Author Topic: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons  (Read 52778 times)

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #180 on: May 24, 2012, 04:04:16 PM »
Quote
In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.  His response was that he followed the Old out of preference but the New out of obedience.  In other words, while he served at night on the Old Calendar out of preference, he did not see the calendar change as a justification for schism and he both modeled, and counseled, obedience to the hierarchs who adopted the New Calendar.  St. Nicholas can hardly be held up as justification for schisms when he counseled and modeled the exact opposite
Exactly. using this Saint as an example of schism sound like a gross ignorance of his life. He never broke communion. He practiced the Old Calendar (something Mt. Athos does IIRC) but do not break communion. I'd try using someone else as an example of high-minded hubris and disobedience.

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Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #181 on: May 24, 2012, 04:06:22 PM »
Quote
We believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, and we believe it was the Holy Spirit which led us to break communion with the Churches who adopted the revised Julian calendar, which we understand as being an offspring of the heresy of Ecumenism
Im sure it was a spirit but maybe not the Holy Spirit.

PP
Was St. Nicholas Planas who was canonized by the Greek New Calendar Church under a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) when he lived? He abhored the New Calendar too.
Did he separate himself from the Church? Did he break communion?

PP

PP

While St. Nicholas Planas lived, there was not a need to separate. The devout Orthodox Christians who followed the Julian Calendar worshiped at night when the Metropolitan police would not notice them. St. Nicholas was very careful not to upset the authorities and would try to get permission if he could to hold an All Night Vigil on special feast days. At other times, he would go to a smaller parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy so as not to draw the attention of the authorities. However, he would commemorate so many names during the litanies, that most of his daily Divine Liturgies would last from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. He would carry the names of the departed and sick in a bad that he placed close to his heart as to not lose them. He worked many miracles during his lifetime, thus he was declared a saint by popular acclaim. He led many to repentance and performed many marriages among those who were previously living together in sinl.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #182 on: May 24, 2012, 04:10:07 PM »
Quote
While St. Nicholas Planas lived, there was not a need to separate. The devout Orthodox Christians who followed the Julian Calendar worshiped at night when the Metropolitan police would not notice them. St. Nicholas was very careful not to upset the authorities and would try to get permission if he could to hold an All Night Vigil on special feast days. At other times, he would go to a smaller parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy so as not to draw the attention of the authorities. However, he would commemorate so many names during the litanies, that most of his daily Divine Liturgies would last from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. He would carry the names of the departed and sick in a bad that he placed close to his heart as to not lose them. He worked many miracles during his lifetime, thus he was declared a saint by popular acclaim. He led many to repentance and performed many marriages among those who were previously living together in sinl
No, he said publicly that he followed the Old Calendar out of practice, and the New out of obedience. You used him as an example to legitimize your schism but he didn't.

The fact is, St. Nicholas should beused as an example to anyone who believe the Old Calendar. Disagree but obey.
However, taking the buffet spoon is way easier.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #183 on: May 24, 2012, 04:11:59 PM »
Quote
We believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, and we believe it was the Holy Spirit which led us to break communion with the Churches who adopted the revised Julian calendar, which we understand as being an offspring of the heresy of Ecumenism
Im sure it was a spirit but maybe not the Holy Spirit.

PP
Was St. Nicholas Planas who was canonized by the Greek New Calendar Church under a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) when he lived? He abhored the New Calendar too.

In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.  His response was that he followed the Old out of preference but the New out of obedience.  In other words, while he served at night on the Old Calendar out of preference, he did not see the calendar change as a justification for schism and he both modeled, and counseled, obedience to the hierarchs who adopted the New Calendar.  St. Nicholas can hardly be held up as justification for schisms when he counseled and modeled the exact opposite.  


This is not true. I just read the biography.

St. Nicholas Planas followed the Old Calendar exclusively, but respected the right of the New Calendarists.
He did not rock the boat, and that is why he went to outlying churches (small churches) where he could celebrate the feasts according to the Old Calendar without offending those priests who were following the New Calendar.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #184 on: May 24, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »
Quote
While St. Nicholas Planas lived, there was not a need to separate. The devout Orthodox Christians who followed the Julian Calendar worshiped at night when the Metropolitan police would not notice them. St. Nicholas was very careful not to upset the authorities and would try to get permission if he could to hold an All Night Vigil on special feast days. At other times, he would go to a smaller parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy so as not to draw the attention of the authorities. However, he would commemorate so many names during the litanies, that most of his daily Divine Liturgies would last from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. He would carry the names of the departed and sick in a bad that he placed close to his heart as to not lose them. He worked many miracles during his lifetime, thus he was declared a saint by popular acclaim. He led many to repentance and performed many marriages among those who were previously living together in sinl
No, he said publicly that he followed the Old Calendar out of practice, and the New out of obedience. You used him as an example to legitimize your schism but he didn't.

The fact is, St. Nicholas should beused as an example to anyone who believe the Old Calendar. Disagree but obey.
However, taking the buffet spoon is way easier.

PP

You misread.

St. Nicholas respected the right of the New Calendarists, but did not celebrate with them.
He went to the outlying rural parishes to celebrate in the Old Calendar.

He was obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but remained humble.
Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

Later on, after his death, celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, and so the faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #185 on: May 24, 2012, 04:17:39 PM »
Quote
We believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, and we believe it was the Holy Spirit which led us to break communion with the Churches who adopted the revised Julian calendar, which we understand as being an offspring of the heresy of Ecumenism
Im sure it was a spirit but maybe not the Holy Spirit.

PP
Was St. Nicholas Planas who was canonized by the Greek New Calendar Church under a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) when he lived? He abhored the New Calendar too.

