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Author Topic: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons  (Read 13943 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« Reply #450 on: June 04, 2012, 01:13:51 AM »

Sheesh!

Can we get back on topic and cease the personal attacks?

Any current news concerning the Metropolitan?

No, we are on topic, Maria.

Really?

Has there been any more news on the German Metropolitan (who is from Crete)?
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Maria
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« Reply #451 on: June 04, 2012, 01:16:55 AM »

Bumping this as it has been the last post twice:

And nobody commented on my post copied below:
Quote
Many years ago, I was part of the ecumenical movement and sang in the choir when Archbishop Spyridon of the Greek Archdiocese was present at such interfaith Christian services. As a result, I was a proponent of ecumenism for many years. Let me share a few observations and the pitfalls of being a part of the ecumenical movement.

. . .

The program for the Ecumenical prayer service or the proceedings of the ecumenical dialogue which they are carrying in their hands is worrisome because these events are planned to promote "brotherhood" and "unity" when no real sacramental unity exists. Often these events play to the emotions, whereby the people involved give embraces or anoint one another, and for some Protestants, such emotionalism is a key part of their non-liturgical services. This emotionalism combined with feel-good sermons makes them feel "fed." As a result, at these ecumenical services and programs, people can be led to compromise their beliefs because they are on an emotional high, and worse, they do not want to offend new found friends whom they have met. Thus the Truth, which is Christ our God, is compromised, and people betray Him with a kiss or hug. It is the slippery slope. And as C.S. Lewis would say, Screwtape would be proud.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Ecumenism, and I have repented. I remain grateful that I am no longer in the Ecumenical Movement, and would encourage anyone who makes light of such involvement to rethink their position.

Ever heard the story of the experiment with frogs:

One group of frogs were placed into a pan of hot water, but they immediately escaped and survived.

A second group of frogs were placed into a pan of cold water which was slowly heated up.
These frogs did not realize the danger they were in and slowly became frog soup.

If the Bishops of World Orthodoxy do not cease their involvement with the Ecumenical Movement, with interfaith prayer services, with theological dialogues, and with the WCC and other ecumenist groups, then slowly they will find themselves compromising the faith and leading the faithful into the boiling cauldron.


~~~

So, why do people feel that Ecumenism is just fine and dandy when it can lead us down the slippery slope of thinking that all religions lead to God? Again, Screwtape would be so pleased.

And why do some people here, especially PtA, feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 01:37:40 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #452 on: June 04, 2012, 01:19:09 AM »

"What's the point" was exactly the stance of the iconoclasts.

You ignored the point that the 'True Orthodox' call the bishops and priests Master and Teacher and all that stuff.

I made no personal attacks on you, just your claims. Loosen your collar and calm down. Don't flatter yourself.
You need to research the iconoclasts better.   They were far beyond, "what's the point".

Actually you kind of did make personal attacks against my faith issues.  It's not the topic of this thread, nor does it have anything to do with the arguments I present on the thread subject.
The attacks on your faith issues are really just attempts to point out that your inconsistency totally strips you of all credibility to attack a bishop of the Orthodox Church on the issue of ecumenism.

I've been consistent.  I still don't agree with Father/Master.  I still don't see icons past paint & wood.  I don't see the point of ritualistic repetitive crossing of oneself and praying.  I don't see the point in cross, bow, venerate paint and wood, bow, cross...

I've also been very consistent in denouncing ecumenism.  I've been consistent in praising on the grace of the Orthodox faith.   I've been consistent on the belief in the Eucharist.  I've been consistent in the belief that the clergy should follow the Canon of the Holy Apostles.

People lack the understanding is all.

EO's believe in the Eucharist.
Some EO's disagree on the Calendar. (Trivial)
Some EO's disagree on the beards. (Trivial)
Some EO's disagree on full or cut services (Trivial)
Eastern, Western, or Old Rite (Trivial)

I happen to be an EO who doesn't agree with calling clergy "Father or Master". can't see icons past paint & wood (pointless veneration), does not see the point of repetitive crossing & bowing.  I see incense as "pointless".    Pointless things, oh well.   I can get over pointless.   The "Father & Master" issue is a pretty good one, I admit.  The rest I can get over, because "Oh well, I see it as pointless but it helps others".
Not at all pointless, in that they all point to one common denominator: You have established yourself as the ultimate authority on matters of faith and practice, and you will obey no other authority. One who cannot submit to any authority outside himself has no business telling anyone else to submit to the authority of the Apostolic Canons. You would do well to get your own house in order before you try to order ours.

So I don't think my credibility is stripped, I think it is misunderstood.
Your credibility is based on what you present to others, not what you think about yourself. Some here cannot trust you to be consistent. That means you have no credibility.

I didn't tell him to submit to the canons.   He agreed to submit to the canons.   He promised it during the consecration, on his third confession of faith.

I don't trust many on here to be consistent.   By the logic you presented they have no credibility either.  Or perhaps, as much credibility as a photo or video... which of course, seems to have proven to be true.... after all.

So in light of credibility - Are you Orthodox?  Are you in communion with RC anointed Metropolitans?  
(And I was accused by another here of practicing Syncretism - ecumenism is syncretism, to World Orthodoxy)
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« Reply #453 on: June 04, 2012, 01:28:43 AM »

Bumping this as it has been the last post twice:

And nobody commented on my post copied below:
Quote
Many years ago, I was part of the ecumenical movement and sang in the choir when Archbishop Spyridon of the Greek Archdiocese was present at such interfaith Christian services. As a result, I was a proponent of ecumenism for many years. Let me share a few observations and the pitfalls of being a part of the ecumenical movement.

. . .

The program for the Ecumenical prayer service or the proceedings of the ecumenical dialogue which they are carrying in their hands is worrisome because these events are planned to promote "brotherhood" and "unity" when no real sacramental unity exists. Often these events play to the emotions, whereby the people involved give embraces or anoint one another, and for some Protestants, such emotionalism is a key part of their non-liturgical services. This emotionalism combined with feel-good sermons makes them feel "fed." As a result, at these ecumenical services and programs, people can be led to compromise their beliefs because they are on an emotional high, and worse, they do not want to offend new found friends whom they have met. Thus the Truth, which is Christ our God, is compromised, and people betray Him with a kiss or hug. It is the slippery slope. And as C.S. Lewis would say, Screwtape would be proud.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Ecumenism, and I have repented. I remain grateful that I am no longer in the Ecumenical Movement, and would encourage anyone who makes light of such involvement to rethink their position.

Ever heard the story of the experiment with frogs:

One group of frogs were placed into a pan of hot water, but they immediately escaped and survived.

A second group of frogs were placed into a pan of cold water which was slowly heated up.
These frogs did not realize the danger they were in and slowly became frog soup.

If the Bishops of World Orthodoxy do not cease their involvement with the Ecumenical Movement, with interfaith prayer services, with theological dialogues, and with the WCC and other ecumenist groups, then slowly they will find themselves compromising the faith and leading the faithful into the boiling cauldron.


~~~

So, why do people feel that Ecumenism is just fine and dandy when it can lead us down the slippery slope of thinking that all religions lead to God? Again, Screwtape would be so pleased.

And why do some people here, especially PtA feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?

Maria,

It's because people are scared.  They are freaked out completely.  They all know its not a mistake that a Metropolitan makes.   This was done completely on purpose.   Everybody knows it.  They have even gone on a personal vendetta against me because that's easier for them to cope with, rather than deal with the issue.   No matter how many times I've tried to get the subject back on track.  Even a Catechumen knows you don't go and get anointed by the RC's.  LOL

Real men, stand up for what they believe in, no matter how much it hurts.  But there is an element of fear, an element of faith, and a element of "why me, why this, and how could...." that goes on.  I've dealt with this.   Sometimes people have been in their church their entire lives and they don't want to leave.

I could give you stories of ecumenism that would blow your mind.... Things I have witnessed... Bullying (yes even to the physical level) I have witnessed to churches getting out of ecumenism bishops (not just Espigmenou).  If people would quit supporting these bishops doing these heresies, and be brave, find a bishop who is against ecumensim, the WCC and the Ecumenism movement would lose a lot of power.

God Bless
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SolEX01
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« Reply #454 on: June 04, 2012, 01:31:32 AM »

By syncretic you mean baptized by the OCA?

You don't recognize the OCA as an autocephalous church?  By syncretism, what do you assert that the OCA is made of?

Religious Syncretism holds that when any two cultures meet and interact they will exchange religious ideas with the dominant culture prevailing in the exchange. source

In the example of the OCA, which two cultures are meeting and interacting: American & Russian?  In your example, you have American culture and Anabaptist culture and I bet that the Anabaptist culture is dominant because of the number of women involved.

Most of your questions are irrational.   But I'll answer what I can understand.

You are the Patriarch of a syncretic faith in a church consisting of 7 people.

You can be in a church and not worship.   I would sit there, observe, and understand what they were doing.

