Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect

[ialmisry]

And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.

Doch, it does: the diphthong ьо does sound like the Russian letter ё.

and יו sounds like the same in Hebrew. Doesn't have a thing to do with Ukrainian phonology either.

[ialmisry]

And хто means "who" in Ukrainian

No doubt, I wouldn't understand that "hto" does mean "kto" without your "help" (sarcasm).  

кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.

[Vladik]

кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.

In your fantasies.
Compare how the English Queen pronounces the word "hot" and how do those from the Wild West. And then tell me that "hat" and "hot" are different words from English and  American languages (the same how they pronounce "g" in Northern and Southern German).

[ialmisry]

that is declension. Not syntax.

We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.

evidently not:
http://www.warsaw-life.com/sleep/hotels_details/71-Czarny_Kot

The hotel's name is an Americanism.

"As you can see from the example above, the adjective comes after the noun"
http://mylanguages.org/polish_adjectives.php

put in the correct form "czarna kotka" on polish google, and all sorts of results come up.

[ialmisry]

кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.

In your fantasies.

No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.

Compare how the English Queen pronounces the word "hot" and how do those from the Wild West. And then tell me that "hat" and "hot" are different words from English and  American languages (the same how they pronounce "g" in Northern and Southern German).

and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?

[Vladik]

No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.

Printed in Lemberg.

and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?

I always had a dim suspicion that American language is another one than Brittish. Many thanks to your logic for opening my eyes (sarcasm).

[Vladik]

put in the correct form "czarna kotka" on polish google, and all sorts of results come up.

"Descriptive adjectives usually appear before the noun while adjectives used to classify nouns tend to come after". http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Polish_nouns_and_adjectives

Thus, the Russian and Polish syntaxes are still different.

[Νεκτάριος]

And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.

Doch, it does: the diphthong ьо does sound like the Russian letter ё.

and יו sounds like the same in Hebrew. Doesn't have a thing to do with Ukrainian phonology either.

It isn't worth wasting time to discuss anything with someone who believes something in the realm of science (linguistics in this case) due to a religious belief (Russian chauvinism in this case).  In most cases ьо is used to transliterate Russian last names into Ukrainian.  There is no natural shift from e to ьо like Russian е to ё due to shifting stress patterns in Ukrainian.  The use of і rather than о or е in closed syllables is a unique phonetic feature of Ukrainian not shared by either Polish or Russian.  But what would I know.  I only deal with this stuff everyday at work both as a translator and teacher.  I actually talk to native Ukrainian speakers everyday.  Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda from his computer in Kyrgyzstan.   

[Vladik]

I only deal with this stuff everyday at work both as a translator and teacher.  I actually talk to native Ukrainian speakers everyday. 

A famous Ukrainian philosopher Anatoly Vasserman (from Odessa), speaks perfect Ukrainian since his youth and consider it a dialect of the Russian.
He explains his point of view here:

"Вассерман считает украинский язык диалектом русского" http://korrespondent.net/russia/776455
"Вассерман: укранского языка нет" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStdlSeRBw0
"Анатолий Вассерман - Разом нас богато" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUQlzrLN1mc
"Вассерман про Украину, Польшу и Россию" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-mtwfB1634

[Vladik]

Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

[Vladik]

It isn't worth wasting time to discuss anything with someone who believes something in the realm of science (linguistics in this case) due to a religious belief (Russian chauvinism in this case). 

Considering I'm an open-minded person, gimme some reliable facts and I'll change my mind.

[jmbejdl]

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages. The former is the descendant of Old Saxon (Ingvaeonic), the latter of Franconian (Erminonic). Plattdeutsch is certainly far more closely related to English and Frisian (though not Dutch as that's Istvaeonic) than it is to Hochdeutsch. All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

James

[Vladik]

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages.

Well, if they don't have the same syntax, just give a link on a relaible source instead of doing empty ad personal arguments.

All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics

A very good ad personal argument without any other arguments to the point.
A familiar translator of me, once translated a Frisian text through his knowledge of the German, he said: "C'mon it's just a dialect of the German". I don't know, but he is a profi, and -I must say- a good profi .

and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

You are drawing conclusions about Ukrainian language through my undesrtanding of German syntax through my familiar German translator? Cool.

[jmbejdl]

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages.

Well, if they don't have the same syntax, just give a link on a relaible source instead of doing empty ad personal arguments.