In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.  His response was that he followed the Old out of preference but the New out of obedience.  In other words, while he served at night on the Old Calendar out of preference, he did not see the calendar change as a justification for schism and he both modeled, and counseled, obedience to the hierarchs who adopted the New Calendar.  St. Nicholas can hardly be held up as justification for schisms when he counseled and modeled the exact opposite.  


This is not true. I just read the biography.

St. Nicholas Planas followed the Old Calendar exclusively, but respected the right of the New Calendarists.
He did not rock the boat, and that is why he went to outlying churches (small churches) where he could celebrate the feasts according to the Old Calendar without offending those priests who were following the New Calendar.
Then you read the wrong biography. I doubt very seriously that St. Nicholas would have been canonized if he led such a deceitful life. He said openly that he practiced the Old Calendar out of practice and conscience, but the New out of obedience. Ditch the mantra. You used him originally as an example for schismatics, and breaking communion and all you did was show your ignorance of him.

Quote
You misread.

St. Nicholas respected the right of the New Calendarists, but did not celebrate with them.
He went to the outlying rural parishes to celebrate in the Old Calendar.

He was obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but remained humble.
Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

Later on, after his death, celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, and so the faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece
It does not matter if he celebrated with New Calendarists or not. he never broke communion. As I said before, pick someone else as an example of hubris and disobedience. St. Nicholas does not cut the mustard for it.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #186 on: May 24, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »
Quote
We believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, and we believe it was the Holy Spirit which led us to break communion with the Churches who adopted the revised Julian calendar, which we understand as being an offspring of the heresy of Ecumenism
Im sure it was a spirit but maybe not the Holy Spirit.

PP
Was St. Nicholas Planas who was canonized by the Greek New Calendar Church under a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) when he lived? He abhored the New Calendar too.

In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.  His response was that he followed the Old out of preference but the New out of obedience.  In other words, while he served at night on the Old Calendar out of preference, he did not see the calendar change as a justification for schism and he both modeled, and counseled, obedience to the hierarchs who adopted the New Calendar.  St. Nicholas can hardly be held up as justification for schisms when he counseled and modeled the exact opposite.  


This is not true. I just read the biography.

St. Nicholas Planas followed the Old Calendar exclusively, but respected the right of the New Calendarists.
He did not rock the boat, and that is why he went to outlying churches (small churches) where he could celebrate the feasts according to the Old Calendar without offending those priests who were following the New Calendar.
Then you read the wrong biography. I doubt very seriously that St. Nicholas would have been canonized if he led such a deceitful life. He said openly that he practiced the Old Calendar out of practice and conscience, but the New out of obedience. Ditch the mantra. You used him originally as an example for schismatics, and breaking communion and all you did was show your ignorance of him.

Quote
You misread.

St. Nicholas respected the right of the New Calendarists, but did not celebrate with them.
He went to the outlying rural parishes to celebrate in the Old Calendar.

He was obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but remained humble.
Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

Later on, after his death, celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, and so the faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece
It does not matter if he celebrated with New Calendarists or not. he never broke communion. As I said before, pick someone else as an example of hubris and disobedience. St. Nicholas does not cut the mustard for it.

PP

Please purchase and read the book for yourself.

This is becoming a he-said, she-said argument.

AGAIN, Please read the book yourself.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #187 on: May 24, 2012, 04:21:25 PM »
Quote
Please purchase and read the book for yourself.

This is becoming a he-said, she-said argument.

AGAIN, Please read the book yourself
No, this is becoming a she-said, then gets called on it, then she covers her tracks because she found out she was wrong and St. Nicholas cant be used as an example of breaking communion.

Have fun deluding yourself.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #188 on: May 24, 2012, 04:23:10 PM »
While he was alive, St. Nicholas Planas could celebrate the Old Calendar largely because he was known as a living saint and people protected him. Later when celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, the devout faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #189 on: May 24, 2012, 04:23:29 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #190 on: May 24, 2012, 04:24:11 PM »
Quote
Please purchase and read the book for yourself.

This is becoming a he-said, she-said argument.

AGAIN, Please read the book yourself
No, this is becoming a she-said, then gets called on it, then she covers her tracks because she found out she was wrong and St. Nicholas cant be used as an example of breaking communion.

Have fun deluding yourself.

PP

Until you read the book, have fun deluding yourself.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #191 on: May 24, 2012, 04:26:14 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.

The entire book must be read, because that quote (without a reference and out of context too) was provided by Jason, not me.
Again, reading the book would give the context. Never does it show him as celebrating according to the New Calendar.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 04:26:57 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #192 on: May 24, 2012, 04:28:55 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.

The entire book must be read, because that quote (without a reference and out of context too) was provided by Jason, not me.
Again, reading the book would give the context. Never does it show him as celebrating according to the New Calendar.

Fair enough, you did not say there was such a reference.  But jah777 did:

Quote
In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.

so, even though I'm no longer a moderator, I ask him in Christian charity to provide the page reference for this instance.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #193 on: May 24, 2012, 04:29:37 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.
We were speaking of breaking communion, then Maria brought up St. Nicholas as an example, who never broke communion. She insists on trying to use him as an example. I dont know why she continues to do so.

Quote
Again, reading the book would give the context. Never does it show him as celebrating according to the New Calendar
That wasnt the subject. We originally brought up breaking communion and the Holy Spirit, then you brought up St. Nicholas and specifically referenced his canonization. He never broke communion, so your argument was clearly Non sequitur.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #194 on: May 24, 2012, 04:44:55 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.
We were speaking of breaking communion, then Maria brought up St. Nicholas as an example, who never broke communion. She insists on trying to use him as an example. I dont know why she continues to do so.
Because nobody has proved her wrong?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #195 on: May 24, 2012, 04:49:25 PM »
Perhaps if one of you could post the page number of this citation that supports your reading of it, this bickering would actually bear some fruit.
We were speaking of breaking communion, then Maria brought up St. Nicholas as an example, who never broke communion. She insists on trying to use him as an example. I dont know why she continues to do so.
Because nobody has proved her wrong?
You're right Peter. I'll stop now....maybe I've been hanging around Isa too long.....darn politics forum....