I attended Mass at a Roman Catholic Church.  I recited the Creed, excluding the Filioque and the Lord's Prayer.  I didn't go up for the Eucharist.

Some Anabaptists do excommunicate for marriage outside of their faith, some do not.   Old order Amish for instance do.  Old order Mennonites often do.  Beachy Amish do not. Most Mennonites do not.  Hutterites often do.

Why didn't the Hutterites excommunicate your wife for not marrying one of them?

The "interfaith marriage" that you say I have, is actually wrong.

Why is it wrong?

My wife has agreed to be of my faith, which I consider Eastern Orthodox, which you call syncretic.

You have it backwards.  Your wife is Hutterite and she worships your syncretic faith because you are head of household.  Since your wife hasn't converted to Orthodox Christianity and continues to worship with the Hutterites, you are living an interfaith marriage.

I hate to hear that you believe the apostolic creed is syncretic, because that is my creed.

What is your creed - there are many of them.  I believe in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed from the Second Ecumenical Council.

I was separated from most of the sacraments when witnessing ecumenism, not from my marriage which is actually quite rude to say,

When you introduced your Hutterite wife to your Orthodox community and the Priest told you that you no longer could receive the sacraments, do you consider his comments an act of Ecumenism?

and events similar to what your world orthodox bishop is shown doing.  Violating the canon.

Deflecting attention from yourself back to Metropolitan Augustine.

See where this thread is going guys.  Nitpick a layman's issues.  While -

Why should anyone take you seriously?  You are a Patriarch of a 7 member church that blends Orthodoxy and Anabaptist.  You say that your Hutterite wife has accepted the Orthodox faith; yet, she continues to worship with the Hutterites.

YOU HAVE A WORLD ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN GETTING ANOINTED BY A HERETICAL ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!  This is NOT ABOUT ME.  This is RIDICULOUS & INCREDIBLY immature.  I'm a HUSBAND, a PARENT, I have a personal life, I work a regular job for a living...  Yes, I have faith issues.  No, I'm not a perfect person.   I am NOT A CLERGY, I am certainly not a BISHOP or in this case a METROPOLITAN.   I KNOW better than to get anointed by a Roman Catholic, and certainly this METROPOLITAN knew better.

You're also a Patriarch.  All Bishops are equal; hence, you must feel equal to Metropolitan Augustine to judge him so harshly.

I didn't violate the Canon of the Holy Apostles as far as I know, but if I have in any way, I'm a layman.  You don't see numerous Orthodox web sites in many languages in many countries posting photos of me and my family as Canon violators.   Instead, you see this Metropolitan.

The Hutterites do not have modern technology.  I saw a story on how the Amish allow their young people to taste the outside world for a couple of days and even allow them to leave the Amish world.  I never said that you and your family were canon violators; however, how can you as a Patriarch of syncretism judge another Bishop?

This is a trollish witch hunt, which I'm tired of, and frankly too old to take further.

You opened this door by mentioning your combination of Orthodoxy and Anabaptist faiths.

I've posted the texts from the consecration from the EO service book I cited.  If you are in WORLD ORTHODOXY, this is the service most likely used (language varies).  I did not add or subtract anything from it.   Make up your own mind.  This is ecumenism, and it happens all the time at WCC events.  If you want to be in communion with these heretical bishops, that's your business.

"Where the bishop is, there is the church".   Happy anointings!

I wouldn't allow anyone to put their hands on me.  I'm a sinner and I eventually sin and I can ask for forgiveness because Christ granted economia when he told the woman about to be stoned to go and sin no more.  So, throw the stones that you have aimed at Metropolitan Augustine away.   Smiley
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 01:37:48 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
Maria
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« Reply #455 on: June 04, 2012, 01:51:11 AM »

Bumping this as it has been the last post twice:

And nobody commented on my post copied below:
Quote
Many years ago, I was part of the ecumenical movement and sang in the choir when Archbishop Spyridon of the Greek Archdiocese was present at such interfaith Christian services. As a result, I was a proponent of ecumenism for many years. Let me share a few observations and the pitfalls of being a part of the ecumenical movement.

. . .

The program for the Ecumenical prayer service or the proceedings of the ecumenical dialogue which they are carrying in their hands is worrisome because these events are planned to promote "brotherhood" and "unity" when no real sacramental unity exists. Often these events play to the emotions, whereby the people involved give embraces or anoint one another, and for some Protestants, such emotionalism is a key part of their non-liturgical services. This emotionalism combined with feel-good sermons makes them feel "fed." As a result, at these ecumenical services and programs, people can be led to compromise their beliefs because they are on an emotional high, and worse, they do not want to offend new found friends whom they have met. Thus the Truth, which is Christ our God, is compromised, and people betray Him with a kiss or hug. It is the slippery slope. And as C.S. Lewis would say, Screwtape would be proud.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Ecumenism, and I have repented. I remain grateful that I am no longer in the Ecumenical Movement, and would encourage anyone who makes light of such involvement to rethink their position.

Ever heard the story of the experiment with frogs:

One group of frogs were placed into a pan of hot water, but they immediately escaped and survived.

A second group of frogs were placed into a pan of cold water which was slowly heated up.
These frogs did not realize the danger they were in and slowly became frog soup.

