OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 17, 2014, 09:56:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St Paul's writings  (Read 1395 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
doubtingthomas
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 73



« on: May 19, 2012, 04:11:26 AM »

Some of Paul's writings are very inspiring to me as I read them. Other writings (for example Paul's comments on women) tend to shock me. Surely in modern society we don't take Paul's advice on how to treat slaves or women, so how do we know what of Paul's writings contain useful knowledge for us as Christians and which can be taken merely as Paul's comments/opinions on the culture he found himself in while writing?
Logged

Theotokos and St. John Forerunner:
Continually pray for us to the Pantocrator that he may show mercy
wayseer
Disciple
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: No longer Anglican
Posts: 103


- a student


« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 07:27:50 AM »

Some of Paul's writings are very inspiring to me as I read them. Other writings (for example Paul's comments on women) tend to shock me. Surely in modern society we don't take Paul's advice on how to treat slaves or women, so how do we know what of Paul's writings contain useful knowledge for us as Christians and which can be taken merely as Paul's comments/opinions on the culture he found himself in while writing?

I know - it's not easy.  It took me years before I even wanted to read the OT because of all the mass killings and ethnic cleansing.

We have to accept that Paul was writing from within a particular culture and that in any writing, whether by Paul or anyone else, there is tension between history and theology.  It is also good to recognize that this tension between culture/history and theology is the dynamic creativity which creates doctrine and dogma.  But when that theology gets expressed, as in the many texts of the Early Fathers, such tension is, 'on one hand ineffable and mystical, on the other manifest and more knowable' (Dionysios Epistle iX PG3).  There is always a struggle to achieve anything like a balance.  

All of which indicates that unless you read the Bible within your prayer life you will inevitable struggle to maintain that balance.

I could quite easily tell you to disregard what Paul says about slaves but would that assist you in any way?  Probably not as such is only my personal opinion.  As Bishop Kallistos Ware acknowledges, the Bible is a personal letter from God to you - what you do with it is largely up to you - but only if you treat the text with humility and reverence and not as something about which you wantb to make a political statement.

There is a story (I forget where I read this story) about two coloured men working in a factory some years ago who decided that they were not going to walk the extra 100 meters to drink at their designated drinking tap - they drank at the white's only tap.  They were somewhat surprised that nothing happened - no one said anything yet any number of other workers had seen them.  Shortly before they finished work a older white worker came up to them and informed them that if they drank out the white's only tap again he, the older worker, would get the sack.  As he was only two years away from retiring with the company pension getting the sack would mean he would forego all of that pension.  Now, what do you think the two coloured workers decided to do?  If you were one of the coloured workers what would you have done?

« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:30:07 AM by wayseer » Logged

Not all those who wander are lost.
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 256



« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 09:05:40 AM »

It's always interesting people are so easy to throw out Paul's writings on Women and Slaves as a product of their time but not on Homosexuality. Paul is the only one in the new testement that mentions homosexuality. Jesus says if a man even thinks of another woman sexually other than their wife it's adultry but Christians in general seem way more bent on Homosexuality than Porn and other types of bad sexual thought.

Don't get me wrong I agree the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and I would leave the ELCA if I didn't go to the same church I was baptised in that I really have a good sense of community and that church has brought me to the strong faih I have and we have the best Pastor I've ever heard as far as giving sermons.

Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,275



« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 10:06:09 AM »

What is it about St. Paul's writings on slaves or women that disturbs you so?
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Big Chris
Formerly "mint"
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic Diocese of Charlotte, NC
Posts: 277

I live by the river where the old gods still dream


« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 10:25:47 AM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.
Logged

Tasting is Believing
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,275



« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 02:44:21 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »

Some of Paul's writings are very inspiring to me as I read them. Other writings (for example Paul's comments on women) tend to shock me. Surely in modern society we don't take Paul's advice on how to treat slaves or women, so how do we know what of Paul's writings contain useful knowledge for us as Christians and which can be taken merely as Paul's comments/opinions on the culture he found himself in while writing?

St. Paul writes one thing, modern people hear something completely different based on their own prejudices. For instance, where has St. Paul commanded anyone to beat slaves or demean women?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 04:50:50 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

Indeed. St. Paul makes things very easy for women. All wives have to do is respect their husbands, but husbands have to sacrifice themselves out of love, regardless of whether they get respect. So, really, he's not fair to men.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:51:25 PM by Shanghaiski » Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
peteprint
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 704



« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 05:11:52 PM »

It's always interesting people are so easy to throw out Paul's writings on Women and Slaves as a product of their time but not on Homosexuality. Paul is the only one in the new testement that mentions homosexuality. Jesus says if a man even thinks of another woman sexually other than their wife it's adultry but Christians in general seem way more bent on Homosexuality than Porn and other types of bad sexual thought.

Don't get me wrong I agree the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and I would leave the ELCA if I didn't go to the same church I was baptised in that I really have a good sense of community and that church has brought me to the strong faih I have and we have the best Pastor I've ever heard as far as giving sermons.




