Author Topic: The Christian East  (Read 4494 times)

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2013, 11:04:59 PM »
Credal orthodoxy, unbroken apostolic succession, uninterrupted true teaching about the Eucharist (yes, all three are Catholicism's criteria for valid orders) and the Eastern liturgies, Byzantine, Armenian, Assyrian, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, and Maronite. Using just the Vincentian canon (what has been believed always, everywhere, and by all), you pretty much get Catholicism; the Christian East is Catholicism in Eastern (Greek and Middle Eastern, and later Slavic) forms: very little defined doctrine but lots of beliefs and practices the same.

Communions of churches, the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, respectively, remarkably little to do with each other.

Eastern Christians: Canonical Orthodox, non-canonical Orthodox such as the Kiev Patriarchate, Orthodox splinters/outliers such as the Old Believers, Copts, Armenians, Assyrians, Ukrainian Catholics, et al. You get what I mean.

Not really Eastern Christians: Western vagantes who claim to have Eastern lines of succession (an un-Eastern way of looking at holy orders) because their founder 100 years ago got an Eastern bishop to ordain him, then left that church to become independent. Some Western vagantes have taken to trying to pass themselves off as Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:05:22 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Father H

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2013, 11:31:01 PM »
I don't like that term. So phyletic.

I'm with Michal. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2013, 11:44:26 PM »
Credal orthodoxy, unbroken apostolic succession, uninterrupted true teaching about the Eucharist (yes, all three are Catholicism's criteria for valid orders) and the Eastern liturgies, Byzantine, Armenian, Assyrian, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, and Maronite. Using just the Vincentian canon (what has been believed always, everywhere, and by all), you pretty much get Catholicism; the Christian East is Catholicism in Eastern (Greek and Middle Eastern, and later Slavic) forms: very little defined doctrine but lots of beliefs and practices the same.

Communions of churches, the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, respectively, remarkably little to do with each other.
???
Eastern Christians: Canonical Orthodox, non-canonical Orthodox such as the Kiev Patriarchate, Orthodox splinters/outliers such as the Old Believers, Copts, Armenians, Assyrians, Ukrainian Catholics, et al. You get what I mean.
I don't.
Not really Eastern Christians: Western vagantes who claim to have Eastern lines of succession (an un-Eastern way of looking at holy orders) because their founder 100 years ago got an Eastern bishop to ordain him, then left that church to become independent. Some Western vagantes have taken to trying to pass themselves off as Orthodox.
Clerici vagantes were a medieval pestilence of the West.  The episcopal variety grew out of Gerardus Gul and Arnold Matthew, themselves a branch of the Vatican that broke off at Utrecht.
Much like the Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem after Florence, and their candidate for "Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus'", Gregory the Bulgarian.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2013, 11:48:41 PM »
Not trying to restart this thread, but I was just thinking: It seems like the terms "Eastern Christianity" and the like are becoming elusive.  This is just based on my limited experience, but I just don't seem to hear those terms nearly as much now as a few years ago; and when I do hear them, usually they just seem to be dropped into conversation without any standing-behind.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2013, 09:19:41 PM »


Looking back on the last decade of my life, I think I sometimes indulged in a little bit of a pan-Eastern mentality, so to speak. I guess I liked to think that it didn't matter whether you were Catholic or Orthodox, so long as you were Eastern.

But various considerations have caused me to question that, including:
1. spending a lot of time around other "pan-Eastern" thinkers and not seeing a lot of good fruits
2. if I say that "It doesn't matter whether you're Catholic or Orthodox, so long as you are Eastern (Byzantine)" then am I deciding that I know better than either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church? I don't know but it's really something to stop and think about.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline The young fogey

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2013, 01:57:56 PM »


Looking back on the last decade of my life, I think I sometimes indulged in a little bit of a pan-Eastern mentality, so to speak. I guess I liked to think that it didn't matter whether you were Catholic or Orthodox, so long as you were Eastern.

The Eastern Catholic vision includes the Orthodox but Orthodox opinion doesn't necessarily, and often doesn't, include Eastern Catholics.

But various considerations have caused me to question that, including:
1. spending a lot of time around other "pan-Eastern" thinkers and not seeing a lot of good fruits
2. if I say that "It doesn't matter whether you're Catholic or Orthodox, so long as you are Eastern (Byzantine)" then am I deciding that I know better than either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church?

Exactly what's wrong with OicwR.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: The Christian East
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2013, 04:06:12 PM »
If only the person making these decisions lived in Kazakhstan, then Catholics and Orthodox could all be united as western Christians.