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Author Topic: Divorce and remarriage  (Read 919 times) Average Rating: 0
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greek_yogurt
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« on: May 19, 2012, 09:14:53 AM »

Since I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, I was hoping to get some insight on a subject that causes some tension between the East and Rome. What is the history in the Orthodox Church tolerating this practice? Was it ever tolerated in any of the seven Ecumenical Councils or anything else that would be considered as authoritative? I have a friend who is Catholic and this is a big stumbling block for him.
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 09:20:14 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 09:23:37 AM »

Since I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, I was hoping to get some insight on a subject that causes some tension between the East and Rome. What is the history in the Orthodox Church tolerating this practice? Was it ever tolerated in any of the seven Ecumenical Councils or anything else that would be considered as authoritative? I have a friend who is Catholic and this is a big stumbling block for him.
why?  Does he refuse to recognize "annullment" as Vatican divorce?

I don't know of an Ecumenical Council being convened over a divorce.  Except divorcing heretics.

Yes, remarriage is in the canons.
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 09:27:33 AM »


why?  Does he refuse to recognize "annullment" as Vatican divorce?
[/quote]

This is precisely his belief. Although he thinks the vast majority are phony.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 11:11:57 AM »

Quote
why?  Does he refuse to recognize "annullment" as Vatican divorce?

This is precisely his belief. Although he thinks the vast majority are phony.
then he ought to be concerned about how much adultery the Vatican is blessing.
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2012, 12:05:31 PM »

I should add that my friend is not quite content with Catholicism. That being said, he is not quite content with Orthodoxy either. He always references Christ's words about monogamy.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2012, 12:17:38 PM »

I should add that my friend is not quite content with Catholicism. That being said, he is not quite content with Orthodoxy either. He always references Christ's words about monogamy.
He can always go Protestant and have his own pure Donatist petite eglise.

So what about Christ's words about monogamy?
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2012, 12:41:28 PM »

Since I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, I was hoping to get some insight on a subject that causes some tension between the East and Rome. What is the history in the Orthodox Church tolerating this practice? Was it ever tolerated in any of the seven Ecumenical Councils or anything else that would be considered as authoritative? I have a friend who is Catholic and this is a big stumbling block for him.

The Eastern practice of allowing 2nd and 3rd remarriages as a concession can be found in St. Basil's Canonical letters (canons 50 and 77 in particular). The 6th Ecumenical Council (canon II): "set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers, that is ... of Basil, Archbishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia".

So to answer your question, yes, it is tolerated as part of the authoritative canons promulgated by the Ecumenical Councils and recognized by the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 02:20:06 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
It's the abuse of that clause which is the problem.
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2012, 02:43:55 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2012, 04:58:32 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

Exactly.
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 05:43:06 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2012, 06:17:11 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,?
Maybe.  I'm just a simple layman.

 
 You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
I'm trying to understand the Fathers' thinking, if that's the same thing then so be it.  The Lord don't mind sincere questioning. 

BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.
You quoted me the Bible without giving the book and verse.  Alls I did was to ask you to point them out.  If you can't, no big deal.
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 11:50:38 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 12:44:18 AM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 

Some of what I take from Matt. 19:1-12 is that what God wants and what the people of God are required to do are not always the same. Not getting a divorce (except for fornication) may be the goal ("be perfect..."), but it is not necessarily the reality. After Christ there is more help, spiritually speaking, but also heavier demands, and we still fall short in some areas. Orthodoxy is not a faith of bookish rules, but a living faith, binding and loosing as it will (Matt. 18:18; Jn. 20:21-23), according to circumstances, and according to what seems good to those in authority, and hopefully according to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). Jesus also said to do that which was instructed by those sitting in "Moses' seat" (Matt. 23:1-3), but the early Church decided that this either was no longer in effect, or at the very least not in effect for who they were writing to (Acts 15:1-29).
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 06:58:01 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.

Somehow I missed where 'trinity' apparently does not have a basis in 'three'.
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 07:47:48 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.
John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the Word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on My account, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' 26 But when the Counselor comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, Who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to Me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning...16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth; for He will not speak on His Own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 07:59:26 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 08:37:26 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.
John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the Word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on My account, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' 26 But when the Counselor comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, Who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to Me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning...16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth; for He will not speak on His Own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.