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline searn77

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #196 on: May 24, 2012, 05:27:07 PM »
Quote
The difference is that that, from the TOC perspective[/i], the World Orthodox are breaking canons AND are preaching and practicing heresy. And as stated by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky in his third edition of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology published by the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, "The unity of the Church is not violated because of temporary divisions of a nondogmatic nature. Differences between Churches arise frequently out of insufficient or incorrect information. Also, sometimes a temporary breaking of communion is caused by the personal errors of individual hierarchs who stand at the head of one or another local Church; or it is caused by their violation of the canons of the Church, or by the violation of the submission of one territorial ecclesiastical group to another in accordance with anciently established tradition. Moreover, life shows us the possibility of disturbances within a local Church, which hinder the normal communion of other Churches with the given local Church until the outward manifestation and triumph of the defenders of authentic Orthodox truth. Finally, the bond between Churches can sometimes be violated for a long time by political conditions, as has often happened in history. In such cases, the division touches only outward relations, but does not touch or violate inward spiritual unity

I have underlined and bolded the critical part. To me, this is buffet Christianity. If you dont like something, somehow you're free to violate other canons in order to stand up for some. This is no different than what Rome did, or what anyone does to you.

PP

You can call it what you will. I understand this is a World Orthodox forum so my beliefs are in the minority. Sure, the Greek Old Calendarists originally broke communion with the State Church for reasons regarding the calendar change, & if the reasons for us remaining out of communion today were only for calendar reasons then I would better understand your sentiment. But the issue is with the Ecumenical heresy & heresy is a legitimate reason to sever communion. If this split between the World Orthodox & True Orthodox was about canonical issues, then we'd both be guilty as both Churches have disobeyed the canons, sometimes for good reasons & other times for bad reasons. Honestly this topic has been hashed out before and I do not wish to try & debate it now so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.

Offline jah777

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #197 on: May 25, 2012, 12:41:05 AM »
Concerning St. Nicholas Planas and the Calendar, these are the exact words I referred to earlier, along with the context:

Quote
10. The calendar

Once the chanter of the vigils, Panayiotes Tomis, asked him, “What do you think, Father, about the calendar?”  And he answered him, “From conviction, the Old, and from obligation, the New!!”  The chanter was dissatisfied and left.

From: Papa-Nicholas Planas: The Simple Shepherd of the Simple Sheep, p. 10.  Translated from the Greek by  Holy Transfiguration Monastery

This section of the book stands alone, with a section both before and after on different subjects, so this is the text’s context. 

The Prologue to the Greek edition of this life was written by Alexander Papademetriou, a member of the New Calendar Church of Greece.  In this Prologue, he states:

Quote
It can be said that, in our cold and ungrateful times, the service-loving synodia of the vigil keepers of Papa-Nicholas Planas – from Alexander Papadiamantis, Alexander Moriatides, and Father Philotheos Zervakos, to the women, who though little educated, were yet pious and zealously dedicated to the traditions of the Church – were by the good will and blessing of God, a continuation of the Kollyvades.

Of those who were mentioned as spiritual children of St. Nicholas Planas and the “continuation of the Kollyvades”, Alexander Papadiamantis reposed before the calendar change; and Father Philotheos Zervakos (+1980) remained a member of the Church of Greece until his last breath and was very critical of both the introduction of the New Calendar and the deluded zeal of the self proclaimed TOC/GOC groups.  Alexander Papademetriou also reposed in the Church of Greece.  I think Alexander Moriatides reposed as a monk in communion with the New Calendar Church of Greece as well, but I do not have much information about him after he became a monk.  Photios Kontoglou (+1965), a man also known for his authentic zeal for the Tradition of the Church, wrote the forward to this life of St. Nicholas Planas and he also remained until his last breath in the Church of Greece on the New Calendar.  All of these spiritual children of St. Nicholas were known for their great zeal for the tradition of the Church, and yet none of them considered the calendar change to be something which justifies schism.  Such an erroneous position they did not receive from St. Nicholas Planas or any of the Fathers.

Whether or not St. Nicholas ever served on the New Calendar, I honestly cannot recall.  If he never did, this is of little consequence to the present discussion.  There are many priests in Jerusalem, Mt. Athos, Serbia, Russia, etc. who have never served on the New Calendar, yet those who call themselves “True” and “Genuine” Orthodox are not in communion with any of these local Orthodox churches. 

All of the “True” and “Genuine” schismatics formally assert that the State Church of Greece went into schism and became deprived of grace in their sacraments as a result of adopting the New Calendar.  They have affirmed this since they established themselves with their own pseudo-hierarchy in 1935.  Such a position is totally cacadox and one cannot find support for this position in the life of St. Nicholas Planas or any saint.  There is no patristic precedent for such blasphemy. 

There is much on the surface to appreciate and be edified by regarding the schismatic Old Calendarists, and they are right to oppose many of the things which they speak against.  This is not the issue, but rather their unjustified schisms and their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit when they officially declare that the sacraments performed by the Church are devoid of grace simply because some local churches have adopted the New Calendar.  If there is much to be admired regarding the Old Calendarists, and some among them appear to have some virtues, this may in fact be because the Evil One no longer wars against them since they have voluntarily removed themselves from the battle.  Yet, those who fall prey to the “True” and “Genuine” delusion, when they repent and return to communion with the Church, speak of the great grace which they have experienced as a result of returning from schism.  Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Ephraim of Katounakia are two such people who were drawn away by false zeal to join the Old Calendarist schismatics.  God revealed to both of them their error, and in their lives it is related how great grace visited them and consoled them once they departed from schism and reunited with the rest of the Orthodox Church. 

