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Author Topic: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons  (Read 13993 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jean-Serge
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« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 03:22:11 PM »

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


You have the choice between accepting the view of the Church expressed by the canons or adopt your own personal views even if they are contrary to those of the Church. Why should we take into account your personal experience? Is not this pride to support a view contradicting the view of the Church with your particular experience? Are you a saint to put forward your personal experience? Haven't you heard about spiritual delusion?
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« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2012, 03:23:53 PM »

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless?  

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided

Well Zenovia blessings and mysteries from the heretics are in fact curses and spiritually dangerous. We could say, a spiritual poison. Here are some orthodox quotations proving this :

1° Saint Theodore the Studite called the communion of heretics, food of demons

If we read the canons and their commentary, this is also confirmed. The canon 32 of Laodicea says :


32. That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather misfortunes than blessings.

Interpretation (by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorithe)

According to the present Canon no Christian ought to accept blessings from heretics, since they are not blessings, but rather misfortunes. See also Ap. c. XLV.

What people may have have done or do out of ignorance is not an excuse for contemporary bad behaviours.

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


Just a hint: When you see us jokingly making a big deal about "cannon" vs. "canon", that's a clue that you're spelling "canon" incorrectly.
  • canon = a rule guiding the Church's self governance
  • cannon = a piece of artillery used in war to attack your enemy's position
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 03:24:19 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2012, 03:44:09 PM »

 I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.

As long as they weren't doctors you should be ok...
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« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2012, 04:36:36 PM »

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

Well, to be heretic, one does not need to be declared heretic by an ecumenical council. For example, marcionism was condemned by a local council. Arianism was first locally condemned by a local council. Latin doctrines have been condemned by different councils :

- Photian council of 879
- Palamite councils in the 14th century
- the encyclics from the Eastern patriarchs reconfirmed again the heretic nature of catholicism
- many saints confirms this too

Regarding the WCC, I don't know its chart but one can be christian and heretic at the same time because heretics are christians who deviate on a certain point.

Look I don't know Orthodox theology and where it differs from the RCC other than in semantics, but I do know that Saint Nektarios had discourses with a Latin Cardinal and found they were wrong in something and I do have the greatest respect for Saint Nektarios.    I don't know where he found they were wrong, but I do know that we consider the two Catholic dogmas regarding our Theotokos incomplete and therefore not in error.  Also Saint Gregory Palamas said that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.

Saints though can be wrong, since they are products of a specific culture and time.  Also human beings are limited, so  God can only give people the amount of knowledge needed for their spiritual welfare  within the time and place they live in.  I'm sure this has caused a great deal  of  friction between faiths but God separated people culturally with the Tower of Bable so He never really intended  us to be the same and to see things the same way.  

As for Saint Gregory Palamas, he was fighting the heresy of Barlaam and from what I gathered he assumed it was related to the scholasticism of Saint Thomas Aquinas.  Yes the heresy might have been an outcome in the same way that Islam was  an outcome of Christianity, but it had nothing to do with the heresy that Saint Gregory was fighting.  That was merely a misinterpretation by the Greeks.

Look these theological matters are beyond me, and frankly I have no concern for details.  All I know is that when something is translated into Latin its whole context changes, so does that mean that Latin should be thrown out considering that:  All Grace Comes From God, and He gives it to those that ask for it?  Does it really matter how we ask for it?  Wouldn't that make one culture and people superior to another and isn't that 'elitism'?  And to go further, isn't elitism akin to 'pride', and doesn't all sin come from pride?
How is it prideful to seek to know and proclaim only the Truth?

The Truth should never be diminished, but we are humans and as such are wrapped around ourselves, making it hard to separate the 'Truth' from self love.   Because of that we become dependant on authorities such as our Church to do it for us.  A good example of how wrapped up we are in ourselves, is how we feel close to God within the context of our own cultural environment... such as the church music we were raised with, our own traditional way of worship, etc.

In contrast to the RCC, the Orthodox Church was always able to adapt to different cultures, but in our Western world and the threat imposed on the OC by other Christian faiths who have their own traditions, we seem to have forgotten this.  Not that it matters to us, since most Orthodox want to uphold their traditions, but it does diminish  the traditions that other Christian faiths hold dear.