If the Bishops of World Orthodoxy do not cease their involvement with the Ecumenical Movement, with interfaith prayer services, with theological dialogues, and with the WCC and other ecumenist groups, then slowly they will find themselves compromising the faith and leading the faithful into the boiling cauldron.


~~~

So, why do people feel that Ecumenism is just fine and dandy when it can lead us down the slippery slope of thinking that all religions lead to God? Again, Screwtape would be so pleased.

And why do some people here, especially PtA feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?

Maria,

It's because people are scared.  They are freaked out completely.  They all know its not a mistake that a Metropolitan makes.   This was done completely on purpose.   Everybody knows it.  They have even gone on a personal vendetta against me because that's easier for them to cope with, rather than deal with the issue.   No matter how many times I've tried to get the subject back on track.  Even a Catechumen knows you don't go and get anointed by the RC's.  LOL

Real men, stand up for what they believe in, no matter how much it hurts.  But there is an element of fear, an element of faith, and a element of "why me, why this, and how could...." that goes on.  I've dealt with this.   Sometimes people have been in their church their entire lives and they don't want to leave.

I could give you stories of ecumenism that would blow your mind.... Things I have witnessed... Bullying (yes even to the physical level) I have witnessed to churches getting out of ecumenism bishops (not just Espigmenou).  If people would quit supporting these bishops doing these heresies, and be brave, find a bishop who is against ecumensim, the WCC and the Ecumenism movement would lose a lot of power.

God Bless

I do not think that Metropolitan Augustine and the rest of the World Orthodoxy Bishops who are involved in the Ecumenical Movement do so out of fear. I think that they really do love these people and have a good heart, but I think they are sincerely MISLED, and that they are misleading thousands of our laity in the wrong direction.

Only Orthodoxy is the True Faith. However, when these World Orthodox Bishops participate in dialogues with non-Orthodox, they give the impression that all religions have the Truth, which is not true, that all religions are equal, when they certainly are not, and that all religions can lead to heaven, which is also false.

I am not saying that a devout Protestant or Catholic cannot enter heaven, but that we Orthodox have the Holy Mysteries and traditions that more easily give us graces and sure helps to grow in theosis.



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Glory to Him forever!
yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #456 on: June 04, 2012, 02:05:35 AM »

By syncretic you mean baptized by the OCA?

You don't recognize the OCA as an autocephalous church?  By syncretism, what do you assert that the OCA is made of?

Religious Syncretism holds that when any two cultures meet and interact they will exchange religious ideas with the dominant culture prevailing in the exchange. source

In the example of the OCA, which two cultures are meeting and interacting: American & Russian?  In your example, you have American culture and Anabaptist culture and I bet that the Anabaptist culture is dominant because of the number of women involved.

Most of your questions are irrational.   But I'll answer what I can understand.

You are the Patriarch of a syncretic faith in a church consisting of 7 people.

You can be in a church and not worship.   I would sit there, observe, and understand what they were doing.

I attended Mass at a Roman Catholic Church.  I recited the Creed, excluding the Filioque and the Lord's Prayer.  I didn't go up for the Eucharist.

Some Anabaptists do excommunicate for marriage outside of their faith, some do not.   Old order Amish for instance do.  Old order Mennonites often do.  Beachy Amish do not. Most Mennonites do not.  Hutterites often do.

Why didn't the Hutterites excommunicate your wife for not marrying one of them?

The "interfaith marriage" that you say I have, is actually wrong.

Why is it wrong?

My wife has agreed to be of my faith, which I consider Eastern Orthodox, which you call syncretic.

You have it backwards.  Your wife is Hutterite and she worships your syncretic faith because you are head of household.  Since your wife hasn't converted to Orthodox Christianity and continues to worship with the Hutterites, you are living an interfaith marriage.

I hate to hear that you believe the apostolic creed is syncretic, because that is my creed.

What is your creed - there are many of them.  I believe in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed from the Second Ecumenical Council.

I was separated from most of the sacraments when witnessing ecumenism, not from my marriage which is actually quite rude to say,

When you introduced your Hutterite wife to your Orthodox community and the Priest told you that you no longer could receive the sacraments, do you consider his comments an act of Ecumenism?

and events similar to what your world orthodox bishop is shown doing.  Violating the canon.

Deflecting attention from yourself back to Metropolitan Augustine.

See where this thread is going guys.  Nitpick a layman's issues.  While -

Why should anyone take you seriously?  You are a Patriarch of a 7 member church that blends Orthodoxy and Anabaptist.  You say that your Hutterite wife has accepted the Orthodox faith; yet, she continues to worship with the Hutterites.

YOU HAVE A WORLD ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN GETTING ANOINTED BY A HERETICAL ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!  This is NOT ABOUT ME.  This is RIDICULOUS & INCREDIBLY immature.  I'm a HUSBAND, a PARENT, I have a personal life, I work a regular job for a living...  Yes, I have faith issues.  No, I'm not a perfect person.   I am NOT A CLERGY, I am certainly not a BISHOP or in this case a METROPOLITAN.   I KNOW better than to get anointed by a Roman Catholic, and certainly this METROPOLITAN knew better.

You're also a Patriarch.  All Bishops are equal; hence, you must feel equal to Metropolitan Augustine to judge him so harshly.

I didn't violate the Canon of the Holy Apostles as far as I know, but if I have in any way, I'm a layman.  You don't see numerous Orthodox web sites in many languages in many countries posting photos of me and my family as Canon violators.   Instead, you see this Metropolitan.

The Hutterites do not have modern technology.  I saw a story on how the Amish allow their young people to taste the outside world for a couple of days and even allow them to leave the Amish world.  I never said that you and your family were canon violators; however, how can you as a Patriarch of syncretism judge another Bishop?

This is a trollish witch hunt, which I'm tired of, and frankly too old to take further.

You opened this door by mentioning your combination of Orthodoxy and Anabaptist faiths.

I've posted the texts from the consecration from the EO service book I cited.  If you are in WORLD ORTHODOXY, this is the service most likely used (language varies).  I did not add or subtract anything from it.   Make up your own mind.  This is ecumenism, and it happens all the time at WCC events.  If you want to be in communion with these heretical bishops, that's your business.

"Where the bishop is, there is the church".   Happy anointings!

I wouldn't allow anyone to put their hands on me.  I'm a sinner and I eventually sin and I can ask for forgiveness because Christ granted economia when he told the woman about to be stoned to go and sin no more.  So, throw the stones that you have aimed at Metropolitan Augustine away.   Smiley

I think it's funny when somebody thinks they know you better than you do.

So I get the syncretism label by you, mockingly called "my own patriarch", but then you I take it go to world Orthodoxy, where the World Orthodox Bishop gets anointed by the RC's.  

I think the label you've given me is incredibly ironic.  

Perhaps the Metropolitan could interest you in a wafer!  He's already been anointed & you probably are in communion with him.  In fact, he was anointed by a guy who was anointed by a priestess.   You could also go to a WCC meet, and enjoy a nice time with a tribal cleansing ceremony right before the divine liturgy.  You may even get free war ash paint, and watch men in tribal G-strings prance in front of the relics of the antimins and Eucharist.   (Oh wait I forgot, I have a few faith issues...  and I'm the one who is thought to be practicing syncretism...).

Of course, you could also come off the personal rampage against me you are on, realize what is happening, use common sense and AT LEAST condemn the Metropolitan's actions!  Or better yet, stop being in communion with the heretics that practice ecumenism and join an Orthodox bishop who is against it such as a HOTCA bishop.
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yeshuaisiam
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*********
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Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #457 on: June 04, 2012, 02:08:50 AM »

Bumping this as it has been the last post twice:

And nobody commented on my post copied below:
Quote
Many years ago, I was part of the ecumenical movement and sang in the choir when Archbishop Spyridon of the Greek Archdiocese was present at such interfaith Christian services. As a result, I was a proponent of ecumenism for many years. Let me share a few observations and the pitfalls of being a part of the ecumenical movement.

. . .

The program for the Ecumenical prayer service or the proceedings of the ecumenical dialogue which they are carrying in their hands is worrisome because these events are planned to promote "brotherhood" and "unity" when no real sacramental unity exists. Often these events play to the emotions, whereby the people involved give embraces or anoint one another, and for some Protestants, such emotionalism is a key part of their non-liturgical services. This emotionalism combined with feel-good sermons makes them feel "fed." As a result, at these ecumenical services and programs, people can be led to compromise their beliefs because they are on an emotional high, and worse, they do not want to offend new found friends whom they have met. Thus the Truth, which is Christ our God, is compromised, and people betray Him with a kiss or hug. It is the slippery slope. And as C.S. Lewis would say, Screwtape would be proud.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Ecumenism, and I have repented. I remain grateful that I am no longer in the Ecumenical Movement, and would encourage anyone who makes light of such involvement to rethink their position.

Ever heard the story of the experiment with frogs:

One group of frogs were placed into a pan of hot water, but they immediately escaped and survived.

A second group of frogs were placed into a pan of cold water which was slowly heated up.
These frogs did not realize the danger they were in and slowly became frog soup.

If the Bishops of World Orthodoxy do not cease their involvement with the Ecumenical Movement, with interfaith prayer services, with theological dialogues, and with the WCC and other ecumenist groups, then slowly they will find themselves compromising the faith and leading the faithful into the boiling cauldron.


~~~

So, why do people feel that Ecumenism is just fine and dandy when it can lead us down the slippery slope of thinking that all religions lead to God? Again, Screwtape would be so pleased.

And why do some people here, especially PtA feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?

Maria,

It's because people are scared.  They are freaked out completely.  They all know its not a mistake that a Metropolitan makes.   This was done completely on purpose.   Everybody knows it.  They have even gone on a personal vendetta against me because that's easier for them to cope with, rather than deal with the issue.   No matter how many times I've tried to get the subject back on track.  Even a Catechumen knows you don't go and get anointed by the RC's.  LOL

Real men, stand up for what they believe in, no matter how much it hurts.  But there is an element of fear, an element of faith, and a element of "why me, why this, and how could...." that goes on.  I've dealt with this.   Sometimes people have been in their church their entire lives and they don't want to leave.

I could give you stories of ecumenism that would blow your mind.... Things I have witnessed... Bullying (yes even to the physical level) I have witnessed to churches getting out of ecumenism bishops (not just Espigmenou).  If people would quit supporting these bishops doing these heresies, and be brave, find a bishop who is against ecumensim, the WCC and the Ecumenism movement would lose a lot of power.

God Bless

I do not think that Metropolitan Augustine and the rest of the World Orthodoxy Bishops who are involved in the Ecumenical Movement do so out of fear. I think that they really do love these people and have a good heart, but I think they are sincerely MISLED, and that they are misleading thousands of our laity in the wrong direction.

Only Orthodoxy is the True Faith. However, when these World Orthodox Bishops participate in dialogues with non-Orthodox, they give the impression that all religions have the Truth, which is not true, that all religions are equal, when they certainly are not, and that all religions can lead to heaven, which is also false.

I am not saying that a devout Protestant or Catholic cannot enter heaven, but that we Orthodox have the Holy Mysteries and traditions that more easily give us graces and sure helps to grow in theosis.

No, I meant that the Eastern Orthodox laymen are scared when they see their bishops actually engaged in ecumenism.  Scared to leave their church.  Been their all their life. etc.

The Bishops who practice ecumenism, (past dialog), know exactly what they are doing.  They know perfectly well they are disobeying the Canon they agreed to follow.  The WCC is a powerful and wealthy organization.
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« Reply #458 on: June 04, 2012, 02:22:01 AM »

yeshuaisiam,

I apologize for presuming too much about your faith situation. I think there are problems if you cannot call yourself Orthodox without making qualifications about how it is "jumbled together" with Anabaptism, but I feel like calling you a syncretist was out of line. You're right to be concerned about these kind of things. I just hope you (and all of us) keep in mind to see the planks in our own eyes first.
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« Reply #459 on: June 04, 2012, 02:22:45 AM »

Bumping this as it has been the last post twice:

And nobody commented on my post copied below:
Quote
Many years ago, I was part of the ecumenical movement and sang in the choir when Archbishop Spyridon of the Greek Archdiocese was present at such interfaith Christian services. As a result, I was a proponent of ecumenism for many years. Let me share a few observations and the pitfalls of being a part of the ecumenical movement.

. . .

