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Author Topic: Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect  (Read 11671 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2012, 11:01:09 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1
And the Romonovs were really the Holstein-Gottorps.  Your point?

And who was "Pan Gruszewsky," with the obvious Polish spelling and title?

This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.

The Brotherhood of SS. Cyril and Methodius consolidated that project 70 years before WWI.

The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?
your ravings? nothing.
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« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?

 Cheesy  You've never been to Kyiv or heard people speak Ukrainian in Central Ukraine, I take it?  If by literary language you mean that of Ukrainian literature then I'd think you'd be interested in the language of Shevchenko or Kotliarevsky.  Modern Standard Ukrainian comes from the dialects of Poltava, Kharkiv and Kyiv.  The dialects of Halychyna are not the basis of the standard language.  So your theory doesn't really work.     
Oleksej P. Pavlovskij presented to the Russian Academy in 1805 the first grammar (published in 1818) of this Modern Standard Ukrainian you describe.  Galician Ukrainian didn't get such a treatment until decades later.

but that doesn't fit Vladik's rants.
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« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2012, 11:26:55 AM »

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th [century].  

1. Now, I'm going to cite the Ukrainian Wikipedia (I never learnt Ukrainian but I understand it perfectly, you all know why Cheesy )

"Слово о полку Ігоревім ... — героїчна поема кінця XII ст, найвідоміша пам'ятка давньоукраїнської літератури ... Мова, якою написано «Слова о полку Ігоревім», це тогочасна літературна мова русинів, подібна до мови літописів, але з помітно більшими впливами народної. Більшість дослідників припускають, що автор «Слово…» був або киянин або чернігівець, ін. (Орлов, Юґов) доводять, що він мусив бути галичанином («карпаторус»)" (see: Слово о полку Ігоревім)

There is said that The Tale of Igor's Campaign ( Слово о полку Игореве) is an old Ukrainian book, written by a Ukrainian from either Kiev or maybe from Chernigiv or Galichina (Galicia/Galichina is the land where is modern Lemberg/Lviv located).  
Thus, according to the Ukrainians it is a Ukrainian book, written in old Ukrainian language (the Russians consider it as an old Russian book).

---

2. Now, let's look into this book.

My favourite fragment:

Почнемъ же, братiе, повѣсть сiю отъ стараго Владимера до нынѣшняго Игоря; иже истягну умь крѣпостiю своею, и поостри сердца своего мужествомъ, наплънився ратнаго духа, наведе своя храбрыя плъкы на землю Половѣцькую за землю Руськую.

The same in modern cyrilic letters:

Почнем же, братие, повесть сию от старого Владимера до нынешняго Игоря; иже истягну ум крепостию своею, и поостри сердца своего мужеством, напленився ратнага духа, наведе своя храбрыя плекы на землю Половецкую за землю Руськую.

The same in English transliteration:

Pochnem zhe, bratie, povestʹ siyu ot starogo Vladimera do nyneshnyago Igorya; izhe istyagnu um krepostiyu svoyeyu, i poostri serdtsa svoego muzhestvom, naplenivsya ratnaga dukha, navede svoya khrabryya pleky na zemlyu Polovetskuyu za zemlyu Rusʹkuyu

---

3. It's obvious that this book has morphology, phonetics, phonology and lexicon extremely close to the modern Russian language.

Compare how it is called in Old Kievan dialect:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Russian:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Ukrainian:

"Слово о полку Ігоревім" (Slovo o polku Igorevim)

And how it is called in moderm Belarusian:

"Слова пра паход Ігараў" (Slova pra pakhod Igarau)


and modern Polish:

"Słowo o wyprawie Igora" (Slovo o vyprav'e Igora)
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« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »

It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax!

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ialmisry
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« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2012, 11:34:12 AM »

No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.

Printed in Lemberg.
The Ukrainian Academy is Kiev.  And you can't print anything in Lemberg.

Quote
and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?

I always had a dim suspicion that American language is another one than Brittish. Many thanks to your logic for opening my eyes (sarcasm).
Noah Webster wanted to make it another language.  He didn't succeed.  American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian.  At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:37:54 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2012, 01:24:23 PM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.
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« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2012, 11:45:49 PM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.

1. There is said "за землю Руськую" (za zemlyu Rus'kuyu). In modern Russian it's: "za zemlyu Ruskuyu" (for the Russian land). All the same.
2. There is no a Rutheinia word. And FYI it does mean "Russia" in Latin language.
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« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2012, 12:12:30 AM »

American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian. 

Ukrainian language is closer to Russian, than London's cockney to Qeen's English.

Quote
At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2012, 12:29:04 AM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.

1. There is said "за землю Руськую" (za zemlyu Rus'kuyu). In modern Russian it's: "za zemlyu Ruskuyu" (for the Russian land). All the same.
Only in your head.
2. There is no a Rutheinia word. And FYI it does mean "Russia" in Latin language.
No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."
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« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2012, 12:38:30 AM »

American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian.  