Anyway this has nothing to do with theological 'Truths'.  Truths are things that can only be discussed by minds much higher than mine.   Wink   

 
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« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2012, 04:41:11 PM »

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless?  

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided

Well Zenovia blessings and mysteries from the heretics are in fact curses and spiritually dangerous. We could say, a spiritual poison. Here are some orthodox quotations proving this :

1° Saint Theodore the Studite called the communion of heretics, food of demons

If we read the canons and their commentary, this is also confirmed. The canon 32 of Laodicea says :


32. That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather misfortunes than blessings.

Interpretation (by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorithe)

According to the present Canon no Christian ought to accept blessings from heretics, since they are not blessings, but rather misfortunes. See also Ap. c. XLV.

What people may have have done or do out of ignorance is not an excuse for contemporary bad behaviours.

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


Just a hint: When you see us jokingly making a big deal about "cannon" vs. "canon", that's a clue that you're spelling "canon" incorrectly.
  • canon = a rule guiding the Church's self governance
  • cannon = a piece of artillery used in war to attack your enemy's position

Thanks for the correction, I should have realized it...but then again I'm a terrible speller, something I attribute to the computer.  Words look different on it. Cheesy
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2012, 04:44:39 PM »

 I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.

As long as they weren't doctors you should be ok...

They weren't! Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2012, 04:51:36 PM »

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


You have the choice between accepting the view of the Church expressed by the canons or adopt your own personal views even if they are contrary to those of the Church. Why should we take into account your personal experience? Is not this pride to support a view contradicting the view of the Church with your particular experience? Are you a saint to put forward your personal experience? Haven't you heard about spiritual delusion?

I'm sure the Elder Porphyrios wasn't referring only to Christians when he said it, after all he knows well that true Christians would never allow their negative 'passions' to control them.  It was meant for all of us lesser beings, whether we were given the Grace of baptism or not.   Smiley

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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2012, 04:56:21 PM »

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


You have the choice between accepting the view of the Church expressed by the canons or adopt your own personal views even if they are contrary to those of the Church. Why should we take into account your personal experience? Is not this pride to support a view contradicting the view of the Church with your particular experience? Are you a saint to put forward your personal experience? Haven't you heard about spiritual delusion?

I'm sure the Elder Porphyrios wasn't referring only to Christians when he said it, after all he knows well that true Christians would never allow their negative 'passions' to control them.  It was meant for all of us lesser beings, whether we were given the Grace of baptism or not.   Smiley



And I'm sure that it is far more likely that you are misunderstanding Elder Porphyrios than that the sainted man was disagreeing with the canons of the Church.
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2012, 05:24:22 PM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.

The "True Orthodox" are not Orthodox.  In imitation of Judas they have abandoned the sheepfold and betrayed Christ with a kiss.  They have no mysteries at all within them.  They bewail the Orthodox ecumenists for their interactions with the heterodox (and rightly so), but they are in schism and their spiritual state is no better than that of the heterodox they so despise.
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2012, 05:28:37 PM »

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Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons

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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2012, 06:28:04 PM »

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel


You have the choice between accepting the view of the Church expressed by the canons or adopt your own personal views even if they are contrary to those of the Church. Why should we take into account your personal experience? Is not this pride to support a view contradicting the view of the Church with your particular experience? Are you a saint to put forward your personal experience? Haven't you heard about spiritual delusion?

I'm sure the Elder Porphyrios wasn't referring only to Christians when he said it, after all he knows well that true Christians would never allow their negative 'passions' to control them.  It was meant for all of us lesser beings, whether we were given the Grace of baptism or not.   Smiley



And I'm sure that it is far more likely that you are misunderstanding Elder Porphyrios than that the sainted man was disagreeing with the canons of the Church.

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very pharaisical I should think.

Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraims monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No one's perfect.   Undecided 

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« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2012, 06:34:34 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very pharaisical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraims monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No one's perfect.   Undecided 

The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the churchn nor a saint.
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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2012, 01:00:46 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very pharaisical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraims monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No one's perfect.   Undecided 

The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the churchn nor a saint.

I think many people are trying to understand what is supposed to be truth which is often not clear although there should be enough clarity for the average layperson to know their faith. What seems most unclear here is that a bishop is having some serious allegations made against him & the integrity of the allegations seem suspect. What could be more canonical than questioning these accusations?
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2012, 01:08:05 PM »

I made no accusations and was simply stating the basic orthodox principle that is : "No blessings from heretics because it is a curse", thus responding to Zenobia's questions.