The program for the Ecumenical prayer service or the proceedings of the ecumenical dialogue which they are carrying in their hands is worrisome because these events are planned to promote "brotherhood" and "unity" when no real sacramental unity exists. Often these events play to the emotions, whereby the people involved give embraces or anoint one another, and for some Protestants, such emotionalism is a key part of their non-liturgical services. This emotionalism combined with feel-good sermons makes them feel "fed." As a result, at these ecumenical services and programs, people can be led to compromise their beliefs because they are on an emotional high, and worse, they do not want to offend new found friends whom they have met. Thus the Truth, which is Christ our God, is compromised, and people betray Him with a kiss or hug. It is the slippery slope. And as C.S. Lewis would say, Screwtape would be proud.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Ecumenism, and I have repented. I remain grateful that I am no longer in the Ecumenical Movement, and would encourage anyone who makes light of such involvement to rethink their position.

Ever heard the story of the experiment with frogs:

One group of frogs were placed into a pan of hot water, but they immediately escaped and survived.

A second group of frogs were placed into a pan of cold water which was slowly heated up.
These frogs did not realize the danger they were in and slowly became frog soup.

If the Bishops of World Orthodoxy do not cease their involvement with the Ecumenical Movement, with interfaith prayer services, with theological dialogues, and with the WCC and other ecumenist groups, then slowly they will find themselves compromising the faith and leading the faithful into the boiling cauldron.


~~~

So, why do people feel that Ecumenism is just fine and dandy when it can lead us down the slippery slope of thinking that all religions lead to God? Again, Screwtape would be so pleased.

And why do some people here, especially PtA feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?

Maria,

It's because people are scared.  They are freaked out completely.  They all know its not a mistake that a Metropolitan makes.   This was done completely on purpose.   Everybody knows it.  They have even gone on a personal vendetta against me because that's easier for them to cope with, rather than deal with the issue.   No matter how many times I've tried to get the subject back on track.  Even a Catechumen knows you don't go and get anointed by the RC's.  LOL

Real men, stand up for what they believe in, no matter how much it hurts.  But there is an element of fear, an element of faith, and a element of "why me, why this, and how could...." that goes on.  I've dealt with this.   Sometimes people have been in their church their entire lives and they don't want to leave.

I could give you stories of ecumenism that would blow your mind.... Things I have witnessed... Bullying (yes even to the physical level) I have witnessed to churches getting out of ecumenism bishops (not just Espigmenou).  If people would quit supporting these bishops doing these heresies, and be brave, find a bishop who is against ecumensim, the WCC and the Ecumenism movement would lose a lot of power.

God Bless

I do not think that Metropolitan Augustine and the rest of the World Orthodoxy Bishops who are involved in the Ecumenical Movement do so out of fear. I think that they really do love these people and have a good heart, but I think they are sincerely MISLED, and that they are misleading thousands of our laity in the wrong direction.

Only Orthodoxy is the True Faith. However, when these World Orthodox Bishops participate in dialogues with non-Orthodox, they give the impression that all religions have the Truth, which is not true, that all religions are equal, when they certainly are not, and that all religions can lead to heaven, which is also false.

I am not saying that a devout Protestant or Catholic cannot enter heaven, but that we Orthodox have the Holy Mysteries and traditions that more easily give us graces and sure helps to grow in theosis.

No, I meant that the Eastern Orthodox laymen are scared when they see their bishops actually engaged in ecumenism.  Scared to leave their church.  Been their all their life. etc.

The Bishops who practice ecumenism, (past dialog), know exactly what they are doing.  They know perfectly well they are disobeying the Canon they agreed to follow.  The WCC is a powerful and wealthy organization.

The Ecumenical prayer services and events impart such a "touchy-feely" emotional high. People hug each other, pray for each other, sing consoling hymns, light candles, and anoint each other. So, yes, in that kind of environment, bishops like Metropolitan Augustine will feel drawn into such happenings as this symbolic baptism.

Yet, it is wrong.

Was he sucked in because he did not want to offend those whom he had befriended?
Did he fear that he would be labeled as a reactionary if he failed to close his eyes and go along with the program?
Or was he drawn in because of the emotional high and Love he felt all around him much like the lovely people in San Francisco who wore flowers in their hair and who surrendered not only their faith, but also their virginity because love was everywhere and everything was rose-colored.

He was simply wrong to be there in the first place.

Wrong because this emotional high is a severe temptation and a scandal. Wrong because he knew that he might be put in a bad situation, and indeed he was.
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« Reply #460 on: June 04, 2012, 02:39:24 AM »

And why do some people here, especially PtA, feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?
Now you're putting words into my mouth, Maria, for I never said that. I recognize that Metropolitan Augustine may have done something deserving of excommunication/deposition. I just think you and yeshuaisiam and a few others have been far too quick to lynch His Beatitude without first allowing him a fair trial.
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« Reply #461 on: June 04, 2012, 02:53:35 AM »

Hey, I have been to Ecumenical Vespers Services with Archbishop Sypridon and other World Orthodoxy Bishops. I have seen what goes on with the program in hand.

Am I lynching anyone? That is a real exaggeration.

No, I am just informing the good people of the Ecumenical Emotional High that prevents the participants from seeing how one can give scandal at such an event, that prevents the soul from seeing the diabolical temptation that is taking place as free hugs are passed around, and that renders the will helpless to resist any efforts to flee before it is too late.

 
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« Reply #462 on: June 04, 2012, 03:01:09 AM »

Hey, I have been to Ecumenical Vespers Services with Archbishop Sypridon and other World Orthodoxy Bishops. I have seen what goes on with the program in hand.

Am I lynching anyone? That is a real exaggeration.
I'm not commenting on what you say about ecumenical gatherings in general, for I know nothing about such things. I do know something about due process, though, so I am qualified to say this: Your specific comments on the guilt of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Augustine, show that you have indeed joined the lynch mob.
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« Reply #463 on: June 04, 2012, 04:31:40 AM »

YOU HAVE A WORLD ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN GETTING ANOINTED BY A HERETICAL ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!

The word "to anoint" implies the usage of oil. Once again, it was water and a symbolical gesture as a reminder of baptism.
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« Reply #464 on: June 04, 2012, 08:30:54 AM »

I have no idea how saintly the accused Metropolitan is or not but I would bet if he is saintly, then he will more likely be deposed since that seems to be the ongoing pattern of tragedy of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #465 on: June 04, 2012, 09:59:41 AM »

I have been away from the computer for several days and have not been carefully following this thread, but I did want to respond to a couple of direct challenges to my previous posts:

today’s Old Calendarists would do well to follow the counsel of this man who was one of the first bishops to take leadership of the Old Calendarists and later repented of the false Old Calendarist ecclesiology and sought reception back into communion with the Church of Greece.

You're not honest at all because the Encyclical of 1950 that you don't quote is very clear. And it is signed by the same Archbishop Chrysostom that you present as always having believed in the presence of Grace in the New Calendar church. The only official documents expressing the position are the encyclicals although, due to the complexity of the situation, Metropolitan Chrysostomus may have had many hesitation.Some extracts here ….

I have not been dishonest in representing the views of Met Chrysostom.  The 1950 encyclical is a strange anomaly and is not consistent with what Met Chrysostom preached and taught from 1937 until 1950, or from after the encyclical was signed until his repose in 1955. 

The life of Elder Harlambos Dionysiatis, who was with Met Chrysostom until 1950, relates events surrounding the signing of this encyclical as follows:

Quote
“When we separated from the official Church because it followed the new calendar, we encountered a very serious problem. We were leaderless. Many clergy joined the Old Calendarists. Some priests from the Holy Mountain also came down. However, we didn’t have a bishop. In 1935, the Bishop of Florina, Chrysostomos, left the official Church and joined us. This was hailed with great joy. However, there was dissension among the ranks of the Old Calendarists. Some believed that grace was lost in the official Church along with the change of the calendar, while others said that grace remained, and ours was a stance of protest. I agreed with the latter.

“When the Bishop of Florina joined us, he believed the same as the latter group. Actually, he circulated an encyclical, from what I remember, which declared: ‘The Church of Greece is our Mother and we receive grace from there. However, we protest and sever our responsibilities because of the change in the calendar.’ However, in 1950 the fanatics prevailed. We gathered for a meeting with the bishop as president. He explained and pleaded with them:

— Please, don’t take an extreme position. Listen to me and I promise that we will win the struggle. I was a bishop with the new calendar for 10 years. If I support the view that grace has been lost from the New Calendarists then I don’t have grace either. I am a pseudo-bishop.


“The fanatics took no notice. They answered:

— You are a bishop. You have grace because you are an Old Calendarist. However, the New Calendarists don’t have grace to have proper Sacraments.