All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics

A very good ad personal argument without any other arguments to the point.
A familiar translator of me, once translated a Frisian text through his knowledge of the German, he said: "C'mon it's just a dialect of the German". I don't know, but he is a profi, and -I must say- a good profi .

There was no personal attack at all - it was simply an observation that you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of linguistics when making claims such as you do. Incidentally there's much, much more to a language than syntax (which is basically sentence structure) such as morphology, phonology etc. The fact that you seem to think syntax is the be-all and end-all of linguistic analysis serves to reinforce my impressions of your knowledge of the area.

And being able to understand one language by using another doesn't make the two dialects of each other. I can understand Italian pretty well because I speak Romanian - that doesn't mean that either language is a dialect of the other - it means that they are related languages because they share Latin as an ancestor. Frisian and Hochdeutsch are both West Germanic languages so it's hardly a surprise to find that they're related but one is most definitely not a dialect of the other. Same goes for Plattdeutsch.

and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

You are drawing conclusions about Ukrainian language through my undesrtanding of German syntax through my familiar German translator? Cool.

No, I'm drawing conclusions about your degree of understanding of linguistics, which doesn't seem up to the task of determining whether or not we should consider Ukrainian a dialect of Russian, which reinforces the impression that you are basing your analysis on a priori political position rather than on anything else. I've already said earlier in the thread that I have no specific knowledge of the development of Ukrainian and Russian. I do, however, have a background in linguistics and I tend to react with scepticism when people demonstrate the paucity of knowledge you have whilst adamantly arguing from a political position - that's no different to what happened with Moldova under Stalin.

James

[Νεκτάριος]

Vlad, I don't know where to really start since you seem to reject the entire classification system of modern linguistics.  Wasserman is an extremist politician.  I'd hardly take his views as definitive.   Start with the wikipedia article on Ukrainian.  It is well sourced with academic citations.  A rambling youtube video isn't an academic citation. 

Do you mean Kyiv?  Kyiv is the capital of Ukraine.  Last I heard you weren't Ukrainian, so it isn't your ancient capital.  Spend some time in towns around Kyivs'ka Oblast' and you'll hear plenty of beautiful, standard Ukrainian.  When I was in Poltava last summer, also pure, standard Ukrainian was the language on the streets.  Even in Kyiv proper it's not uncommon to hear Ukrainian these days.  You really have to spend some time here before you can pontificate about what language people in Ukraine speak. 

[ialmisry]

Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Austrian Lemberg, where's that?

[LizaSymonenko]

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

[Vladik]

Austrian Lemberg, where's that?

That was a Polish city, there in Austrian Empire (check the ethnic map below). After the Empire's collapse it went to Poland. Stalin has annexed it, renamed in Lvov (Lviv) and added it into the Ukrainian SSR in 1937.
What the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services - who invented the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in 19th century to undermine the Russian rival - have to do with Ukrainian people is a good question, especially for the Ukrainians themself.

At the beggining it was a Rusian city there in the Kievan Rus'. Then it detached from Rus' (BTW before the collapse of the Kievan Rus'!) and became an independent State which soon became a Polish/Hungarian/Austrian colony. It also changed its faith and converted into Catholicism. Then it was strictly polonized. It was a city where there the Ukrainians (or Rusians by the time) considered as subhumans. Even at the 20th century there were numerous cafes and pubs with sighns like "no admittance for the Ukrainians".

[Vladik]

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

...This people love Ukraine and have no idea of its history at all. OMG...
But it makes no sense to talk to you, since you rely upon your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

[LizaSymonenko]

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

...This people love Ukraine and have no idea of its history at all. OMG...
But it makes no sense to talk to you, since you rely upon your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

[Vladik]

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Then give some arguments with facts and logic.
So far it was only emotions like these:

Blah, blah, blah....

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Actually these massages are a kind of Internet flaming and may be considered as trolling.

[Vladik]

such as morphology, phonology etc.

The dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one have the same morphology as the Ukrainian language does.
The dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one have almost the same phonology (see: Ukraianian phonology) as the Ukrainian language does.
The Ukrainian phonetcs sounds like an archaic form of the medieval Russian, sometimes it sounds like a poetic form of the modern Russian, sometimes it like an accent of the vilagers... but it doesn't have anything special in comparison with the dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one...

[ialmisry]

Austrian Lemberg, where's that?

That was a Polish city

It IS a Ukrainian city

there in Austrian Empire (check the ethnic map below)

there in the Polish Empire

isn't that Kiev-or should I say Kijów?-in there too, in lands of the Polish crown?

After the Empire's collapse it went to Poland.