The case of the bishop is described in the former messages : they received a symbolic baptism, giving one to another... which is really ridiculous per se because ssymbolic baptism does not exist... But the one who should spoke is this bishop in Germany to explain what happened and so on because it is a subject of consternation and surprise in Greece...
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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2012, 03:11:47 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very Pharisaical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraim's monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No ones perfect.   Undecided 



The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the Church nor a saint.

Of course we shouldn't commune with heretics, but that's not my concern.  My concern is if the RCC and the Protestants are really heretics since they follow the Creed, or if they are simply incomplete and lack the fulfillment of the Orthodox Church towards Theosis?  I know some of the teachings of other Churches might not be as accurate as in the Orthodox Church, but then again how many people within the Orthodox Church know and follow all the correct teachings anyway?  Besides shouldn't God's Grace be sufficient?  How can we limit how or where God should give it? 

  As for everything being relative, I should think relativity would have more to do with the maintaining of ones morals and ethics as well as the very basic tenets of the Christian faith,  than whether or not we follow certain traditions.  Anyway I know I'm annoying you, so just ignore me.  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2012, 08:02:20 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very Pharisaical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraim's monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No ones perfect.   Undecided 



The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the Church nor a saint.

Of course we shouldn't commune with heretics, but that's not my concern.  My concern is if the RCC and the Protestants are really heretics since they follow the Creed, or if they are simply incomplete and lack the fulfillment of the Orthodox Church towards Theosis?  I know some of the teachings of other Churches might not be as accurate as in the Orthodox Church, but then again how many people within the Orthodox Church know and follow all the correct teachings anyway?  Besides shouldn't God's Grace be sufficient?  How can we limit how or where God should give it? 

  As for everything being relative, I should think relativity would have more to do with the maintaining of ones morals and ethics as well as the very basic tenets of the Christian faith,  than whether or not we follow certain traditions.  Anyway I know I'm annoying you, so just ignore me.  Wink
I've heard it said this way: If you're 99% orthodox and 1% heretic, you're still a heretic.
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« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2012, 09:41:40 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very Pharisaical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraim's monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No ones perfect.   Undecided 



The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the Church nor a saint.

Of course we shouldn't commune with heretics, but that's not my concern.  My concern is if the RCC and the Protestants are really heretics since they follow the Creed, or if they are simply incomplete and lack the fulfillment of the Orthodox Church towards Theosis?  I know some of the teachings of other Churches might not be as accurate as in the Orthodox Church, but then again how many people within the Orthodox Church know and follow all the correct teachings anyway?  Besides shouldn't God's Grace be sufficient?  How can we limit how or where God should give it? 

  As for everything being relative, I should think relativity would have more to do with the maintaining of ones morals and ethics as well as the very basic tenets of the Christian faith,  than whether or not we follow certain traditions.  Anyway I know I'm annoying you, so just ignore me.  Wink
I've heard it said this way: If you're 99% orthodox and 1% heretic, you're still a heretic.

Calling someone a heretic is merely labelling them and I don't believe in labelling.  My question is what constitutes a heresy?  Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them.  Well I've known many pure hearted people in these so called Christian heresies and some exceptionally cruel Orthodox.  I'm excluding non Christians in this, because they seem to lack something all around.  I'm simply talking about baptized Christians of other denominations, regardless of what their traditions are or how full their faith is.

Anyway this has nothing to do with the Orthodox faith, which I consider a more advanced or complete path to Theosis...if it's followed correctly in it's true form and meaning.    Wink

   
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« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2012, 09:47:46 PM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very Pharisaical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraim's monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No ones perfect.   Undecided 



The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the Church nor a saint.

Of course we shouldn't commune with heretics, but that's not my concern.  My concern is if the RCC and the Protestants are really heretics since they follow the Creed, or if they are simply incomplete and lack the fulfillment of the Orthodox Church towards Theosis?  I know some of the teachings of other Churches might not be as accurate as in the Orthodox Church, but then again how many people within the Orthodox Church know and follow all the correct teachings anyway?  Besides shouldn't God's Grace be sufficient?  How can we limit how or where God should give it? 

  As for everything being relative, I should think relativity would have more to do with the maintaining of ones morals and ethics as well as the very basic tenets of the Christian faith,  than whether or not we follow certain traditions.  Anyway I know I'm annoying you, so just ignore me.  Wink
I've heard it said this way: If you're 99% orthodox and 1% heretic, you're still a heretic.

Calling someone a heretic is merely labelling them and I don't believe in labelling.  My question is what constitutes a heresy?  Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them.  Well I've known many pure hearted people in these so called Christian heresies and some exceptionally cruel Orthodox.  I'm excluding non Christians in this, because they seem to lack something all around.  I'm simply talking about baptized Christians of other denominations, regardless of what their traditions are or how full their faith is.

Anyway this has nothing to do with the Orthodox faith, which I consider a more advanced or complete path to Theosis...if it's followed correctly in it's true form and meaning.    Wink

   

So I guess you deny the label 'Christian' and the label 'Orthodox' and the label 'human;' the refusal to label is a refusal to believe in the existence of discernible truth; the refusal to believe in the existence of discernible truth is heresy.
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« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2012, 01:52:36 AM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kind-hearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.
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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2012, 02:11:37 PM »

This is a really sad thing. I would doubt however, as was said above, that the Metropolitan has excommunicated himself, in light of the Ecumenical Patriarch's public prayer habits........

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« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2012, 06:18:37 PM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not! As for the veneration of icons, it is a tradition that was needed in the Greek world but maybe not in the Germanic.  (I try to have a Christian understanding towards others).

 The belief that an icon is  a graven image is a misinterpretation, but I still don't think it can be considered a heresy since the Evangelicals have many good fruits, even though the fruits of the Muslims on the other hand, is not so good.  But I don't think that's related to their ban on graven images?   As for me personally, I believe a graven image is making an image of the demon we worship, such as money, power, prestige, fame, etc., etc.   Pagans always did, and the ancient Greeks went even further and gave them human form.  Kind of creative there!

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2012, 08:48:47 PM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.

Being drunk on judgment and self-righteousness is often difficult to distinguish from soberness.

Sheesh. No one is free from sin. One is holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2012, 08:55:41 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.


And when a lay person falsely accuses a bishop, outside an ecclesiastical court no less, they should be excommunicated. Right?

I made a general statement, not an accusation.

Recently there was an Eastern Bishop in Europe who was disciplined by his fellow bishops when he received communion in the Catholic Church. I remember there was a thread here at oc.net, but I cannot find it now.

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless?
Communion isn't merely a vehicle of God's sanctifying grace, it's also the supreme act of the worshiping Christian community, the act that makes the community what it is. The reception of communion in a non-Orthodox church is de facto an act of joining that community. It places you in communion with that heterodox church. How can one then be in communion with two communities that are estranged from each other? Such a divided spirit would be in and of itself dangerous to a person's soul.

+1

In addition, such an act of disobedience (as our Orthodox Bishops have advised against receiving communion with heretics) can and will cause scandal, which will especially affect those who are quietly looking into Orthodoxy and who witnesses an Orthodox believer receiving communion in a Catholic or Protestant church.
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2012, 09:44:59 PM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

Amazing. Is there any teaching of the Church that you are not wrong about?

If St. Gregory taught that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, he would be a heretic. However, he does not teach that.
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies
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« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2012, 01:21:33 AM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

Amazing. Is there any teaching of the Church that you are not wrong about?

If St. Gregory taught that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, he would be a heretic. However, he does not teach that.

It's in the book: Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite by the Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo.  It's a lovely book, especially in defining the role of our Theotokos and how she held the Creator of the world in her womb, and how no one can go to heaven, not even the saints unless it is through her.

Anything else you would like to know?  Wink





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« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2012, 01:28:52 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

I don't know anyone that follows the heresy of Arius, but Romney is a Mormon and that is a heresy...and guess what?  I hated what he did to Newt Gingrich in Iowa.  I don't believe a Christian could have done that.  Of course the good thing is that only a heretic like Romney could use the same cruel tactics as the other heretic Obama, (Wrights church), so he just might win.  At least I hope so.  Undecided
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« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2012, 01:32:59 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

I don't know anyone that follows the heresy of Arius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#Jehovah_and_Jesus_Christ
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« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2012, 01:34:33 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

Can I ask you something?  If the fruits of Christians are not better than the fruits of others, then how can Christians be better than anyone else?   Huh
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« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2012, 01:36:21 AM »

To take a harsh interpretation of a canon above the 'love' that should exist within a person's heart for a fellow man is very Pharisaical I should think.
Besides do you have any idea of how many canons exist in the Orthodox Church and how well they are followed by the average so called  'Orthodox' Christian?  And here I'm talking about canons that will help one achieve spiritual perfection, not canons that will do the opposite to those that are pre disposed.  If you really want to find out, best you visit an Elder in one of the Elder Ephraim's monastery and let him tell you.   For one, you are not allowed to receive the Eucharist without confession, not to mention following the Orthodox Fast days which exceed the non Fast days during the year, etc., etc. 

Anyway I don't follow a lot of them, although I have received dispensation on some foods.  No ones perfect.   Undecided 



The church fathers writing the canons took love into consideration. Those canons express true love. The problem is that our period makes a confusion between christian love and sentimentalism between christian love and relativism. The church fathers were wiser than you, the Church is wiser than you and being in the church is adopting its point of view and not picking such thing that suits you, rejecting this other because you don't like it.

You first asked why it was forbidden to commune with the heretics. We replied explaining : you can accept it or not but it is not worth arguing about this with your personal interpretation because you are neither the Church nor a saint.

Of course we shouldn't commune with heretics, but that's not my concern.  My concern is if the RCC and the Protestants are really heretics since they follow the Creed, or if they are simply incomplete and lack the fulfillment of the Orthodox Church towards Theosis?  I know some of the teachings of other Churches might not be as accurate as in the Orthodox Church, but then again how many people within the Orthodox Church know and follow all the correct teachings anyway?  Besides shouldn't God's Grace be sufficient?  How can we limit how or where God should give it? 

  As for everything being relative, I should think relativity would have more to do with the maintaining of ones morals and ethics as well as the very basic tenets of the Christian faith,  than whether or not we follow certain traditions.  Anyway I know I'm annoying you, so just ignore me.  Wink
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« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2012, 01:37:19 AM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

Can I ask you something?  If the fruits of Christians are not better than the fruits of others, then how can Christians be better than anyone else?   Huh
because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.  Even a rotten apple.
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« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2012, 01:46:00 AM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

Amazing. Is there any teaching of the Church that you are not wrong about?

If St. Gregory taught that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, he would be a heretic. However, he does not teach that.

It's in the book: Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite by the Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo.  It's a lovely book, especially in defining the role of our Theotokos and how she held the Creator of the world in her womb, and how no one can go to heaven, not even the saints unless it is through her.

Anything else you would like to know?  Wink


Yes. Page number and/or actual quote please. Since now you are accusing not only St. Gregory but Metropolitan Hierotheos of rejecting the Orthodox position, settled under St. Photios, that claiming the Spirit proceeds from the Son is a heresy.
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« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2012, 03:09:17 AM »

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo's commentary one of the Orthodox-RC 'joint statements': http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/methierotheos_baptism.aspx

Note that he clearly states that "Catholics and Protestants, who have altered the dogma of the Holy Trinity" are heretics.
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« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2012, 09:48:22 AM »

Zenovia, in response to your quote:
Quote
According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

I believe you might be refering to the below quote:

Crisis in Byzantium
Quote
The Great Maximus, the holy Tarasius, and even the saintly John [Damascene] recognize that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, from whom it subsists in terms of its hypostasis and the cause of its being. At the same time, they acknowledge that the Spirit is given, revealed, and, manifeste, comes forth, and is known through the Son


However, this in no way says that St. Gregory is endorsing the filioque. I think you need to read up a bit before making statements like that.


PP
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« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2012, 12:44:10 PM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

Can I ask you something?  If the fruits of Christians are not better than the fruits of others, then how can Christians be better than anyone else?   Huh

How do you define Christianity?  Orthodox Christianity?  Why do you say that Christians have to be better than anyone else?  Better at what?  Piety?  Mysticism?  You tell us.
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« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2012, 01:58:27 PM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

Amazing. Is there any teaching of the Church that you are not wrong about?

If St. Gregory taught that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, he would be a heretic. However, he does not teach that.