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #198 on: May 25, 2012, 01:10:04 AM »
Jason,

It appears that you did not read the book that carefully but only did selected readings of the forward.

St. Nicholas respected the right of the New Calendarists, but did not concelebrate with them.
He went to the outlying rural parishes to celebrate in the Old Calendar.

NOTE: The old calendarist Churches did not exist during the life of St. Nicholas Planas. Did you consider that fact.

St. Nicholas remained obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but he remained humble. Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

Later on, after his death, celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, and so the faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece.

When Father Anastasios Hudson, the webmaster here, who is also with HOTCA and the GOC states that he does not believe that the New Calendar are graceless, and that many also agree with him, how can you say such horrible things about those of us in the Old Calendar? As Christians, we are not to judge.

I have stated here in this thread, that I too do not call the New Calendar graceless because we do not know where the Grace of God is. Nevertheless, I have met many good saintly people both in the New and in the Old Calendar. However, for me, staying in the New Calendar was no longer possible under the present New Calendar bishops because I was scandalized every time I heard one of the OCA or Antiochian bishops speak or give a sermon. The priests did not want to hear confessions, few services were held outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, and I sorely missed the Paraclesis to the Theotokos during August.

I am sorry that you seemed to have had poor experiences with the True Orthodox, but I can assure you that your experience is not the common one.

Recently, a well known theologian in the Greek New Calendar church told us that he has been told to shave his beard and not to wear his frock as those are considered to be an embarrassment to modern college-educated distinguished persons. In other words, Greek Orthodox bishops in Europe are now expected to dress like Roman Catholic Prelates and forego the Orthodox beards and frocks just like Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochians has encouraged  auxiliary bishops and priests to do. This is another sign of ecumenism ... to modernize. Another example of C.H.A.N.G.E. in action.

This distinguished hierarch would love to join the GOC, but he feels that he can be more of a source of good by remaining in the New Calendar Church. He is hoping to educate and convince others in the New Calendar that ecumenism is wrong, and that the GOC is correct in their stance. May God grant him many years. And yes, he does sympathize with those of us in the GOC. We do have our friends in the New Calendar who try to help us in anyway that they can because they would rather celebrate in the Old Calendar and hope to do so one day.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:31:46 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline witega

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #199 on: May 25, 2012, 01:23:09 AM »
He was obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but remained humble. Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

And in what way is this different from what hundreds (thousands?) of Russian, Serbian, and Jerusalem Patriarchate priests continue to do to this day? No one disputes that St. Nicholas loved the Old Calendar and disliked the new. But you are the one who is arguing that St. Nicholas somehow legitimizes schism over the calendar issue but have yet to produce any evidence that a) St. Nicholas himself would have approved of schism based on the calendar; or b) that St. Nicholas is, on this matter, any different from those who continue to follow the Old Calendar within the Church, and in communion with New Calendrists in the present day.

And 'read the whole book' doesn't cut it. If the individual words and sentences in the book all say that St. Nicholas remained in communion with New Calendrists--and even stated that such was a matter of obedience--then that is in fact what the whole book says. If 'the whole book' supports your claim, then there should be at least a couple of sentences in the book which actually support the claim.
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #200 on: May 25, 2012, 01:25:36 AM »
I stayed in the Catholic Church for many years after Vatican II because some priest told me that if I were not doing something positive to help build up the Catholic Church, then I would be part of the problem, not part of the solution. I bought into that lie. I spent many years teaching youth, volunteering in the blasted choir which sang, "Her name is Jesus," etc. Did staying in the post-Vatican II Church help me and others? NO.

Staying in the New Calendar church was only giving me nightmares.
I was losing my faith, especially with all that was broadcasted on ocanews.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #201 on: May 25, 2012, 01:29:55 AM »
What part do you not understand?

Of course St. Nicholas Planas remained in communion with the New Calendarists because the Old Calendarists DID NOT EXIST.

During the life of St. Nicholas Planas, the Old Calendar church simply WAS NOT ESTABLISHED.

St. Nicholas Planas had to remain in communion with the New Calendarist because he had no choice.

Only when the New Calendarists started imprisoning and persecuting the Old Calendarists did the faithful start gathering in their homes because then they had no choice, but that was long after St. Nicholas Planas was buried.

He was obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but remained humble. Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

And in what way is this different from what hundreds (thousands?) of Russian, Serbian, and Jerusalem Patriarchate priests continue to do to this day? No one disputes that St. Nicholas loved the Old Calendar and disliked the new. But you are the one who is arguing that St. Nicholas somehow legitimizes schism over the calendar issue but have yet to produce any evidence that a) St. Nicholas himself would have approved of schism based on the calendar; or b) that St. Nicholas is, on this matter, any different from those who continue to follow the Old Calendar within the Church, and in communion with New Calendrists in the present day.

And 'read the whole book' doesn't cut it. If the individual words and sentences in the book all say that St. Nicholas remained in communion with New Calendrists--and even stated that such was a matter of obedience--then that is in fact what the whole book says. If 'the whole book' supports your claim, then there should be at least a couple of sentences in the book which actually support the claim.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:33:30 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #202 on: May 25, 2012, 01:49:39 AM »
You can call it what you will. I understand this is a World Orthodox forum

Have we recently been sold out by Fr. Anastasios?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:49:50 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #203 on: May 25, 2012, 01:52:11 AM »
Of course St. Nicholas Planas remained in communion with the New Calendarists because the Old Calendarists DID NOT EXIST.