After the Empire's collapse it went on to become the capital of the West Ukrainian People's Republic

Stalin has annexed it, renamed in Lvov (Lviv)

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.

and added it into the Ukrainian SSR in 1937.

1939.

What the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services - who invented the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in 19th century to undermine the Russian rival - have to do with Ukrainian people is a good question, especially for the Ukrainians themself.

Since the Poles were too busy polonizing the Ukrainians (and everyone else they could get their hands on), and the Austrians acknowledged the Ukrainians and Ruthenians only as far as they adhered to Brest (they had already begun to come back to Orthodoxy, neighboring Bukowina having a nearly all Orthodox population of Ukrainians, Ruthenians and Hutsuls), who invented the idea that the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services created Ukrainian nationalism in the 19th century to fuel conspiracy theories among their Russian rivals is a good question for the Russians themselves.

At the beggining it was a Rusian

Rus'.  It was Russian only briefly, during WWI.

city there in the Kievan Rus'. Then it detached from Rus' (BTW before the collapse of the Kievan Rus'!)

It was founded after Kievan Rus' collapsed, almost two decades after the Mongols sacked Kiev, and after the Metropolitan ceased to base himself in Kiev

and became an independent State which soon became a Polish/Hungarian/Austrian colony.

a century. Not exactly super soon.

It also changed its faith and converted into Catholicism.

No.  L'viv didn't sign off on Brest, and resisted it for over a century.  When Kaiser Joseph II came to liquidate the last Orthodox monastery in Galicia, the Orthodox L'viv petitioned for their Church, which serves again as the Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral of L'viv, after the illegal seizure of St. George

Then it was strictly polonized. It was a city where there the Ukrainians (or Rusians by the time) considered as subhumans. Even at the 20th century there were numerous cafes and pubs with sighns like "no admittance for the Ukrainians".

True, but the Ukrainians survived it.

[ialmisry]

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Then give some arguments with facts and logic.
So far it was only emotions like these:

Blah, blah, blah....

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Actually these massages are a kind of Internet flaming and may be considered as trolling.

Is it called Internet smoking, when you have no fire?

[Michał Kalina]

BTW the Polish word for "cat" is "kot" but I used a word for female cat because you had used them too (IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

[LizaSymonenko]

I don't know about the Russians, but, the Ukrainian definitely do!

[dzheremi]

Wow. This thread is stupider than I ever dared hope. It's almost beautiful in the perfection of its stupidity. Here, let me add to it...

I am all for dialect continua (Isa and I have discussed this before in other threads), but in a micro-level geographical view such that the Scandinavian languages may be said to in a sense form one such continuum such that speakers the next town over may understand one another, and the next town over, etc. (hence forming a sort of chain with unintelligible end points, which I am sure is evidenced by speech varieties on either side of the Ru/Ukr border). That is something different than saying, categorically, that they are all dialects of one supposedly primary macro-language. There is really very little to substantiate that idea, particular given the insights shown via Swadesh's glottochronology and the various challenges to it. The insight there, of course, is that languages develop from the proto-language (not from one another!) at different rates but core vocabulary remains at about 85% per millennium. This was challenged by people who came up with examples like Icelandic and Lithuanian which seem to show a slower rate of change, but if this is averaged out with languages on the other end (those with a faster rate of change), what you see is more or less a stereotypical bell curve (also, the 85% that is retained is basic vocab you wouldn't expect to be replaced anyway, like the stuff in Swadesh's famous list, so there is also kind of a "yeah, so what?" element here). What does this tell us? Unless you can peg its development to a relatively specific time period wherein speakers of what would become language Y separated from the main body of speakers of X (say, the Boers arriving in S. Africa), talking about X as a dialect of Y says more about you than it does about linguistic history. You cannot really look in isolation at vocabulary or syntax and say "aha! This proves that this is a dialect of that!", as though their shared parentage is of no consequence. I would think that a great many of the correspondences you see between Ukrainian and Russian are a result of this shared genetic affiliation, rather than evidence that Ukrainian somehow budded from Russian (doesn't history suggest otherwise? Wasn't Kiev the capital of Rus'?). Now, I am shamefully and happily ignorant about such things as relate to Russian and Ukrainian, but I do know that as a Russian student for about 6 years who also interacted with a fair share of Ukrainians in that time, they could understand me much easier than I could understand them (though we were able to communicate basic ideas quite well). A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.

