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Author Topic: Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect  (Read 9463 times) Average Rating: 0
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Vladik
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« on: May 18, 2012, 09:03:40 AM »

This discussion has started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44668.msg748575.html#msg748575

Russian is a dialect of the Ukrainian.

No, and I'll tell you why:

Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.

The fact is that Russian language is the direct succesor of Old Slavonic language, there is among other Slavic languages.

Trubetzkoy:
"Будучи модернизированной и обрусевшей формой церковнославянского языка, русский литературный язык является единственным прямым преемником общеславянской литературно-языковой традиции, ведущей свое начало от святых первоучителей славянских, т.е. от конца эпохи праславянского единства."
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:08:33 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 09:37:08 AM »

<позіхає>
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 10:08:44 AM »

Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 10:32:35 AM »

This discussion has started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44668.msg748575.html#msg748575

Russian is a dialect of the Ukrainian.

No, and I'll tell you why:

Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.

The fact is that Russian language is the direct succesor of Old Slavonic language, there is among other Slavic languages.

Trubetzkoy:
"Будучи модернизированной и обрусевшей формой церковнославянского языка, русский литературный язык является единственным прямым преемником общеславянской литературно-языковой традиции, ведущей свое начало от святых первоучителей славянских, т.е. от конца эпохи праславянского единства."
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila, abandoning the Russian recension, which is preserved among the Old Ritualists.  This Kievan recension is what Lomonosov recognized as the "high Russian style" out of which came the Modern Standard Literary Russian.

Since New Church Slavonic is a recension of Old Church Slavonic is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language, and Russian is an East Slavic language, the idea of Russian coming directly from Church Slavonic does not comport with the facts.

Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:37:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 10:53:48 AM »

Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.

According to Trubetzkoy, it is.

"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе".
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 10:56:13 AM »

Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.

According to Trubetzkoy, it is.

"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе".
Trubetzkoy is wrong, if that was his view.  Btw, instead of citing something ABOUT Trubetzkoy, why don't you try quoting him, as I linked in the other thread?

If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:02:52 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 10:59:41 AM »

Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?

Why I've got to "split" all offtopic by my own?

BTW, there was in the Orthodox Russian Empire, the Ukrainian considered as a dialect of the Russian, and the only Communists (among whom there was a lot of Ukrainian nationalists) changed this situation.
Thus, those who consider Ukrainian langauge as a seperate one from the Russian language are Communists. Grin
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 11:05:22 AM »

If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.

Don't you understand the quotation in Russian? He said, that Ukrainian literary language had been deliberately and artificially created as a West Slavic, but informal Ukrainian speech had remained a dialect of the Russian language.

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 11:08:11 AM »


Blah, blah, blah....
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 11:09:28 AM »

Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?

Why I've got to "split" all offtopic by my own?

BTW, there was in the Orthodox Russian Empire, the Ukrainian considered as a dialect of the Russian, and the only Communists (among whom there was a lot of Ukrainian nationalists) changed this situation.
Thus, those who consider Ukrainian langauge as a seperate one from the Russian language are Communists. Grin
Assertions from your own imaginary world doesn't affect the facts in the real world here.

Yeah, that communist cell, Brotherhood of Saints Cyril and Methodius, founded even before the Communist Manifesto.  You should be happen about the Ukrainians then, and embrace Ukrainian as a manifestation of the Soviet spirit. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 11:12:16 AM »


Blah, blah, blah....
Don't you mean бла бла бла?
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 11:18:18 AM »


Blah, blah, blah....
Don't you mean бла бла бла?

 Grin
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »

Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila

Nope, that was the mixing of Kievan and Moscovite (shared by the Old Ritualists) traditions by Nikon.
Then this mixing gave birth to the Russian language.

Quote
is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language

Doesn't matter. The Church Slavonic is the Общеславянская литературно-языковая традиция (The literary and linguistic tradition, common for all Slavs). It is the root of the Slavic literacy.
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2012, 11:33:39 AM »

If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.

Don't you understand the quotation in Russian?
Don't you understand what a quotation is, in Russian or English?

He said
no, you quote someone saying he said.  Or did Trubetzkoy, with exceeding modesty, call himself "the outstanding linquist"?
that Ukrainian literary language had been deliberately and artificially created as a West Slavic, but informal Ukrainian speech had remained a dialect of the Russian language.
LOL.  So just by being able to speak and write Ukrainian, every Ukrainian is ipso facto bilingual.

The Pomeranian Germans use the German literary language which has been deliberately and artifically created as a High German language, by those whose informal speech, e.g. by Siebs, ironically but naturally came from a Low German area.  That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
Don't have to.  I know the facts.  The artificial Russian literary language was derived from the recension of Church Slavonic the Ukrainians created, a fact well know to history.

The Ukrainian Impact on Russian Culture, 1750-1850
 By David Saunders
http://books.google.com/books?id=hz3T6ucg58EC&pg=PA53&dq=Peter+Russian+Church+Ukrainian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BGy2T9WyKoGbgwfe8IiiCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Peter%20Russian%20Church%20Ukrainian&f=false
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2012, 11:40:41 AM »

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.

For instance:

Quote
..."Иван Семенович Левицкий. Широкая публика знала его под псевдонимом Нечуй-Левицкий. Известный украинский писатель в независимой Украине по праву должен был пользоваться почетом и уважением. Между тем умер Нечуй-Левицкий в полной нищете в одной из киевских богаделен.

Как же так получилось? У власти стояли люди, называвшие себя патриотами. Их прямой обязанностью было позаботиться о человеке, чьи произведения являлись украшением украинской литературы. Вместо этого писатель оказался лишен всех средств к существованию. А ведь Михаил Грушевский был лично обязан Ивану Семеновичу. В свое время именно Нечуй-Левицкий взял под свое покровительство тогда еще никому не известного гимназиста, стал его наставником в литературных занятиях, рекомендовал к печати первые произведения будущего главы украинского государства. И теперь такая неблагодарность. Почему?

Биографы писателя, как правило, обходят этот вопрос. Говорят лишь, что время тогда было тяжелое, что печальная судьба — умереть в нищете — характерна для многих выдающихся людей… Общие, ничего не объясняющие фразы. Но объяснение все-таки есть.

Язык как яблоко раздора

Ключ к разгадке — ссора между Грушевским и Нечуем-Левицким. Произошла она из-за расхождений по вопросу, который, казалось бы, споров у них вызывать не должен. По вопросу об украинском языке.

Как известно, вплоть до революции 1917 года во всех сферах общественной жизни Украины (кроме западной ее части, входившей в состав Австро-Венгрии) господствовал русский язык. Для культурных украинцев он был родным. Люди же малообразованные говорили на местных просторечиях, лексикон которых ограничивался минимумом, необходимым в сельском быту. Если возникала потребность затронуть в разговоре тему, выходившую за рамки обыденности, простолюдины черпали недостающие слова из языка образованного общества, то есть из русского.

Все это не нравилось деятелям украинского движения (украинофилам). Они (в том числе Нечуй-Левицкий и Грушевский) считали необходимым вырабатывать, в противовес русскому, самостоятельный украинский язык. Однако при этом Иван Семенович был уверен, что вырабатывать язык следует на народной основе, опираясь на сельские говоры Центральной и Восточной Украины. А вот его бывший ученик стоял на иной позиции. Перебравшись в 1894 году на жительство в австрийскую Галицию, Михаил Грушевский завязал тесные контакты с тамошними украинофилами. У последних был свой взгляд на языковой вопрос. По их мнению, говоры российской Украины являлись сильно русифицированными, а потому недостойными стать основой украинского литературного языка. При издании в Галиции сочинений украинских писателей из России (Коцюбинского, Кулиша, Нечуя-Левицкого) народные слова беспощадно выбрасывались, если такие же (или похожие) слова употреблялись в русской речи. Выброшенное заменялось заимствованиями из польского, немецкого, других языков, а то и просто выдуманными словами. Таким образом, галицкие украинофилы создавали "самостоятельный украинский язык". В это языкотворчество включился и Грушевский.

Поначалу ничто не предвещало разрыва с Нечуем-Левицким. Иван Семенович тоже считал нужным "бороться с русификацией", даже благодарил Грушевского за "исправление ошибок" в своих произведениях. Однако "исправлений" становилось все больше. Получалась уже не чистка от "русизмов", а подмена всего языка. Писатель обратился к галичанам с просьбой умерить пыл. Но от него отмахнулись.

Неизвестно, чем бы закончилась эта история, если бы не перемены в России. В 1905 году был отменен запрет на издание украиноязычной прессы. "Национально сознательные" галичане сочли, что настал момент для распространения своего языка на всю Украину. С этой целью стали открываться газеты, журналы, книгоиздательства. "Языковой поход" на восток возглавил Грушевский. Тут и выяснилось, что создавать язык на бумаге легче, чем навязывать его людям. Такая "рідна мова" с огромным количеством польских, немецких и выдуманных слов еще могла кое-как существовать в Галиции, где украинцы жили бок о бок с поляками и немцами. В российской Украине галицкое "творение" восприняли как абракадабру. Печатавшиеся на ней книги и прессу местные жители просто не могли читать. "В начале 1906 года почти в каждом большом городе Украины начали выходить под разными названиями газеты на украинском языке, — вспоминал один из наиболее деятельных украинофилов Юрий Сирый (Тищенко). — К сожалению, большинство тех попыток и предприятий заканчивались полным разочарованием издателей, были ли то отдельные лица или коллективы, и издание, увидев свет, уже через несколько номеров, а то и после первого, кануло в Лету"...

http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2012, 11:42:08 AM »


Blah, blah, blah....
Don't you mean бла бла бла?

ROFLMAO!
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 11:42:46 AM »

This argument reminds me of the communists attempting to convince the Bessarabians that they spoke a Slav language called Moldovan rather than the Latin Romanian that they clearly did (and do) speak after the USSR annexed the region. It's nothing more than politically motivated pseudo-linguistics. There is no distinct point at which a dialect of one language becomes a separate language and every language starts out as a dialect of another. Dialects within one language can diverge more from each other than some languages do. Even if Ukrainian began life as a dialect of Russian (not an unreasonable suggestion to make - although, even without knowing the specifics, Russian linguistic development not being something I've specifically studied, I'd wager that it's more likely modern Russian and modern Ukrainian share an ancestor that is not identical to either) that would in no way preclude it from now being a separate language.

James
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 11:49:46 AM »

Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila

Nope, that was the mixing of Kievan and Moscovite (shared by the Old Ritualists) traditions by Nikon.
Then this mixing gave birth to the Russian language.
Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans, and Russian wasn't born until Puskhin delivered it, over a century after the Ukrainians directed the "высо́кий стиль "high style."

is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language

Doesn't matter. The Church Slavonic is the Общеславянская литературно-языковая традиция (The literary and linguistic tradition, common for all Slavs). It is the root of the Slavic literacy.
So Russian is just a dialect of Macedonian.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 11:52:00 AM »

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.

http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html

So, in short there is said that Hrushevskyi had substituted the majority of Russian words for Polish and German ones there was in Ukrainian literary language, being in Lemberg. That's why he fell out with his teacher Nechuy-Levytsky (a Ukrainian nationalist who wanted making the substitution for Ukrainian words). That's why the modern Ukrainian literary language is so non-Ukrainian.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 11:58:02 AM »

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.

For instance:
unless it is Trubetzkoy's (whom I do not see in your exerpt, have you abandoned him as an authority?) blog, don't bother us with it.
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 11:59:54 AM »

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.

http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html

So, in short there is said that Hrushevskyi had substituted the majority of Russian words for Polish and German ones there was in Ukrainian literary language, being in Lemberg. That's why he fell out with his teacher Nechuy-Levytsky (a Ukrainian nationalist who wanted making the substitution for Ukrainian words). That's why the modern Ukrainian literary language is so non-Ukrainian.
I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.

It's L'viv, btw.
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 12:32:31 PM »

I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.


Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 12:40:52 PM »

Trubetskoy is great.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 12:57:02 PM »

I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.


Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 
70%, huh?  You sure you haven't lost count, or just don't know Ukrainian nor Polish?

Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.

Nobody?  You mean nobody Russian?  Even that is far fetched, as, in the parent thread show, we have experiences of Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians speaking to each other in their own language.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2012, 01:12:26 PM »

I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.


Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 

btw
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Slavic_languages
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2012, 12:25:22 AM »

Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.