Or in other words, St. Nicholas remained in communion with the New Calendarists and didn't go start his own Old Calendrist church. Thank you for admitting that St. Nicholas was a faithful priest of the Church and not a schismatic like the Old Calendrists that followed.
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #204 on: May 25, 2012, 01:53:48 AM »
So back to the beginning. Please make sure you have more than just photo evidence before you accuse an Orthodox bishop of engaging in illicit ecumenical relations.

The real problem I see is the quickness to condemn Metropolitan Augustine over a few possibly doctored/out of context photos when we don't know all the facts.

Have you seen that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyPpH2YPjBw

That video says it was Holy Water
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #205 on: May 25, 2012, 02:21:36 AM »
So back to the beginning. Please make sure you have more than just photo evidence before you accuse an Orthodox bishop of engaging in illicit ecumenical relations.

The real problem I see is the quickness to condemn Metropolitan Augustine over a few possibly doctored/out of context photos when we don't know all the facts.

Have you seen that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyPpH2YPjBw

That video says it was Holy Water
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say by quoting my posts, Mike.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 02:29:35 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #206 on: May 25, 2012, 02:32:54 AM »
That video is an evidence that Metropolitan Augustine took part in that event and explains what happened there. Not sure whether you had watched it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 02:33:11 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #207 on: May 25, 2012, 02:52:14 AM »
That video is an evidence that Metropolitan Augustine took part in that event and explains what happened there. Not sure whether you had watched it.
I don't understand German. I also wasn't looking for evidence myself as much as I was confronting those who showed themselves so quick to condemn His Beatitude based on what little evidence they had seen.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 02:54:48 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #208 on: May 25, 2012, 08:40:35 AM »
You can call it what you will. I understand this is a World Orthodox forum

Have we recently been sold out by Fr. Anastasios?

Not that I'm aware of.
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #209 on: May 25, 2012, 11:07:46 AM »
St. Nicholas Planas could not start his own church as only bishops can start their own church.

It was not time to start a new synod.

Long after St. Nicholas Planas had departed this earth, then those bishops who believed in the Old Calendar started their own Holy Synod to which clergy, monks, and laity could join. These courageous Greek Orthodox Bishops did this because they could no longer stomach the ecumenism and disrespect for monastics and for all-night vigils that Metropolitan Meletius of Athens and North and South America demonstrated. When Met. Meletius and his successors started persecuting and imprisoning the faithful clergy and laity for simply celebrating feasts on the Old Calendar, then the faithful laity, monks, and clerics sought out devout bishops who held to the Orthodox Faith.

Of course St. Nicholas Planas remained in communion with the New Calendarists because the Old Calendarists DID NOT EXIST.

Or in other words, St. Nicholas remained in communion with the New Calendarists and didn't go start his own Old Calendrist church. Thank you for admitting that St. Nicholas was a faithful priest of the Church and not a schismatic like the Old Calendrists that followed.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #210 on: May 25, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »
That video is an evidence that Metropolitan Augustine took part in that event and explains what happened there. Not sure whether you had watched it.
I don't understand German. I also wasn't looking for evidence myself as much as I was confronting those who showed themselves so quick to condemn His Beatitude based on what little evidence they had seen.

Can videos be photoshopped too?
Can eyes deceive so that eye witnesses of that event must have conspired to deceive us.

Sounds like a tin foil plot.

Since this event was a planned yearly event, most certainly it happened.
We can bury our little heads in the sand and say that the whole event never took place, but there are witnesses on all sides who are upset that their bishops got involved in this symbolic blasphemy and there are also photos and videos.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #211 on: May 25, 2012, 11:18:19 AM »
Nun Martha who attended many liturgies and holy services of St. Nicholas Planas also mentions that he only celebrated feasts on the Old Calendar. He was celebrating the All-Night Vigil of the feast of the Holy Cross (o.c.) when the miracle of the Holy Cross was seen by thousands of faithful including the Metropolitan Police who were sent by Metropolitan Meletius to arrest Father Planas and his followers and the faithful. However, the police agreed that they had seen a miracle and did not arrest any of the Old Calendarists.

St. Nicholas Planas could not start his own church as only bishops can start their own church.

It was not time to start a new synod.

Long after St. Nicholas Planas had departed this earth, then those bishops who believed in the Old Calendar started their own Holy Synod to which clergy, monks, and laity could join. These courageous Greek Orthodox Bishops did this because they could no longer stomach the ecumenism and disrespect for monastics and for all-night vigils that Metropolitan Meletius of Athens and North and South America demonstrated. When Met. Meletius and his successors started persecuting and imprisoning the faithful clergy and laity for simply celebrating feasts on the Old Calendar, then the faithful laity, monks, and clerics sought out devout bishops who held to the Orthodox Faith.

Of course St. Nicholas Planas remained in communion with the New Calendarists because the Old Calendarists DID NOT EXIST.

Or in other words, St. Nicholas remained in communion with the New Calendarists and didn't go start his own Old Calendrist church. Thank you for admitting that St. Nicholas was a faithful priest of the Church and not a schismatic like the Old Calendrists that followed.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 11:19:19 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline jah777

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #212 on: May 25, 2012, 11:20:00 AM »
Jason,

It appears that you did not read the book that carefully but only did selected readings of the forward.

St. Nicholas respected the right of the New Calendarists, but did not concelebrate with them.
He went to the outlying rural parishes to celebrate in the Old Calendar.

NOTE: The old calendarist Churches did not exist during the life of St. Nicholas Planas. Did you consider that fact.

St. Nicholas remained obedient to the Modernist Metropolitan in that he did not openly protest, but he remained humble. Nevertheless, he celebrated the Old Calendar exclusively.

