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Author Topic: Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect  (Read 11665 times) Average Rating: 0
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Vladik
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« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »

Do you know of any modern linguists who hold to Trubetzkoy's view regarding Ukrainian?

For instance Александр Каревин (Alexandr Karevin) a linguist and historian from Kiev (Ukraine).  Grin
http://alternatio.org/articles/library/item/146-
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« Reply #136 on: May 27, 2012, 05:13:17 AM »

For instance Александр Каревин (Alexandr Karevin) a linguist and historian from Kiev (Ukraine).  Grin

E.g. Karevin cites Пересторога, a polemical anti-Eastern Catholic pamphlet, written in Lemberg (L'vov) in 1605 - from all appearances - by Job Boretsky, a Ukrainian Orthodox Mitropolitan.    

«Как поляки в свой язык намешали слов латинских, которые тоже и простые люди по привычке употребляют, так же и Русь в свой язык намешали слов польских и оные употребляют»

His Eminence said that the Poles had inculcated Polish words into local Rusian language.

---
Karevin also cites Albert Campense (Кампензе), a Papal ambassador to Moscow, who had been to Lithuanian Rus' (modern Ukraine) and Moscow Rus' (Russia) during 1523-1524; Campense wrote to Rome that people from the both parts of Rus' considered to be the one people since they spoke the one language and confessed the one faith.  


U-word removed - MK
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 01:10:52 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Vladik
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« Reply #137 on: June 02, 2012, 05:55:08 AM »

Mikola Antoniewicz



A Ukrainian rusophile from Lemberg (Lviv), who wrote about the creation of Ukrainian language in Austrian Empire:

Не припускаю, даби чоловек просвещенный мôг бути так наивным и в то верити, чтоби сама сельська стріха була в состояніи доставити стôлько слов и фраз, чтоби наречие переменити в образований книжный языкъ

Translation: I don't understand how an educated man could be so naive to believe that a rural dialect could provide so many words and phrases in order to convert itself into a literary language. (see)

In the days of WW1, Antoniewicz was imprisoned into Talerhof concentration camp:

"Austro-Hungarian authorities imprisoned Ukrainian Russophiles, as well as other Ukrainians and Lemkos from Galicia and Bukovina. They were punished for their loyalty to the Russian language and culture, the people who had renounced the Russian language and identified themselves as Ukrainians they were released from the camp" Wikipedia


Talerhof, a camp of the Death



Executed in Talerhof Ukrainian priests
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 06:05:33 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: June 02, 2012, 06:12:41 AM »

There is a legend about Mankurt.

A man "...who defends his homeland from invasion. He is captured, tortured, and brainwashed into serving his homeland's conquerors. He is so completely turned that he kills his mother when she attempts to rescue him from captivity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankurt

Now we know, how the Ukrainian Mankurts have appeared.
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« Reply #139 on: June 02, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »

Toje vsio miełob sens kolib ukraińska mova vyvodyłasia z Lvivščyny, a ne z Połtavščyny (odkul vona vyvodytsia nasamreč).
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« Reply #140 on: June 02, 2012, 09:07:08 AM »

There is a legend about Mankurt.

A man "...who defends his homeland from invasion. He is captured, tortured, and brainwashed into serving his homeland's conquerors. He is so completely turned that he kills his mother when she attempts to rescue him from captivity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankurt

Now we know, how the Ukrainian Mankurts have appeared.
Yes, the Russian extremists.
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« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2012, 05:56:22 AM »

Guess it's common for some linguistialists (a self-created word) to say that Ukrainian and Belarusian is distorted Russian, which is distorted Old Church Slavonic, from which came also distorted languages like Macedonian and it's distorted form, Bulgarian.

Podlachian and Ruthenian on the other hand is distorted Polish, which is distorted Czech, Slovak is distorted Czech also, and Czech is distorted Moravian, which is distorted Sorbian, a form of distorted Serbian, and Serbian is distorted Croatian, which is distorted Serbo-Croatian... In the end the only "clean" language seems to be Slovenian, though one might argue that it's infected by German, although less than, for example, Silesian.