You could do with some education in historical linguistics and typology, Vladik. I recommend Trask's introductory text (I just sold my copy, but I think it's just called "Trask's historical linguistics") or, if you are more advanced, Croft's "Typology" (one of the Cambridge series of textbooks in linguistics) or Comrie's "Linguistic Typology" (this was what got me interested in typology and genetic classification).

[ialmisry]

Just to confuse this more off topic:

A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.

Then we have the issue of Galician, which can't decide whether it is a Spanish dialect, a Portuguese dialect or its own language (actually, I lie: the speakers and others have decided.  They just don't agree on the decision made).

[dzheremi]

Just to confuse this more off topic:

A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.

Then we have the issue of Galician, which can't decide whether it is a Spanish dialect, a Portuguese dialect or its own language (actually, I lie: the speakers and others have decided.  They just don't agree on the decision made).

Of course (this is why I edited my post to include a bit on the speech varieties that I assume exist on either side of the Ru/Ukr border, with things like Galician in mind). As a near-native Spanish speaker (since age 4, naturalistically and via school), I could go either way on Galician. Let the Galicians fight it out. The Ukrainians already did, but as we can see by this thread, there is never a 100% agreed upon solution.

[Νεκτάριος]

BTW the Polish word for "cat" is "kot" but I used a word for female cat because you had used them too (IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

Generally the female form is the default rather than the male form of an animal in Russian.  Hence кошка, собака, коза, etc.  I'd only use кот or пёс if I were specifically referring to a tomcat or male dog.  I'd use козёл mainly for a person 

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

 

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  I ascribe it to a sort of gopnik, alpha-male culture that dominates in certain quarters of the russosphere.  They can only feel confident if they are putting down others.  It is unfortunate as this is in no way representative.  When I was on the transiberian traveling from China to Ukraine, I remember how so many people thought it was so neat that I was moving to Ukraine and had nothing but praise for the country.  I remember laughing off a friendly бабушка who predicted I'd marry a Ukrainian girl who'd feed me salo and I'd become fat.  To date I'm the only documented foreigner who has lost weight after marrying a Ukrainian, but the rest is true 

Some people whom I met in Russia during my travels have actually come out to visit me in the past two years.  Even though they knew everyone here speaks fluent Russian if the need arises, they learned some pleasantries in Ukrainian.  Those are the Russians that I know personally - awesome people with a profound culture but also deeply respectful of other cultures.  Unfortunately a few chauvinists get all the attention. 

[Vladik]

(IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

кот - male
кошка - female

[ialmisry]

(IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

кот - male
кошка - female

кiт - male
кiшка - female

[Vladik]

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.

[ialmisry]

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.

[Νεκτάριος]

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.

As I have pointed out, the idea that Ukrainian is a separate Eastern Slavic language than Russian is accepted by the overwhelming majority of academic linguists.  That is a basic fact.  It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.  There's hope though for Russia.  Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

[Vladik]

It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.

Trubetzkoy was an outstanding linguist of our days. jmbejdl said here about the phonology, so open open the Wikipedia's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology , so you can see there a pic of Prince Trubetzkoy and this text:

"An influential school of phonology in the interwar period was the Prague School. One of its leading members was Prince Nikolai Trubetzkoy, whose Grundzüge der Phonologie (Principles of Phonology),[3] published posthumously in 1939, is among the most important works in the field from this period. Directly influenced by Baudouin de Courtenay, Trubetzkoy is considered the founder of morphophonology, although this concept had also been recognized by de Courtenay. Trubetzkoy also developed the concept of the archiphoneme. Another important figure in the Prague School was Roman Jakobson, who was one of the most prominent linguists of the 20th century."

And you are stupidely slandering him.

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.

[Vladik]

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?

[dzheremi]

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.

This is true, so I ask you: Do you know of any modern linguists who hold to Trubetzkoy's view regarding Ukrainian? (preferably non-Soviet/non-Russian, to make sure that they are disinterested.)

I have read some very strange theories from linguists and people who call themselves linguists who apparently do not understand the basic principles of historical linguistics and genetic classification: That just about anything under the sun is genetically related to Basque (my favorites are Georgian and Japanese), that Indo-European and Semitic and various others form a definable super-family (the infamous "Nostratic hypothesis" which is generally rejected by linguists outside of a tiny minority of Russians), that Coptic is essentially Arabic (this is why you don't get a degree in any kind of science from Al Azhar), etc. You must be careful not endorse such a hypothesis yourself due to a confirmation bias based on politics or nationalistic feelings rather than on solid linguistic principles.

[Νεκτάριος]

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?