Later on, after his death, celebrating the Old Calendar became punishable by law, and so the faithful were forced to celebrate liturgies in their homes until they could establish themselves legally as a valid Orthodox jurisdiction. Today, the GOC is legal in Greece.

I have read the book carefully, but I admit that it has been a while.  I read through some sections again last night because I was asked to provide a quote and page numbers.  It is true that all the bishops of the Church of Greece went along with the calendar change in 1924 and a separate Old Calendarist synod, comprised of three bishops, was not created until 1935.  It is also true that St. Nicholas Planas did not live to see the creation of such a separate hierarchy.  When the separate hierarchy was formed in 1935, encyclicals were issued by the three hierarchs announcing their rejection of the entire rest of the Synod (70+ bishops?) as in schism and deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit in their mysteries as a result of adopting the New Calendar.  It is true that we cannot say how St. Nicholas Planas would have responded to this had he still been alive, but it appears that his closest spiritual children did not go along with the schismatic Old Calendarists but were very critical of them (particularly in the case of Elder Philotheos).  St. Nicholas, it is true, did not have a choice as to whether to belong to the Church of Greece or to a break-away Synod of Old Calendarist bishops, but we do know that he did not speak against and condemn his metropolitan as “schismatic” or any of the other denunciations that we have grown so accustomed to from the various TOC/GOC groups.  

If you are a member of the TOC/GOC today, it is because you must believe that the Old Calendarists were justified in breaking communion with bishops who adopted the New Calendar in Greece.  It is a fact that St. Nicholas did not break communion with his bishop who adopted the New Calendar, and so while his life is an example of humble and authentic zeal for Church Tradition, his life does not provide an example for those who want to justify themselves for breaking communion with their bishop because of the calendar change.  If you do not think the calendar change justifies schism but have joined the TOC/GOC because of “Ecumenism” (however defined) or some other reason, “Ecumenism” had nothing to do with the Old Calendarist schism and cannot be used as some kind of retroactive justification.  Either they were wrong then and wrong now, or they were right then and right now.  Of the original three hierarchs who established the separate Old Calendarist synod, all of them repented and sought reception back into the Church of Greece from which they departed.  


When Father Anastasios Hudson, the webmaster here, who is also with HOTCA and the GOC states that he does not believe that the New Calendar are graceless, and that many also agree with him, how can you say such horrible things about those of us in the Old Calendar? As Christians, we are not to judge.

We are not to judge people, saying that some are “good” and some are “bad”, or that this person is certainly “going to hell”, and that person is “saved”, etc.  However, we can and should judge issues of faith by the Fathers and the canons of the Church.  

The declaration that the State Church of Greece went into schism and became deprived of grace in its sacraments as a result of the adoption of the New Calendar was the very basis upon which the three hierarchs in 1935 justified their separation from the Church of Greece.  This declaration was re-affirmed in 1950 and 1974 as the justification and rationale for the Old Calendarists’ separation and non-communion with the rest of the Church.  Interestingly, Met Petros of Astoria was removed by his Old Calendarist Synod in 1974 for refusing to sign this declaration which he referred to as a “spiritually ill document” that was “deplored by all the well-minded clergymen and laymen of the Church.”  Met Petros in his rejection of this declaration said that “all Hellenic Orthodox Churches, including the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and Archdiocese of Mount Sinai (who follow the Old Style), have condemned the decision of Archbishop Auxentios, who proclaimed New Calendarist Mysteries as void of Grace.” (from a letter of Met Petros to the Synod of ROCOR on Aug 29, 1976).  However, Met Petros’ successor, Met Pavlos, who you are in communion with, is a member of the same synod which has affirmed and re-affirmed this “spiritual ill”, blasphemous, and anti-Orthodox ecclesiology which asserts that the Church of Greece (and those in communion with them by association) serve soggy bread on a spoon rather than the body and blood of Christ.  To me, joining the Old Calendarists and defending their schism, while also rejecting the ecclesiological declaration which is the very foundation of the Old Calendarist schism, seems hypocritical and dishonest.

Assuming you are being honest about your experience in the Orthodox Church before you joined the Old Calendarists, I am certainly not surprised that you have joined the Old Calendarists.  I too became scandalized by the calendar and ecumenism issues at one time and stopped attending our OCA parish as a result.  We had been in contact with one of the Old Calendarist synods and were planning to join them, but at the very last minute I was rescued from what I now see was a perilous path.  I realize now that most of what I was scandalized by was not what was occurring in my parish or what my priest or bishop was saying or doing, but rather it was from reading too much Old Calendarist propaganda.  I have since seen how dishonest, deceitful, and self-serving so much of this propaganda is and how the Old Calendarists frequently twist, misquote, and misinterpret patristic texts, historical events, and current events in order to justify their schism and denounce the bishops of the Orthodox Church who they have broken communion with.

To be honest, I know many wonderful people who are Old Calendarists, and I cannot say that I had “poor experiences with the True Orthodox” as you assume.  For me, it was a matter of the reasons given for their schism, the fact that the rest of the Church rejected their position, the fact that the rest of the Church continues to produce saints who are zealous for Orthodox Tradition while the Old Calendarists do not seem to produce any saints who agree with the ecclesiology upon which they are established, etc.  