Ukrainian language is closer to Russian, than London's cockney to Qeen's English.
Proof? particularly as the Queen's English is an artificial construct, and Cockney served as its substratum, and Cockney is reasserting itself.

Quote
At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.
Proof? particularly as, as I pointed out above, the first Modern Ukrainian Grammar was written for the Russian Academy, based on the speech of the Ukrainian cities and town in the Russian Empire.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 12:38:48 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2012, 01:17:43 AM »

No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English
And Rusia is a sinonimous of Ruthenia there is in Latin.

2. Россия (Russia) is a Greek word for Rus' , adopted by Peter the great as the oficial name of Moscow Rus'.
Thus, even  Rus' and Russia are sinonimous.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 01:21:39 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2012, 01:25:36 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.
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« Reply #102 on: May 23, 2012, 01:52:51 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.

The issue isn't linguistic, it is about not being anachronistic.  Modern ethnic identifiers have meant completely different things through the course of history. 
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« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2012, 05:28:39 AM »

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English

And it translates "Białystok" as "New York". What is proven by that?
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« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2012, 06:45:23 AM »

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

A surname with -sky always sounds Polish. "Zh" (Polish "Rz") is also rather typical for Polish surnames.  
The Poles adore such words with "rz", "psz", "ski" ("Rzeczpospolita", "Przewalsky" etc).

"The Zhelekhivka became official in Galicia in 1893 [e.i. in Austrian Empire], and was adopted by many eastern Ukrainian publications after the Revolution. The Ukrainian National Republic adopted official Ukrainian orthographies in 1918 and 1919 [it was created during the German occupation], and Ukrainian publication increased, and then flourished under Skoropadsky's Hetmanate. Under the Bolshevik government of Ukraine, Ukrainian orthographies were confirmed in 1920 and 1921".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_alphabet

This alphabet comes from Catholic Lemberg (the capital of Galicia),created under the Austrian occupation with the help of Austrian government (no doubt it was a kind of a sabotage), adopted under the German occupation and forcely spread under the Bolsheviks.
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« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2012, 07:02:14 AM »

And it translates "Białystok" as "New York". What is proven by that?

No, Google translates it as Bialystok
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« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2012, 07:09:36 AM »

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« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2012, 07:15:55 AM »



Strangely... But I use google.com (American ome?) since it is the most developed version. And Byalostok is Byalostok there.
---

They say "Ruthenia" and "Russia" are sinonimous according to Hofmann's "Lexicon Universale"
See: http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Ruthenia
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« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2012, 07:19:51 AM »

There are 3 expressions for Ruthenia in Latin:

"Ruthenia Magna" (Russia or "Great Rus' "), "Ruthenia Minor" (Ukraine or "Little Rus' ") and "Ruthenia Alba" (Belarus or "White Rus' ").
And no wonder why, since they are 3 parts of the one country, the one people and the one language.

And our capital is Kiev and it will always be. As they say in Russia: "Kiev is the mother of the Russian cities" (Киев - мать городов русских).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:24:46 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2012, 08:03:52 AM »

There are 3 expressions for Ruthenia in Latin:

"Ruthenia Magna" (Russia or "Great Rus' "), "Ruthenia Minor" (Ukraine or "Little Rus' ") and "Ruthenia Alba" (Belarus or "White Rus' ").
And no wonder why, since they are 3 parts of the one country, the one people and the one language.
which must be Ossetic, as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."


And our capital is Kiev and it will always be. As they say in Russia: "Kiev is the mother of the Russian cities" (Киев - мать городов русских).
since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:04:12 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2012, 08:25:17 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.
Sorry, part of my family comes near (Växjö) the original Rus'

and we speak Swedish, Mr. I-can't-recognize-the-facts.  We've dealt with this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43425.msg719868.html#msg719868
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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2012, 08:40:36 AM »

No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English
And Rusia is a sinonimous of Ruthenia there is in Latin.

2. Россия (Russia) is a Greek word for Rus' , adopted by Peter the great as the oficial name of Moscow Rus'.
Thus, even  Rus' and Russia are sinonimous.
Peter the so called great is dead, his dynasty deposed and his state abolished.  His fiat doesn't trump facts.

Btw, we dealt with this before:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23646.msg361255.html#msg361255

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.
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« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2012, 08:59:32 AM »

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

A surname with -sky always sounds Polish. "Zh" (Polish "Rz") is also rather typical for Polish surnames.  
The Poles adore such words with "rz", "psz", "ski" ("Rzeczpospolita", "Przewalsky" etc).