"С точки зрения лексики ближайшим к украинскому является белорусский язык (84 % общей лексики), затем польский (70 % общей лексики), словацкий (68 % общей лексики) и русский язык (62 % общей лексики)"
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2012, 12:33:17 AM »

Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans

Right, but the creation of the secular Russian started with the creation of the new alphabet in 1708. Since then the Russian had been seperated from Church Slavonic.
The Kievans took Church and Church Slavonic in 1750.

Quote
So Russian is just a dialect of Macedonian.

No, because the Russian and Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian don't have the same syntax.
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2012, 12:39:51 AM »

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2012, 12:53:20 AM »

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.

Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2012, 01:07:50 AM »

Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.

"С точки зрения лексики ближайшим к украинскому является белорусский язык (84 % общей лексики), затем польский (70 % общей лексики), словацкий (68 % общей лексики) и русский язык (62 % общей лексики)"
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA
I don't see any source there.  I don't know if wikipedia counted all the words, or any words.

I linked the Swadesh lists. You can count them yourself
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Slavic_languages
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 01:14:03 AM »

Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans

Right, but the creation of the secular Russian started with the creation of the new alphabet in 1708. Since then the Russian had been seperated from Church Slavonic.
The Kievans took Church and Church Slavonic in 1750.
The Kievan took over the Church in 1686.  The implementation of the Spiritual Regulations was dominated by Ukrainians (1700-1750 the Ukrainian bishops outnumbered the Russian almost 2 to 1).

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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 01:30:44 AM »

So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.

Honestly, they are dialects of German; Politically, they ain't.

You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.

I speak a little Polish, so I know Polish has gotten another syntax.
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 03:52:58 AM »

Калі, вашым меркаваннем, беларуская і расейская мовы - тая ж самая мова, давайце  пагаворым па-беларуску.
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2012, 04:44:09 AM »

Калі, вашым меркаваннем, беларуская і расейская мовы - тая ж самая мова, давайце  пагаворым па-беларуску.

Немного не так, я сказал, что это разные диалекты одного языка.
Ну давайте, только я буду говорить на петербургском диалекте (на котором говорю в быту), а вы (как предполагаю) на западно-беларуском диалекте нашего общего языка. И мы друг-друга поймем.  Если вам не нравится название "русский язык", можете придумать другое (например руський язык), но сути это не изменит.
А вот говорить только на западно-беларуском или только питерском - мы не сможем. На то они разные диалекты.

BTW, the Belorusian/Kievan dialect is more understandable for a Moscovite, than the Siberian one.  

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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 09:18:19 AM »

So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.

Honestly, they are dialects of German; Politically, they ain't.
No, they aren't.  Honestly.  Same with Afrikaans, which has been a separate language for a century.

You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.

I speak a little Polish, so I know Polish has gotten another syntax.
I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2012, 04:00:12 AM »

I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.

Are you kidding me? Do you spek Polish?

Here is a noun declension in Ukrainian and Russian:

Ukr:
кто, что?   кошка
кого, чего?   кошки
кому, чему?   кошці
кого, что?   кошку
кем, чем?   кошкою
о ком, о чём?   о кошці
О      кошко

Rus:
кто, что?   кошка
кого, чего?   кошки   
кому, чему?   кошке   
кого, что?   кошку   
кем, чем?   кошкой   
о ком, о чём?   о кошке   
[О      кошка (кошко)]

They are the same! And compare it with the Polish declension:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Noun_cases
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« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2012, 11:06:40 AM »

kto? co? kotka
kogo? czego? kotki
komu? czemu? kotce
kogo? co? kotkę
kim? czym? kotką
o kim? o czym? o kotce?
o! kotko
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« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2012, 03:03:26 PM »

You people talk funny. You ain't from around here, are ya?
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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2012, 09:28:23 PM »

I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.

Are you kidding me? Do you spek Polish?

Here is a noun declension in Ukrainian and Russian:

Ukr:
кто, что?   кошка
кого, чего?   кошки
кому, чему?   кошці
кого, что?   кошку
кем, чем?   кошкою
о ком, о чём?   о кошці
О      кошко

Rus:
кто, что?   кошка
кого, чего?   кошки   
кому, чему?   кошке   
кого, что?   кошку   
кем, чем?   кошкой   
о ком, о чём?   о кошке   
[О      кошка (кошко)]

They are the same! And compare it with the Polish declension:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Noun_cases
that is declension. Not syntax.

btw, as for Polish:
kto co kotka
kogo czego kotki
komu czemu kotce
kogo co kotkę
kim czym kotką
o kim czym kotce
kto co kotko

btw, work on your Ukrainian: the word for cat is  кішка or  кіт.  the o,e>i shift is one of the characteristics of Ukrainian.  And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.
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« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2012, 11:24:47 PM »

that is declension. Not syntax.

We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.
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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2012, 11:32:28 PM »

kogo? co? kotkę
kim? czym? kotką

Quote
Ukr:
кого, что?   кошку
кем, чем?   кошкою

Rus:
кого, что?   кошку  
кем, чем?   кошкой

---
Well, Ukrainian and Russian "koshku" vs Polish "kotkę [kotken]"
 and "koshkoy(u)" vs Polish "kotką [kotkon]".
They are different.
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« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2012, 11:40:05 PM »

that is declension. Not syntax.

We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.
evidently not:
http://www.warsaw-life.com/sleep/hotels_details/71-Czarny_Kot
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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2012, 11:50:44 PM »

And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.

Doch, it does: the diphthong ьо does sound like the Russian letter ё.

Quote
And хто means "who" in Ukrainian

No doubt, I wouldn't understand that "hto" does mean "kto" without your "help" (sarcasm).  
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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2012, 11:54:58 PM »

that is declension. Not syntax.

We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.
evidently not:
http://www.warsaw-life.com/sleep/hotels_details/71-Czarny_Kot

The hotel's name is an Americanism.

"As you can see from the example above, the adjective comes after the noun"
http://mylanguages.org/polish_adjectives.php
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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2012, 11:55:21 PM »

kogo? co? kotkę
kim? czym? kotką

Quote
Ukr:
кого, что?   кошку
кем, чем?   кошкою

Rus:
кого, что?   кошку   
кем, чем?   кошкой

---
Well, Ukrainian and Russian "koshku" vs Polish "kotkę [kotken]"
 and "koshkoy" vs Polish "kotką [kotkon]".
They are different.
It would help if you knew Ukrainian:
хтo що кішка
кого чого кішки
кому чому кішкi
кого що кішку
ким чим кішкою
о кому чому кішкі
                  кішко
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2012, 12:00:03 AM »

And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.

Doch, it does: the diphthong ьо does sound like the Russian letter ё.
and יו sounds like the same in Hebrew. Doesn't have a thing to do with Ukrainian phonology either.

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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2012, 12:07:53 AM »

And хто means "who" in Ukrainian

No doubt, I wouldn't understand that "hto" does mean "kto" without your "help" (sarcasm).  
кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:19 AM »

кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.

In your fantasies.
Compare how the English Queen pronounces the word "hot" and how do those from the Wild West. And then tell me that "hat" and "hot" are different words from English and  American languages (the same how they pronounce "g" in Northern and Southern German).
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 12:15:54 AM »

that is declension. Not syntax.

We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.
evidently not:
http://www.warsaw-life.com/sleep/hotels_details/71-Czarny_Kot

The hotel's name is an Americanism.

"As you can see from the example above, the adjective comes after the noun"
http://mylanguages.org/polish_adjectives.php
put in the correct form "czarna kotka" on polish google, and all sorts of results come up.
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2012, 12:26:56 AM »

кто doesn't mean anything in Ukrainian.

In your fantasies.
No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.
Compare how the English Queen pronounces the word "hot" and how do those from the Wild West. And then tell me that "hat" and "hot" are different words from English and  American languages (the same how they pronounce "g" in Northern and Southern German).
and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?
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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2012, 12:41:11 AM »

No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.

Printed in Lemberg.

Quote
and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?

I always had a dim suspicion that American language is another one than Brittish. Many thanks to your logic for opening my eyes (sarcasm).
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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2012, 01:02:40 AM »

put in the correct form "czarna kotka" on polish google, and all sorts of results come up.

"Descriptive adjectives usually appear before the noun while adjectives used to classify nouns tend to come after". http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Polish_nouns_and_adjectives

Thus, the Russian and Polish syntaxes are still different.
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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2012, 04:04:26 AM »

And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.

Doch, it does: the diphthong ьо does sound like the Russian letter ё.
and יו sounds like the same in Hebrew. Doesn't have a thing to do with Ukrainian phonology either.

It isn't worth wasting time to discuss anything with someone who believes something in the realm of science (linguistics in this case) due to a religious belief (Russian chauvinism in this case).  In most cases ьо is used to transliterate Russian last names into Ukrainian.  There is no natural shift from e to ьо like Russian е to ё due to shifting stress patterns in Ukrainian.  The use of і rather than о or е in closed syllables is a unique phonetic feature of Ukrainian not shared by either Polish or Russian.  But what would I know.  I only deal with this stuff everyday at work both as a translator and teacher.  I actually talk to native Ukrainian speakers everyday.  Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda from his computer in Kyrgyzstan.   
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« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2012, 04:32:01 AM »

I only deal with this stuff everyday at work both as a translator and teacher.  I actually talk to native Ukrainian speakers everyday. 

A famous Ukrainian philosopher Anatoly Vasserman (from Odessa), speaks perfect Ukrainian since his youth and consider it a dialect of the Russian.
He explains his point of view here:

"Вассерман считает украинский язык диалектом русского" http://korrespondent.net/russia/776455
"Вассерман: укранского языка нет" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStdlSeRBw0
"Анатолий Вассерман - Разом нас богато" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUQlzrLN1mc
"Вассерман про Украину, Польшу и Россию" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-mtwfB1634
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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2012, 04:36:03 AM »

Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2012, 04:49:20 AM »

It isn't worth wasting time to discuss anything with someone who believes something in the realm of science (linguistics in this case) due to a religious belief (Russian chauvinism in this case). 

Considering I'm an open-minded person, gimme some reliable facts and I'll change my mind.
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2012, 04:55:57 AM »

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages. The former is the descendant of Old Saxon (Ingvaeonic), the latter of Franconian (Erminonic). Plattdeutsch is certainly far more closely related to English and Frisian (though not Dutch as that's Istvaeonic) than it is to Hochdeutsch. All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

James
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 05:26:26 AM »

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages.

Well, if they don't have the same syntax, just give a link on a relaible source instead of doing empty ad personal arguments.

Quote
All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics

A very good ad personal argument without any other arguments to the point.
A familiar translator of me, once translated a Frisian text through his knowledge of the German, he said: "C'mon it's just a dialect of the German". I don't know, but he is a profi, and -I must say- a good profi .

Quote
and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

You are drawing conclusions about Ukrainian language through my undesrtanding of German syntax through my familiar German translator? Cool.
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2012, 06:01:27 AM »

That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch aren't even in the same family of Germanic languages.

Well, if they don't have the same syntax, just give a link on a relaible source instead of doing empty ad personal arguments.

Quote
All you do by making such claims is demonstrate your ignorance of linguistics

A very good ad personal argument without any other arguments to the point.
A familiar translator of me, once translated a Frisian text through his knowledge of the German, he said: "C'mon it's just a dialect of the German". I don't know, but he is a profi, and -I must say- a good profi .

There was no personal attack at all - it was simply an observation that you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of linguistics when making claims such as you do. Incidentally there's much, much more to a language than syntax (which is basically sentence structure) such as morphology, phonology etc. The fact that you seem to think syntax is the be-all and end-all of linguistic analysis serves to reinforce my impressions of your knowledge of the area.

And being able to understand one language by using another doesn't make the two dialects of each other. I can understand Italian pretty well because I speak Romanian - that doesn't mean that either language is a dialect of the other - it means that they are related languages because they share Latin as an ancestor. Frisian and Hochdeutsch are both West Germanic languages so it's hardly a surprise to find that they're related but one is most definitely not a dialect of the other. Same goes for Plattdeutsch.

Quote
Quote
and further reinforce the impression that your claim that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian is nothing more than politicking.

You are drawing conclusions about Ukrainian language through my undesrtanding of German syntax through my familiar German translator? Cool.

No, I'm drawing conclusions about your degree of understanding of linguistics, which doesn't seem up to the task of determining whether or not we should consider Ukrainian a dialect of Russian, which reinforces the impression that you are basing your analysis on a priori political position rather than on anything else. I've already said earlier in the thread that I have no specific knowledge of the development of Ukrainian and Russian. I do, however, have a background in linguistics and I tend to react with scepticism when people demonstrate the paucity of knowledge you have whilst adamantly arguing from a political position - that's no different to what happened with Moldova under Stalin.

James
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« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2012, 06:31:01 AM »

Vlad, I don't know where to really start since you seem to reject the entire classification system of modern linguistics.  Wasserman is an extremist politician.  I'd hardly take his views as definitive.   Start with the wikipedia article on Ukrainian.  It is well sourced with academic citations.  A rambling youtube video isn't an academic citation. 

Do you mean Kyiv?  Kyiv is the capital of Ukraine.  Last I heard you weren't Ukrainian, so it isn't your ancient capital.  Spend some time in towns around Kyivs'ka Oblast' and you'll hear plenty of beautiful, standard Ukrainian.  When I was in Poltava last summer, also pure, standard Ukrainian was the language on the streets.  Even in Kyiv proper it's not uncommon to hear Ukrainian these days.  You really have to spend some time here before you can pontificate about what language people in Ukraine speak. 
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« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2012, 07:27:52 AM »

Vlad reads anti-Ukrainian propaganda

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!
Austrian Lemberg, where's that?
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« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2012, 09:11:50 AM »

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2012, 10:00:46 AM »

Austrian Lemberg, where's that?

That was a Polish city, there in Austrian Empire (check the ethnic map below). After the Empire's collapse it went to Poland. Stalin has annexed it, renamed in Lvov (Lviv) and added it into the Ukrainian SSR in 1937.
What the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services - who invented the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in 19th century to undermine the Russian rival - have to do with Ukrainian people is a good question, especially for the Ukrainians themself.

At the beggining it was a Rusian city there in the Kievan Rus'. Then it detached from Rus' (BTW before the collapse of the Kievan Rus'!) and became an independent State which soon became a Polish/Hungarian/Austrian colony. It also changed its faith and converted into Catholicism. Then it was strictly polonized. It was a city where there the Ukrainians (or Rusians by the time) considered as subhumans. Even at the 20th century there were numerous cafes and pubs with sighns like "no admittance for the Ukrainians".



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« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2012, 10:04:02 AM »

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley


...This people love Ukraine and have no idea of its history at all. OMG...
But it makes no sense to talk to you, since you rely upon your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.
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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2012, 10:09:41 AM »

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley


...This people love Ukraine and have no idea of its history at all. OMG...
But it makes no sense to talk to you, since you rely upon your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.
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« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2012, 10:34:13 AM »

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Then give some arguments with facts and logic.
So far it was only emotions like these:

Blah, blah, blah....

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley

Actually these massages are a kind of Internet flaming and may be considered as trolling.
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2012, 10:40:39 AM »

such as morphology, phonology etc.

The dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one have the same morphology as the Ukrainian language does.
The dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one have almost the same phonology (see: Ukraianian phonology) as the Ukrainian language does.
The Ukrainian phonetcs sounds like an archaic form of the medieval Russian, sometimes it sounds like a poetic form of the modern Russian, sometimes it like an accent of the vilagers... but it doesn't have anything special in comparison with the dialects of Archangelsk, Ural, Moscow, Petersburg and South Russian one...
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2012, 11:18:50 AM »

Austrian Lemberg, where's that?
That was a Polish city
It IS a Ukrainian city
there in Austrian Empire (check the ethnic map below)
there in the Polish Empire

isn't that Kiev-or should I say Kijów?-in there too, in lands of the Polish crown?
After the Empire's collapse it went to Poland.
After the Empire's collapse it went on to become the capital of the West Ukrainian People's Republic


Stalin has annexed it, renamed in Lvov (Lviv)

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.
and added it into the Ukrainian SSR in 1937.
1939.
What the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services - who invented the idea of Ukrainian nationalism in 19th century to undermine the Russian rival - have to do with Ukrainian people is a good question, especially for the Ukrainians themself.
Since the Poles were too busy polonizing the Ukrainians (and everyone else they could get their hands on), and the Austrians acknowledged the Ukrainians and Ruthenians only as far as they adhered to Brest (they had already begun to come back to Orthodoxy, neighboring Bukowina having a nearly all Orthodox population of Ukrainians, Ruthenians and Hutsuls), who invented the idea that the Polish linguists and the Austrian secret services created Ukrainian nationalism in the 19th century to fuel conspiracy theories among their Russian rivals is a good question for the Russians themselves.

At the beggining it was a Rusian
Rus'.  It was Russian only briefly, during WWI.
city there in the Kievan Rus'. Then it detached from Rus' (BTW before the collapse of the Kievan Rus'!)
It was founded after Kievan Rus' collapsed, almost two decades after the Mongols sacked Kiev, and after the Metropolitan ceased to base himself in Kiev

and became an independent State which soon became a Polish/Hungarian/Austrian colony.
a century. Not exactly super soon.


It also changed its faith and converted into Catholicism.

No.  L'viv didn't sign off on Brest, and resisted it for over a century.  When Kaiser Joseph II came to liquidate the last Orthodox monastery in Galicia, the Orthodox L'viv petitioned for their Church, which serves again as the Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral of L'viv, after the illegal seizure of St. George


Then it was strictly polonized. It was a city where there the Ukrainians (or Rusians by the time) considered as subhumans. Even at the 20th century there were numerous cafes and pubs with sighns like "no admittance for the Ukrainians".
True, but the Ukrainians survived it.
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2012, 11:20:40 AM »

Actually, you make no sense, because you rely on your emotions instead of the truth, facts and logic.

Then give some arguments with facts and logic.
So far it was only emotions like these:

Blah, blah, blah....

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley

Actually these massages are a kind of Internet flaming and may be considered as trolling.
Is it called Internet smoking, when you have no fire?
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2012, 01:12:26 PM »

BTW the Polish word for "cat" is "kot" but I used a word for female cat because you had used them too (IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2012, 03:07:52 PM »


I don't know about the Russians, but, the Ukrainian definitely do!
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »

Wow. This thread is stupider than I ever dared hope. It's almost beautiful in the perfection of its stupidity. Here, let me add to it... Grin

I am all for dialect continua (Isa and I have discussed this before in other threads), but in a micro-level geographical view such that the Scandinavian languages may be said to in a sense form one such continuum such that speakers the next town over may understand one another, and the next town over, etc. (hence forming a sort of chain with unintelligible end points, which I am sure is evidenced by speech varieties on either side of the Ru/Ukr border). That is something different than saying, categorically, that they are all dialects of one supposedly primary macro-language. There is really very little to substantiate that idea, particular given the insights shown via Swadesh's glottochronology and the various challenges to it. The insight there, of course, is that languages develop from the proto-language (not from one another!) at different rates but core vocabulary remains at about 85% per millennium. This was challenged by people who came up with examples like Icelandic and Lithuanian which seem to show a slower rate of change, but if this is averaged out with languages on the other end (those with a faster rate of change), what you see is more or less a stereotypical bell curve (also, the 85% that is retained is basic vocab you wouldn't expect to be replaced anyway, like the stuff in Swadesh's famous list, so there is also kind of a "yeah, so what?" element here). What does this tell us? Unless you can peg its development to a relatively specific time period wherein speakers of what would become language Y separated from the main body of speakers of X (say, the Boers arriving in S. Africa), talking about X as a dialect of Y says more about you than it does about linguistic history. You cannot really look in isolation at vocabulary or syntax and say "aha! This proves that this is a dialect of that!", as though their shared parentage is of no consequence. I would think that a great many of the correspondences you see between Ukrainian and Russian are a result of this shared genetic affiliation, rather than evidence that Ukrainian somehow budded from Russian (doesn't history suggest otherwise? Wasn't Kiev the capital of Rus'?). Now, I am shamefully and happily ignorant about such things as relate to Russian and Ukrainian, but I do know that as a Russian student for about 6 years who also interacted with a fair share of Ukrainians in that time, they could understand me much easier than I could understand them (though we were able to communicate basic ideas quite well). A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.

You could do with some education in historical linguistics and typology, Vladik. I recommend Trask's introductory text (I just sold my copy, but I think it's just called "Trask's historical linguistics") or, if you are more advanced, Croft's "Typology" (one of the Cambridge series of textbooks in linguistics) or Comrie's "Linguistic Typology" (this was what got me interested in typology and genetic classification).
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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2012, 04:30:30 PM »

Just to confuse this more off topic:
A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.
Then we have the issue of Galician, which can't decide whether it is a Spanish dialect, a Portuguese dialect or its own language (actually, I lie: the speakers and others have decided.  They just don't agree on the decision made).
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« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2012, 04:39:04 PM »

Just to confuse this more off topic:
A comparison could perhaps be made here between the relationship of Portuguese to Spanish, which nobody in their right mind would call dialects of the same language! But they certainly do share a common history, up to a point.
Then we have the issue of Galician, which can't decide whether it is a Spanish dialect, a Portuguese dialect or its own language (actually, I lie: the speakers and others have decided.  They just don't agree on the decision made).

Of course (this is why I edited my post to include a bit on the speech varieties that I assume exist on either side of the Ru/Ukr border, with things like Galician in mind). As a near-native Spanish speaker (since age 4, naturalistically and via school), I could go either way on Galician. Let the Galicians fight it out. The Ukrainians already did, but as we can see by this thread, there is never a 100% agreed upon solution.
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« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2012, 05:25:31 PM »

BTW the Polish word for "cat" is "kot" but I used a word for female cat because you had used them too (IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

Generally the female form is the default rather than the male form of an animal in Russian.  Hence кошка, собака, коза, etc.  I'd only use кот or пёс if I were specifically referring to a tomcat or male dog.  I'd use козёл mainly for a person  Cheesy

When people feel threatened by something...they go well out of their way to "diminish" it or lessen it's true value in their minds.

So, I can only imagine how threatened some people must be by all things Ukrainian.

Smiley
 

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  I ascribe it to a sort of gopnik, alpha-male culture that dominates in certain quarters of the russosphere.  They can only feel confident if they are putting down others.  It is unfortunate as this is in no way representative.  When I was on the transiberian traveling from China to Ukraine, I remember how so many people thought it was so neat that I was moving to Ukraine and had nothing but praise for the country.  I remember laughing off a friendly бабушка who predicted I'd marry a Ukrainian girl who'd feed me salo and I'd become fat.  To date I'm the only documented foreigner who has lost weight after marrying a Ukrainian, but the rest is true  Smiley

Some people whom I met in Russia during my travels have actually come out to visit me in the past two years.  Even though they knew everyone here speaks fluent Russian if the need arises, they learned some pleasantries in Ukrainian.  Those are the Russians that I know personally - awesome people with a profound culture but also deeply respectful of other cultures.  Unfortunately a few chauvinists get all the attention. 
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« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 11:35:19 PM »

(IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

кот - male
кошка - female
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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 11:44:35 PM »

(IDK whether Russians and Ukraininas don't have male cats).

кот - male
кошка - female
кiт - male
кiшка - female
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 11:47:41 PM »

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.
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« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2012, 12:17:57 AM »

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.
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« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2012, 01:42:53 AM »

It is amazing how someone living in Kyrgyzstan feels such deep animosity towards Ukrainians that he feels behooved to constantly post about it on an internet forum.  

It is amazing how someone, who lives only a couple of years in the CIS - and who, at the same time, considers his (or his Ukrainian wife's) point of view as the only true one - loves so much making ad personal and unsubstantiated arguments about me, in almost every topic I'm participating in.
It is a scientific discussion, if you don't have some serious arguments, please don't post here.

P.S.

I feel nothing about the Ukrainians. At the same time I hate lie, which harms people.

As I have pointed out, the idea that Ukrainian is a separate Eastern Slavic language than Russian is accepted by the overwhelming majority of academic linguists.  That is a basic fact.  It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.  There's hope though for Russia.  Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.
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« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2012, 02:02:06 AM »

It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.

Trubetzkoy was an outstanding linguist of our days. jmbejdl said here about the phonology, so open open the Wikipedia's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology , so you can see there a pic of Prince Trubetzkoy and this text:

"An influential school of phonology in the interwar period was the Prague School. One of its leading members was Prince Nikolai Trubetzkoy, whose Grundzüge der Phonologie (Principles of Phonology),[3] published posthumously in 1939, is among the most important works in the field from this period. Directly influenced by Baudouin de Courtenay, Trubetzkoy is considered the founder of morphophonology, although this concept had also been recognized by de Courtenay. Trubetzkoy also developed the concept of the archiphoneme. Another important figure in the Prague School was Roman Jakobson, who was one of the most prominent linguists of the 20th century."

And you are stupidely slandering him.

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.
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« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2012, 02:12:17 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?
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« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2012, 02:47:42 AM »

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.

This is true, so I ask you: Do you know of any modern linguists who hold to Trubetzkoy's view regarding Ukrainian? (preferably non-Soviet/non-Russian, to make sure that they are disinterested.)

I have read some very strange theories from linguists and people who call themselves linguists who apparently do not understand the basic principles of historical linguistics and genetic classification: That just about anything under the sun is genetically related to Basque (my favorites are Georgian and Japanese), that Indo-European and Semitic and various others form a definable super-family (the infamous "Nostratic hypothesis" which is generally rejected by linguists outside of a tiny minority of Russians), that Coptic is essentially Arabic (this is why you don't get a degree in any kind of science from Al Azhar), etc. You must be careful not endorse such a hypothesis yourself due to a confirmation bias based on politics or nationalistic feelings rather than on solid linguistic principles.

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« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2012, 03:27:10 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?

 Cheesy  You've never been to Kyiv or heard people speak Ukrainian in Central Ukraine, I take it?  If by literary language you mean that of Ukrainian literature then I'd think you'd be interested in the language of Shevchenko or Kotliarevsky.  Modern Standard Ukrainian comes from the dialects of Poltava, Kharkiv and Kyiv.  The dialects of Halychyna are not the basis of the standard language.  So your theory doesn't really work.     
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« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2012, 04:20:22 AM »

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th.  

Here is the original text

Please compare it with Russian, Ukrainian or Belarusian language/dialect and you'll see that the modern Russian language sounds amasingly similar with this old Kievan dialect (but polonised Ukrainian or Belarusian don't).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:23:06 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2012, 04:34:45 AM »

Ukrainian nationalism started much earlier:

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« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2012, 09:49:02 AM »

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th [century].  

1. Now, I'm going to cite the Ukrainian Wikipedia (I never learnt Ukrainian but I understand it perfectly, you all know why Cheesy )

"Слово о полку Ігоревім ... — героїчна поема кінця XII ст, найвідоміша пам'ятка давньоукраїнської літератури ... Мова, якою написано «Слова о полку Ігоревім», це тогочасна літературна мова русинів, подібна до мови літописів, але з помітно більшими впливами народної. Більшість дослідників припускають, що автор «Слово…» був або киянин або чернігівець, ін. (Орлов, Юґов) доводять, що він мусив бути галичанином («карпаторус»)" (see: Слово о полку Ігоревім)

There is said that The Tale of Igor's Campaign ( Слово о полку Игореве) is an old Ukrainian book, written by a Ukrainian from either Kiev or maybe from Chernigiv or Galichina (Galicia/Galichina is the land where is modern Lemberg/Lviv located).  
Thus, according to the Ukrainians it is a Ukrainian book, written in old Ukrainian language (the Russians consider it as an old Russian book).

---

2. Now, let's look into this book.

My favourite fragment:

Почнемъ же, братiе, повѣсть сiю отъ стараго Владимера до нынѣшняго Игоря; иже истягну умь крѣпостiю своею, и поостри сердца своего мужествомъ, наплънився ратнаго духа, наведе своя храбрыя плъкы на землю Половѣцькую за землю Руськую.

The same in modern cyrilic letters:

Почнем же, братие, повесть сию от старого Владимера до нынешняго Игоря; иже истягну ум крепостию своею, и поостри сердца своего мужеством, напленився ратнага духа, наведе своя храбрыя плекы на землю Половецкую за землю Руськую.

The same in English transliteration:

Pochnem zhe, bratie, povestʹ siyu ot starogo Vladimera do nyneshnyago Igorya; izhe istyagnu um krepostiyu svoyeyu, i poostri serdtsa svoego muzhestvom, naplenivsya ratnaga dukha, navede svoya khrabryya pleky na zemlyu Polovetskuyu za zemlyu Rusʹkuyu

---

3. It's obvious that this book has morphology, phonetics, phonology and lexicon extremely close to the modern Russian language.

Compare how it is called in Old Kievan dialect:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Russian:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Ukrainian:

"Слово о полку Ігоревім" (Slovo o polku Igorevim)

And how it is called in moderm Belarusian:

"Слова пра паход Ігараў" (Slova pra pakhod Igarau)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:51:06 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2012, 10:01:02 AM »

Note, that St Vladimir the Great is called there as "Vladimer" (Владимер) but not like "Volodimir" as they say in modern Ukraine (campare it with modern Russian "Vladimir").

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?  
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« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2012, 10:04:12 AM »

I prefer arguments about whether Hindi and Urdu are different languages.
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« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2012, 10:51:17 AM »

It is only a few Russian chauvinists that refuse to accept that.

Trubetzkoy was an outstanding linguist of our days. jmbejdl said here about the phonology, so open open the Wikipedia's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology , so you can see there a pic of Prince Trubetzkoy and this text:

"An influential school of phonology in the interwar period was the Prague School. One of its leading members was Prince Nikolai Trubetzkoy, whose Grundzüge der Phonologie (Principles of Phonology),[3] published posthumously in 1939, is among the most important works in the field from this period. Directly influenced by Baudouin de Courtenay, Trubetzkoy is considered the founder of morphophonology, although this concept had also been recognized by de Courtenay. Trubetzkoy also developed the concept of the archiphoneme. Another important figure in the Prague School was Roman Jakobson, who was one of the most prominent linguists of the 20th century."

And you are stupidely slandering him.

There are different theories in the science, including the Trubetzkoy's point of view. And only a fanatic will hate different opinions.
and you do.

You have invoked Trubetzkoy.  You haven't cited nor quoted him.
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« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2012, 11:01:09 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1
And the Romonovs were really the Holstein-Gottorps.  Your point?

And who was "Pan Gruszewsky," with the obvious Polish spelling and title?

This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.

The Brotherhood of SS. Cyril and Methodius consolidated that project 70 years before WWI.

The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?
your ravings? nothing.
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« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »

Even Poland has gotten over it's imperial ambitions.  I guess Russia needs a few more generations.

I've clearly said above:

I'm not against Ukrainian language. Let it be if the Ukrainians want it.
But let it be the true Ukrainian language which always been spoken there is in Kiev, in our ancient capital! Instead of that pseudo-Ukrainian (Polish!) language from Warszaw, Krakow and Austrian Lemberg!

Thus, I'm the only one true Ukrainian patriot here. Since, the modern literary Ukrainian language is a Polish/Austrian imperial ambition and has nothing to do with the historical Ukrainian language.
Why do you refuse to utter a word that Pan Gruszewky was a German collaborationist during the German occupation of Kiev in WW1? This was the first time when he got oportunity to get started with his project of the Ukrainian nationalism.
The occupants, who wanted to colonize Ukraine and consider the Ukrainians as subhumans, had created this project, what has it to do with Ukrainian patriotism and national honour?

 Cheesy  You've never been to Kyiv or heard people speak Ukrainian in Central Ukraine, I take it?  If by literary language you mean that of Ukrainian literature then I'd think you'd be interested in the language of Shevchenko or Kotliarevsky.  Modern Standard Ukrainian comes from the dialects of Poltava, Kharkiv and Kyiv.  The dialects of Halychyna are not the basis of the standard language.  So your theory doesn't really work.     
Oleksej P. Pavlovskij presented to the Russian Academy in 1805 the first grammar (published in 1818) of this Modern Standard Ukrainian you describe.  Galician Ukrainian didn't get such a treatment until decades later.

but that doesn't fit Vladik's rants.
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« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2012, 11:26:55 AM »

The Tale of Igor's Campaign was the first Ruthenian (Rusian) "bestseller", written in old Kievan dialect in the city of Kiev in the 12th [century].  

1. Now, I'm going to cite the Ukrainian Wikipedia (I never learnt Ukrainian but I understand it perfectly, you all know why Cheesy )

"Слово о полку Ігоревім ... — героїчна поема кінця XII ст, найвідоміша пам'ятка давньоукраїнської літератури ... Мова, якою написано «Слова о полку Ігоревім», це тогочасна літературна мова русинів, подібна до мови літописів, але з помітно більшими впливами народної. Більшість дослідників припускають, що автор «Слово…» був або киянин або чернігівець, ін. (Орлов, Юґов) доводять, що він мусив бути галичанином («карпаторус»)" (see: Слово о полку Ігоревім)

There is said that The Tale of Igor's Campaign ( Слово о полку Игореве) is an old Ukrainian book, written by a Ukrainian from either Kiev or maybe from Chernigiv or Galichina (Galicia/Galichina is the land where is modern Lemberg/Lviv located).  
Thus, according to the Ukrainians it is a Ukrainian book, written in old Ukrainian language (the Russians consider it as an old Russian book).

---

2. Now, let's look into this book.

My favourite fragment:

Почнемъ же, братiе, повѣсть сiю отъ стараго Владимера до нынѣшняго Игоря; иже истягну умь крѣпостiю своею, и поостри сердца своего мужествомъ, наплънився ратнаго духа, наведе своя храбрыя плъкы на землю Половѣцькую за землю Руськую.

The same in modern cyrilic letters:

Почнем же, братие, повесть сию от старого Владимера до нынешняго Игоря; иже истягну ум крепостию своею, и поостри сердца своего мужеством, напленився ратнага духа, наведе своя храбрыя плекы на землю Половецкую за землю Руськую.

The same in English transliteration:

Pochnem zhe, bratie, povestʹ siyu ot starogo Vladimera do nyneshnyago Igorya; izhe istyagnu um krepostiyu svoyeyu, i poostri serdtsa svoego muzhestvom, naplenivsya ratnaga dukha, navede svoya khrabryya pleky na zemlyu Polovetskuyu za zemlyu Rusʹkuyu

---

3. It's obvious that this book has morphology, phonetics, phonology and lexicon extremely close to the modern Russian language.

Compare how it is called in Old Kievan dialect:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Russian:

"Слово о полку Игореве" (Slovo o polku Igoreve)

How it is called in modern Ukrainian:

"Слово о полку Ігоревім" (Slovo o polku Igorevim)

And how it is called in moderm Belarusian:

"Слова пра паход Ігараў" (Slova pra pakhod Igarau)


and modern Polish:

"Słowo o wyprawie Igora" (Slovo o vyprav'e Igora)
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« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »

It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax!

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« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2012, 11:34:12 AM »

No, in the Ukrainian dictionaries.

Printed in Lemberg.
The Ukrainian Academy is Kiev.  And you can't print anything in Lemberg.

Quote
and the Queen of the Netherlands says "heet," the Queen of Denmark says "hed," the Queen of Norway says "het," the Queen of Sweden says "het."  As for those Germans in the North and South, they say "heet" and "heiß" respectively. Your point?

I always had a dim suspicion that American language is another one than Brittish. Many thanks to your logic for opening my eyes (sarcasm).
Noah Webster wanted to make it another language.  He didn't succeed.  American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian.  At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.
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« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2012, 01:24:23 PM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.
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« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2012, 11:45:49 PM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.

1. There is said "за землю Руськую" (za zemlyu Rus'kuyu). In modern Russian it's: "za zemlyu Ruskuyu" (for the Russian land). All the same.
2. There is no a Rutheinia word. And FYI it does mean "Russia" in Latin language.
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« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2012, 12:12:30 AM »

American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian. 

Ukrainian language is closer to Russian, than London's cockney to Qeen's English.

Quote
At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.
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« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2012, 12:29:04 AM »

Note, that there is said "we go for the Russian Ruthenian land" (за землю Руськую) but not "for the Ukrainian land". I hope you all remember that the word Ukraine (Oukraina) does mean "the outskirts" in a translation from Old Slavonic?   

Fixed that for you.

1. There is said "за землю Руськую" (za zemlyu Rus'kuyu). In modern Russian it's: "za zemlyu Ruskuyu" (for the Russian land). All the same.
Only in your head.
2. There is no a Rutheinia word. And FYI it does mean "Russia" in Latin language.
No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."
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« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2012, 12:38:30 AM »

American English is closer to British English than Ukrainian is to Russian.  

Ukrainian language is closer to Russian, than London's cockney to Qeen's English.
Proof? particularly as the Queen's English is an artificial construct, and Cockney served as its substratum, and Cockney is reasserting itself.

Quote
At least the Americans and Brits use the exact same alphabet.

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.
Proof? particularly as, as I pointed out above, the first Modern Ukrainian Grammar was written for the Russian Academy, based on the speech of the Ukrainian cities and town in the Russian Empire.
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« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2012, 01:17:43 AM »

No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English
And Rusia is a sinonimous of Ruthenia there is in Latin.

2. Россия (Russia) is a Greek word for Rus' , adopted by Peter the great as the oficial name of Moscow Rus'.
Thus, even  Rus' and Russia are sinonimous.
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« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2012, 01:25:36 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.
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« Reply #102 on: May 23, 2012, 01:52:51 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.

The issue isn't linguistic, it is about not being anachronistic.  Modern ethnic identifiers have meant completely different things through the course of history. 
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« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2012, 05:28:39 AM »

Ukrainian alphabet was created in Lemberg by Polish linguists.

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English

And it translates "Białystok" as "New York". What is proven by that?
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« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2012, 06:45:23 AM »

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

A surname with -sky always sounds Polish. "Zh" (Polish "Rz") is also rather typical for Polish surnames.  
The Poles adore such words with "rz", "psz", "ski" ("Rzeczpospolita", "Przewalsky" etc).

"The Zhelekhivka became official in Galicia in 1893 [e.i. in Austrian Empire], and was adopted by many eastern Ukrainian publications after the Revolution. The Ukrainian National Republic adopted official Ukrainian orthographies in 1918 and 1919 [it was created during the German occupation], and Ukrainian publication increased, and then flourished under Skoropadsky's Hetmanate. Under the Bolshevik government of Ukraine, Ukrainian orthographies were confirmed in 1920 and 1921".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_alphabet

This alphabet comes from Catholic Lemberg (the capital of Galicia),created under the Austrian occupation with the help of Austrian government (no doubt it was a kind of a sabotage), adopted under the German occupation and forcely spread under the Bolsheviks.
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« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2012, 07:02:14 AM »

And it translates "Białystok" as "New York". What is proven by that?

No, Google translates it as Bialystok
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« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2012, 07:09:36 AM »

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« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2012, 07:15:55 AM »



Strangely... But I use google.com (American ome?) since it is the most developed version. And Byalostok is Byalostok there.
---

They say "Ruthenia" and "Russia" are sinonimous according to Hofmann's "Lexicon Universale"
See: http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Ruthenia
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« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2012, 07:19:51 AM »

There are 3 expressions for Ruthenia in Latin:

"Ruthenia Magna" (Russia or "Great Rus' "), "Ruthenia Minor" (Ukraine or "Little Rus' ") and "Ruthenia Alba" (Belarus or "White Rus' ").
And no wonder why, since they are 3 parts of the one country, the one people and the one language.

And our capital is Kiev and it will always be. As they say in Russia: "Kiev is the mother of the Russian cities" (Киев - мать городов русских).
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« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2012, 08:03:52 AM »

There are 3 expressions for Ruthenia in Latin:

"Ruthenia Magna" (Russia or "Great Rus' "), "Ruthenia Minor" (Ukraine or "Little Rus' ") and "Ruthenia Alba" (Belarus or "White Rus' ").
And no wonder why, since they are 3 parts of the one country, the one people and the one language.
which must be Ossetic, as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."


And our capital is Kiev and it will always be. As they say in Russia: "Kiev is the mother of the Russian cities" (Киев - мать городов русских).
since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.
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« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2012, 08:25:17 AM »

Only in your head.

Dear Mr. I-don't-wanna-recognise-the-facts, tell me - a  native Russian speaker - please, what is difference between Rus'kuyu and Ruskuyu? All these words come from the word Rus'. 1st is old one, 2nd is modern one.
Sorry, part of my family comes near (Växjö) the original Rus'

and we speak Swedish, Mr. I-can't-recognize-the-facts.  We've dealt with this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43425.msg719868.html#msg719868
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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2012, 08:40:36 AM »

No, Rus'.  Russia is "Rusia."

1. Even Google translates Ruthenia as Russia from Latin into English
And Rusia is a sinonimous of Ruthenia there is in Latin.

2. Россия (Russia) is a Greek word for Rus' , adopted by Peter the great as the oficial name of Moscow Rus'.
Thus, even  Rus' and Russia are sinonimous.
Peter the so called great is dead, his dynasty deposed and his state abolished.  His fiat doesn't trump facts.

Btw, we dealt with this before:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23646.msg361255.html#msg361255

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.
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« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2012, 08:59:32 AM »

"Yevhen Zhelekhivsky" doesn't sound Polish.

A surname with -sky always sounds Polish. "Zh" (Polish "Rz") is also rather typical for Polish surnames.  
The Poles adore such words with "rz", "psz", "ski" ("Rzeczpospolita", "Przewalsky" etc).

"The Zhelekhivka became official in Galicia in 1893 [e.i. in Austrian Empire], and was adopted by many eastern Ukrainian publications after the Revolution. The Ukrainian National Republic adopted official Ukrainian orthographies in 1918 and 1919 [it was created during the German occupation], and Ukrainian publication increased, and then flourished under Skoropadsky's Hetmanate. Under the Bolshevik government of Ukraine, Ukrainian orthographies were confirmed in 1920 and 1921".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_alphabet

This alphabet comes from Catholic Lemberg (the capital of Galicia),created under the Austrian occupation with the help of Austrian government (no doubt it was a kind of a sabotage), adopted under the German occupation and forcely spread under the Bolsheviks.
since you like wikipedia:
Quote
Letter Є/є was derived from one of variant forms of Cyrillic Ye (Е е), known as "long E" or "anchor E". Є-shaped letter can be found in late uncial (ustav) and semi-uncial (poluustav) Cyrillic manuscripts, especially ones of Ukrainian origin. Typically it corresponds to the letter Iotated E (Ѥ ѥ) of older monuments. Certain old primers and grammar books of Church Slavonic language had listed Є/є as a letter distinct from Е/е and placed it near the end of the alphabet (the exact alphabet position varies). Among modern-style Cyrillic scripts (known as "civil script" or "Petrine script"), Є/є was first used in Serbian books (end of the 18th century and first half of the 19th century); sometimes, Serbian printers might be using Э/э instead of Є/є due to font availability. For the modern Ukrainian language, Є/є is used since 1837 (orthography of almanach "Русалка Днѣстровая")....

Since mid-17th c., the Church Slavonic orthography has the following main rules related to the usage of shapes Є and Е:..

publishers from Kiev also use Є in the genitive case of three pronouns (менє, тебє, себє), and Е in the accusative case (мене, тебе, себе);...

Notice 2. Old Believers print their books using an older variant of New Church Slavonic language. Its orthography combines the fully formal system described above with the older tradition to use Є phonetically (after vowels, to represent iotated /je/).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#History
Quote
The letter ‹ґ› was first introduced into the Slavic alphabet in 1619 by Meletius Smotrytsky in his "Slavic Grammar" (Грамматіки славєнскиѧ правилноє Сѵнтаґма).[4] Later, serving an identical purpose, it was saved in the new orthography of the Ukrainian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge_with_upturn#History

The universal orthography of Ukrainian is the Kharkiv, named after the city where it was adopted, way over on the other side of the country from L'viv.
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« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2012, 09:18:27 AM »

since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.

East and South Ukrainians, and even my familiar Kievans.
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« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2012, 09:22:07 AM »

since Kiev isn't in Russia, who cares what you say.

East and South Ukrainians, and even my familiar Kievans.
btw, the first Russian primer was published in L'viv.  So I guess Russian was a Polish plot.
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« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2012, 09:26:15 AM »

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.

Actually his name was Daniel of Galicia (Danila Galitsky)

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.

You forgot to say, that Pope gave Daniel "the Crown of Russia" and the title of a King, because Daniel had converted into Catholicism and betrayed the Orthodox faith.
All your "the Kingdom of Russia" was never accepted by the Orthodox population.

BTW here is Daniel, depicted on the Millennium of Russia monument
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« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2012, 09:50:48 AM »

King Danilo of Rus' (rex rusiae) and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus' founded it in 1256 and named it L'viv, after his son and heir, King Lev of Rus' and Grand Duke of Kiev and All Rus', who first raised it to the capital.

Actually his name was Daniel of Galicia (Danila Galitsky)
His title was King of Rus'

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv. And the Kingdom of Russia dates from the crowing of its king in the Polish city of Drohiczyn.

You forgot to say, that Pope gave Daniel "the Crown of Russia" and the title of a King, because Daniel had converted into Catholicism and betrayed the Orthodox faith.
No.  The Vatican likes to so claim, but King Danylo took the crown but never submitted.
All your "the Kingdom of Russia" was never accepted by the Orthodox population.
They accepted his Metropolitan Cyril of Kiev and All Rus' as their primate.
BTW here is Daniel, depicted on the Millennium of Russia monument

so I guess his kingdom was accepted by the Orthodox population after all. Grin
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« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.
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« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?
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« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv.

There were only five capitals of Rus', which ruled the whole her territory, but not some small parts. Here you are:

1. Ladoga (modern Russia)
2. Novgorod (modern Russia)
3. Kiev (modern Ukraine)
4. Moscow (modern Russia)
5. St Petersburg (modern Russia)

as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."

A typical and stupid medieval propaganda.
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« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2012, 11:36:54 AM »

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« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2012, 11:49:53 AM »

Btw, after 1270, the capital of "Regnum Rusie" "the Kingdom of Russia" was L'viv.

There were only five capitals of Rus', which ruled the whole her territory, but not some small parts. Here you are:

1. Ladoga (modern Russia)
never ruled Kiev, nor Galicia, nor Moscow
2. Novgorod (modern Russia)
3. Kiev (modern Ukraine)
4. Moscow (modern Russia)
5. St Petersburg (modern Russia)
5 never ruled Galicia, and 4 never did until 1940.

as another term for that "one country" is "Sarmatia."
A typical and stupid medieval propaganda.
like Ruthenia?
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« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2012, 12:13:37 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.
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« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2012, 12:20:56 PM »

I've made an analysis of the Tale of Igor's Campaign's first paragraph (see the text), in order to compare its lexicon with modern Russian and Ukrainian dialects\languages. I'd like to remind that it is a manuscript, written in the 12th century Kiev. 

I'll locate the chosen words in such sequence:

Old Kievan - Russian - Ukrainian 

былина - былина - билина
замышление - замышление - задум
серый - серый - сірий
трудный - трудный - важкий
время - время - час (from Polish czas)
мысль - мысль - думка
волк - волк - вовк
облако - облако - хмара (from Polish chmura)
речь - речь - мова (from Polish mowa)
первый - первый - перший (from Polish pierwszy)
времена - времена - часи (from Polish czasie)
тогда - тогда - тодi
сокол - сокол - сокiл
лебедь - лебедь - лебiдь
старый - старый - старий
храбрый - храбрый - хоробрий
зарезати - зарезать - зарізати
красный - красный - червоний
живой - живой - живий

As one can see, almost all the Old Kievan words are the same with the modern Russian ones. But the Ukrainian words are a bit distorted or substituted by the Polish ones.
Thus, one can say that modern Russian language is more traditionaly Ukrainian one, in comparisen with the modern literary Ukrainian language.

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

Transleteration into English:


Bylina – bylina - bylyna
zamyshlenie- zamyshlenia- zadum
seryi- seryi- siryi
trudnyi- trudnyi- vazhkiy
vremya- vremya- chas (from Polish czas)
mysl’ – mysl’- doumka
volk- volk- vovk
oblako- oblako- khmara (from Polish chmura)
rech- rech- mova (from Polish mowa)
pervyi - pervyi- pershyi (from Polish pierwszy)
vremena – vremena – chasy (from Polish czasie)
togda – togda - todee
sokol – sokol - sokyl
lebed’ – lebed’- lebyd’
старый - старый - старий (oops!)
Khrabryi – khrabryi - khorobyi
zarezati – zarezat’ – zarizati
krasnyi – krasnyi – chervonyi (from Polish czerwony as well)
zhivoy – zhivoy - zhivyi
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« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2012, 12:42:04 PM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."
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« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2012, 01:10:19 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.

Because just comparing words without any knowledge of their general frequency is useless.  Words like "old," "red," and "wolf" are more useful in suggesting etymological connections that "slaughter," "brave," and "thought."
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« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2012, 03:42:30 PM »

Can you do us non-Slavic speakers a favor and give the English equivalents of these?

perennial
thoughtfulness
raw
difficult
time
thought
wolf
cloud
speech
first
time
then
falcon
swan
old
brave
slaughter
red
alife

Not sure why did you need that.

Because just comparing words without any knowledge of their general frequency is useless.  Words like "old," "red," and "wolf" are more useful in suggesting etymological connections that "slaughter," "brave," and "thought."

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).
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« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2012, 03:50:11 PM »

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).

Swadesh, after Morris Swadesh. It would be odd to have a Swedish list in Slavic... Smiley
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« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2012, 03:55:16 PM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

And there are other instances as well. 

Floor, second, other, all of the months (as Michal already mentioned), the retention of older case endings where Ukrainian has older forms than Russian. 
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« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2012, 04:13:33 PM »

hence the idea of the Swedish list (there's a link to one for the Slavic languages above).

Swadesh, after Morris Swadesh. It would be odd to have a Swedish list in Slavic... Smiley
well, that is where the Rus' came from. Tongue
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« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2012, 04:55:15 PM »

Hahaha. Yes, yes, fine. Smiley
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« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2012, 12:39:44 AM »

Here is the list of Proto-Slavic naming for months:

berzьnь — март
květьnь — апрель
travьnь — май
čьrvьnь — июнь
lipьnь — июль
sьrpьnь — август
versьnь — сентябрь
rujьnь — октябрь
listopadъ — ноябрь
grudьnь — декабрь
prosinьcь — январь
sěčьnь — февраль





A very cheap machination. I've showed you an ancient Kievan manuscript and prooved that Russian language is a more direct successor of Old Kievan dialect than modern Ukrainian language.  
On the other hand you're showing me a stupid demotevator about 12 months.
 
1. It's actually really stupid since Peter the Great decided to substitute all Slavic months in Russia by Latin words.
2. Ukrainian and Belarusian months are similar only in 5 cases.
3. Some of Ukrainian and Belarusian months are substituted by Polish words again (Ukrainian грудень - comes from Polish grudzień)
4. Here is a list of Russian months up to Peter the Great:

Spring

белояр
цветень
травень

Summer

кресень
червень
серпень

Autumn

велесень
овсень
листопад

Winter

просинец
лютень

Proof
 
6. Serbians and Slovakians lost the names of their months at all.

7. All the Slavs had almost the same names of months http://www.lingvisto.org/artikoloj/monatoj.html
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« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2012, 12:49:11 AM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

Link?
It doesn't matter that mova maybe comes from Proto-Slavic mleva , the point is that they never used it as a word for "language" there in Kievan Rus' (or you maybe can cite here some manuscripts? Cheesy).

Not but what the word "twaddle" or "speech" (mova) had substituted the previous Old Kievan word "language" (rech).
This is what I call a distortion of the language.

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« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2012, 01:19:31 AM »

Just at random:мова comes from Proto-Slavic mъlva, which was in Old Russian as mlъva "tumult, commotion."  It shows up in Bulgarian mălvá "racket" and Macedonian molvá "rumor, talk."  The Proto-Slavic rěčь became  річ in Ukrainian "thing."

Link?
try this
http://books.google.com/books?id=LJFiAAAAMAAJ&dq=etymological+dictionary+of+slavic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1hK_T4vBM6ae6QHxsbmhCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA

It doesn't matter that mova maybe comes from Proto-Slavic mleva , the point is that they never used it as a word for "language" there in Kievan Rus' (or you maybe can cite here some manuscripts? Cheesy).

Not but what the word "twaddle" or "speech" (mova) had substituted the previous Old Kievan word "language" (rech).
This is what I call a distortion of the language.
because your thinking is distorted.

Where's your dictionary of "Old Kievan words", as the word for language ęzykъ was used.
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« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2012, 02:17:43 AM »

because your thinking is distorted.

Where's your dictionary of "Old Kievan words", as the word for language ęzykъ was used.

At least we also say: "Русская речь" (Russian language). Compare it with old Kievan: "речь първыхъ временъ" (rech pervykh vremen - the language of first times) from the manuscript.
It's the same like modern Russian: "речь первых времен"  (rech pervykh vremen).

And compare it with the Ukrainian eqvivalent: "mova pervshykh chasiv
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« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »

Do you know of any modern linguists who hold to Trubetzkoy's view regarding Ukrainian?

For instance Александр Каревин (Alexandr Karevin) a linguist and historian from Kiev (Ukraine).  Grin
http://alternatio.org/articles/library/item/146-
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« Reply #136 on: May 27, 2012, 05:13:17 AM »

For instance Александр Каревин (Alexandr Karevin) a linguist and historian from Kiev (Ukraine).  Grin

E.g. Karevin cites Пересторога, a polemical anti-Eastern Catholic pamphlet, written in Lemberg (L'vov) in 1605 - from all appearances - by Job Boretsky, a Ukrainian Orthodox Mitropolitan.    

«Как поляки в свой язык намешали слов латинских, которые тоже и простые люди по привычке употребляют, так же и Русь в свой язык намешали слов польских и оные употребляют»

His Eminence said that the Poles had inculcated Polish words into local Rusian language.

---
Karevin also cites Albert Campense (Кампензе), a Papal ambassador to Moscow, who had been to Lithuanian Rus' (modern Ukraine) and Moscow Rus' (Russia) during 1523-1524; Campense wrote to Rome that people from the both parts of Rus' considered to be the one people since they spoke the one language and confessed the one faith.  


U-word removed - MK
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« Reply #137 on: June 02, 2012, 05:55:08 AM »

Mikola Antoniewicz



A Ukrainian rusophile from Lemberg (Lviv), who wrote about the creation of Ukrainian language in Austrian Empire:

Не припускаю, даби чоловек просвещенный мôг бути так наивным и в то верити, чтоби сама сельська стріха була в состояніи доставити стôлько слов и фраз, чтоби наречие переменити в образований книжный языкъ

Translation: I don't understand how an educated man could be so naive to believe that a rural dialect could provide so many words and phrases in order to convert itself into a literary language. (see)

In the days of WW1, Antoniewicz was imprisoned into Talerhof concentration camp:

"Austro-Hungarian authorities imprisoned Ukrainian Russophiles, as well as other Ukrainians and Lemkos from Galicia and Bukovina. They were punished for their loyalty to the Russian language and culture, the people who had renounced the Russian language and identified themselves as Ukrainians they were released from the camp" Wikipedia


Talerhof, a camp of the Death



Executed in Talerhof Ukrainian priests
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« Reply #138 on: June 02, 2012, 06:12:41 AM »

There is a legend about Mankurt.

A man "...who defends his homeland from invasion. He is captured, tortured, and brainwashed into serving his homeland's conquerors. He is so completely turned that he kills his mother when she attempts to rescue him from captivity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankurt

Now we know, how the Ukrainian Mankurts have appeared.
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« Reply #139 on: June 02, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »

Toje vsio miełob sens kolib ukraińska mova vyvodyłasia z Lvivščyny, a ne z Połtavščyny (odkul vona vyvodytsia nasamreč).
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« Reply #140 on: June 02, 2012, 09:07:08 AM »

There is a legend about Mankurt.

A man "...who defends his homeland from invasion. He is captured, tortured, and brainwashed into serving his homeland's conquerors. He is so completely turned that he kills his mother when she attempts to rescue him from captivity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankurt

Now we know, how the Ukrainian Mankurts have appeared.
Yes, the Russian extremists.
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« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2012, 05:56:22 AM »

Guess it's common for some linguistialists (a self-created word) to say that Ukrainian and Belarusian is distorted Russian, which is distorted Old Church Slavonic, from which came also distorted languages like Macedonian and it's distorted form, Bulgarian.

Podlachian and Ruthenian on the other hand is distorted Polish, which is distorted Czech, Slovak is distorted Czech also, and Czech is distorted Moravian, which is distorted Sorbian, a form of distorted Serbian, and Serbian is distorted Croatian, which is distorted Serbo-Croatian... In the end the only "clean" language seems to be Slovenian, though one might argue that it's infected by German, although less than, for example, Silesian.

Dirty Slavs.
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« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2012, 08:09:24 AM »

An answer for this Νεκτάριος's post

Possession: Ukrainian pretty much always uses the verb to have (мати).  If you use this structure in Russian for concrete objects it can carry a bit of a vulgar meaning.  Its use is restricted to abstract concepts.  Russian uses this structure "at me there is X".   If a Ukrainian were to hop over to Moscow and say "Я маю пса" (I have a dog) he'd get some strange looks.  

You are wrong and too subjective. We also say: "Я имею собаку/дом/семью/усадьбу".
But in our days, it is more official style than a usual language; I’d say it is spoken language of the 19th century, there among noble families. Either intelligentsia or nerds would use this in their usual language in our days.
Moreover, the words “иметь, поиметь" –got a little different meaning there in vulgar slang, which does mean "to have sex with somebody" (I guess it appeared about 30 years ago). Thus: “Я имею собаку” does mean there in gangster slang: “I’m having sex with a dog [right now]”, on the other hand it still does mean: “I have a dog” there in literary language.
Nerds, gangsters and intelligentsia use this word in different ways, but it is still in use.  


Quote
Negation:  Like pretty much every other Slavic language Ukrainian uses нема to negate the existence of something.  Russian uses нет.  

Motion: Ukrainian uses до + genitive, Russian uses в / на + accusative

Obligation: Ukrainian uses мати + infinitive.  There is no analogous structure in Russian.  

Genitive of masculine singular: Ukrainian maintains the a / у distinction.  In common usage Russian has this in a grand total of one word: чаю (tea).

These are just a few examples of grammatical (i.e non-lexical differences) between Ukrainian and Russian.  Interestingly enough Ukrainian shares all of the above mentioned features with neighboring West Slavic languages, i.e Polish and Slovak.  BTW, all of these features also exist in Balachka (the easternmost of the Ukrainian dialects - way beyond the influence of the Rzeczpospolita).  The dialects used in the standardization of the language were in fact all outside of former Polish territory.  
 
What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?
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« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2012, 08:31:41 AM »

Thus: “Я имею собаку” does mean there in gangster slang: “I’m having sex with a dog [right now]”
You have a lot of use for this sentence?
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« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2012, 08:52:19 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".
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« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2012, 10:21:25 PM »

What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?

I gave examples of the structures I was speaking about.  If you want more simply use yandex.ua. 
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« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2012, 11:59:50 PM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences. 
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« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2012, 12:00:41 AM »

Motion: Ukrainian uses до + genitive, Russian uses в / на + accusative

Ukrainian: Іти до магазину
Russian: Идти в магазин

But the Russians also say: "схожу до магазина, схожу до пацанов" etc., though it is a vulgar language. The phrase "схожу до магазину" will be either very ironical or very vulgar, dipending on a context (speech of a yokel or an intellectual).

What about some examples, s'il vous plaît?

I gave examples of the structures I was speaking about.  If you want more simply use yandex.ua.  

You didn't give examples for the majority of your claims.
Ok, it's your problem.
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« Reply #148 on: August 07, 2012, 12:04:49 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.
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« Reply #149 on: August 07, 2012, 12:42:55 AM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences.  

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

American, British and Australian English differ in grammar, lexicon and phonetics, but they are dialects of the one language. Why?
The Germans don't understand each other, why they speak the one language? The Brits don't understand each other, why they speak the one language?
Mexican Spanish differs from Madrid Spanish even in the syntax, but they still are considered to be some dialects of the one Spanish language.

Ukrainian and Russian are more close to each other than the mentioned examples. And only the politicians divide them into different languages.
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« Reply #150 on: August 07, 2012, 01:19:07 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it that someone living in Kyrgyzstan thinks he knows everything about Ukraine and Moscow?

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« Reply #151 on: August 07, 2012, 01:19:44 AM »

I know this might anger someone but, out of my own ignorance, I always thought that the Ukrainian language WAS the Ukrainian dialect of the Russian language. That was, until I discovered the differences. 

I am pleased to hear you are no longer ignorant on the matter.  Cheesy
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« Reply #152 on: August 07, 2012, 01:29:06 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

Thanks.  Wink

Actually I don't understand why an American (Νεκτάριος) pretends to be a faultless specialist in both Ukrainian and Moscovite dialects of the Russian language.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Why is it that someone living in Kyrgyzstan thinks he knows everything about Ukraine and Moscow?