In hindsight, I do see that had I joined the synod that I planned to join, it would have wrecked my faith altogether and that of my wife and children.  The consequences would have been disastrous because many of the concerns I had regarding them, which I had for a long time overlooked and been somewhat blind to, eventually showed themselves to the great scandal of many.  I know others who lost faith altogether, or fell into great despondency, as they studied all of the polemical materials of the many TOC/GOC “denominations” trying to figure out which one was the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” while each group criticizes the others as uncanonical.  I have seen some return to Protestantism because they began reading Old Calendarist propaganda and became completely jaded by the Orthodox Church, only to join an Old Calendarist sect and find out that they were in an even worse situation with this new sect than they were in the Orthodox Church.  Embittered still by Old Calendarist propaganda against the Orthodox hierarchs, and unable to remain in the Old Calendarist sect because of its own crises, they become Protestants again or give up on Christianity altogether.  Families become divided over these issues such that spouses are not allowed to pray or commune together, though they both believe they are Orthodox.  Most importantly, many people are deceived by Old Calendarist propaganda and remove themselves from the grace that is found only in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Regarding various offenses by various Orthodox hierarchs, as a layperson I have a responsibility to pray for my hierarchs and seek out a spiritual father who is in communion with the Church who can also guide me and my family according to sound patristic principles.  I do not see a place in Orthodox tradition for exposing the shame of hierarchs for public ridicule in imitation of the sin of Ham towards his father Noah. But if the sin of Ham in exposing the shame of his father to his brothers received such a curse, I shudder to think of what must await those who expose the shame of their fathers before millions of people on the Internet.  If such a curse would come upon one who exposed the folly of his own father to his brothers, I also shudder to think of what must await those seek to bring shame upon the fathers of others by making up dishonest and inaccurate stories about them.  

In the Church, there have always been and always will be abuses and scandals among the hierarchs and clergy; yet there always have been and always will be saintly hierarchs and clergymen as well.  It is our responsibility to seek out the good, pray for the bad, and not slander those who God has chosen to carry such a burden.

Offline recent convert

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #213 on: May 25, 2012, 11:21:22 AM »
I think these guys could get away with running a drug cartel but wil always be spotted with "heretics".
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #214 on: May 25, 2012, 11:47:18 AM »
The obedience of St. Nicholas Planas has been stressed.

However, it is also important to stress that St. Nicholas Planas was obedient to God, and not to every whim of Met. Meletius as the metropolitan had issued a ban on celebrating the Old Calendar feasts and on having All-Night Vigils. Nevertheless, St. Nicholas, sly as a fox, and obedient to God first before being obedient to man, never ceased celebrating his beloved All-Night Vigils and feast days of the saints on the Old Calendar. When called into the Metropolis of Met. Meletius to account for his apparent disobedience, St. Nicholas played senile rather than lie about his devout activities which the Met. had expressly forbidden.

What about the miracle of the Holy Cross which thousands viewed and which occurred on the Old Calendar? That certainly was not mass hysteria as Met. Meletius would have us believe. Photos were taken of it and the Metropolis Police vouched that it was genuine.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 11:56:06 AM by Maria »
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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #215 on: May 25, 2012, 11:49:23 AM »
That video is an evidence that Metropolitan Augustine took part in that event and explains what happened there. Not sure whether you had watched it.
I don't understand German. I also wasn't looking for evidence myself as much as I was confronting those who showed themselves so quick to condemn His Beatitude based on what little evidence they had seen.

Can videos be photoshopped too?
What do you think video editing is?

Can eyes deceive so that eye witnesses of that event must have conspired to deceive us.
Yes.

Sounds like a tin foil plot.
Yes, what you're spouting does sound as if it could have been a tin foil plot.

Since this event was a planned yearly event, most certainly it happened.
We can bury our little heads in the sand and say that the whole event never took place, but there are witnesses on all sides who are upset that their bishops got involved in this symbolic blasphemy and there are also photos and videos.
Again, I'm not denying that anything took place. Have you not been reading my posts? I'm just arguing that you and others on this thread have been far too quick to condemn based on what really is just scanty evidence.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #216 on: May 25, 2012, 12:18:55 PM »
Quote
What about the miracle of the Holy Cross which thousands viewed and which occurred on the Old Calendar? That certainly was not mass hysteria as Met. Meletius would have us believe. Photos were taken of it and the Metropolis Police vouched that it was genuine.

I have heard of two miracles which seem to justify the use of the new calendar.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/08/holy-snakes-of-kefallonia-and-calendar.html

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/09/spiritual-insignificance-of-church.html
Quote
First Narration On Why the Calendar Is Not Holy

The thing that happened once to a priest here, Calistrat Bobu, my God! He was a very good priest. Very good. But one day he dropped by to see a nun who was living in the forest (as at that time there were about fifty hermits living in the woods around here) and she told this young priest:

“Holy Grace doesn’t descend upon you people, because you have shifted to the New Calendar!”

Father Calistrat came back home and told our Elder. My Elder back then was from the Holy Mountain, Hieroschemamonk Ioanichie, from whom I received tonsure. He was the kind of monk that would only eat on Saturdays and Sundays, and during the rest of the week — nothing. On Sundays, he would only ask me: “Would you happen to have a little bit of cabbage juice and a bit of wheat broth?”

For twenty years he served the Holy Liturgy all by himself and took strength only through the Holy Eucharist. When the calendar was adjusted, he fasted for twenty-three days. He didn’t taste anything, until the Holy Three Hierarchs showed themselves to him and told him to listen to the Church! To keep the calendar as our Church would!

So one day this Father, Calistrat Bobu, was performing the service. I was a sexton back then. Now, every time our Elder would prepare the Holy Communion bread, it was white and sweet, while the one that Fr. Calistrat would prepare would always taste sour and have a greenish tinge. I asked our Superior:

"Elder, why is it that when Fr. Calistrat serves, his Communion bread is greenish and sour?"

"My boy, it’s because he serves with doubt in his heart! He’s been to see that mad woman, Isidora, who stirred up so many troubles in the monastery already, and she told him that the grace of the Holy Spirit doesn’t descend because of the calendar change. And I told him he would get into trouble because of doubting that the Holy Spirit descends!"