   You've never been to Kyiv or heard people speak Ukrainian in Central Ukraine, I take it?  If by literary language you mean that of Ukrainian literature then I'd think you'd be interested in the language of Shevchenko or Kotliarevsky.  Modern Standard Ukrainian comes from the dialects of Poltava, Kharkiv and Kyiv.  The dialects of Halychyna are not the basis of the standard language.  So your theory doesn't really work.     

[Vladik]

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th.  

Here is the original text

Please compare it with Russian, Ukrainian or Belarusian language/dialect and you'll see that the modern Russian language sounds amasingly similar with this old Kievan dialect (but polonised Ukrainian or Belarusian don't).

[Michał Kalina]

Ukrainian nationalism started much earlier:

[Vladik]

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th [century].  

1. Now, I'm going to cite the Ukrainian Wikipedia (I never learnt Ukrainian but I understand it perfectly, you all know why )

"Слово о полку Ігоревім ... — героїчна поема кінця XII ст, найвідоміша пам'ятка давньоукраїнської літератури ... Мова, якою написано «Слова о полку Ігоревім», це тогочасна літературна мова русинів, подібна до мови літописів, але з помітно більшими впливами народної. Більшість дослідників припускають, що автор «Слово…» був або киянин або чернігівець, ін. (Орлов, Юґов) доводять, що він мусив бути галичанином («карпаторус»)" (see: Слово о полку Ігоревім)

There is said that The Tale of Igor's Campaign ( Слово о полку Игореве) is an old Ukrainian book, written by a Ukrainian from either Kiev or maybe from Chernigiv or Galichina (Galicia/Galichina is the land where is modern Lemberg/Lviv located).  
Thus, according to the Ukrainians it is a Ukrainian book, written in old Ukrainian language (the Russians consider it as an old Russian book).

---

2. Now, let's look into this book.

My favourite fragment:

Почнемъ же, братiе, повѣсть сiю отъ стараго Владимера до нынѣшняго Игоря; иже истягну умь крѣпостiю своею, и поостри сердца своего мужествомъ, наплънився ратнаго духа, наведе своя храбрыя плъкы на землю Половѣцькую за землю Руськую.

The same in modern cyrilic letters:

Почнем же, братие, повесть сию от старого Владимера до нынешняго Игоря; иже истягну ум крепостию своею, и поостри сердца своего мужеством, напленився ратнага духа, наведе своя храбрыя плекы на землю Половецкую за землю Руськую.

The same in English transliteration:

Pochnem zhe, bratie, povestʹ siyu ot starogo Vladimera do nyneshnyago Igorya; izhe istyagnu um krepostiyu svoyeyu, i poostri serdtsa svoego muzhestvom, naplenivsya ratnaga dukha, navede svoya khrabryya pleky na zemlyu Polovetskuyu za zemlyu Rusʹkuyu

---

3. It's obvious that this book has morphology, phonetics, phonology and lexicon extremely close to the modern Russian language.

Compare how it is called in Old Kievan dialect:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Russian:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Ukrainian:

"Слово о полку Ігоревім" (Slovo o polku Igorevim)

And how it is called in moderm Belarusian:

"Слова пра паход Ігараў" (Slova pra pakhod Igarau)

[Vladik]

Note, that St Vladimir the Great is called there as "Vladimer" (Владимер) but not like "Volodimir" as they say in modern Ukraine (campare it with modern Russian "Vladimir").

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?  

[Sauron]

I prefer arguments about whether Hindi and Urdu are different languages.

[ialmisry]

It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.

Trubetzkoy was an outstanding linguist of our days. jmbejdl said here about the phonology, so open open the Wikipedia's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology , so you can see there a pic of Prince Trubetzkoy and this text:

"An influential school of phonology in the interwar period was the Prague School. One of its leading members was Prince Nikolai Trubetzkoy, whose Grundzüge der Phonologie (Principles of Phonology),[3] published posthumously in 1939, is among the most important works in the field from this period. Directly influenced by Baudouin de Courtenay, Trubetzkoy is considered the founder of morphophonology, although this concept had also been recognized by de Courtenay. Trubetzkoy also developed the concept of the archiphoneme. Another important figure in the Prague School was Roman Jakobson, who was one of the most prominent linguists of the 20th century."

And you are stupidely slandering him.

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.

and you do.

You have invoked Trubetzkoy.  You haven't cited nor quoted him.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Foreign Language Forums > Foreign Languages Forum > Slavic Languages > Topic: Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect