage, as Christ or a saint or angel, painted usually on a wood surface and venerated itself as sacred.

This is a piece of politico-social propaganda, just like the old Soviet posters.  It would even be a far reach to call it religious "art", as it does not support the religious beliefs, of the Faith it is trying imitate.



Well said, Liza. These wayward images do not even express the teachings of these artists' own Roman Catholic faith  - they are, as you said, propaganda pieces, personal statements. To use iconography as a vehicle to promote a cause is completely unacceptable and shameful, even worse when done so by self-proclaimed "master iconographers". The spiritual damage that these men are capable of causing through the dissemination of their heretical and blasphemous paintings cannot be underestimated.
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 10:06:40 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
Are you well enough versed in the Orthodox tradition of iconography to assert that in a debate with someone who has spent most of her life studying the subject?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:10:55 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 11:20:55 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

You should send it to LBK.
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2012, 11:40:40 AM »


She would just burn it....so, save yourself the shipping charges and burn it yourself.
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2012, 11:58:47 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.
O-W-N?

The problem here is that Christ is portrayed as he should, and nothing is wrong with the protrayal of either David nor Jonathan, just the interpretation being read into it.

I wouldn't buy this

for veneration, but I wouldn't stomp on it either.
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2012, 12:18:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.



Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

Agreed completely.  In our sunday school lesson this past Sunday we talked about the Bible and its function. Literature is how we reflect and understand ourselves.  We read Shakespeare to find meaning and understanding to the human experience.  We understand romance through Rome and Juliet, we understand politics through Julius Caesar, we understand familial relationships through MacBeth..  The Bible is literature just like that, and it also reflects perfectly the human experience.  When we engage in the Bible, we engage with our internal selves and make sense of the world.  The problem? The Fathers rightfully observed that human beings are fractured and broken by sin.  So our literature naturally reflects our breaks, and so we can only partially understand ourselves through broken literature, just as we can only partially see through cracked lenses on a pair of glasses.  However the Bible is the inspired word of God.  The Bible not only reflects our weaknesses through the human experience, but the Grace of God.  We read it to find our real selves as made in the image of God.  The catch, just like literature we must deeply engage the text.  Too many people overlook the most serious character flaws in the major figures of the Bible. This defeats the purpose.  David was as you said an adulterous murderer, and we are supposed to catch that. Why did Moses flee into the wilderness? Oh right, for killing a man. How do we even get the Davidic line where Our Lady descended from? Oh right, the Patriarch Judah thought he was sleeping with a prostitute when I slept with Tamar.  When we read of these people, we can't just highlight their virtues while forgetting their serious flaws.  Agreed then, we should all be more concerned with other aspects of King David than the potentiality for pseudo-homoerotic relationships, which in the scheme of things is inconsequential to the other glaring flaws and shortcomings.  The point of including these? The demonstrate the love and mercy of God.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 12:20:54 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2012, 12:25:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.

Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?
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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2012, 12:31:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2012, 12:35:52 PM »

FWIW, what their scrolls say are actual Bible verses:

Jonathan's is from 1 Samuel 20:14 (specifically from the Good News Translation, which seems to translate covenant as "sacred promise").

David's is from 2 Samuel 1:26.
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« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2012, 02:09:49 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.
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