“I also tried to argue with them, but I saw nothing would come of it, only misunderstanding and confusion. They finally forced Chrysostomos, as president, to sign an encyclical that the official Church of Greece, by following the new calendar, had automatically become heretical and lost grace. The bishop is believed to have said, ‘I sign that which I don’t believe.’ But he signed.  As soon as the encyclical reached my hands I was so upset, I wept whole-heartedly. I was so disheartened I said to myself, ‘Oh, you wretch. God called you to the angelic life and you have stayed to save the world. And here are the results. Go to your destination, as quickly as possible, lest you suddenly die and find you have been unfaithful to the promise you made to God.”…

Despite the disagreement of the bishop, the Old Calendarists released the infamous encyclical of 1950 with which they declared the Church of the new calendar heretical and divorced from grace. Haralambos, disheartened by the outcome of the struggle, could no longer be held back by anything. He said goodbye to his relatives and quickly went to Little St Anne, to meet his Godfather and uncle. He then planned to go to Aegina, to see and farewell his aunt—Nun Efpraxia, student of leronimos the ascetic—before returning to the Holy Mountain to stay permanently near his uncle, as a monk.

Like a thirsty deer, Haralambos reached the Holy Mountain’s port of Daphne and continued his journey to the shore of St Anne. From there, he was shown a steep pathway that led to the caves of the brotherhood of the great Joseph the Hesychast. With the famous Elder was the equally worthy fellow ascetic, Elder Arsenios, who was Haralambos’ uncle by the flesh and also his Godfather.

The encyclical was signed by Met Chrysostom in March of 1950.  The fact that he signed what he did not believe, that he signed under pressure, and that he immediately retracted this position, can be seen by what he both said and did after  signing the encyclical.  On July 2, 1950, the "Bradyni" ("Evening") newspaper in Greece quoted Met Chrysostom (just a few months after signing the 1950 encyclical which affirmed the 1935 encyclical), as saying:

Quote
"the Synodical Decision of 1935 [regarding the Church of Greece] does not finally apply until the [Calendar Issue] is discussed at the future Pan-Orthodox Council."

Later that same year, in the December 11, 1950 issue of the same newspaper, Met Chrysostom made the following additional comments:

Quote
"... the Hierarchy [of the Church of Greece], for the sake of the authority and prestige of the Church, should suggest for one Metropolitan to act as an Old Calendarist, and to become the head of the Old Calendarists, while controlling the struggle from within the canonical boundaries [of the Church of Greece]... Only now have these ideologies emerged, which direct the [sacred struggle] and control it within the frames of the Sacred Canons..."

In other words, just a few months after signing the encyclical which declared the Church of Grace to be without grace and in schism on account of the calendar change, Met Chrysostom continued teaching that the Church of Greece was not in schism nor without grace; and he proceeded to negotiate with the Church of Greece with the hopes of establishing an Old Calendar diocese within the Church of Greece.  The hope was for there to be an Old Calendar bishop of the Church of Greece for those who wished to remain on the Old Calendar without breaking communion with the Church of Greece.  Met Chrysostom considered this arrangement as the only way to legitimately follow the Old Calendar in Greece according to the canons and still remain as part of the Church (just as Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, etc. used the Old Calendar but in communion with churches that had changed the calendar).

By 1952, Met Chrysostom’s Old Calendarist synod consisted of only himself and the bishops Christopher (Chatzis) and Polycarp (Liosis).  The Old Calendarist bishops Christopher and Polycarp agreed that their position as Old Calendarist bishops was illegitimate, they recognized that the Church of Greece had been right to depose them as bishops for their schism, and they were finally received back into the Church of Greece in 1954.  Sadly, Met Chrysostom was not received back into the Church of Greece and reposed alone, refusing to consecrate more bishops for the Old Calendarists, and refusing to perpetuate the schism.     

Today the Old Calendarists justify their uncanonical and anti-Orthodox schism based on contemporary problems with Ecumenism.  Orthodox participation in Ecumenism has indeed been problematic, and a number of participants in the Ecumenical Movement from the Orthodox side have both done and said things which are not consistent with Orthodox ecclesiology.  However, the Old Calendarist schism has nothing to do with these later questionable words and deeds, so their uncanonical schism from the Church remains an uncanonical schism from the Church regardless of whatever real (or fabricated) abuses occur from individual Orthodox participants in this movement.


Today, almost 100 yrs after the change of calendar, we still have no “heresy of Ecumenism” being preached.  Certainly we have instances of words and actions which blur ecclesiastical boundaries, which cause confusion, and which are questionable, but I cannot think of a single bishop today who is preaching that we must unite with Roman Catholics, Protestants, or anyone else and disregard our dogmatic differences.  Met Hilarion of Volokalamsk in particular has been very involved in ecumenical dialogues, and constantly calls for the return of all to the faith of the first millennium as a precondition for any real unity.  Statements of Orthodox participants in the WCC say the same.  Yes, unfortunate words and deeds have occurred, but the public preaching of heresy is something else entirely.

Some proofs of ecumenical heresy….

…Isn't all this a proof of branch theory? 

The “proofs of ecumenical heresy” do highlight very objectionable agreements made in the past by individual Orthodox participants in the Ecumenical Movement.  None of these events, however, had anything to do with the Old Calendarist schism which occurred many decades prior.  Orthodox participation in the Ecumenical Movement, as I have already said, has been very problematic and the local Orthodox churches do recognize this.  None of the local Orthodox churches have changed their confession of faith as a result of such participation, and none have adopted heresies that have been proclaimed as such by past Councils or Fathers.  You can argue that perhaps some have come close to doing so, but this is essentially a problem for the Orthodox Church to resolve.  While those who have removed themselves from the Orthodox Church, and have departed into numerous schisms, may enjoy pointing out whatever real or invented problems they can identify in the Orthodox Church; by departing into schism and amputating themselves from the living body of Christ, they are unable to be part of the solution and can do nothing to build up or support the living body.
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« Reply #466 on: June 04, 2012, 10:59:39 AM »

yeshuaisiam,

I apologize for presuming too much about your faith situation. I think there are problems if you cannot call yourself Orthodox without making qualifications about how it is "jumbled together" with Anabaptism, but I feel like calling you a syncretist was out of line. You're right to be concerned about these kind of things. I just hope you (and all of us) keep in mind to see the planks in our own eyes first.

Thank you.

I always try to see the planks in my own eye.  Understand though that ecumenism is a VERY personal subject to me.  It destroyed me as a person, and greatly hurt me.
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« Reply #467 on: June 04, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »

Hey, I have been to Ecumenical Vespers Services with Archbishop Sypridon and other World Orthodoxy Bishops. I have seen what goes on with the program in hand.

Am I lynching anyone? That is a real exaggeration.

No, I am just informing the good people of the Ecumenical Emotional High that prevents the participants from seeing how one can give scandal at such an event, that prevents the soul from seeing the diabolical temptation that is taking place as free hugs are passed around, and that renders the will helpless to resist any efforts to flee before it is too late.

People understand that I have no idea who Maria is.  But apparently she has been to ecumenical Vespers, and HATES it.

I have been to WCC events, and I tell you that they are wicked, evil, and wrong.  Completely unorthodox.  Here you have two people, experienced in witnessing ecumenism first hand who are avidly against ecumenism.

That's why I encourage everybody to actually go to an event, I think it will be an eye opener.
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« Reply #468 on: June 04, 2012, 11:04:58 AM »

YOU HAVE A WORLD ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN GETTING ANOINTED BY A HERETICAL ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!

The word "to anoint" implies the usage of oil. Once again, it was water and a symbolical gesture as a reminder of baptism.

First line on Wikipedia "Anoint"
To anoint is to pour or smear with perfumed oil, milk, water, melted butter or other substances, a process employed ritually by many religions.

Anyway its really besides the point.  Was it "holy water"?
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« Reply #469 on: June 04, 2012, 11:17:34 AM »

And why do some people here, especially PtA, feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?
Now you're putting words into my mouth, Maria, for I never said that. I recognize that Metropolitan Augustine may have done something deserving of excommunication/deposition. I just think you and yeshuaisiam and a few others have been far too quick to lynch His Beatitude without first allowing him a fair trial.

PtA, please brother, understand...  Since Maria has said she has been to an ecumenical vespers, and I have been to WCC events, its an incredibly touchy subject.   The WCC events that I have been to were incredibly unorthodox.  Very heretical, very pagan, very involving of many faiths.  Complete disrespect for the Orthodox faith & sacraments.   The videos I posted honestly do not even scratch the surface.  If you ever go to one of these events, the overwhelming feeling and atmosphere will blow you away brother.

You'll see your clergy, sometimes bishops, in direct prayer with all kinds of faiths.  They have relics and artifacts present (antimins) that are grabbed & touched by tribal people (no kidding).  Liturgy is held right after Austrailian pagan tribal worship.  I mean the stage lights in the tents are still warm, people barely cleared out after tribal worship, and liturgy begins.  Some tribal guys hang out and watch, directly in the presence of the Eucharist in their G-Strings.

I mean brother...  When I see stuff like this, I lash out.  I am very quick to lash out at anything that reminds me of those events, which the photos & videos of the Metropolitan does.

I do believe the Metropolitan should have a fair trial on the issue.  But since ecumenism runs in very high places, even up to the ranks of Patriarchs, I immediately must take a stand.  I am not sure a fair trial would exist when many involved with a trial would also be ecumenists.