"The Zhelekhivka became official in Galicia in 1893 [e.i. in Austrian Empire], and was adopted by many eastern Ukrainian publications after the Revolution. The Ukrainian National Republic adopted official Ukrainian orthographies in 1918 and 1919 [it was created during the German occupation], and Ukrainian publication increased, and then flourished under Skoropadsky's Hetmanate. Under the Bolshevik government of Ukraine, Ukrainian orthographies were confirmed in 1920 and 1921".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_alphabet

This alphabet comes from Catholic Lemberg (the capital of Galicia),created under the Austrian occupation with the help of Austrian government (no doubt it was a kind of a sabotage), adopted under the German occupation and forcely spread under the Bolsheviks.
since you like wikipedia:
Quote
Letter Є/є was derived from one of variant forms of Cyrillic Ye (Е е), known as "long E" or "anchor E". Є-shaped letter can be found in late uncial (ustav) and semi-uncial (poluustav) Cyrillic manuscripts, especially ones of Ukrainian origin. Typically it corresponds to the letter Iotated E (Ѥ ѥ) of older monuments. Certain old primers and grammar books of Church Slavonic language had listed Є/є as a letter distinct from Е/е and placed it near the end of the alphabet (the exact alphabet position varies). Among modern-style Cyrillic scripts (known as "civil script" or "Petrine script"), Є/є was first used in Serbian books (end of the 18th century and first half of the 19th century); sometimes, Serbian printers might be using Э/э instead of Є/є due to font availability. For the modern Ukrainian language, Є/є is used since 1837 (orthography of almanach "Русалка Днѣстровая")....

Since mid-17th c., the Church Slavonic orthography has the following main rules related to the usage of shapes Є and Е:..

publishers from Kiev also use Є in the genitive case of three pronouns (менє, тебє, себє), and Е in the accusative case (мене, тебе, себе);...

Notice 2. Old Believers print their books using an older variant of New Church Slavonic language. Its orthography combines the fully formal system described above with the older tradition to use Є phonetically (after vowels, to represent iotated /je/).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#History
Quote
The letter ‹ґ› was first introduced into the Slavic alphabet in 1619 by Meletius Smotrytsky in his "Slavic Grammar" (Грамматіки славєнскиѧ правилноє Сѵнтаґма).[4] Later, serving an identical purpose, it was saved in the new orthography of the Ukrainian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge_with_upturn#History

The universal orthography of Ukrainian is the Kharkiv, named after the city where it was adopted, way over on the other side of the country from L'viv.
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« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2012, 09:18:27 AM »

since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.

East and South Ukrainians, and even my familiar Kievans.
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« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2012, 09:22:07 AM »

since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.

East and South Ukrainians, and even my familiar Kievans.
btw, the first Russian primer was published in L'viv.  So I guess Russian was a Polish plot.
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« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2012, 09:26:15 AM »

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.

Actually his name was Daniel of Galicia (Danila Galitsky)

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.

You forgot to say, that Pope gave Daniel "the Crown of Russia" and the title of a King, because Daniel had converted into Catholicism and betrayed the Orthodox faith.
All your "the Kingdom of Russia" was never accepted by the Orthodox population.

BTW here is Daniel, depicted on the Millennium of Russia monument
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« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2012, 09:50:48 AM »

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.

Actually his name was Daniel of Galicia (Danila Galitsky)
His title was King of Rus'

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.

You forgot to say, that Pope gave Daniel "the Crown of Russia" and the title of a King, because Daniel had converted into Catholicism and betrayed the Orthodox faith.
No.  The Vatican likes to so claim, but King Danylo took the crown but never submitted.
All your "the Kingdom of Russia" was never accepted by the Orthodox population.
They accepted his Metropolitan Cyril of Kiev and All Rus' as their primate.
BTW here is Daniel, depicted on the Millennium of Russia monument

so I guess his kingdom was accepted by the Orthodox population after all. Grin
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« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.
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« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?
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« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv.

There were only five capitals of Rus', which ruled the whole her territory, but not some small parts. Here you are:

1. Ladoga (modern Russia)
2. Novgorod (modern Russia)
3. Kiev (modern Ukraine)
4. Moscow (modern Russia)
5. St Petersburg (modern Russia)

as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."

A typical and stupid medieval propaganda.
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« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2012, 11:36:54 AM »

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« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2012, 11:49:53 AM »

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv.