It's in the book: Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite by the Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo.  It's a lovely book, especially in defining the role of our Theotokos and how she held the Creator of the world in her womb, and how no one can go to heaven, not even the saints unless it is through her.

Anything else you would like to know?  Wink


Yes. Page number and/or actual quote please. Since now you are accusing not only St. Gregory but Metropolitan Hierotheos of rejecting the Orthodox position, settled under St. Photios, that claiming the Spirit proceeds from the Son is a heresy.

I've lost the book otherwise I definitely would have quoted the whole paragraph.  Saint Gregory Palamas did say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father one way and from  the Son a different way.  Contrary to others on this forum, I don't lie.   Tongue
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« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2012, 02:31:32 PM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

Can I ask you something?  If the fruits of Christians are not better than the fruits of others, then how can Christians be better than anyone else?   Huh

How do you define Christianity?  Orthodox Christianity?  Why do you say that Christians have to be better than anyone else?  Better at what?  Piety?  Mysticism?  You tell us.

I defined in my post what I consider the fruits of Christianity: Love, kindness, compassion.  Basically it's the love of the Holy Spirit within ones heart.  So now how about you defining what you consider the fruits of a Christian, after all some here believe it's to manipulate others with lies, spins or what not.  That way they will get them to accept their own point of view because they feel they know best... which of course  bodes the question:  If some one is morally capable of manipulating others, then how could they ever be in the position of  determining what is the best for others when it comes to Christian moral and spiritual perfection?  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 02:33:28 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

Zenovia, in response to your quote:
Quote
According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

I believe you might be referring to the below quote:

Crisis in Byzantium
Quote
The Great Maximus, the holy Tarasius, and even the saintly John [Damascene] recognize that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, from whom it subsists in terms of its hypostasis and the cause of its being. At the same time, they acknowledge that the Spirit is given, revealed, and, manifeste, comes forth, and is known through the Son

However, this in no way says that St. Gregory is endorsing the filioque. I think you need to read up a bit before making statements like that.


PP

But the Fathers said  the same thing in your above quote, that the Spirit comes forth and is known through the Son.  Anyway I never said that Saint Gregory was endorsing the Filioque, only that he said the Holy Spirit comes through the Father and the Son but in different ways.  You know I really wish you people would stop taking things out of context.  What Saint Palamas said is not the same thing as endorsing the Filioque in the Creed.

 The problem with the Filioque, (to me at least),  is not the wording since it can be taken any which way.  The problem is that it was incorporated into the Creed under the sole authority of the Pope, rather than under the authority of all the Patriarchs.  In other words the Pope tampered with the Creed.  It's the same problem with the two dogmas on the Theotokos.  The Synod at Constantinople didn't say the dogmas were wrong, since they weren't fully defined,  only in that the Pope took it upon his own authority  to make them dogmas.

Look I'm not an expert on theology, because in order to be so I would have to know Greek and Latin fluently, nor am I concerned with Church politics in any way what so ever.  I do get upset though when things are not being presented correctly.    Sad 

 
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« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2012, 03:16:26 PM »

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo's commentary one of the Orthodox-RC 'joint statements': http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/methierotheos_baptism.aspx

Note that he clearly states that "Catholics and Protestants, who have altered the dogma of the Holy Trinity" are heretics.

Metropolitian Heirotheo like most of us humans, is a product of one culture and interprets everything through that narrow prism.  Since the meaning of the Filioque and what Gregory Palamas said are more or less the same, the only heresy would be the imposition of the Pope when it was incorporated it into the Creed.   Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2012, 03:50:42 PM »

A heresy is a doctrine which contradicts the church teachings. For example believing that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, refusing the veneration of icons etc. Heresy has nothing to do with being cruel, honest, dishonest, kindhearted and so on. Someone believing in a heresy is a heretic.

According to our Bulwark of Orthodoxy Saint Gregory Palamas, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.  Is he a heretic?  I think not!

Amazing. Is there any teaching of the Church that you are not wrong about?

If St. Gregory taught that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, he would be a heretic. However, he does not teach that.

It's in the book: Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite by the Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo.  It's a lovely book, especially in defining the role of our Theotokos and how she held the Creator of the world in her womb, and how no one can go to heaven, not even the saints unless it is through her.

