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Author Topic: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons  (Read 14784 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #495 on: June 05, 2012, 12:35:13 AM »

Quote from: Maria
There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

Yeah, I seriously doubt there are any real Western Rite parishes that are doing that. Probably some "Old Catholics" with an ordination through a 18th century French priest's cat who once met an Egyptian on vacation.
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« Reply #496 on: June 05, 2012, 12:37:59 AM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.
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« Reply #497 on: June 05, 2012, 12:47:38 AM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.
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« Reply #498 on: June 05, 2012, 02:24:45 AM »

I have no idea what an MJ church is, or whether that penance was correct. If this happened under a bishop participating in ecumenical events, a recourse to that bishop might have resulted in lifting the penance.

But anyway, the reaction of the believers should be humility, rather than schism.


As for the feelings in Germany, I can speak only about my own parish, where we feel this to be a vicious attack of Old Calendarists and anti-ecumenists on our canonical Church. The Greek Old Calendarists have not been very successful in Germany so far, so maybe that is their new strategy.
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« Reply #499 on: June 05, 2012, 04:51:29 AM »

As for the feelings in Germany, I can speak only about my own parish, where we feel this to be a vicious attack of Old Calendarists and anti-ecumenists on our canonical Church. The Greek Old Calendarists have not been very successful in Germany so far, so maybe that is their new strategy.

I don't understand where there is a vicious attack. The metropolitan was photographed in such attitude, the pic was put on the Internet, people were suprised. It is not very fair to play the role of the victim as if he was not responsible for his acts... I also think there is a sort of paranoïa because the critics came from anti-ecumenistic new calendarists from Greece from the blog Aktines for instance. Without them, old calendarists for sure would have never noticed the event.

I don't know German but are there German sites run by old calendarists commenting the event? If no, there is no attack from old calendarists and referring to such attacks may be a way to hide the fact that world orthodoxy is in fact deeply divided between modernist, anitmodernist, ecumenists, antiecumenists and so on... The one fighting with the others... but it is easier to denounce a hypothetical plot from vicious old calendarists.
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« Reply #500 on: June 05, 2012, 06:04:22 AM »

There are mostly Greek sites attacking.

Of course the attack is vicious, because if people were only "surprised", they would ask questions. What many do instead is to call for deposition, excommunication, even speculate he might go to hell. It simply hs gone too far. This is everything but constructive criticism.

May our Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #501 on: June 05, 2012, 09:25:04 AM »

There are mostly Greek sites attacking.

Of course the attack is vicious, because if people were only "surprised", they would ask questions. What many do instead is to call for deposition, excommunication, even speculate he might go to hell. It simply hs gone too far. This is everything but constructive criticism.
Exactly like the lynch mob I've been fighting on this thread.
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« Reply #502 on: June 05, 2012, 09:38:13 AM »

For me, calling for deposition is not lynch mob because any orthodox can introduce a trial against a bishop... But speculating about who's going to hell is not good at all. The problem is that ecumenical excesses generates also other excesses. So ecumenist bishops are not so innocent. Moreover, according to what Gorazd was saying the German document was already warning against performing ecumenical acts with water... So what on earth did Metropolitan Augustine have in mind?

I also think that he should speak to explain things and appease spirits or try. It is a very classic situation of crisis management when the crisis is caused by the news someone did something did something he was not supposed to do, for example as we learnt that such charity was involved in stealing money from donors for use of his president. In such context, you must speak and cannot stay silent because things get worse. But for a reason I ignore, in orthodoxy, such crisis are very poorly managed with long silences while today the news spread very quickly.
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« Reply #503 on: June 05, 2012, 10:50:06 AM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

By claiming that "'American Western-Rite Orthodox' churches have married bishops," you have in essence accused Western-rite Orthodox churches that are currently in ROCOR and the Antiochian Archdiocese of grave violations of Orthodox Canons. Please document and justify your accusation or retract it within 72 hours. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #504 on: June 05, 2012, 11:00:40 AM »

Regardless, as long as HOTCA doesn't have issues with Jesus being called Yeshua.

Why would that be an issue? Huh
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« Reply #505 on: June 05, 2012, 11:02:41 AM »

The "interfaith marriage" that you say I have, is actually wrong.  My wife has agreed to be of my faith, which I consider Eastern Orthodox, which you call syncretic.

Hi yeshuaisiam. I'm wondering, since your wife has joined in being Eastern Orthodox, does she not worship with the Anabaptists either? Do you both just go there to fellowship?
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« Reply #506 on: June 05, 2012, 11:04:43 AM »

Quote
When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism
I would ask you to prove it, but since you conveniently ignored such requests in the past.......


PP
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« Reply #507 on: June 05, 2012, 11:06:45 AM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

By claiming that "'American Western-Rite Orthodox' churches have married bishops," you have in essence accused Western-rite Orthodox churches that are currently in ROCOR and the Antiochian Archdiocese of grave violations of Orthodox Canons. Please document and justify your accusation or retract it within 72 hours. Thanks, Second Chance

I disagree; she says "When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches."

She seems to be talking about the "exotic" American Western Rite Orthodox. ROCOR and the Antiochans are not the only one to have western rite parishes in the US. "Many of" does not mean "all". If she had said "all", this would have included ROCOR and Antiochian wester rite parishes.
 
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« Reply #508 on: June 05, 2012, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote
She seems to be talking about the "exotic" American Western Rite Orthodox. ROCOR and the Antiochans are not the only one to have western rite parishes in the US. "Many of" does not mean "all". If she had said "all", this would have included ROCOR and Antiochian wester rite parishes
The reverse can be said as well, that by her saying "many" she means exactly what she said. Especially since "many" WR bishops are ROCOR or AOANA.

PP
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« Reply #509 on: June 05, 2012, 11:13:41 AM »

I do not see how any canonical church could trace succession from Ofesh. These wouild have to have been admitted at a later time with proper succession established. The story pf Ofesh:  


In October 1932 Archbishop Aftimios Ofeish was invited to come to St. Mary’s to settle a dispute in the parish about the transfer of Father Constantine. After Father Constantine left in November, there was no priest for the coming Great Feast of Christmas. Archbishop Aftimios served the parish from November 1932 until February 1933, starting the choir and Sunday School. The Archbishop, who had served as Bishop of Brooklyn from 1917 on, under the Russian Patriarchate, attempted to start an American Orthodox Church in the late 1920’s, along with Metropolitan Platon, a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church. After its founding, when support was withdrawn, the American Orthodox Church became uncanonical. Archbishop Aftimios, who had met a young woman of St Mary’s during his stay in Wilkes-Barre, married this parishioner, Mariam Namey, in April 1933, and he was then retired. He lived in Kingston, Pennsylvania, where he died in 1966, and is buried in the Maple Hill Cemetery across from St. Mary’s Orthodox Cemetery


http://www.stmaryorthodox.com/history

The rumor mongers will probably say he is buried in consecrated ground.    Roll Eyes
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« Reply #510 on: June 05, 2012, 11:14:45 AM »

FWIW, when I read Maria's comment, I thought it referred to the various vagante churches and not to the canonical churches that have a Western rite in the US.
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« Reply #511 on: June 05, 2012, 11:42:30 AM »

FWIW, when I read Maria's comment, I thought it referred to the various vagante churches and not to the canonical churches that have a Western rite in the US.

That's my interpretation as well.
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« Reply #512 on: June 05, 2012, 05:06:28 PM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

What does this idiocy have to do with ecumenism? You're making way too big a definition here so that you cannot wield it and be taken seriously.
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« Reply #513 on: June 05, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »

People understand that I have no idea who Maria is.  But apparently she has been to ecumenical Vespers, and HATES it.

I have been to WCC events, and I tell you that they are wicked, evil, and wrong.  Completely unorthodox.  Here you have two people, experienced in witnessing ecumenism first hand who are avidly against ecumenism.

Two, huh? I sense a this-town-isn't-big-enough-for-the-both-of-us thing coming.

(Kidding. I actually don't find the existence of two such people shocking at all.)
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« Reply #514 on: June 05, 2012, 07:35:09 PM »

Second Chance and PtA, please see my PM. I will respond publicly once you approve the appropriate part of my PM.

This is so confusing.

~~~~~

FWIW, when I read Maria's comment, I thought it referred to the various vagante churches and not to the canonical churches that have a Western rite in the US.

That's my interpretation as well.

Thanks for reading my post correctly.
That was my intended message. And you got it.
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« Reply #515 on: June 05, 2012, 08:08:55 PM »

Quote
She seems to be talking about the "exotic" American Western Rite Orthodox. ROCOR and the Antiochans are not the only one to have western rite parishes in the US. "Many of" does not mean "all". If she had said "all", this would have included ROCOR and Antiochian wester rite parishes
The reverse can be said as well, that by her saying "many" she means exactly what she said. Especially since "many" WR bishops are ROCOR or AOANA.

PP

Please take the time to re-read my post correctly.

Did not you notice the terms "so-called" and "Non-Canonical" which I used repeatedly.
The "exotic" American Western Rite Orthodox with their married bishops (and female bishops too) are certainly not part of World Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #516 on: June 05, 2012, 11:07:01 PM »

[sarcasm]
Regardless, as long as HOTCA doesn't have issues with Jesus being called Yeshua.
[/sarcasm]

Why would that be an issue? Huh

The comment was intended to be sarcastic given how an Old Calendarist Jurisdiction was founded due to a calendar change.

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« Reply #517 on: June 06, 2012, 12:24:36 AM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

. . .
Please document and justify your accusation or retract it within 72 hours. Thanks, Second Chance


Folks, please re-read my original posts.
Note that Schultz and others got the correct intent of my post because they read them with care.
Thanks.

In response to Second Chance, per his PM to me:

In my posts above, I was referring to the NON-CANONICAL so-called American Western-Rite Orthodox Church that was set up by the former bishop Aftimios, who resigned when he married in 1933. [See Again Magazine, previously sited.] These Western-Rite churches immediately went into schism after Aftimios married and vacated his diocese. There are many of these so-called NON-CANONICAL American Western-Rite Orthodox Churches who claim apostolic succession from the former bishop Aftimios. Go online and check. If I were to use the full name of the church which Aftimios started, and claim it to be non-canonical, I could be sued by them. Yes, they make that very threat online. Even though they are separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church, they still claim to be fully "Orthodox."
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« Reply #518 on: June 06, 2012, 12:27:20 AM »

Okay, thank you for the explanation.
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« Reply #519 on: June 06, 2012, 12:49:58 AM »

Okay, thank you for the explanation.

You are very welcome. Smiley
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« Reply #520 on: June 06, 2012, 09:00:35 AM »

Quote
Folks, please re-read my original posts.
Note that Schultz and others got the correct intent of my post because they read them with care.
Thanks.

In response to Second Chance, per his PM to me:

In my posts above, I was referring to the NON-CANONICAL so-called American Western-Rite Orthodox Church that was set up by the former bishop Aftimios, who resigned when he married in 1933. [See Again Magazine, previously sited.] These Western-Rite churches immediately went into schism after Aftimios married and vacated his diocese. There are many of these so-called NON-CANONICAL American Western-Rite Orthodox Churches who claim apostolic succession from the former bishop Aftimios. Go online and check. If I were to use the full name of the church which Aftimios started, and claim it to be non-canonical, I could be sued by them. Yes, they make that very threat online. Even though they are separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church, they still claim to be fully "Orthodox."
I apologize.

PP
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« Reply #521 on: June 06, 2012, 02:56:51 PM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

. . .
Please document and justify your accusation or retract it within 72 hours. Thanks, Second Chance


Folks, please re-read my original posts.
Note that Schultz and others got the correct intent of my post because they read them with care.
Thanks.

In response to Second Chance, per his PM to me:

In my posts above, I was referring to the NON-CANONICAL so-called American Western-Rite Orthodox Church that was set up by the former bishop Aftimios, who resigned when he married in 1933. [See Again Magazine, previously sited.] These Western-Rite churches immediately went into schism after Aftimios married and vacated his diocese. There are many of these so-called NON-CANONICAL American Western-Rite Orthodox Churches who claim apostolic succession from the former bishop Aftimios. Go online and check. If I were to use the full name of the church which Aftimios started, and claim it to be non-canonical, I could be sued by them. Yes, they make that very threat online. Even though they are separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church, they still claim to be fully "Orthodox."


Thank you for clearing this up and for being sensitive to moderators' demands for clarity. I truly appreciate it. Second Chance
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« Reply #522 on: June 06, 2012, 07:33:50 PM »

Quote from: Maria
I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.

In Again Magazine, Jan. - Mar. 2000, page 11, mention is made of a Russian Orthodox Bishop, Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh, who later left the episcopacy in 1933 to get married. Apparently, in the process of trying to create an American Western-Rite Orthodox Church in the 1920s and early 1930s, he ordained Old Catholics and Anglican Catholics. These groups, who are now without "canonical" direction, readily accepted the ordinations performed by him to "validate" their so-called "apostolic succession." Perhaps the bishop was not aware of their duplicity, or perhaps he was too ecumenical in reaching out to these Old Catholics and Protestants and that is why his attempt to start a Western-Rite Church failed miserably. If you go online and input American Western Rite Orthodox, you will certainly get quite a listing of these non-canonical parishes who readily trace their "apostolic succession" to Bishop Aftimios Ofiesh.

When you realize that many of the so-called "American Western-Rite Orthodox" churches have married bishops, then it is not surprising that Bishop Aftimios was encouraged to get married by his associates in these "non-canonical" churches.

Another devastating fruit of ecumenism.

. . .
Please document and justify your accusation or retract it within 72 hours. Thanks, Second Chance


Folks, please re-read my original posts.
Note that Schultz and others got the correct intent of my post because they read them with care.
Thanks.

In response to Second Chance, per his PM to me:

In my posts above, I was referring to the NON-CANONICAL so-called American Western-Rite Orthodox Church that was set up by the former bishop Aftimios, who resigned when he married in 1933. [See Again Magazine, previously sited.] These Western-Rite churches immediately went into schism after Aftimios married and vacated his diocese. There are many of these so-called NON-CANONICAL American Western-Rite Orthodox Churches who claim apostolic succession from the former bishop Aftimios. Go online and check. If I were to use the full name of the church which Aftimios started, and claim it to be non-canonical, I could be sued by them. Yes, they make that very threat online. Even though they are separated from the Eastern Orthodox Church, they still claim to be fully "Orthodox."


Thank you for clearing this up and for being sensitive to moderators' demands for clarity. I truly appreciate it. Second Chance

You are welcome. I guess if folks don't get the message the first time, they will the second time. Roll Eyes

Did you go online and see the icon of the former bishop Aftimios, who is being honored by these vagante  groups as a martyr clothed in Orthodox Bishop's vestments? That just blows my mind.
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« Reply #523 on: April 21, 2013, 10:34:39 AM »

This falls short of a full rape (violation) of canons. it's more like inappropriate touching.
I have to admit, you're sharp here.

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.

Being drunk on judgment and self-righteousness is often difficult to distinguish from soberness.
sharper yet.

This falls short of a full rape (violation) of canons. it's more like inappropriate touching.

Heavy petting?

Being drunk on judgment and self-righteousness is often difficult to distinguish from soberness.

May God bless your weebley-wobbley mind!
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« Reply #524 on: April 21, 2013, 10:42:08 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
The Mormons are full of charity, love, kindness and compassion. Their "theology" is also full of heresy.
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« Reply #525 on: April 21, 2013, 11:03:20 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
The Mormons are full of charity, love, kindness and compassion. Their "theology" is also full of heresy.

The Mormon theology is gnosticism which is listed in the above cited website.
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« Reply #526 on: April 21, 2013, 11:07:13 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
The Mormons are full of charity, love, kindness and compassion. Their "theology" is also full of heresy.

The Mormon theology is gnosticism which is listed in the above cited website.
I'm not sure it is gnostic rather than just a repetition of the gnostics' mistakes, rather than learning from them.
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« Reply #527 on: April 21, 2013, 11:17:57 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
The Mormons are full of charity, love, kindness and compassion. Their "theology" is also full of heresy.

The Mormon theology is gnosticism which is listed in the above cited website.
I'm not sure it is gnostic rather than just a repetition of the gnostics' mistakes, rather than learning from them.

Are you familiar with the pamphlet, Cultist at my door: An Orthodox Examination of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses by Father John W. Morris and published by Conciliar Press?  Fr. Morris says on page 21:

Quote
However, Mormonism differs from ancient Gnosticism in one major way.  Gnosticism considered the physical world so evil that many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, teaching instead that Christ only seemed to have a physical body (a doctrine called Docetism).  The Latter Day Saints, on the other hand, exalt matter over spirit, believing that matter is eternal.

Although the Scriptures teach that God is spirit (John 4:24), the Latter Day Saints believe that god has a body of flesh and bones.  Indeed, they believe that the god of this world is an exalted man who became a god.  Finally, they believe that by following the beliefs and practices of the Mormon religion, they too may become gods ruling over their own worlds.
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« Reply #528 on: April 21, 2013, 02:10:47 PM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
The Mormons are full of charity, love, kindness and compassion. Their "theology" is also full of heresy.

The Mormon theology is gnosticism which is listed in the above cited website.
I'm not sure it is gnostic rather than just a repetition of the gnostics' mistakes, rather than learning from them.

Are you familiar with the pamphlet, Cultist at my door: An Orthodox Examination of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses by Father John W. Morris and published by Conciliar Press?  Fr. Morris says on page 21:

Quote
However, Mormonism differs from ancient Gnosticism in one major way.  Gnosticism considered the physical world so evil that many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, teaching instead that Christ only seemed to have a physical body (a doctrine called Docetism).  The Latter Day Saints, on the other hand, exalt matter over spirit, believing that matter is eternal.

Although the Scriptures teach that God is spirit (John 4:24), the Latter Day Saints believe that god has a body of flesh and bones.  Indeed, they believe that the god of this world is an exalted man who became a god.  Finally, they believe that by following the beliefs and practices of the Mormon religion, they too may become gods ruling over their own worlds.
Yes, I've seen it.  More importantly, I've seen literature written by Mormons for Mormons, beyond the glossy brochure they send out (which, if you are in the know, you can pick up a turn of phrase here and there that doesn't sound quite right to Orthodox ears, but is swallowed by the unwary).
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« Reply #529 on: April 21, 2013, 02:17:53 PM »

Yes, I've seen it.  More importantly, I've seen literature written by Mormons for Mormons, beyond the glossy brochure they send out (which, if you are in the know, you can pick up a turn of phrase here and there that doesn't sound quite right to Orthodox ears, but is swallowed by the unwary).

I'm starting to wonder what haven't you seen.    Smiley Shocked  Smiley

I wonder why Mormonism is a rapidly growing religion.   Huh
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« Reply #530 on: April 21, 2013, 06:55:31 PM »

Yes, I've seen it.  More importantly, I've seen literature written by Mormons for Mormons, beyond the glossy brochure they send out (which, if you are in the know, you can pick up a turn of phrase here and there that doesn't sound quite right to Orthodox ears, but is swallowed by the unwary).

I'm starting to wonder what haven't you seen.    Smiley Shocked  Smiley

I wonder why Mormonism is a rapidly growing religion.   Huh

All their youth must engage in door to door evangelism.
They have lots of dances and outings for youth, and their youth are encouraged to invite non-Mormons to these parties. As a youth, I went to several great dances where they served awesome food.

For the adults, they have a lot of free concerts, and open houses at their temple.

~~~~~

Since this thread has now gone off-topic, I have started a new thread to cover Youth Evangelism.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51154.msg914073.html#msg914073
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:03:31 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #531 on: April 21, 2013, 07:21:52 PM »

Yes, I've seen it.  More importantly, I've seen literature written by Mormons for Mormons, beyond the glossy brochure they send out (which, if you are in the know, you can pick up a turn of phrase here and there that doesn't sound quite right to Orthodox ears, but is swallowed by the unwary).

I'm starting to wonder what haven't you seen.    Smiley Shocked  Smiley

I wonder why Mormonism is a rapidly growing religion.   Huh
It has an aggressive proselytism movement, which preys (yes, I choose that word) on the unwary-the unchurched and disenchanted.  It offers a social network for those who do not have a strong one.

It has a big problem retaining its followers beyond just an "ethnic" Mormonism.  The JW have a similar dynamic, just worse: one former JW said that the most distressing thing was it was rare to see a third generation JW.
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« Reply #532 on: April 21, 2013, 08:52:30 PM »

Yes, I've seen it.  More importantly, I've seen literature written by Mormons for Mormons, beyond the glossy brochure they send out (which, if you are in the know, you can pick up a turn of phrase here and there that doesn't sound quite right to Orthodox ears, but is swallowed by the unwary).

I'm starting to wonder what haven't you seen.    Smiley Shocked  Smiley

I wonder why Mormonism is a rapidly growing religion.   Huh
It has an aggressive proselytism movement, which preys (yes, I choose that word) on the unwary-the unchurched and disenchanted.  It offers a social network for those who do not have a strong one.

I've never been proselytized by ones on bikes nor when I visited their DC Visitors Center (I was curious) during Christmas 2004.  To me, Mormonism seems like another Prosperity Gospel.

It has a big problem retaining its followers beyond just an "ethnic" Mormonism.  The JW have a similar dynamic, just worse: one former JW said that the most distressing thing was it was rare to see a third generation JW.

JWs can only control so many things.  They rely on books when the Internet is in play.
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