Dirty Slavs.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 05:57:53 AM by Pan Michał » Logged
Vladik
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« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2012, 08:09:24 AM »

An answer for this Νεκτάριος's post

Possession: Ukrainian pretty much always uses the verb to have (мати).  If you use this structure in Russian for concrete objects it can carry a bit of a vulgar meaning.  Its use is restricted to abstract concepts.  Russian uses this structure "at me there is X".   If a Ukrainian were to hop over to Moscow and say "Я маю пса" (I have a dog) he'd get some strange looks.  

You are wrong and too subjective. We also say: "Я имею собаку/дом/семью/усадьбу".
But in our days, it is more official style than a usual language; I’d say it is spoken language of the 19th century, there among noble families. Either intelligentsia or nerds would use this in their usual language in our days.
Moreover, the words “иметь, поиметь" –got a little different meaning there in vulgar slang, which does mean "to have sex with somebody" (I guess it appeared about 30 years ago). Thus: “Я имею собаку” does mean there in gangster slang: “I’m having sex with a dog [right now]”, on the other hand it still does mean: “I have a dog” there in literary language.
Nerds, gangsters and intelligentsia use this word in different ways, but it is still in use.  


Quote
Negation:  Like pretty much every other Slavic language Ukrainian uses нема to negate the existence of something.  Russian uses нет.  

Motion: Ukrainian uses до + genitive, Russian uses в / на + accusative

Obligation: Ukrainian uses мати + infinitive.  There is no analogous structure in Russian.  

Genitive of masculine singular: Ukrainian maintains the a / у distinction.  In common usage Russian has this in a grand total of one word: чаю (tea).

These are just a few examples of grammatical (i.e non-lexical differences) between Ukrainian and Russian.  Interestingly enough Ukrainian shares all of the above mentioned features with neighboring West Slavic languages, i.e Polish and Slovak.  BTW, all of these features also exist in Balachka (the easternmost of the Ukrainian dialects - way beyond the influence of the Rzeczpospolita).  The dialects used in the standardization of the language were in fact all outside of former Polish territory.  
 
What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?
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« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2012, 08:31:41 AM »

Thus: “Я имею собаку” does mean there in gangster slang: “I’m having sex with a dog [right now]”
You have a lot of use for this sentence?
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« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2012, 08:52:19 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 08:52:37 AM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2012, 10:21:25 PM »

What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?

I gave examples of the structures I was speaking about.  If you want more simply use yandex.ua. 
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« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2012, 11:59:50 PM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences. 
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« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2012, 12:00:41 AM »

Motion: Ukrainian uses до + genitive, Russian uses в / на + accusative

Ukrainian: Іти до магазину
Russian: Идти в магазин

But the Russians also say: "схожу до магазина, схожу до пацанов" etc., though it is a vulgar language. The phrase "схожу до магазину" will be either very ironical or very vulgar, dipending on a context (speech of a yokel or an intellectual).

What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?

I gave examples of the structures I was speaking about.  If you want more simply use yandex.ua.  

You didn't give examples for the majority of your claims.
Ok, it's your problem.
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« Reply #148 on: August 07, 2012, 12:04:49 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.
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« Reply #149 on: August 07, 2012, 12:42:55 AM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences.  

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

American, British and Australian English differ in grammar, lexicon and phonetics, but they are dialects of the one language. Why?
The Germans don't understand each other, why they speak the one language? The Brits don't understand each other, why they speak the one language?
Mexican Spanish differs from Madrid Spanish even in the syntax, but they still are considered to be some dialects of the one Spanish language.

Ukrainian and Russian are more close to each other than the mentioned examples. And only the politicians divide them into different languages.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:46:43 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #150 on: August 07, 2012, 01:19:07 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it that someone living in Kyrgyzstan thinks he knows everything about Ukraine and Moscow?

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« Reply #151 on: August 07, 2012, 01:19:44 AM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences. 

I am pleased to hear you are no longer ignorant on the matter.  Cheesy
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« Reply #152 on: August 07, 2012, 01:29:06 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it that someone living in Kyrgyzstan thinks he knows everything about Ukraine and Moscow?