It's a defense mechanism.  He does deserve a trial though, but unless he is deposed for his actions, I would not respect the outcome.  If he is deposed, I would be sad, but feel that the right thing was done.

I hate this stuff.... Ecumenism...  What the heck kind of business does any EO Christian have with interfaith anything?  Either convert or shake the dust is the way I would understand things should be.
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« Reply #470 on: June 04, 2012, 12:17:06 PM »

And why do some people here, especially PtA, feel obligated to represent Metropolitan Augustine as a poor fellow who made a mistake?
Now you're putting words into my mouth, Maria, for I never said that. I recognize that Metropolitan Augustine may have done something deserving of excommunication/deposition. I just think you and yeshuaisiam and a few others have been far too quick to lynch His Beatitude without first allowing him a fair trial.

PtA, please brother, understand...  Since Maria has said she has been to an ecumenical vespers, and I have been to WCC events, its an incredibly touchy subject.   The WCC events that I have been to were incredibly unorthodox.  Very heretical, very pagan, very involving of many faiths.  Complete disrespect for the Orthodox faith & sacraments.   The videos I posted honestly do not even scratch the surface.  If you ever go to one of these events, the overwhelming feeling and atmosphere will blow you away brother.

You'll see your clergy, sometimes bishops, in direct prayer with all kinds of faiths.  They have relics and artifacts present (antimins) that are grabbed & touched by tribal people (no kidding).  Liturgy is held right after Austrailian pagan tribal worship.  I mean the stage lights in the tents are still warm, people barely cleared out after tribal worship, and liturgy begins.  Some tribal guys hang out and watch, directly in the presence of the Eucharist in their G-Strings.

I mean brother...  When I see stuff like this, I lash out.  I am very quick to lash out at anything that reminds me of those events, which the photos & videos of the Metropolitan does.
That sounds like a personal problem to me. I understand that what you have seen has made you very emotional, but that does not justify your irrational quickness to judge a bishop of the Body of Christ.

I do believe the Metropolitan should have a fair trial on the issue.  But since ecumenism runs in very high places, even up to the ranks of Patriarchs, I immediately must take a stand.  I am not sure a fair trial would exist when many involved with a trial would also be ecumenists.
I'm not sure His Beatitude would receive a fair trial if those hearing his case were anti-ecumenist hawks like you, either.

It's a defense mechanism.  He does deserve a trial though, but unless he is deposed for his actions, I would not respect the outcome.
Then you have already tried him in your own mind and found him guilty. That is NOT a fair trial.

If he is deposed, I would be sad, but feel that the right thing was done.

I hate this stuff.... Ecumenism...  What the heck kind of business does any EO Christian have with interfaith anything?  Either convert or shake the dust is the way I would understand things should be.
Regardless of how valid your emotional response may be, don't let it rob you of all rational thought and discernment. That's all I ask of you.
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« Reply #471 on: June 04, 2012, 01:12:52 PM »

I've been lurking in this thread and this is my conclusion. For whatever positives there may be in ecumenism, I think it is clear that the scandal it causes to Orthodox people outweighs the benefits. Our bishops should be more concerned how their own flock views them than how other religious leaders view them.

And I really do think it's all about perceptions. Nobody is actually considering changing what their church/religion teaches—if they did, they'd be thrown out in an instant. It's all about having good feelings and a nice veneer with no substance beneath it. It's public relations to fit with the social dogma of pluralism.

But what's more important, the view of society or the view of the faithful? I would say society has neither the grounds nor the discernment to judge how we choose to do things, so what's the point of all this? How many people have become Orthodox through these events? Why have these gatherings in the Star Wars Cantina of religion, when our own bishops have so many disagreements to work out among themselves?

Let's work on our internal problems and let the dead bury their own dead.
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« Reply #472 on: June 04, 2012, 02:22:59 PM »

In praying with the heretics, we make their heretical prayers our own, and by so doing we risk adopting their heretical beliefs even subtly and without clear knowledge of what we're doing.

Alright, I am waiting for you to show any heretical prayer text that actually was prayed by Met. Augustine.

Heresy is a deviation from the faith of the Apostles, a teaching and preaching of a gospel different from what the Apostles preached.
Invoking the Apostles on this issue probably isn't a good idea. I mean, didn't they pray in the temple, together with people who didn't even believe in Jesus Christ?

I like your answers.  Wink
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« Reply #473 on: June 04, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »

In praying with the heretics, we make their heretical prayers our own, and by so doing we risk adopting their heretical beliefs even subtly and without clear knowledge of what we're doing.

Alright, I am waiting for you to show any heretical prayer text that actually was prayed by Met. Augustine.

Heresy is a deviation from the faith of the Apostles, a teaching and preaching of a gospel different from what the Apostles preached.
Invoking the Apostles on this issue probably isn't a good idea. I mean, didn't they pray in the temple, together with people who didn't even believe in Jesus Christ?

I like your answers.  Wink
Except that they're not at all relevant to anything I said, which even Gorazd himself later acknowledged. Wink
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« Reply #474 on: June 04, 2012, 02:55:06 PM »

PtA,

I just meant to say that my answers did not take into account your earlier posts, but they were answering only to that particular post.

One more point to Maria et al.: I think it's better to be in the Church and pray with schismatics than to be a schismatic yourself. You and any other human being are welcome to become a part of the canonical Orthodox Church, the true body of Christ. But the way to that is through repentance, not through judgementalism and self-righteousness.
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« Reply #475 on: June 04, 2012, 03:00:15 PM »

Hey, I have been to Ecumenical Vespers Services with Archbishop Sypridon and other World Orthodoxy Bishops. I have seen what goes on with the program in hand.

Am I lynching anyone? That is a real exaggeration.

No, I am just informing the good people of the Ecumenical Emotional High that prevents the participants from seeing how one can give scandal at such an event, that prevents the soul from seeing the diabolical temptation that is taking place as free hugs are passed around, and that renders the will helpless to resist any efforts to flee before it is too late.

 

The Holy Spirit enlightens a person and gives them strength.  If someone can be tempted so easily, then their faith can't be very strong.  Just imagine if the Apostles and the saints kept away from pagans, would Christianity even exist today?  Besides, God has given everyone a free choice.  If people are told to keep away from thoughts that differ from their own, then wouldn't  that be a form of brain washing?  Certainly Christ never intended for us to become brain washed.  If he did, then all we would have to do to enter His Kingdom is do what the Muslims do, memorize our Bible and follow a list of do's and don't.  angel

 
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« Reply #476 on: June 04, 2012, 03:51:35 PM »

I didn't make the rules, I read the rules.  The Canon of the Holy Apostles clearly states that any clergy worshiping with heretics is to be deposed.

Except that's not what it says.

Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated:  but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

 
One who prays with heretics is to be excommunicated. There seems little question that the Metropolitan did that--(though honestly, I'm not sure if anyone's actually discussed it, they've spent so much time on the 'baptismal remembrance or whatever it is).

Deposition is only mandated for letting the heretic 'perform any clerical office'. And the canon doesn't define that term. Obviously, if the Metropolitan had allowed the Latin bishop to baptize him, or chrismate him, or give him communion, then this part of the canon would apply. But per all the accounts, that's not what happened. Rather, the Metropolitan allowed the Latin bishop to make a cross on his forehead (with holy oil? holy water?) as a 'reminder/remembrance of his baptism'. There is no clerical office/function/rite of 'reminder of baptism'. So I'm not at all sure the latter half of the canon is applicable (which is part of why the canons actually require canonical courts by properly ordained bishops to make such determinations).

There's not a canon against 'engaging in odd non-rituals with heretics' which seems to be what actually happened.


Forget the canons and let's look at it theologically.
Not a good way to start a paragraph on this forum. We can ask that the canons be enforced strictly or ask that some level of oikonomia be employed, but we do not get to throw them out and forget them in favor of your subjective, private interpretation of Tradition.

My private interpretations might be contrary to your interpretations of the canons, but I doubt if they are contrary to God and He is my only concern. 

Quote
If a cleric is praying to our Triune God with a cleric of another faith that is also praying to the same Triune God, then wouldn't the  refusal to pray stem from personal pride and arrogance towards one's own faith since the recipient of the prayers happens to be our same Triune God?
No. Have you heard of lex orandi, lex credendi? We pray what we believe, and we believe what we pray. In praying with the heretics, we make their heretical prayers our own, and by so doing we risk adopting their heretical beliefs even subtly and without clear knowledge of what we're doing. One of our prime objectives as Orthodox Christians is to preserve the fullness of our faith against any stain or perversion, which means that we must seek to avoid pollution by the leaven of heresies.

Are they heretics? 

Quote
Now I'm not thinking about the Catholic Church when I say this because I personally don't consider them heretics just  because the Pope decided to raise his position above the other Patriarchs.
Since when does your personal opinion on this issue matter?