There were only five capitals of Rus', which ruled the whole her territory, but not some small parts. Here you are:

1. Ladoga (modern Russia)
never ruled Kiev, nor Galicia, nor Moscow
2. Novgorod (modern Russia)
3. Kiev (modern Ukraine)
4. Moscow (modern Russia)
5. St Petersburg (modern Russia)
5 never ruled Galicia, and 4 never did until 1940.

as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."
A typical and stupid medieval propaganda.
like Ruthenia?
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« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2012, 12:13:37 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.
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« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2012, 12:20:56 PM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

Transleteration into English:


Bylina – bylina - bylyna
zamyshlenie- zamyshlenia- zadum
seryi- seryi- siryi
trudnyi- trudnyi- vazhkiy
vremya- vremya- chas (from Polish czas)
mysl’ – mysl’- doumka
volk- volk- vovk
oblako- oblako- khmara (from Polish chmura)
rech- rech- mova (from Polish mowa)
pervyi - pervyi- pershyi (from Polish pierwszy)
vremena – vremena – chasy (from Polish czasie)
togda – togda - todee
sokol – sokol - sokyl
lebed’ – lebed’- lebyd’
старый - старый - старий (oops!)
Khrabryi – khrabryi - khorobyi
zarezati – zarezat’ – zarizati
krasnyi – krasnyi – chervonyi (from Polish czerwony as well)
zhivoy – zhivoy - zhivyi
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« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2012, 12:42:04 PM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2012, 01:10:19 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.

Because just comparing words without any knowledge of their general frequency is useless.  Words like "old," "red," and "wolf" are more useful in suggesting etymological connections that "slaughter," "brave," and "thought."
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« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2012, 03:42:30 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.

Because just comparing words without any knowledge of their general frequency is useless.  Words like "old," "red," and "wolf" are more useful in suggesting etymological connections that "slaughter," "brave," and "thought."

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2012, 03:50:11 PM »

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).

Swadesh, after Morris Swadesh. It would be odd to have a Swedish list in Slavic... Smiley
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« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2012, 03:55:16 PM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

And there are other instances as well. 

Floor, second, other, all of the months (as Michal already mentioned), the retention of older case endings where Ukrainian has older forms than Russian. 
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« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2012, 04:13:33 PM »

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).

Swadesh, after Morris Swadesh. It would be odd to have a Swedish list in Slavic... Smiley
well, that is where the Rus' came from. Tongue
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« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2012, 04:55:15 PM »

Hahaha. Yes, yes, fine. Smiley
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« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2012, 12:39:44 AM »

Here is the list of Proto-Slavic naming for months:

berzьnь — март
květьnь — апрель
travьnь — май
čьrvьnь — июнь
lipьnь — июль
sьrpьnь — август
versьnь — сентябрь
rujьnь — октябрь
listopadъ — ноябрь
grudьnь — декабрь
prosinьcь — январь
sěčьnь — февраль





A very cheap machination. I've showed you an ancient Kievan manuscript and prooved that Russian language is a more direct successor of Old Kievan dialect than modern Ukrainian language.  
On the other hand you're showing me a stupid demotevator about 12 months.
 
1. It's actually really stupid since Peter the Great decided to substitute all Slavic months in Russia by Latin words.
2. Ukrainian and Belarusian months are similar only in 5 cases.
3. Some of Ukrainian and Belarusian months are substituted by Polish words again (Ukrainian грудень - comes from Polish grudzień)
4. Here is a list of Russian months up to Peter the Great:

Spring

белояр
цветень
травень

Summer

кресень
червень
серпень

Autumn

велесень
овсень
листопад

Winter

просинец
лютень

Proof
 
6. Serbians and Slovakians lost the names of their months at all.

7. All the Slavs had almost the same names of months http://www.lingvisto.org/artikoloj/monatoj.html
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« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2012, 12:49:11 AM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

Link?
It doesn't matter that mova maybe comes from Proto-Slavic mleva , the point is that they never used it as a word for "language" there in Kievan Rus' (or you maybe can cite here some manuscripts? Cheesy).

Not but what the word "twaddle" or "speech" (mova) had substituted the previous Old Kievan word "language" (rech).
This is what I call a distortion of the language.

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« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2012, 01:19:31 AM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

Link?
try this
http://books.google.com/books?id=LJFiAAAAMAAJ&dq=etymological+dictionary+of+slavic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1hK_T4vBM6ae6QHxsbmhCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA

It doesn't matter that mova maybe comes from Proto-Slavic mleva , the point is that they never used it as a word for "language" there in Kievan Rus' (or you maybe can cite here some manuscripts? Cheesy).

Not but what the word "twaddle" or "speech" (mova) had substituted the previous Old Kievan word "language" (rech).
This is what I call a distortion of the language.
because your thinking is distorted.

Where's your dictionary of "Old Kievan words", as the word for language ęzykъ was used.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:20:17 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2012, 02:17:43 AM »

because your thinking is distorted.

Where's your dictionary of "Old Kievan words", as the word for language ęzykъ was used.

At least we also say: "Русская речь" (Russian language). Compare it with old Kievan: "речь първыхъ временъ" (rech pervykh vremen - the language of first times) from the manuscript.
It's the same like modern Russian: "речь первых времен"  (rech pervykh vremen).

And compare it with the Ukrainian eqvivalent: "mova pervshykh chasiv
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