I live in Southern Semirechye, i.e. a land which was colonised by Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and Germans. Moreover this land used to be the one country with Ukraine 20 years ago (de facto it is still the one country).
Those who live in California know more about New York and Alabama (regions of the one country), than know those who live in Ganduras.
In addition pure Russian language is my mother tongue, and I understand it - with all its dialects - better than you or other aliens. And I have Ukrainian relatives either.

BTW Ukraine and Southern Semirechye share the mutual Commonwealth and free market.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:55:58 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #153 on: August 07, 2012, 01:49:02 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

You run across both forms.  If you search around the internet there a bit of controversy about which form is correct.  

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.  Related languages, dialect continuum, etc.  Nobody is contesting the fact that knowing a neighboring language (i.e. Polish, Slovak, Ruthenian, Belarusian, Russian, etc) means that it is very easy to develop a passive understanding of Ukrainian.      

I'm with Liza in the sense that I simply don't understand why so many Russian Chauvinists are obsessed with Ukrainian and trying disparage it.  Russian is a beautiful and wonderful language; I don't see how the very existence of Ukrainian threatens that.
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« Reply #154 on: August 07, 2012, 01:54:10 AM »

Those who live in California know more about New York and Alabama (regions of the one country), than know those who live in Ganduras.

You'd be surprised.  I know California fairly well.  I have some idea of New York due to the fact that it is constantly in the news, is often the subject of film, literature, art etc.  I don't really have the slightest clue about Alabama or the rest of the South.  They have their own culture and traditions which are a bit different than the rest of the US.  Even more so for the former USSR, which has far greater geographical and linguistic diversity than the US. 
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« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2012, 02:14:44 AM »

Why is this dumb thread still be posted in?

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history and their own national interests and their own need for a vehicle to express these things and many other things that are distinct on some level from the same aspects of surrounding cultures. There are phonetic, syntactic, lexical, and other differences between Ukrainian and standard Russian, but as a disinterested linguist the only thing I can go by is mutual intelligibility. I would not be surprised if the newer generation of Ukrainians, or at least some of them, professed to not be able to understand Russian. After all, they would not have had it shoved down their throats as their parents and grandparents did in the Soviet times. Why is this such a problem?

The idea that they should be considered the same language may have some traction, but it also may be subordinated to political or other social concerns. If a person from Montenegro can speak "Montenegrin" (but only since October 2007), and an Afghan and a Persian can embrace their different language standards (Dari/Afghan Persian for the Afghan, and Farsi for the Persian), then surely a Russian chauvinist can let Ukrainians have their own language even if he thinks it's just funny sounding Russian. I wouldn't even deny the OP the right to continue to think that, of course -- in fact, that's what it sounds like to me (sorry, Ukrainians). The difference between Vladik and me, however, is that I recognize that this is because I learned Russian before being exposed to Ukrainian, so of course I'd think that. That doesn't really make Ukrainian some kind of perverted Russian, though. If anything, that's a testament to the political and social domination of the Russian people within that sphere of influence and how it impacts language learning (there are probably many times more Russian language and Russian history programs in American universities than there are Ukrainian ones, and those Russian programs are likely to treat Ukrainians and Belarusians as an afterthought). So to decry political influences in language taxonomies rings a little hollow when you, a proud Russian speaker, benefit from those same political influences. Did you ever stop to think how it would be if the capital of the empire had stayed at Kiev and the Muscovites were the ones speaking all that funny talk?

There is absolutely no advantage of having Ukrainian declared a "Russian dialect", by the way. Even if you had the power to do so, it would do nothing but tick off a bunch of people who have already rejected your cultural and linguistic dominance. The nationalistic feelings that give birth to such distinctions (or, rather, that exploit preexisting distinctions in speech forms) exist before the standardization schemes that create an "official language" in the first place. To say that "x people speak this language" you have to recognize x people as a legitimate socio-cultural unit in the first place, and for most of the world that process is legitimized through having their own language. Or don't you remember the Moldavian/Romanian distinction that your internationalist heroes the Soviets did nothing to discourage. Apparently they, like the Ukrainians, were legitimate enough to be divided into a constituent republic, so what's the problem? Now that they are their own state, they can't name their language whatever they want? That's essentially the position you're putting the Ukrainians in vis-a-vis Russian, Vladik...but something tells me you don't care so much about that parallel situation since it has zero impact on Russian cultural chauvinism, which is what this thread is really about (and almost a textbook example of).
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« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2012, 04:12:46 AM »

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

It is very strange to hear this. Russia and Ukraine used to be the one country (Ruthenia) from 882 A.D. up to the 12th century when Ruthenia broke down into a Confederation of 13 independent Principalities. This soft Confederation collapsed under the Mongolian invasion in the 13th century (thus 4 centuries together!).
Then Moscow gathered the good half of the mentioned Principalities under the Moscovite throne, and the rest (modern Ukraine and Belarus) were captured by Poland, where there Ukrainians were treated as subhumans. Ukrainians started a war for independence and asked Moscow to help them. That's why Ukrainians entered into Union with Russia in 1654, the rest of Ukraine joined in 1793. Thus Ukraine and Russia were the one country again, up to 1917 (263 years).
In 1918 Ukraine became independent up to 1922, when she created a new Union with Russia and Belarus, this lasted up to 1991 (69 years).

Thus Russia and Ukraine have at least 732 years of the common history, as the one State.
How old is the USA? Something like 300 years?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:16:11 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2012, 04:49:12 AM »

Vladik, by no means take this as an attack on your person, I am arguing only with your statements, if you'll feel offended, I am sorry, didn't mean to.

That's why Ukrainians entered into Union with Russia in 1654, the rest of Ukraine joined in 1793. Thus Ukraine and Russia were the one country again, up to 1917 (263 years).
In 1918 Ukraine became independent up to 1922, when she created a new Union with Russia and Belarus, this lasted up to 1991 (69 years).

Thus Russia and Ukraine have at least 732 years of the common history, as the one State.
How old is the USA? Something like 300 years?

I suppose that is why the Cossack Sich was eliminated by Catherine II, that's why Ukrainians fought for liberating Ukraine from Russia in XIX and XX century, and so forth. Don't ask me, I'm Pole. Ask Ukrainians what do they think about this so called "Ukrainian independence" under Tsar's rule.

And I like the "the rest of Ukraine was joined in 1793" Smiley. For those unfamiliar with the subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Partition_of_Poland

Oh, and there was no such thing as Russia or Ukraine in the medieval times. It's like saying that France as a country has a history dating from 51 BC.
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« Reply #158 on: August 07, 2012, 09:38:44 AM »

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.

Same for me.

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Russian is a beautiful and wonderful language.

No, it's not. Too sophisticated.

and the rest (modern Ukraine and Belarus) were captured by Poland

By GDL.
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« Reply #159 on: August 07, 2012, 02:46:57 PM »

Thank you, Michals, for dealing with Vladik's silly reply so that I don't have to. Grin

Vladik: The USA is not the issue here. And neither is however many years you can find Ukrainians and Russians having shared history. Many countries have long histories of relations (including shifts in dominance in the relationship), but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people. Quit being silly.
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« Reply #160 on: August 07, 2012, 10:37:31 PM »

Thank you, Michals, for dealing with Vladik's silly reply so that I don't have to. Grin

Vladik: The USA is not the issue here. And neither is however many years you can find Ukrainians and Russians having shared history. Many countries have long histories of relations (including shifts in dominance in the relationship), but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people. Quit being silly.

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.

You said: 

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

I showed you why you are wrong. Ukraine and Russia have 732 years of the common history. Your initial argument failed.

but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people.

Russians and Ukrainians (Руськие [Russians] how they called themselves) were initialy the one people of Ruthenia. Then they were devided but there always was a yearning for the reunification among them.
Those who don't know history or refute the facts are silly. Stop insulting me, or I'll start doing the same.
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« Reply #161 on: August 07, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.

What's that? More nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Not surprising.

Quote
The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

I showed you why you are wrong. Ukraine and Russia have 732 years of the common history. Your initial argument failed.

See Pan Michal's reply to your post for a refutation of your idea that this somehow makes Ukrainians and Russians the same people. He expressed it much better than I could.

Quote
Russians and Ukrainians (Руськие [Russians] how they called themselves) were initialy the one people of Ruthenia. Then they were devided but there always was a yearning for the reunification among them.


Well then I guess they really screwed things up by voting +90% for Ukraine's independence on December 1, 1991. Whoops.

Quote
Those who don't know history or refute the facts are silly.


Those who manipulate history in order to keep alive their dream of Russian hegemony over people who have clearly and quite successfully rejected it are more sad than silly. You are sad, sad man.

Quote
Stop insulting me, or I'll start doing the same.


I'm pretty sure you opened your reply with an undeserved and bizarrely irrelevant insult toward me, but I will not repay you in kind. In accordance with your belief that being called "silly" is a grave insult of some kind, I will refer to you from here on out as a sad individual.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 10:59:20 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #162 on: August 08, 2012, 12:33:59 AM »

Vladik, by no means take this as an attack on your person, I am arguing only with your statements, if you'll feel offended, I am sorry, didn't mean to.

It's ok.  Wink I wish the rest of members here were like you.
But we are talking about the language and linguistic issueshere, though we can open a new topic to cross our swords there and avoid an offtopic here.  Wink

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I suppose that is why the Cossack Sich was eliminated by Catherine II

Earlier I had opened a topic about such myths: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46134.0.html (it's located in a privite forum, where you probably have no eccess yet).

I'll cite a bit from there:

The [Zaporozhian] outposts were just moved to a new border (modern Kuban), which is next to Caucasus. Considering, the Cossacks were soldiers it's ok for soldiers to change their dislocation.  
And simple Cossacks were predimenantly happy because they got an excuse to get rid of their "Oligarchs", who had been exploiting them as servants (they were soldiers, not serfs).
But the "Oligarchs" didn't want to comply with the military duty and oath of allegiance. That's why some of them were punished (e.g. Pan Kalnishewsky, who was exiled to live in a monastery).
And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).


And FYI, Russians also fought against Tsarina Catherine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev's_Rebellion  
Yes, Ukrainians and Russians didn't like the Government. So what?

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that's why Ukrainians fought for liberating Ukraine from Russia in XIX and XX century

I don't understand about the 19 th century, probably you mean some Polish uprisings, which no doubt weren't Ukrainian.
As for the 20th century, a Nazi criminal Bandera (who was born and  brainwashed  in Austria) fought against Ukrainians either (his people were trained in German Abwehr e.i. German military intelligence).

From the mentioned topic (Bandera's crimes):

"Moskali (a derogatory term for Russians), Poles, Jews are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia"... ... "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated"... "Destroy their leaders." In late 1942, some Ukrainian nationalist groups were involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Volhynia, and in early 1944, these campaigns began to include Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that over 40,000 Poles killed during spring and summer of 1943 campaign in Volhynia. by certain Ukrainian groups including the OUN-Bandera which bears primary responsibility for the massacres.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Views_towards_other_ethnic_groups

The Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia ... were part of an ethnic cleansing operation carried out by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) North in the Nazi-occupied regions of Volhynia (Reichskommissariat Ukraine) and UPA-South in Eastern Galicia (General Government) beginning in March 1943 and lasting until the end of 1944. The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age. Despite this, most of the victims were women and children. The actions of the UPA resulted in 40,000-60,000 Polish civilian casualties in Volhynia, and from 25,000 to 30,000-40,000 in Eastern Galicia. ... The killings were directly linked with the policies of the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

"Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jewish assimilation is not possible." Later in June Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he indicated - "We are creating a militia which would help to get remove the Jews and protect the population." Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of ""Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry. In 1941-1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions".
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia



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Ask Ukrainians what do they think about this so called "Ukrainian independence" under Tsar's rule.

