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Author Topic: Why do Icons cry/weep?  (Read 4541 times) Average Rating: 0
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Zenovia
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« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2012, 12:24:43 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?

What do you mean about secret knowledge?  Explain yourself sir?  Huh
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Zenovia
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« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2012, 01:21:08 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...

It seems reasonable that our sins would make them weep, as for someone in the church....  I doubt it, although there are churches  where  the Holy Spirit can be sensed, and other churches that are simply lacking.  I personally think it has to do with the congregation as a whole, and the extent of their faith as well as with the priest.   
 
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith.  To quote from Saint Nektarios:

CHRISTIANITY

Christian religion is not a certain philosophic system, about which learned men, trained in metaphysical studies argue and then either espouse or reject, according to the opinion each one has formed. It is faith, established in the souls of men, which ought to be spread to the many and be maintained in their consciousnesses.

There are truths in Christianity that are above out intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.


http://www.serfes.org/writtings/stnectarios.htm
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SolEX01
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« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2012, 02:32:18 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?

What do you mean about secret knowledge?  Explain yourself sir?  Huh

Knowledge which is gained through noetic prayers; however, this tangent is deviating far away from weeping/crying icons.

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primuspilus
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« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2012, 03:43:29 PM »

Quote
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith
I dont think its absurd, but to me, I am naturally critical of things like this. I'd rather deny an angel then accept a demon.

PP
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Punch
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« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2012, 04:16:39 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.

This!
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Punch
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« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2012, 04:19:34 PM »

If he had evidence, it would not be a miracle.

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Punch
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« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2012, 04:25:40 PM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.
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Zenovia
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« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2012, 06:29:58 PM »

Quote
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith
I dont think its absurd, but to me, I am naturally critical of things like this. I'd rather deny an angel then accept a demon.

PP

But demons are fallen angels and a definite part of Christianity. To me I find it easier to explain the actions of people such as Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler  to demonic possession, than to believe that all their power came from their own faculties.  When Saint Nektarios was exorcising someone he was amazed at how powerful the demon was. The demon told him that there were three of them in the world.  One was in control of Russia, and the other in China.  The year was 1917 when Lenin took over, and in China it was probably about the time that Mao Tse Tung became communist.

As for the one exorcised by Saint Nektarios, my guess is he left Greece and went into  Kemal Attaturk.   Who knows? Huh
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« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2012, 06:54:05 PM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.

I just found out what is Rule 34.   Embarrassed  Some things on this forum are beyond my ability to use context clues to determine a definition.   Undecided
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:59:47 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
Marc1152
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« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2012, 09:33:01 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...

It seems reasonable that our sins would make them weep, as for someone in the church....  I doubt it, although there are churches  where  the Holy Spirit can be sensed, and other churches that are simply lacking.  I personally think it has to do with the congregation as a whole, and the extent of their faith as well as with the priest.    
 
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith.  To quote from Saint Nektarios:

CHRISTIANITY

Christian religion is not a certain philosophic system, about which learned men, trained in metaphysical studies argue and then either espouse or reject, according to the opinion each one has formed. It is faith, established in the souls of men, which ought to be spread to the many and be maintained in their consciousnesses.

There are truths in Christianity that are above out intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.


http://www.serfes.org/writtings/stnectarios.htm

In Rocor Myrrh Streaming is not seen as "Weeping" or a something sad or disapproving. Quite the opposite. In the case of Icons of the Theotokos for example, it is considered a sign of her presence and a great blessing.

Here is a link to a web site that details the history of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon: http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.htm


« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 09:44:41 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2012, 10:04:31 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.

I just found out what is Rule 34.   Embarrassed  Some things on this forum are beyond my ability to use context clues to determine a definition.   Undecided

Don't worry too much about it.  It is far more a shame for me that I know Rule 34 than it is for you that you did not.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »

I don't think bringing in issues of "Scientific Proof" with the streaming icons is right.  For one, consider, if you had one would you like to hand it over to a Scientist to perform analysis on?

It really does not good anyway, because even if a link on the internet is provided as proof, containing a photo, testimony, or even slight analysis on the icon, it would never satisfy.

All I can suggest is anybody who doubts, to go see one for yourself.  Try to find one at a monastery.

I had the HONOR of holding one in my hands, and I fully believe it was streaming.  Before that I was really iffy if it was happening and thought it could have all been a hoax.   I am 100% positive it was streaming.   The wood on the back was aged and old (probably from years of having incense near it).  The paint was not tampered with.  All I have is my testimony, and can tell anybody, "if you don't believe it, go see it".
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LBK
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« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

I don't think bringing in issues of "Scientific Proof" with the streaming icons is right.  For one, consider, if you had one would you like to hand it over to a Scientist to perform analysis on?

It really does not good anyway, because even if a link on the internet is provided as proof, containing a photo, testimony, or even slight analysis on the icon, it would never satisfy.

All I can suggest is anybody who doubts, to go see one for yourself.  Try to find one at a monastery.

I had the HONOR of holding one in my hands, and I fully believe it was streaming.  Before that I was really iffy if it was happening and thought it could have all been a hoax.   I am 100% positive it was streaming.   The wood on the back was aged and old (probably from years of having incense near it).  The paint was not tampered with.  All I have is my testimony, and can tell anybody, "if you don't believe it, go see it".

I, too, have had the privilege of being in the presence of a myrrh-streaming icon, and while it was actively exuding the fragrant oil. But it is also necessary to exclude non-miraculous origins of such phenomena. History, particularly recent history, has many examples of holy objects showing behavior which can be explained by natural causes, or, far worse, doctored by people to give the appearance of miraculous manifestation. From the Orthodox POV, it is spiritually dangerous and improper to venerate something which has been manipulated to fool the faithful.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2012, 11:49:40 AM »

Quote
But demons are fallen angels and a definite part of Christianity. To me I find it easier to explain the actions of people such as Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler  to demonic possession, than to believe that all their power came from their own faculties.
I think you missed my meaning......


PP
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 11:51:05 AM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2012, 01:50:01 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

My opinion is that they cry because the saint depicted in them cries for us, because of us, or that they might prophecise a trauma.. I think icons drop myrrh to show us the blessing of the saint depicted in them..
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