I live in Southern Semirechye, i.e. a land which was colonised by Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and Germans. Moreover this land used to be the one country with Ukraine 20 years ago (de facto it is still the one country).
Those who live in California know more about New York and Alabama (regions of the one country), than know those who live in Ganduras.
In addition pure Russian language is my mother tongue, and I understand it - with all its dialects - better than you or other aliens. And I have Ukrainian relatives either.

BTW Ukraine and Southern Semirechye share the mutual Commonwealth and free market.
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« Reply #153 on: August 07, 2012, 01:49:02 AM »

Just want to add that Ukrainians won't say "я маю собаку", there's no such "i have X" construction in Ukrainian in this matter. The proper would be "at me there is X", so it'll be "у/в мене є собака".

You run across both forms.  If you search around the internet there a bit of controversy about which form is correct.  

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.  Related languages, dialect continuum, etc.  Nobody is contesting the fact that knowing a neighboring language (i.e. Polish, Slovak, Ruthenian, Belarusian, Russian, etc) means that it is very easy to develop a passive understanding of Ukrainian.      

I'm with Liza in the sense that I simply don't understand why so many Russian Chauvinists are obsessed with Ukrainian and trying disparage it.  Russian is a beautiful and wonderful language; I don't see how the very existence of Ukrainian threatens that.
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« Reply #154 on: August 07, 2012, 01:54:10 AM »

Those who live in California know more about New York and Alabama (regions of the one country), than know those who live in Ganduras.

You'd be surprised.  I know California fairly well.  I have some idea of New York due to the fact that it is constantly in the news, is often the subject of film, literature, art etc.  I don't really have the slightest clue about Alabama or the rest of the South.  They have their own culture and traditions which are a bit different than the rest of the US.  Even more so for the former USSR, which has far greater geographical and linguistic diversity than the US. 
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« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2012, 02:14:44 AM »

Why is this dumb thread still be posted in?

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history and their own national interests and their own need for a vehicle to express these things and many other things that are distinct on some level from the same aspects of surrounding cultures. There are phonetic, syntactic, lexical, and other differences between Ukrainian and standard Russian, but as a disinterested linguist the only thing I can go by is mutual intelligibility. I would not be surprised if the newer generation of Ukrainians, or at least some of them, professed to not be able to understand Russian. After all, they would not have had it shoved down their throats as their parents and grandparents did in the Soviet times. Why is this such a problem?

The idea that they should be considered the same language may have some traction, but it also may be subordinated to political or other social concerns. If a person from Montenegro can speak "Montenegrin" (but only since October 2007), and an Afghan and a Persian can embrace their different language standards (Dari/Afghan Persian for the Afghan, and Farsi for the Persian), then surely a Russian chauvinist can let Ukrainians have their own language even if he thinks it's just funny sounding Russian. I wouldn't even deny the OP the right to continue to think that, of course -- in fact, that's what it sounds like to me (sorry, Ukrainians). The difference between Vladik and me, however, is that I recognize that this is because I learned Russian before being exposed to Ukrainian, so of course I'd think that. That doesn't really make Ukrainian some kind of perverted Russian, though. If anything, that's a testament to the political and social domination of the Russian people within that sphere of influence and how it impacts language learning (there are probably many times more Russian language and Russian history programs in American universities than there are Ukrainian ones, and those Russian programs are likely to treat Ukrainians and Belarusians as an afterthought). So to decry political influences in language taxonomies rings a little hollow when you, a proud Russian speaker, benefit from those same political influences. Did you ever stop to think how it would be if the capital of the empire had stayed at Kiev and the Muscovites were the ones speaking all that funny talk?

There is absolutely no advantage of having Ukrainian declared a "Russian dialect", by the way. Even if you had the power to do so, it would do nothing but tick off a bunch of people who have already rejected your cultural and linguistic dominance. The nationalistic feelings that give birth to such distinctions (or, rather, that exploit preexisting distinctions in speech forms) exist before the standardization schemes that create an "official language" in the first place. To say that "x people speak this language" you have to recognize x people as a legitimate socio-cultural unit in the first place, and for most of the world that process is legitimized through having their own language. Or don't you remember the Moldavian/Romanian distinction that your internationalist heroes the Soviets did nothing to discourage. Apparently they, like the Ukrainians, were legitimate enough to be divided into a constituent republic, so what's the problem? Now that they are their own state, they can't name their language whatever they want? That's essentially the position you're putting the Ukrainians in vis-a-vis Russian, Vladik...but something tells me you don't care so much about that parallel situation since it has zero impact on Russian cultural chauvinism, which is what this thread is really about (and almost a textbook example of).
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« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2012, 04:12:46 AM »

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

It is very strange to hear this. Russia and Ukraine used to be the one country (Ruthenia) from 882 A.D. up to the 12th century when Ruthenia broke down into a Confederation of 13 independent Principalities. This soft Confederation collapsed under the Mongolian invasion in the 13th century (thus 4 centuries together!).
Then Moscow gathered the good half of the mentioned Principalities under the Moscovite throne, and the rest (modern Ukraine and Belarus) were captured by Poland, where there Ukrainians were treated as subhumans. Ukrainians started a war for independence and asked Moscow to help them. That's why Ukrainians entered into Union with Russia in 1654, the rest of Ukraine joined in 1793. Thus Ukraine and Russia were the one country again, up to 1917 (263 years).
In 1918 Ukraine became independent up to 1922, when she created a new Union with Russia and Belarus, this lasted up to 1991 (69 years).

Thus Russia and Ukraine have at least 732 years of the common history, as the one State.
How old is the USA? Something like 300 years?
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« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2012, 04:49:12 AM »

Vladik, by no means take this as an attack on your person, I am arguing only with your statements, if you'll feel offended, I am sorry, didn't mean to.

That's why Ukrainians entered into Union with Russia in 1654, the rest of Ukraine joined in 1793. Thus Ukraine and Russia were the one country again, up to 1917 (263 years).
In 1918 Ukraine became independent up to 1922, when she created a new Union with Russia and Belarus, this lasted up to 1991 (69 years).

Thus Russia and Ukraine have at least 732 years of the common history, as the one State.
How old is the USA? Something like 300 years?

I suppose that is why the Cossack Sich was eliminated by Catherine II, that's why Ukrainians fought for liberating Ukraine from Russia in XIX and XX century, and so forth. Don't ask me, I'm Pole. Ask Ukrainians what do they think about this so called "Ukrainian independence" under Tsar's rule.

And I like the "the rest of Ukraine was joined in 1793" Smiley. For those unfamiliar with the subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Partition_of_Poland

Oh, and there was no such thing as Russia or Ukraine in the medieval times. It's like saying that France as a country has a history dating from 51 BC.
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« Reply #158 on: August 07, 2012, 09:38:44 AM »

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.

Same for me.

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Russian is a beautiful and wonderful language.

No, it's not. Too sophisticated.

and the rest (modern Ukraine and Belarus) were captured by Poland

By GDL.
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« Reply #159 on: August 07, 2012, 02:46:57 PM »

Thank you, Michals, for dealing with Vladik's silly reply so that I don't have to. Grin

Vladik: The USA is not the issue here. And neither is however many years you can find Ukrainians and Russians having shared history. Many countries have long histories of relations (including shifts in dominance in the relationship), but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people. Quit being silly.
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« Reply #160 on: August 07, 2012, 10:37:31 PM »

Thank you, Michals, for dealing with Vladik's silly reply so that I don't have to. Grin

Vladik: The USA is not the issue here. And neither is however many years you can find Ukrainians and Russians having shared history. Many countries have long histories of relations (including shifts in dominance in the relationship), but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people. Quit being silly.

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.

You said: 

The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

I showed you why you are wrong. Ukraine and Russia have 732 years of the common history. Your initial argument failed.

but that doesn't make them the same country or the same people.

Russians and Ukrainians (Руськие [Russians] how they called themselves) were initialy the one people of Ruthenia. Then they were devided but there always was a yearning for the reunification among them.
Those who don't know history or refute the facts are silly. Stop insulting me, or I'll start doing the same.
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« Reply #161 on: August 07, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.

What's that? More nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Not surprising.

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The Ukrainians have their own language because they have their own history

I showed you why you are wrong. Ukraine and Russia have 732 years of the common history. Your initial argument failed.

See Pan Michal's reply to your post for a refutation of your idea that this somehow makes Ukrainians and Russians the same people. He expressed it much better than I could.

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Russians and Ukrainians (Руськие [Russians] how they called themselves) were initialy the one people of Ruthenia. Then they were devided but there always was a yearning for the reunification among them.


Well then I guess they really screwed things up by voting +90% for Ukraine's independence on December 1, 1991. Whoops.

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Those who don't know history or refute the facts are silly.


Those who manipulate history in order to keep alive their dream of Russian hegemony over people who have clearly and quite successfully rejected it are more sad than silly. You are sad, sad man.

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Stop insulting me, or I'll start doing the same.


I'm pretty sure you opened your reply with an undeserved and bizarrely irrelevant insult toward me, but I will not repay you in kind. In accordance with your belief that being called "silly" is a grave insult of some kind, I will refer to you from here on out as a sad individual.
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« Reply #162 on: August 08, 2012, 12:33:59 AM »

Vladik, by no means take this as an attack on your person, I am arguing only with your statements, if you'll feel offended, I am sorry, didn't mean to.

It's ok.  Wink I wish the rest of members here were like you.
But we are talking about the language and linguistic issueshere, though we can open a new topic to cross our swords there and avoid an offtopic here.  Wink

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I suppose that is why the Cossack Sich was eliminated by Catherine II

Earlier I had opened a topic about such myths: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46134.0.html (it's located in a privite forum, where you probably have no eccess yet).

I'll cite a bit from there:

The [Zaporozhian] outposts were just moved to a new border (modern Kuban), which is next to Caucasus. Considering, the Cossacks were soldiers it's ok for soldiers to change their dislocation.  
And simple Cossacks were predimenantly happy because they got an excuse to get rid of their "Oligarchs", who had been exploiting them as servants (they were soldiers, not serfs).
But the "Oligarchs" didn't want to comply with the military duty and oath of allegiance. That's why some of them were punished (e.g. Pan Kalnishewsky, who was exiled to live in a monastery).
And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).


And FYI, Russians also fought against Tsarina Catherine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev's_Rebellion  
Yes, Ukrainians and Russians didn't like the Government. So what?

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that's why Ukrainians fought for liberating Ukraine from Russia in XIX and XX century

I don't understand about the 19 th century, probably you mean some Polish uprisings, which no doubt weren't Ukrainian.
As for the 20th century, a Nazi criminal Bandera (who was born and  brainwashed  in Austria) fought against Ukrainians either (his people were trained in German Abwehr e.i. German military intelligence).

From the mentioned topic (Bandera's crimes):

"Moskali (a derogatory term for Russians), Poles, Jews are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia"... ... "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated"... "Destroy their leaders." In late 1942, some Ukrainian nationalist groups were involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Volhynia, and in early 1944, these campaigns began to include Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that over 40,000 Poles killed during spring and summer of 1943 campaign in Volhynia. by certain Ukrainian groups including the OUN-Bandera which bears primary responsibility for the massacres.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Views_towards_other_ethnic_groups

The Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia ... were part of an ethnic cleansing operation carried out by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) North in the Nazi-occupied regions of Volhynia (Reichskommissariat Ukraine) and UPA-South in Eastern Galicia (General Government) beginning in March 1943 and lasting until the end of 1944. The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age. Despite this, most of the victims were women and children. The actions of the UPA resulted in 40,000-60,000 Polish civilian casualties in Volhynia, and from 25,000 to 30,000-40,000 in Eastern Galicia. ... The killings were directly linked with the policies of the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

"Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jewish assimilation is not possible." Later in June Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he indicated - "We are creating a militia which would help to get remove the Jews and protect the population." Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of ""Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry. In 1941-1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions".
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia



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Ask Ukrainians what do they think about this so called "Ukrainian independence" under Tsar's rule.

Ask them what they think about the current Ukrainian independence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekS-YOuUBzk

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And I like the "the rest of Ukraine was joined in 1793" Smiley. For those unfamiliar with the subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Partition_of_Poland

So what? The Ukrainian lands, which were occupied by Poles, were freed from Poles. Of course you don't like it.  