Ask them what they think about the current Ukrainian independence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekS-YOuUBzk

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And I like the "the rest of Ukraine was joined in 1793" Smiley. For those unfamiliar with the subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Partition_of_Poland

So what? The Ukrainian lands, which were occupied by Poles, were freed from Poles. Of course you don't like it.  

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there was no such thing as Russia or Ukraine in the medieval times

Yes, a concept of Ukraine apeared in 19th century by Austrians, but I meant the territory and people in the borders of modern Russia and Ukraine.  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 12:38:19 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #163 on: August 08, 2012, 01:25:36 AM »

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.
What's that? More nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Not surprising.

It's a reply to your insult, which you started calling me "silly".

See Pan Michal's reply to your post for a refutation of your idea that this somehow makes Ukrainians and Russians the same people. He expressed it much better than I could.

If Pan Michal would say that Russians eat each other and move with heads over heels, you'd believe him with a great joice, since you are a prejudiced one. Wink

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Well then I guess they really screwed things up by voting +90% for Ukraine's independence on December 1, 1991. Whoops.

77.8% Soviets voted to save the SU, including Ukrainians on March 17, 1991
As for the referendum hold on December 1, 1991 - it took place after the State Committee on the State of Emergency's coup (20 August, 1991) , which de facto destroyed the Union.
In addition a lot of Ukrainians considered that referendum to be a confirmation of Ukrainian independence within the SU (according to the Soviet constitution Ukraine was an independent State). And in our days the majority of Ukrainians regret it, and consider themselves to be fooled.

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I'm pretty sure you opened your reply with an undeserved and bizarrely irrelevant insult toward me, but I will not repay you in kind. In accordance with your belief that being called "silly" is a grave insult of some kind, I will refer to you from here on out as a sad individual.

I'm sorry, but It's you who insulted me first. In our culture it's all the same to say: "you are stupid" or "you are silly".

P.S.
Let's avoid offtopics.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 01:30:33 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #164 on: August 08, 2012, 01:53:34 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
[/color]

 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   
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« Reply #165 on: August 08, 2012, 02:26:59 AM »

It's a reply to your insult, which you started calling me "silly".


Are you being serious right now? Huh

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If Pan Michal would say that Russians eat each other and move with heads over heels, you'd believe him with a great joice, since you are a prejudiced one. Wink

What news! I spend 6-7 years of my life learning Russian, only to find out I hate Russians. I wonder if any of my Russian friends know this yet... Grin

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77.8% Soviets voted to save the SU, including Ukrainians on March 17, 1991
As for the referendum hold on December 1, 1991 - it took place after the State Committee on the State of Emergency's coup (20 August, 1991) , which de facto destroyed the Union.
In addition a lot of Ukrainians considered that referendum to be a confirmation of Ukrainian independence within the SU (according to the Soviet constitution Ukraine was an independent State). And in our days the majority of Ukrainians regret it, and consider themselves to be fooled.

Yes, I am well aware. But I also remember seeing news footage from around that time with interviews of people from various republics (I'm not sure if there were any of Ukrainians; I remember one Uzbek and one Kyrgyz and some others) who were also in favor of SU, but for mostly economic reasons, which is something a bit different than your "yearning". Recognizing economic benefits of a union is not the same as claiming, as you do, that Russians and Ukrainians are the same. I don't think anyone here is denying that they are similar and speak very similar languages (like I wrote earlier, Ukrainian sounds pretty much like Russian to me; I don't have much trouble understanding spoken Ukrainian). But this does not make Ukrainians and Russians the same. Even if they have X years together with Russians, that they have developed their own culture (whether it is from the 17th century or whatever) is not really debatable. And, likewise, the political realities of language use and codification/standardization are important, not some sort of "extra" or unrelated thing to be disparaged because you don't want to recognize them. It was political and social influences that led to the codification of Russian around the Muscovite standard, was it not? Like I wrote before, things could have gone the other way, and the Muscovites could be the ones who would be speaking "funny Russian", or even (боже упаси!) "funny Ukrainian". For you to ignore the social reality of language and persist in saying "Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian" is very foolish. Either you are unaware of the existence of dialect continua (which explain why neighboring languages are much more similar than more geographically distant languages), or you don't see the irony in decrying "politicians" who have split up one unified people while simultaneously declaring that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian...either way, it is hard to take you seriously sometimes, Vladik.