It matters to me because God has given me a free will.

Quote
I'm thinking of the Churches that have this 'everything is relative morality' such as the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc., and who are truly heretics.
And... by declaring that Roman Catholics and others outside the Church preach the same truth we Orthodox do, and by judging as arrogant our insistence on preserving the fullness of the true Orthodox Faith by refusing to pray with heretics, you have shown that you share the relativism of the Episcopalian and Presbyterian heretics.

This might surprise you, but I don't share that relativism...So tell me now, how many Orthodox do you know that can say that in all honesty without excusing themselves by using the label of 'economia'?   

Quote
Anyway even within those faiths, there are more conservative movements and more liberal ones, so to say that everyone within these Churches has fallen into heresy and is therefore away from God would be a little farfetched.
Not at all. Heresy is not defined in relation to your own conceptions of truth; rather, heresy is defined in relation to the Apostolic doctrines preserved in and taught by the Orthodox Church.

Tell me the exact words?

Quote
I can go even further and say that I know many clergy within my Church that are truly far from God,
And you know this how?

You can't even imagine what I know.  But then again you might and could care less. 

Quote
and yet I and others pray with them and have received the sacraments from them.
Heresy is not a measure of how close or far one is to/from God. Heresy is a deviation from the faith of the Apostles, a teaching and preaching of a gospel different from what the Apostles preached.

And what pray tell is the purpose of teaching and preaching the Gospel if it's not to attain Theosis and be with God?  What you're saying makes no sense what so ever.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #477 on: June 04, 2012, 04:01:50 PM »

PtA,

I just meant to say that my answers did not take into account your earlier posts, but they were answering only to that particular post.

One more point to Maria et al.: I think it's better to be in the Church and pray with schismatics than to be a schismatic yourself. You and any other human being are welcome to become a part of the canonical Orthodox Church, the true body of Christ. But the way to that is through repentance, not through judgementalism and self-righteousness.

It is the inconsistency of our World Orthodox bishops that prevents me from returning to the so-called "canonical" church.

For example, a person I knew was excommunicated for visiting an MJ church and for partaking in their Passover services. Note that she did not take communion at the MJ church. Apparently Ecumenism is not tolerated in the laity. Yet the bishop who excommunicated her attends events with Catholics and even with Muslims. Does anyone wonder why that gal was confused? Look to her bishop where he participates in Ecumenical events, but heavily penances/excommunicates any member of the laity who would dare do what he does.

When visiting an ROCOR church for the veneration of a miraculous Icon of the Theotokos back in 2009, I noticed that instead of reverently processing into the church while carrying this holy Icon, the deacons, priests, and bishops were gazing suspiciously at all the people. Later, I found out that a "schismatic" ROCOR priest was also in attendance hoping to venerate said icon. Note that this priest did not make any kind of disturbance, and was quietly praying. Nevertheless, as soon as he was recognized, he was ushered outside by deacons and beaten up.

A bishop in World Orthodoxy preached a keynote address in which he urged the Serbian people to demonstrate for their rights. Note that he did not stress prayer and repentance at all.

Events like the above and many others, especially the sermons of these World Orthodox Bishops who joked and who were not stressing holiness of life, convinced me to seek out the priests and hierarchs of the GOC/HOTCA.

Again, as has been stressed by members of World Orthodoxy and True Orthodox alike, if the Bishops of World Orthodoxy would come to their senses, avoid the Ecumenical Movement, return to the Traditions of our Holy Fathers, become sober, and pray and repent themselves, then our factions within Holy Orthodoxy might be healed.  Lord have mercy.

And there are hierarchs of World Orthodox who are sober, watchful, and who would love to solve this problem. They have been advised by their Archbishop/Patriarch not to rock the boat, but instead shave their beards, not wear the frock, but wear what Catholic Priests wear (suits and Roman collars). Why are the hierarchs and priests told not to wear frocks, beards, and long hair as did our fore fathers? Why this stress on modernism? Why should our Orthodox Hierarchs look more like Catholic prelates and priests?

This is the result of modernism and ecumenism.

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« Reply #478 on: June 04, 2012, 05:37:39 PM »

Hello Jah,

I've read with much interest what you say about Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina. I don't put into doubt your good character, but some facts are  doubtful.

The first thing I suspect is some propaganda from new calendarists. Indeed, typically newspapers telling that someone said or thought such thing after 1950 seems to me rather doubtful. In many cases, newspapers and people reporting the words of other people twist it for partisan purpose.

It is all the more suspect for me because Metropolitant Chrysostomus never returned to the state church, which would have been logival if he thought what you said he thought. Moreover, of course he did not ordain new bishops being a single bishop (2 bishops are needed) but he asks before dying to his flock to join the matthewites that holds the view state church is graceless. So all this is not logical with what you're saying.

Just a remark, the old calendar church was not founded in 1935 by 3 bishops. It existed since the schism by the new calendarists with faithfuls refusing the innovation made to foster ecumenism. New calendar was in fact the first manifestation of ecumenism or one of the first although ecumenism at that time was not clearly defined...
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« Reply #479 on: June 04, 2012, 06:04:46 PM »

I think it's better to be in the Church and pray with schismatics than to be a schismatic yourself.

Well someone in the church and deliberately disobeying the Church teachings like praying with heretics will be severely punished by God, I think. Maybe harsher that someone who is out of the Church in good faith... Maybe the former will be punished for having scandalized faithfuls and led them to schismatic entities while the latter will be forgiven due to their simple minds... I'm just thinking as could do someone in world orthodoxy.

By the way, Gorazd, since you're in Germany, could you tell if Metropolitan Augustine had mane any declaration, what is the feeling of people towards the topic (indifferent, interested, shocked etc). I could find no evidence of the question being brought upon the synod in the Phanar... When are new development expected?
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« Reply #480 on: June 04, 2012, 06:25:52 PM »

The canons are not mechanical laws, but a guidance. In fact, the question of praying with the non-orthodox is subject to ikonomia.

There are canons calling to defrock priests present at wedding receptions. Should we apply that to the letter as well, or what?

Considering that St. John Chrysostom urges couples to invite the clergy to their wedding receptions to make for a less Bachanalian atmosphere, the canon may mean something a bit different.
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« Reply #481 on: June 04, 2012, 06:30:24 PM »

The canons are not mechanical laws, but a guidance. In fact, the question of praying with the non-orthodox is subject to ikonomia.

There are canons calling to defrock priests present at wedding receptions. Should we apply that to the letter as well, or what?

Considering that St. John Chrysostom urges couples to invite the clergy to their wedding receptions to make for a less Bachanalian atmosphere, the canon may mean something a bit different.

You are right, what is forbidden is to celebrate weddings with dances. There is a good homely of Saint Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain about this. None should do so even laymen and if that occurs, priests should leave.
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« Reply #482 on: June 04, 2012, 06:31:31 PM »

The canons are not mechanical laws, but a guidance. In fact, the question of praying with the non-orthodox is subject to ikonomia.

There are canons calling to defrock priests present at wedding receptions. Should we apply that to the letter as well, or what?

Considering that St. John Chrysostom urges couples to invite the clergy to their wedding receptions to make for a less Bachanalian atmosphere, the canon may mean something a bit different.

You are right, what is forbidden is to celebrate weddings with dances. There is a good homely of Saint Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain about this. None should do so even laymen and if that occurs, priests should leave.

Um, there's no dancing at wedding receptions?  Huh  Shocked What?
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« Reply #483 on: June 04, 2012, 06:32:30 PM »

YOU HAVE A WORLD ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN GETTING ANOINTED BY A HERETICAL ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!

The word "to anoint" implies the usage of oil. Once again, it was water and a symbolical gesture as a reminder of baptism.

Yet, I cannot think of a good reason why anyone should be doing this. What is the actual purpose? Who gains?
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« Reply #484 on: June 04, 2012, 06:34:09 PM »

I've heard of priests not dancing at weddings, but not non-clergy. In any event, if you play Styper, like we did at our wedding, there isn't a ton of dancing going on anyway  Grin
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« Reply #485 on: June 04, 2012, 06:35:09 PM »

I've heard of priests not dancing at weddings, but not non-clergy. In any event, if you play Styper, like we did at our wedding, there isn't a ton of dancing going on anyway  Grin

Okay. I was hoping I read JS wrong.
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« Reply #486 on: June 04, 2012, 06:36:51 PM »

The canons are not mechanical laws, but a guidance. In fact, the question of praying with the non-orthodox is subject to ikonomia.

There are canons calling to defrock priests present at wedding receptions. Should we apply that to the letter as well, or what?

Considering that St. John Chrysostom urges couples to invite the clergy to their wedding receptions to make for a less Bachanalian atmosphere, the canon may mean something a bit different.

You are right, what is forbidden is to celebrate weddings with dances. There is a good homely of Saint Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain about this. None should do so even laymen and if that occurs, priests should leave.