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there was no such thing as Russia or Ukraine in the medieval times

Yes, a concept of Ukraine apeared in 19th century by Austrians, but I meant the territory and people in the borders of modern Russia and Ukraine.  
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« Reply #163 on: August 08, 2012, 01:25:36 AM »

As all Monophisites, you are strange when rationalism does matter.
What's that? More nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Not surprising.

It's a reply to your insult, which you started calling me "silly".

See Pan Michal's reply to your post for a refutation of your idea that this somehow makes Ukrainians and Russians the same people. He expressed it much better than I could.

If Pan Michal would say that Russians eat each other and move with heads over heels, you'd believe him with a great joice, since you are a prejudiced one. Wink

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Well then I guess they really screwed things up by voting +90% for Ukraine's independence on December 1, 1991. Whoops.

77.8% Soviets voted to save the SU, including Ukrainians on March 17, 1991
As for the referendum hold on December 1, 1991 - it took place after the State Committee on the State of Emergency's coup (20 August, 1991) , which de facto destroyed the Union.
In addition a lot of Ukrainians considered that referendum to be a confirmation of Ukrainian independence within the SU (according to the Soviet constitution Ukraine was an independent State). And in our days the majority of Ukrainians regret it, and consider themselves to be fooled.

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I'm pretty sure you opened your reply with an undeserved and bizarrely irrelevant insult toward me, but I will not repay you in kind. In accordance with your belief that being called "silly" is a grave insult of some kind, I will refer to you from here on out as a sad individual.

I'm sorry, but It's you who insulted me first. In our culture it's all the same to say: "you are stupid" or "you are silly".

P.S.
Let's avoid offtopics.
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« Reply #164 on: August 08, 2012, 01:53:34 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
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 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   
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« Reply #165 on: August 08, 2012, 02:26:59 AM »

It's a reply to your insult, which you started calling me "silly".


Are you being serious right now? Huh

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If Pan Michal would say that Russians eat each other and move with heads over heels, you'd believe him with a great joice, since you are a prejudiced one. Wink

What news! I spend 6-7 years of my life learning Russian, only to find out I hate Russians. I wonder if any of my Russian friends know this yet... Grin

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77.8% Soviets voted to save the SU, including Ukrainians on March 17, 1991
As for the referendum hold on December 1, 1991 - it took place after the State Committee on the State of Emergency's coup (20 August, 1991) , which de facto destroyed the Union.
In addition a lot of Ukrainians considered that referendum to be a confirmation of Ukrainian independence within the SU (according to the Soviet constitution Ukraine was an independent State). And in our days the majority of Ukrainians regret it, and consider themselves to be fooled.

Yes, I am well aware. But I also remember seeing news footage from around that time with interviews of people from various republics (I'm not sure if there were any of Ukrainians; I remember one Uzbek and one Kyrgyz and some others) who were also in favor of SU, but for mostly economic reasons, which is something a bit different than your "yearning". Recognizing economic benefits of a union is not the same as claiming, as you do, that Russians and Ukrainians are the same. I don't think anyone here is denying that they are similar and speak very similar languages (like I wrote earlier, Ukrainian sounds pretty much like Russian to me; I don't have much trouble understanding spoken Ukrainian). But this does not make Ukrainians and Russians the same. Even if they have X years together with Russians, that they have developed their own culture (whether it is from the 17th century or whatever) is not really debatable. And, likewise, the political realities of language use and codification/standardization are important, not some sort of "extra" or unrelated thing to be disparaged because you don't want to recognize them. It was political and social influences that led to the codification of Russian around the Muscovite standard, was it not? Like I wrote before, things could have gone the other way, and the Muscovites could be the ones who would be speaking "funny Russian", or even (боже упаси!) "funny Ukrainian". For you to ignore the social reality of language and persist in saying "Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian" is very foolish. Either you are unaware of the existence of dialect continua (which explain why neighboring languages are much more similar than more geographically distant languages), or you don't see the irony in decrying "politicians" who have split up one unified people while simultaneously declaring that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian...either way, it is hard to take you seriously sometimes, Vladik.

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I'm sorry, but It's you who insulted me first. In our culture it's all the same to say: "you are stupid" or "you are silly".

Now you want to make me a Russian, too? Who's this "we"? You've got a мышь in your pocket? In English, which is the language we are communicating in in this thread, "silly" is a far more polite and inoffensive thing to call people than "stupid" or any of the other things I could have written. I am sorry that you took it as an insult, but it is not one, nor was it intended as one. It's not really same as глупый; it's more like смешной or something like that. Absurd, ridiculous, comical.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:27:18 AM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #166 on: August 08, 2012, 03:18:17 AM »

It's not really same as глупый; it's more like смешной or something like that. Absurd, ridiculous, comical.

In that case, I'm sincerely sorry.
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« Reply #167 on: August 08, 2012, 03:20:53 AM »

It's okay. I apologize as well for not taking this into account when writing my earlier reply. I should have known better.
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« Reply #168 on: August 08, 2012, 03:28:04 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
[/color]

 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

For instance the head of Dnepropetrovsk region opened the Center of Russian culture there in Dnepropetrovsk:

«В нашем регионе с уважением относятся к русскому языку и культуре. Открытие культурного центра в Днепропетровске дает новые возможности для эффективного сотрудничества с Россией и дополнительные импульсы для взаимного развития»,— отметил Александр Вилкул.

The Center will popularize Russian language and culture. See: http://dneprovka.dp.ua/t11426/


It's okay. I apologize as well for not taking this into account when writing my earlier reply. I should have known better.

 Wink
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« Reply #169 on: August 08, 2012, 04:03:18 AM »

And FYI the Zaporozhian Sech is modern Dnepropetrovsk (a Rusophile region there is in modern Ukraine).
[/color]

 Cheesy  You've never even been here yet are certain Dnepr is "russophile".   

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

For instance the head of Dnepropetrovsk region opened the Center of Russian culture there in Dnepropetrovsk:

«В нашем регионе с уважением относятся к русскому языку и культуре. Открытие культурного центра в Днепропетровске дает новые возможности для эффективного сотрудничества с Россией и дополнительные импульсы для взаимного развития»,— отметил Александр Вилкул.

The Center will popularize Russian language and culture. See: http://dneprovka.dp.ua/t11426/

It is a tricky issue as many assumptions turn out to be incorrect. 

The big industrial cities of Dnipropetrovshchyna are russophone (more or less standard Russian with a light Ukrainian accent): Dnipropetrovsk, Dniprodzerzhynsk and Crooked Horn.  Outside of those cities you'll mostly encounter the local dialect of Ukrainian.  Even in the big cities you'll meet this Ukrainian in the local markets.   

What all of this means in real life is that people here generally respect both languages and cultures.  The extremist positions that are more typical of L'viv or Odessa (or mini-Greece, ahem Kyiv) are incredibly rare here.  In my experience the overwhelming majority of Russophones and lovers or Russian culture are patriotic Ukrainians who love the independence of Ukraine.  Even in Dnipropetrovsk most of the schools are Ukrainian medium, and there is no real protest about that.  It is a very live and let live atmosphere. 

None of this translates into nostalgia for the USSR, support for uniting with Russia or any love for the Kremlin like you seem to have implied earlier.           
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« Reply #170 on: August 08, 2012, 04:48:54 AM »

My impression is that in Kryvyi Rih, there is a lot more Ukrainian spoken than in the rest of Eastern Ukraine. There is some nostalgia for the USSR, but no sympathy for reunification with Russia.
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« Reply #171 on: August 08, 2012, 05:12:05 PM »

Vladik, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about those offtop subject Smiley. It'd be nice to hear how "the second side" views this. I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones. And we all know, that we have at least two Ukraines today, sadly. If you feel like this, that is. We could open a new thread and start from the beginning, because here it's so tangled, that I barely can find statement-reply chain.
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« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2012, 06:37:09 AM »

Vladik, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about those offtop subject Smiley.

OK. You may open a new topic and give me a link.
It could be carried out there is in Politics (a private forum here), but as for me I don't like that section because there is no any moderation (everybody trolls, offtopics and ad hominem arguments, in a word that is a hell on earth for an intellectual discussion). That's why I didn't open it by myself. Though, maybe we could find another section or even another massageboard. Wink

Quote
I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones.

Actually that's the Galician (West-Ukraine) point of view. Central Ukrainian and South-East ones are exremely different in their opinions about Russia.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:38:52 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2012, 06:52:12 AM »

The big industrial cities of Dnipropetrovshchyna are russophone (more or less standard Russian with a light Ukrainian accent): Dnipropetrovsk, Dniprodzerzhynsk and Crooked Horn.  Outside of those cities you'll mostly encounter the local dialect of Ukrainian.  Even in the big cities you'll meet this Ukrainian in the local markets.    

What all of this means in real life is that people here generally respect both languages and cultures.  The extremist positions that are more typical of L'viv or Odessa (or mini-Greece, ahem Kyiv) are incredibly rare here.  In my experience the overwhelming majority of Russophones and lovers or Russian culture are patriotic Ukrainians who love the independence of Ukraine.  Even in Dnipropetrovsk most of the schools are Ukrainian medium, and there is no real protest about that.  It is a very live and let live atmosphere.

Congratualtions, you simply repeated my words:

How do you understand the word "russophile"? In my opinion it does mean "those who love Russia". Does Dnepr hate Russia?
No, they don't hate Russian culture, they use Russian language and consider Russia to be their friend. At the same time they cherish their culture and dialect (who would doubt it?).

It seems you never read my posts *palmface*

---

None of this translates into nostalgia for the USSR, support for uniting with Russia or any love for the Kremlin like you seem to have implied earlier.      
   

1. Nostalgia for the USSR is "Sovietophilia", and there are a lot of Sovietophiles.
2. Nobody loves modern Kremlin, even the Russians, even me. Please don't confuse Russian people and Kremlin.
3. Re-unifications differ: it could be a Union like the EU, it could be a Confederation, it could be a Unitary State (as for me, I don't want a Unitary State with Ukraine).
I prefer a Union like the EU (first of all economical and military Union), with maintenance and keeping of Ukrainian Statehood, Independence, culture and dialect. And the majority of Ukrainians would support such an opinion.
4. Russia and Belarus (White Russia) are the Union State already  Tongue
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:55:20 AM by Vladik » Logged
Pan Michał
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« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2012, 07:51:00 AM »

PM sent, waiting for a reply.

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I know only Polish and Ukrainian ones.

Actually that's the Galician (West-Ukraine) point of view. Central Ukrainian and South-East ones are exremely different in their opinions about Russia.

Actually, most of West Ukraine is anti Russian, most of central Ukraine is mixed leaning to neutral, and most of Eastern Ukraine is pro Russian. By knowing people from most of those sides I can say that they'd confirm.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 08:08:16 AM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2012, 11:58:43 AM »

Let's stop posting about Politics or I'm going to lock it.
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« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2012, 12:00:51 PM »

Let's stop posting about Politics or I'm going to lock it.

EOT from my side.
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« Reply #177 on: August 10, 2012, 02:00:32 AM »

I understand Ukrainian Wikipedia, Ukrainian websites etc., without any dictionary and via only my knowledge of the Russian. Why it is a foreighn language, out of the blue?

I can read an article in Slovak and understand it without a dictionary.  Related languages, dialect continuum, etc.  Nobody is contesting the fact that knowing a neighboring language (i.e. Polish, Slovak, Ruthenian, Belarusian, Russian, etc) means that it is very easy to develop a passive understanding of Ukrainian.      

I can't read an article in Slovakian. If the best happened I can understand only 30% of a Slovakian text or something like this.
Bulgarian and Serbian are more understandable, but still I can understand 99% Ukrainian and Belarusian texts only, there among Slavic languages.  
As for the Belarusian, it is even more close to the Russian, since there were no Austrian intrigues. Wink

P.S. The city of Uzhgorod was a part of Slaviakia up to 1945, when it was joint to Ukraine. I bet modern Ukrainian Nazis do their best to substitute all Moscovite-like lexicon and grammar for something from Uzhgorod/Lviv and so on, there in artificial academical Ukrainian, which is taught there in schoolsuniversities.


 "Украінскіе нацысты" - гэты тэрмін недапушчальны ў публічнай частцы форума. Раю перанесціся ў сэкцыю "Палітыка".

Сем дзён папярэджання - МК.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 02:02:41 AM by Vladik » Logged
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