If you had a point, I certainly missed it (unless it was to use up bandwidth).  I see nothing above that would show that the Father contradicts the Son, or that the Holy Spirit contradicts what the Son has clearly stated.  In fact, the texts above would indicate that those who would make up things that are contrary to the teachings of Christ probably were not acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 08:39:02 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 

Some of what I take from Matt. 19:1-12 is that what God wants and what the people of God are required to do are not always the same. Not getting a divorce (except for fornication) may be the goal ("be perfect..."), but it is not necessarily the reality. After Christ there is more help, spiritually speaking, but also heavier demands, and we still fall short in some areas. Orthodoxy is not a faith of bookish rules, but a living faith, binding and loosing as it will (Matt. 18:18; Jn. 20:21-23), according to circumstances, and according to what seems good to those in authority, and hopefully according to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). Jesus also said to do that which was instructed by those sitting in "Moses' seat" (Matt. 23:1-3), but the early Church decided that this either was no longer in effect, or at the very least not in effect for who they were writing to (Acts 15:1-29).

It seems that there is a big difference in getting a divorce, and remarrying after getting a divorce, particularly if you are the offending party.
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 08:51:14 PM »

Since I am fairly new to Orthodoxy, I was hoping to get some insight on a subject that causes some tension between the East and Rome. What is the history in the Orthodox Church tolerating this practice? Was it ever tolerated in any of the seven Ecumenical Councils or anything else that would be considered as authoritative? I have a friend who is Catholic and this is a big stumbling block for him.
why?  Does he refuse to recognize "annullment" as Vatican divorce?

I don't know of an Ecumenical Council being convened over a divorce.  Except divorcing heretics.

Yes, remarriage is in the canons.

In one corner we have Emperor Leo VI the Wise (why, I don't know, but he's the one that married three times, which was bad enough, and four times, which created even more problems) vs. Charlemagne (who had somewhere between 8 and 10 wives). Neither emperor divorced--I could be wrong. In essence, you have two forms of excess. How many marriages is too many, and who tells that to the emperor?

Perhaps one difference between eastern and western views of marriage came out of the culture. The east was more stable. One's wife was not likely to be seized or killed by a neighboring thug, for one. As regards rulers, in the west dynastic stability was more of a life and death matter. In the east, it was a freak show.
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 08:52:16 PM »

I should add that my friend is not quite content with Catholicism. That being said, he is not quite content with Orthodoxy either. He always references Christ's words about monogamy.

I was not aware of the Orthodox granting divorces right and left.
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 08:54:39 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

How is it a contradiction? The Son would've had to contradict what He told Moses if you interpret that passage so rigidly. Rather, the Lord was speaking of the ideal, from the beginning. Moses' instruction on divorce was much the same as that of the Church.
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 09:59:21 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.
John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the Word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on My account, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' 26 But when the Counselor comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, Who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to Me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning...16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth; for He will not speak on His Own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.

If you had a point, I certainly missed it (unless it was to use up bandwidth).  I see nothing above that would show that the Father contradicts the Son, or that the Holy Spirit contradicts what the Son has clearly stated.  In fact, the texts above would indicate that those who would make up things that are contrary to the teachings of Christ probably were not acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
If you presume to judge the Church, you contradict the Spirit Who guides her, the Son Who gave her His authority, and the Father who gave that authority to the Son to bestow on the Church to bind and loosen.

There were Donatists and others who questioned the Church on this.  They disappeared.  The Church did not.  Anyone who wishes to assume the Church's authority will meet a similar fate.  Or so Christ tells us (Matthew 16:18).
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 10:00:09 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well. 

Some of what I take from Matt. 19:1-12 is that what God wants and what the people of God are required to do are not always the same. Not getting a divorce (except for fornication) may be the goal ("be perfect..."), but it is not necessarily the reality. After Christ there is more help, spiritually speaking, but also heavier demands, and we still fall short in some areas. Orthodoxy is not a faith of bookish rules, but a living faith, binding and loosing as it will (Matt. 18:18; Jn. 20:21-23), according to circumstances, and according to what seems good to those in authority, and hopefully according to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). Jesus also said to do that which was instructed by those sitting in "Moses' seat" (Matt. 23:1-3), but the early Church decided that this either was no longer in effect, or at the very least not in effect for who they were writing to (Acts 15:1-29).

It seems that there is a big difference in getting a divorce, and remarrying after getting a divorce, particularly if you are the offending party.
Yes, yes and yes.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2012, 03:31:35 PM »

In light of Christ's words regarding divorce, the Church's remarriage clause has always bothered me as well.  
So, are you also bothered by Christ's instructions for the Church to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in council, to resolve issues?