Most priests I have seen do not dance for the reason that they are priests.

But, I think it's important to put the canons in context. The dances happening 1500 years ago at weddings were lewd dances, not waltzes or minuets or anything out of Jane Austen. Granted, that some/most non-Orthodox wedding receptions have returned to ancient practice should not serve as a blanket condemnation. The context is important.
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« Reply #487 on: June 04, 2012, 06:49:52 PM »

When visiting an ROCOR church for the veneration of a miraculous Icon of the Theotokos back in 2009, I noticed that instead of reverently processing into the church while carrying this holy Icon, the deacons, priests, and bishops were gazing suspiciously at all the people. Later, I found out that a "schismatic" ROCOR priest was also in attendance hoping to venerate said icon. Note that this priest did not make any kind of disturbance, and was quietly praying. Nevertheless, as soon as he was recognized, he was ushered outside by deacons and beaten up.

And that wasn't been reported anywhere on all the True Orthodox websites?
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« Reply #488 on: June 04, 2012, 07:00:18 PM »

I think it's funny when somebody thinks they know you better than you do.

So I get the syncretism label by you, mockingly called "my own patriarch", but then you I take it go to world Orthodoxy, where the World Orthodox Bishop gets anointed by the RC's.  

I think the label you've given me is incredibly ironic.  

Perhaps the Metropolitan could interest you in a wafer!  He's already been anointed & you probably are in communion with him.  In fact, he was anointed by a guy who was anointed by a priestess.   You could also go to a WCC meet, and enjoy a nice time with a tribal cleansing ceremony right before the divine liturgy.  You may even get free war ash paint, and watch men in tribal G-strings prance in front of the relics of the antimins and Eucharist.   (Oh wait I forgot, I have a few faith issues...  and I'm the one who is thought to be practicing syncretism...).

Of course, you could also come off the personal rampage against me you are on, realize what is happening, use common sense and AT LEAST condemn the Metropolitan's actions! Or better yet, stop being in communion with the heretics that practice ecumenism and join an Orthodox bishop who is against it such as a HOTCA bishop.

If you're that determined with HOTCA, why not start a mission parish?  You have at least 7 members; you might even be ordained a Priest.  Only problem is will the Hutterites allow you to start a church that is opposite to their belief system?   Huh
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« Reply #489 on: June 04, 2012, 07:23:42 PM »

I didn't make the rules, I read the rules.  The Canon of the Holy Apostles clearly states that any clergy worshiping with heretics is to be deposed.

Except that's not what it says.

Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated:  but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

 
One who prays with heretics is to be excommunicated. There seems little question that the Metropolitan did that--(though honestly, I'm not sure if anyone's actually discussed it, they've spent so much time on the 'baptismal remembrance or whatever it is).

Deposition is only mandated for letting the heretic 'perform any clerical office'. And the canon doesn't define that term. Obviously, if the Metropolitan had allowed the Latin bishop to baptize him, or chrismate him, or give him communion, then this part of the canon would apply. But per all the accounts, that's not what happened. Rather, the Metropolitan allowed the Latin bishop to make a cross on his forehead (with holy oil? holy water?) as a 'reminder/remembrance of his baptism'. There is no clerical office/function/rite of 'reminder of baptism'. So I'm not at all sure the latter half of the canon is applicable (which is part of why the canons actually require canonical courts by properly ordained bishops to make such determinations).

There's not a canon against 'engaging in odd non-rituals with heretics' which seems to be what actually happened.


Forget the canons and let's look at it theologically.
Not a good way to start a paragraph on this forum. We can ask that the canons be enforced strictly or ask that some level of oikonomia be employed, but we do not get to throw them out and forget them in favor of your subjective, private interpretation of Tradition.

My private interpretations might be contrary to your interpretations of the canons, but I doubt if they are contrary to God and He is my only concern.
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« Reply #490 on: June 04, 2012, 10:08:20 PM »

When visiting an ROCOR church for the veneration of a miraculous Icon of the Theotokos back in 2009, I noticed that instead of reverently processing into the church while carrying this holy Icon, the deacons, priests, and bishops were gazing suspiciously at all the people. Later, I found out that a "schismatic" ROCOR priest was also in attendance hoping to venerate said icon. Note that this priest did not make any kind of disturbance, and was quietly praying. Nevertheless, as soon as he was recognized, he was ushered outside by deacons and beaten up.

And that wasn't been reported anywhere on all the True Orthodox websites?

No, the priest did not report the incident to the police, but humbly left.
I will not return to that ROCOR-MP church. Ever.
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« Reply #491 on: June 04, 2012, 10:16:16 PM »

I think it's funny when somebody thinks they know you better than you do.

So I get the syncretism label by you, mockingly called "my own patriarch", but then you I take it go to world Orthodoxy, where the World Orthodox Bishop gets anointed by the RC's.  

I think the label you've given me is incredibly ironic.  

Perhaps the Metropolitan could interest you in a wafer!  He's already been anointed & you probably are in communion with him.  In fact, he was anointed by a guy who was anointed by a priestess.   You could also go to a WCC meet, and enjoy a nice time with a tribal cleansing ceremony right before the divine liturgy.  You may even get free war ash paint, and watch men in tribal G-strings prance in front of the relics of the antimins and Eucharist.   (Oh wait I forgot, I have a few faith issues...  and I'm the one who is thought to be practicing syncretism...).

Of course, you could also come off the personal rampage against me you are on, realize what is happening, use common sense and AT LEAST condemn the Metropolitan's actions! Or better yet, stop being in communion with the heretics that practice ecumenism and join an Orthodox bishop who is against it such as a HOTCA bishop.

If you're that determined with HOTCA, why not start a mission parish?  You have at least 7 members; you might even be ordained a Priest.  Only problem is will the Hutterites allow you to start a church that is opposite to their belief system?   Huh

Actually, HOTCA has a lot of missions and would-be-missions, but too few priests.
Unlike some of those Western Rite Catholic-Anglican-Orthodox parishes where most of the parish are readers, deacons, and priests (women included), GOC/HOTCA Bishops do not ordain men to the priesthood on a whim. They are looking for a few good men who have a true calling to the Holy Priesthood.
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« Reply #492 on: June 04, 2012, 10:48:17 PM »

Actually, HOTCA has a lot of missions and would-be-missions, but too few priests.

Does HOTCA have seminaries in the USA other than Greece?  HOTCA clearly doesn't want to trust "Ecumenist" seminaries with training their clergy.

Unlike some of those Western Rite Catholic-Anglican-Orthodox parishes where most of the parish are readers, deacons, and priests (women included)

What Western Rite Orthodox parish has a woman priest?  I don't care for Catholic nor Anglican - stick to "world Orthodox" Western Rite parishes.

GOC/HOTCA Bishops do not ordain men to the priesthood on a whim. They are looking for a few good men who have a true calling to the Holy Priesthood.

yeshuaisiam comes across as someone who could be a decent HOTCA Priest (I would suggest Hierarchy; however, HOTCA doesn't allow for married Bishops).  Regardless, as long as HOTCA doesn't have issues with Jesus being called Yeshua.
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« Reply #493 on: June 05, 2012, 12:00:25 AM »

Actually, HOTCA has a lot of missions and would-be-missions, but too few priests.

Does HOTCA have seminaries in the USA other than Greece?  HOTCA clearly doesn't want to trust "Ecumenist" seminaries with training their clergy.

Unlike some of those Western Rite Catholic-Anglican-Orthodox parishes where most of the parish are readers, deacons, and priests (women included)

What Western Rite Orthodox parish has a woman priest?  I don't care for Catholic nor Anglican - stick to "world Orthodox" Western Rite parishes.

GOC/HOTCA Bishops do not ordain men to the priesthood on a whim. They are looking for a few good men who have a true calling to the Holy Priesthood.

yeshuaisiam comes across as someone who could be a decent HOTCA Priest (I would suggest Hierarchy; however, HOTCA doesn't allow for married Bishops).  Regardless, as long as HOTCA doesn't have issues with Jesus being called Yeshua.

I should have enclosed Orthodox in quotes. There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.

Incidentally, some of these American Western Rite "Orthodox Christians" have practices and vestments that are closer to Orthodoxy than the Protestants who were pictured in that photo with Met. Augustine. How would you guys feel if Met. Augustine were to be pictured amongst this crowd of wanna-be "Orthodox Christians?" Would that be more acceptable since they almost look like the real thing?

Now, what about Bishop Drapery Rod? I will not mention his real name as he is quite crazy about Sue, if you get my drift. He received the pseudonym of "Drapery Rod" after he posted a picture of himself holding a drapery rod instead of a real staff.

As I see it, ecumenism, no matter how you picture it, is wrong.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 12:21:59 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #494 on: June 05, 2012, 12:15:15 AM »

Quote from: Maria
There are quite a few American Western Rite "Orthodox" parishes that are neither Orthodox nor Western Rite, but cafeteria "Christians" who believe in the female priesthood and episcopacy, liturgical revolutions, gay "Holy Unions", and other abnormalities that would make most sincere Orthodox Christians shake their heads if not vomit. We have one of these "Orthodox" churches about 20 minutes from our home, where the church is headed by a married heterosexual couple, both of whom serve as bishops.


Are you sure these aren't vagante, non-canonical people who have just given themselves a similar name? I don't know of any actual Western Rite Orthodox parishes which condone women priests.
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