Anything else you would like to know?  Wink


Yes. Page number and/or actual quote please. Since now you are accusing not only St. Gregory but Metropolitan Hierotheos of rejecting the Orthodox position, settled under St. Photios, that claiming the Spirit proceeds from the Son is a heresy.

I've lost the book otherwise I definitely would have quoted the whole paragraph.  Saint Gregory Palamas did say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father one way and from  the Son a different way.  Contrary to others on this forum, I don't lie.   Tongue
1. You've presented no proof that anyone here is lying.
2. You've presented no proof that you're NOT lying.

If St. Gregory Palamas said what you attribute to him regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit, then surely you can dig up the sources that prove your point. If you can't dig up those sources, then please don't expect us to accept as proof nothing more than your statement, "I don't lie."
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2012, 03:53:03 PM »

As for a heresy I should think it would be  a state of mind leading one away from God and that can only be judged by it's fruits.  So what are the fruits, wouldn't they be cruelty, dishonesty, immorality, etc., etc.   Of course  if someone teaches something that keeps them away from the fruits of the Holy Spirit  then it definitely should be condemned.  If on the other hand, the fruits are charity, love, kindness, compassion, etc., etc, then how can it be a heresy?  Wouldn't that be an oxymoron? Huh

How do you feel about Arius?  How has Arius (and his followers) demonstrated the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion, et al.  Your definition of heresy is heretical.   police

In fact, here's a link to a course website with 12 major Christian heresies.  Find the fruits of charity, love, kindness, compassion in any of them.

Major Christian Heresies

Can I ask you something?  If the fruits of Christians are not better than the fruits of others, then how can Christians be better than anyone else?   Huh

How do you define Christianity?  Orthodox Christianity?  Why do you say that Christians have to be better than anyone else?  Better at what?  Piety?  Mysticism?  You tell us.

I defined in my post what I consider the fruits of Christianity: Love, kindness, compassion.  Basically it's the love of the Holy Spirit within ones heart.  So now how about you defining what you consider the fruits of a Christian, after all some here believe it's to manipulate others with lies, spins or what not.  That way they will get them to accept their own point of view because they feel they know best... which of course  bodes the question:  If some one is morally capable of manipulating others, then how could they ever be in the position of  determining what is the best for others when it comes to Christian moral and spiritual perfection?  Smiley

What do you believe is being manipulated?  How can you tell the difference between manipulation and persuasion?
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« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2012, 04:00:06 PM »

Quote
after all some here believe it's to manipulate others with lies, spins or what not
I searched the forum for anyone stating that Christianity's definition is what you mentioned. You have a reference?

PP
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« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2012, 04:06:56 PM »

"The Great Maximus, the holy Tarasius, and even the saintly John [Damascene] recognize that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, from whom it subsists in terms of its hypostasis and the cause of its being. At the same time, they acknowledge that the Spirit is given, revealed, and, manifeste, comes forth, and is known through the Son."
St Gregory Palamas' Tomos of 1351 quoted in:
Crisis in Byzantium: the Filioque controversy in the patriarchate of Gregory II of Cyprus (1283 - 1289) By Aristeides Papadakis pg 124

http://books.google.com/books?id=TUBllg0JpgUC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=Papadakis+Paraclete+shines&source=bl&ots=cY80-JonYL&sig=gBTdLpacJQaBmsBU__UyzbZ8ZQs&hl=en&ei=I8EQTLDbGoKC8ga446mOBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2012, 04:10:46 PM »

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Heirotheo's commentary one of the Orthodox-RC 'joint statements': http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/methierotheos_baptism.aspx

Note that he clearly states that "Catholics and Protestants, who have altered the dogma of the Holy Trinity" are heretics.

Metropolitian Heirotheo like most of us humans, is a product of one culture and interprets everything through that narrow prism.  Since the meaning of the Filioque and what Gregory Palamas said are more or less the same, the only heresy would be the imposition of the Pope when it was incorporated it into the Creed.   Smiley

Tell us what kind of narrow prism is His Eminence interpreting?
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« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2012, 04:17:58 PM »

We keep running in circles on this issue because we keep using the English word proceeds like it is a good equivalent for the Greek word ekporeuomenon  when it is not.  Ekporeumenon would be more accurately translated as takes origin.  In this way we can see why St Gregory can say the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father alone but comes forth from (proceeds from) the Father and the Son.
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