Hello Happy Lutheran,

I was somewhat surprised by your last statement, namely, that accept for your pastor and sense of community, you would leave the ELCA.  Please don't take this as criticism, but for me at least, what a denomination teaches is the most important thing.  I would personally have a very difficult time staying with a Church that I could not agree with doctrinally.

As a convert from Protestantism I admit that I had more of a sense of family (as well as lots of social activities) in the Protestant church, than I have now in the Orthodox parish I belong to, and I miss those things, but what the Church teaches was for me the kicker.  I had to go where I believed the true faith was being preached.
Logged
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 256



« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 05:25:26 PM »

It's always interesting people are so easy to throw out Paul's writings on Women and Slaves as a product of their time but not on Homosexuality. Paul is the only one in the new testament that mentions homosexuality. Jesus says if a man even thinks of another woman sexually other than their wife it's adultery but Christians in general seem way more bent on Homosexuality than Porn and other types of bad sexual thought.

Don't get me wrong I agree the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and I would leave the ELCA if I didn't go to the same church I was baptised in that I really have a good sense of community and that church has brought me to the strong Faith I have and we have the best Pastor I've ever heard as far as giving sermons.




Hello Happy Lutheran,

I was somewhat surprised by your last statement, namely, that accept for your pastor and sense of community, you would leave the ELCA.  Please don't take this as criticism, but for me at least, what a denomination teaches is the most important thing.  I would personally have a very difficult time staying with a Church that I could not agree with doctrinally.

As a convert from Protestantism I admit that I had more of a sense of family (as well as lots of social activities) in the Protestant church, than I have now in the Orthodox parish I belong to, and I miss those things, but what the Church teaches was for me the kicker.  I had to go where I believed the true faith was being preached.

I consider myself a Lutheran, A Catholic (not Roman) and a Christian more than I feel I'm in the ELCA. Plus the reason I would have left was due to it's stance on openly gay pastors, which is fairly new (My Father in Law is a Lutheran Pastor (not active) and they left the ELCA due to this). If I left it would be for the LCMS but I disagree with their stance on closed communion (even with other Lutherans) as when Christ said "Take this, eat, all of you" I take it literally just like I take "This IS my body" literally. When Paul says not to take Communion unworthily he says "examine yourself" not have 3rd party examine you. The ELCA practices open Communion and that's a big plus as someone who believes in Gods Grace and his understanding of our limitations. But that's a whole other argument I don't want to get into here. If the ELCA changed fundemental Lutheran doctrine like Faith alone and the Real Presence, yes I would leave the Church I spent my whole life in.

As much as I respect Orthodoxy I'm not looking to leave Lutheranism.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 05:44:11 PM by Happy Lutheran » Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
peteprint
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 704



« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 05:56:10 PM »

Thank you Happy Lutheran for sharing your thoughts on this, and I do respect your opinion.
Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,275



« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »

Quote from: Shanghaiski link=topic=44783.msg752279#msg752279
St. Paul writes one thing, modern people hear something completely different based on their own prejudices.

So true. And come to think of it, this is true for a lot of Scripture. Of course, we all interpret, based on our own biases, knowledge, experience, etc. One of the things that led me to Orthodoxy was that devout, pious and well-meaning Christians can read the same Scripture and come up with dozens of different interpretations. Orthodoxy answered my question: so how do you know?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:34:00 AM by katherineofdixie » Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Sauron
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 844


« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 10:20:33 AM »

If you don't like something in the Bible, you can just say, "it's a product of the writer's times" and then go about your business.

Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,275



« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 10:28:09 AM »

If you don't like something in the Bible, you can just say, "it's a product of the writer's times" and then go about your business.



LOL! Exactly!

(you guys are on a roll today!)
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
gonefishing
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 97



« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 11:54:57 PM »


Quote
As a convert from Protestantism I admit that I had more of a sense of family (as well as lots of social activities) in the Protestant church, than I have now in the Orthodox parish I belong to, and I miss those things, but what the Church teaches was for me the kicker.  I had to go where I believed the true faith was being preached.


Agreed wholeheartedly.  I've been to many other denominations though I was raised Catholic.  I've been to Methodist, Lutheran, Evangelist, Baptist, etc.  Seems to be focused mostly on 'fellowship' and they pound away at the same few verses over and over.  There's a lot to be said for the occasional spaghetti dinner or potluck, but the message is the most important thing.  If that's lacking, you come away empty.
Logged
wayseer
Disciple
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: No longer Anglican
Posts: 103


- a student


« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2012, 08:20:26 PM »

If you don't like something in the Bible, you can just say, "it's a product of the writer's times" and then go about your business.

If I 'like' something in the Bible I can say just as easily, 'It's a product of the writer's times', and then go on my way.