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I'm sorry, but It's you who insulted me first. In our culture it's all the same to say: "you are stupid" or "you are silly".

Now you want to make me a Russian, too? Who's this "we"? You've got a мышь in your pocket? In English, which is the language we are communicating in in this thread, "silly" is a far more polite and inoffensive thing to call people than "stupid" or any of the other things I could have written. I am sorry that you took it as an insult, but it is not one, nor was it intended as one. It's not really same as глупый; it's more like смешной or something like that. Absurd, ridiculous, comical.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:27:18 AM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #166 on: August 08, 2012, 03:18:17 AM »

It's not really same as глупый; it's more like смешной or something like that. Absurd, ridiculous, comical.

In that case, I'm sincerely sorry.
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« Reply #167 on: August 08, 2012, 03:20:53 AM »

It's okay. I apologize as well for not taking this into account when writing my earlier reply. I should have known better.
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« Reply #168 on: August 08, 2012, 03:28:04 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
[/color]

 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

For instance the head of Dnepropetrovsk region opened the Center of Russian culture there in Dnepropetrovsk:

«В нашем регионе с уважением относятся к русскому языку и культуре. Открытие культурного центра в Днепропетровске дает новые возможности для эффективного сотрудничества с Россией и дополнительные импульсы для взаимного развития»,— отметил Александр Вилкул.

The Center will popularize Russian language and culture. See: http://dneprovka.dp.ua/t11426/


It's okay. I apologize as well for not taking this into account when writing my earlier reply. I should have known better.

 Wink
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« Reply #169 on: August 08, 2012, 04:03:18 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
[/color]

 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

For instance the head of Dnepropetrovsk region opened the Center of Russian culture there in Dnepropetrovsk:

«В нашем регионе с уважением относятся к русскому языку и культуре. Открытие культурного центра в Днепропетровске дает новые возможности для эффективного сотрудничества с Россией и дополнительные импульсы для взаимного развития»,— отметил Александр Вилкул.

The Center will popularize Russian language and culture. See: http://dneprovka.dp.ua/t11426/

It is a tricky issue as many assumptions turn out to be incorrect. 

The big industrial cities of Dnipropetrovshchyna are russophone (more or less standard Russian with a light Ukrainian accent): Dnipropetrovsk, Dniprodzerzhynsk and Crooked Horn.  Outside of those cities you'll mostly encounter the local dialect of Ukrainian.  Even in the big cities you'll meet this Ukrainian in the local markets.   

What all of this means in real life is that people here generally respect both languages and cultures.  The extremist positions that are more typical of L'viv or Odessa (or mini-Greece, ahem Kyiv) are incredibly rare here.  In my experience the overwhelming majority of Russophones and lovers or Russian culture are patriotic Ukrainians who love the independence of Ukraine.  Even in Dnipropetrovsk most of the schools are Ukrainian medium, and there is no real protest about that.  It is a very live and let live atmosphere. 

None of this translates into nostalgia for the USSR, support for uniting with Russia or any love for the Kremlin like you seem to have implied earlier.           
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« Reply #170 on: August 08, 2012, 04:48:54 AM »

My impression is that in Kryvyi Rih, there is a lot more Ukrainian spoken than in the rest of Eastern Ukraine. There is some nostalgia for the USSR, but no sympathy for reunification with Russia.
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« Reply #171 on: August 08, 2012, 05:12:05 PM »

Vladik, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about those offtop subject Smiley. It'd be nice to hear how "the second side" views this. I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones. And we all know, that we have at least two Ukraines today, sadly. If you feel like this, that is. We could open a new thread and start from the beginning, because here it's so tangled, that I barely can find statement-reply chain.
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« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2012, 06:37:09 AM »

Vladik, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about those offtop subject Smiley.