Dunno, maybe.  After all, why would God the Holy Spirit contradict God the Son?  Can you post those verses for me though?  Thanks.

A rather thin understanding of the Holy Trinity,? You are questioning the Lord's directives I would say.
BTW, I do not proof-text, sorry.

Actually, a very good understanding of the Holy Trinity.  "I and the Father are one."  So, the question still remains.  BTW - not unusual when you have none.
John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the Word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on My account, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' 26 But when the Counselor comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, Who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to Me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning...16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth; for He will not speak on His Own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.

If you had a point, I certainly missed it (unless it was to use up bandwidth).  I see nothing above that would show that the Father contradicts the Son, or that the Holy Spirit contradicts what the Son has clearly stated.  In fact, the texts above would indicate that those who would make up things that are contrary to the teachings of Christ probably were not acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
If you presume to judge the Church, you contradict the Spirit Who guides her, the Son Who gave her His authority, and the Father who gave that authority to the Son to bestow on the Church to bind and loosen.

There were Donatists and others who questioned the Church on this.  They disappeared.  The Church did not.  Anyone who wishes to assume the Church's authority will meet a similar fate.  Or so Christ tells us (Matthew 16:18).

What you call the "Church".  Was Athanasius the Church or not?  We know from history that he was, and that the Arians were eventually defeated.  However, at the time, he was in communion with no-one.  What makes anyone think that all of those who call themselves "Orthodox" now are the Church?  We know that many are not.  I am not sure that I agree with the "official" way of determining who is and who is not, given that those in charge have often not been the Church throughout history.

As to divorce, I have spent some time recently reading through the Canons, the Scriptures and the various commentaries that I own.  Christ's words are pretty clear: a divorce for any reason other than adultery is in itself adultery.  There is some difference as to when this adultery occurs, with St. Theophilact (Orthodox) seeing it occurring upon remarriage, and Lenske (Lutheran) seeing it as occurring immediately, with the fault being upon the guilty party (the Confessional Lutheran's Sola Scriptura often keeps them on the more conservative side than the "Orthodox").  The Canons also seem to allow second (and third) marriages with great reservation, as well as penance being served for the remarrying parties.  It would appear that this "economy" was intended for remarriage after death or after a divorce as allowed by Christ, NOT after what we have today in the "no-fault' era.  Based on my recent readings, I cannot agree that the lists posted previously on this board in other topics by both the Greek and the Russian Churches are indeed "Orthodox".  But then again, there is probably little evidence that I am either.

However, this is certainly not my final word on what I believe.  I am going to spend more time today looking through different commentaries, by the Saints themselves, to see what has believed up until recently.  My mind is always open to change.  However, I would like to see more clear passages than what you quoted above.  If you are going to contradict what is clear and difficult to misunderstand, it is best to use clear contradictions and not something that requires a great deal of imagination to see.
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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

If you had a point, I certainly missed it (unless it was to use up bandwidth).  I see nothing above that would show that the Father contradicts the Son, or that the Holy Spirit contradicts what the Son has clearly stated.  In fact, the texts above would indicate that those who would make up things that are contrary to the teachings of Christ probably were not acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
If you presume to judge the Church, you contradict the Spirit Who guides her, the Son Who gave her His authority, and the Father who gave that authority to the Son to bestow on the Church to bind and loosen.

There were Donatists and others who questioned the Church on this.  They disappeared.  The Church did not.  Anyone who wishes to assume the Church's authority will meet a similar fate.  Or so Christ tells us (Matthew 16:18).

What you call the "Church".  Was Athanasius the Church or not?  We know from history that he was, and that the Arians were eventually defeated.  However, at the time, he was in communion with no-one.  What makes anyone think that all of those who call themselves "Orthodox" now are the Church?  We know that many are not.  I am not sure that I agree with the "official" way of determining who is and who is not, given that those in charge have often not been the Church throughout history.
"throughout history" is the key: Donatists and their imitators can't show a history from Christ until today.

We are agreed that "no-fault" "economia" is an abomination and perversion of the Gospel, demonstrated by the Vatican which will not formally acknowledge a divorce for adultery and the US legal system which basically will not allow divorce on a adultery fault basis.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 03:46:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2012, 07:53:42 PM »


then he ought to be concerned about how much adultery the Vatican is blessing.


I sooooooooooo wish there was a 'like' button in here.

I've been wondering about this topic as well.  Could divorce keep me out of the Orthodox church? 
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