So I am not sure of what you attempting to say.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 08:20:55 PM by wayseer » Logged

Not all those who wander are lost.
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,427



WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2012, 09:27:50 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

It is because you have accepted your patriarchy-dominated role as an unenlightened non-member of the elite woman's ruling class that you cannot see that St Paul was very anti-woman. When he says "women submit to your husband" there is a sub-text of "or your husband shall make you submit with the back of his hand and be right doing so." Likewise with slaves, the beating portion is implied.

Truly, if only you had taken enough feminist studies classes you would realize that absolutely everything written before the twentieth century was intended to keep women out of the public circle. Even writing itself is a tool of the patriarchy- all those good and pure Goddess worshipping Matriarchies practiced oral transmission.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,007


"My god is greater."


« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2012, 09:39:31 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

It is because you have accepted your patriarchy-dominated role as an unenlightened non-member of the elite woman's ruling class that you cannot see that St Paul was very anti-woman. When he says "women submit to your husband" there is a sub-text of "or your husband shall make you submit with the back of his hand and be right doing so." Likewise with slaves, the beating portion is implied.

Truly, if only you had taken enough feminist studies classes you would realize that absolutely everything written before the twentieth century was intended to keep women out of the public circle. Even writing itself is a tool of the patriarchy- all those good and pure Goddess worshipping Matriarchies practiced oral transmission.

Unfortunately I have encountered people in real life who would say ALL of this with a straight face.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,427



WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2012, 09:42:46 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

It is because you have accepted your patriarchy-dominated role as an unenlightened non-member of the elite woman's ruling class that you cannot see that St Paul was very anti-woman. When he says "women submit to your husband" there is a sub-text of "or your husband shall make you submit with the back of his hand and be right doing so." Likewise with slaves, the beating portion is implied.

Truly, if only you had taken enough feminist studies classes you would realize that absolutely everything written before the twentieth century was intended to keep women out of the public circle. Even writing itself is a tool of the patriarchy- all those good and pure Goddess worshipping Matriarchies practiced oral transmission.

Unfortunately I have encountered people in real life who would say ALL of this with a straight face.

I guarantee you, I can indeed say all the above with a straight face- deadpan humor was mastered at an early age in my house.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
wayseer
Disciple
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: No longer Anglican
Posts: 103


- a student


« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2012, 08:00:38 PM »

I guarantee you, I can indeed say all the above with a straight face- deadpan humor was mastered at an early age in my house.

Which is yet another attribute of a masculine dominated society - that women still have to 'pretend' not to be offended.

Logged

Not all those who wander are lost.
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,275



« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 10:32:24 AM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

It is because you have accepted your patriarchy-dominated role as an unenlightened non-member of the elite woman's ruling class that you cannot see that St Paul was very anti-woman. When he says "women submit to your husband" there is a sub-text of "or your husband shall make you submit with the back of his hand and be right doing so." Likewise with slaves, the beating portion is implied.

Truly, if only you had taken enough feminist studies classes you would realize that absolutely everything written before the twentieth century was intended to keep women out of the public circle. Even writing itself is a tool of the patriarchy- all those good and pure Goddess worshipping Matriarchies practiced oral transmission.

I blush to confess that I probably said all this and more, at various points of my misspent youth. Perhaps I didn't take enough feminist studies classes, though?

Because when I actually studied St. Paul and Christian history, it was nothing like that at all!


Christianity was actually all about liberating women (and men too). Look at Perpetua and all the virgin martyrs who defied the power structure for their faith!
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Tgebar
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 84


This is the edge now, it's all we're living for.


« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 08:14:48 PM »

Are you really offended by Paul's writings on these matters, or who modern society conditioned you to think that you should feel culpable for something contained therein?

In my experience, it's often white middle-class males who feel shame for what Paul writes whereas minorities (and I am including women as a minority) have very little problem with what he says.

Thank you!

One of my pet peeves is an almost kneejerk reaction to St. Paul and "what he said about women." For me, a careful study revealed that St. Paul was entirely different in his attitude toward women, than "common knowledge" says.

It is because you have accepted your patriarchy-dominated role as an unenlightened non-member of the elite woman's ruling class that you cannot see that St Paul was very anti-woman. When he says "women submit to your husband" there is a sub-text of "or your husband shall make you submit with the back of his hand and be right doing so." Likewise with slaves, the beating portion is implied.

Truly, if only you had taken enough feminist studies classes you would realize that absolutely everything written before the twentieth century was intended to keep women out of the public circle. Even writing itself is a tool of the patriarchy- all those good and pure Goddess worshipping Matriarchies practiced oral transmission.

This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Oh, and HAIL THE PATRIARCHY!
Logged

Smiley
Sauron
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 844


« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 10:20:03 PM »

I guarantee you, I can indeed say all the above with a straight face- deadpan humor was mastered at an early age in my house.

Which is yet another attribute of a masculine dominated society - that women still have to 'pretend' not to be offended.

Who cares if someone is offended? The offense is an emotional reaction, not a logical argument.

Also, maybe the offended person's outlook is out of whack and they need to be offended.

Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.094 seconds with 49 queries.