OK. You may open a new topic and give me a link.
It could be carried out there is in Politics (a private forum here), but as for me I don't like that section because there is no any moderation (everybody trolls, offtopics and ad hominem arguments, in a word that is a hell on earth for an intellectual discussion). That's why I didn't open it by myself. Though, maybe we could find another section or even another massageboard. Wink

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I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones.

Actually that's the Galician (West-Ukraine) point of view. Central Ukrainian and South-East ones are exremely different in their opinions about Russia.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:38:52 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2012, 06:52:12 AM »

The big industrial cities of Dnipropetrovshchyna are russophone (more or less standard Russian with a light Ukrainian accent): Dnipropetrovsk, Dniprodzerzhynsk and Crooked Horn.  Outside of those cities you'll mostly encounter the local dialect of Ukrainian.  Even in the big cities you'll meet this Ukrainian in the local markets.    

What all of this means in real life is that people here generally respect both languages and cultures.  The extremist positions that are more typical of L'viv or Odessa (or mini-Greece, ahem Kyiv) are incredibly rare here.  In my experience the overwhelming majority of Russophones and lovers or Russian culture are patriotic Ukrainians who love the independence of Ukraine.  Even in Dnipropetrovsk most of the schools are Ukrainian medium, and there is no real protest about that.  It is a very live and let live atmosphere.

Congratualtions, you simply repeated my words:

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

It seems you never read my posts *palmface*

---

None of this translates into nostalgia for the USSR, support for uniting with Russia or any love for the Kremlin like you seem to have implied earlier.      
   

1. Nostalgia for the USSR is "Sovietophilia", and there are a lot of Sovietophiles.
2. Nobody loves modern Kremlin, even the Russians, even me. Please don't confuse Russian people and Kremlin.
3. Re-unifications differ: it could be a Union like the EU, it could be a Confederation, it could be a Unitary State (as for me, I don't want a Unitary State with Ukraine).
I prefer a Union like the EU (first of all economical and military Union), with maintenance and keeping of Ukrainian Statehood, Independence, culture and dialect. And the majority of Ukrainians would support such an opinion.
4. Russia and Belarus (White Russia) are the Union State already  Tongue
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:55:20 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2012, 07:51:00 AM »

PM sent, waiting for a reply.

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I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones.

Actually that's the Galician (West-Ukraine) point of view. Central Ukrainian and South-East ones are exremely different in their opinions about Russia.

Actually, most of West Ukraine is anti Russian, most of central Ukraine is mixed leaning to neutral, and most of Eastern Ukraine is pro Russian. By knowing people from most of those sides I can say that they'd confirm.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 08:08:16 AM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2012, 11:58:43 AM »

Let's stop posting about Politics or I'm going to lock it.
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« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2012, 12:00:51 PM »

Let's stop posting about Politics or I'm going to lock it.

EOT from my side.
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« Reply #177 on: August 10, 2012, 02:00:32 AM »

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.  Related languages, dialect continuum, etc.  Nobody is contesting the fact that knowing a neighboring language (i.e. Polish, Slovak, Ruthenian, Belarusian, Russian, etc) means that it is very easy to develop a passive understanding of Ukrainian.      

I can't read an article in Slovakian. If the best happened I can understand only 30% of a Slovakian text or something like this.
Bulgarian and Serbian are more understandable, but still I can understand 99% Ukrainian and Belarusian texts only, there among Slavic languages.  
As for the Belarusian, it is even more close to the Russian, since there were no Austrian intrigues. Wink

P.S. The city of Uzhgorod was a part of Slaviakia up to 1945, when it was joint to Ukraine. I bet modern Ukrainian Nazis do their best to substitute all Moscovite-like lexicon and grammar for something from Uzhgorod/Lviv and so on, there in artificial academical Ukrainian, which is taught there in schoolsuniversities.


 "Украінскіе нацысты" - гэты тэрмін недапушчальны ў публічнай частцы форума. Раю перанесціся ў сэкцыю "Палітыка".

Сем дзён папярэджання - МК.
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