As I said, I was a sexton then. As Fr. Calistrat got to the point where he would invoke the grace of the Holy Spirit – lo and behold! – he saw the Lamb bread turning into meat and blood was running on the Holy Diskos and on the Holy Antimension. And when he looked into the chalice, he saw blood. He called to me:

"Costică! Come over here, son! What do you see?"

"Oh, Father! It’s turned into meat and blood! Our Superior told you that you would get into trouble if you lose faith in the calendar, because the calendar is neither a holy thing, nor a dogma! It’s just a 'clock' to measure time. It’s already been canonically adjusted a few times until now."

When our Elder came, he asked for the Book of Psalms to be read.

"Well now! Do you believe that the Holy Spirit comes down and turns the Sacraments holy?"

"Forgive me, Father!" And he fell to his knees.

"Look! The Holy Spirit has come! It’s turned into meat! It’s turned into blood! Do you have any more doubts now, Father?"

"I believe it, Father, forgive me!"

"Come on now — and let’s collect the Holy Mysteries!"

And he took a chisel and made a hole into the leg of the Holy Table – because the Holy Table is our Lord’s grave – and he buried the Sacraments in there. And he sanctified the chalice again and washed it and the Holy Antimension and everything else at the holy water place. And we stayed there until the whole Book of Psalms was read, all of it - four hours in all - and then he started the Liturgy from the Holy Proskomedi: “And one of the soldiers with a spear pierced His side,…”; and continued from there. And he carried out the Holy Liturgy and the incident didn’t repeat.

"You see? Do you believe it now?"

"I believe it, Father!"

Our Elder gave him a 40-day penance.

“Why don’t you believe it when I tell you to, and instead, you go to old women to teach you about the calendar?” This was in 1932. I was here in the summer of 1932. I came to this place in 1929.


This calendar issue is really confusing.
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Offline jah777

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #217 on: May 25, 2012, 12:19:04 PM »
What about the miracle of the Holy Cross which thousands viewed and which occurred on the Old Calendar? That certainly was not mass hysteria as Met. Meletius would have us believe. Photos were taken of it and the Metropolis Police vouched that it was genuine.

I believe it was a true miracle and consolation from God to encourage those who sought to continue celebrating according to the Old Calendar in the midst of State persecution.  In these early years, as you have noted, those who continued to follow the Old Calendar did not comprise a separate synod from the Church of Greece as was the case after 1935.  During these early years, many hierarchs abroad, including St. Nikolai of Zica, supported those who wished to remain on the Old Calendar.  Those who remained on the Old Calendar in Greece were also united during this very difficult time.  Everything changed, however, in 1935 when a separate synod was formed of three Old Calendarist hierarchs and these hierarchs unilaterally took it upon themselves to declare the Church of Greece to be in schism and without grace.  No sooner had such a cacadox and anti-canonical decision been made that the Old Calendarists became divided amongst themselves and the sympathetic hierarchs abroad could no longer give their support.  As long as they were struggling without a separate hierarchy, and as long as they remained united in their struggle without uncanonically condemning the bishops of the Church of Greece, there was hope that the local churches abroad could intervene and encourage the Church of Greece to return to the Old Calendar.  Cacadox declarations by the Old Calendarists, and schisms among them, ruined their reputation and made it impossible for synods abroad to support them, and for the Church of Greece to ultimately return to the Old Calendar.  So, while the introduction of the New Calendar was certainly very unfortunate, the results of the Old Calendarist schism has been nothing but tragic.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #218 on: May 25, 2012, 01:22:28 PM »
The 'true' Orthodox versus these guys: http://www.romancatholicism.org/  That would sell on pay per view.....

I took a brief glance at that website, and quickly closed it.
Scary!! Are they Jansenists?

I'd say so.  They have a whole article on how the popes who condemned Jansenism were heretics.

This is my new favorite site.


LOL, but how can the infallible be a heretic?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #219 on: May 25, 2012, 01:37:42 PM »
I've heard of photoshopping.
Amish do have bishops.   They cast lots for them.

Does an Amish bishop have contact with any of his counterparts in other religious denominations?  Could he be accused of ecumenism?

Well they have contact with the other bishops of the other churches.   I really doubt you'd find an Amish bishop at a WCC conference or multi-religion worship.   It works kind of like Orthodox, where if one Amish group was visiting another they are all "Amish" and would accept one another as that.  Outsiders are often treated the same way.  Mennonites are sort of similar, depending on how conservative they are.  Hutterites I know are most often enclosed in their communal living.   

Of course, really doesn't have to do anything with the thread but there ya have it. :)

Trying to stay focused on ecumenism, the #1 cause that was the largest slap in the face to me, who was a steadfast and very dedicated Orthodox Christian for most of my life.  I felt it was an absolute betrayal to the faith.  I felt the clergy absolutely disobeyed and violated the canon of the Holy Apostles.   Liturgy held in tents right after pagan worship... Horrible, horrible stuff.

My thing with the Anabaptists is I don't think they are more "Orthodox" than the "Orthodox", but they hit the reset button (best way I can put it).  Their lifestyle and the way the laymen behave, along with their excellent family values is how early Christians were.  I think as much as we are "Orthodox", there is something to learn from this.

In other words, you won't find many of them taking the Eucharist on a Sunday and running home to play Diablo III for example (or watch violent movies etc.).  Many Orthodox do not do this either, but many do as well.   They place emphasis on the day of worship, and keeping things "Holy".   Family time, visit, and soul food at meals.  Children play together for the rest of the day... etc.   God always in their life, singing hymns together as they work.  They stick to their "communities" as many Early Christians did.

So I view them as "Orthodox" in their family life, just not in faith.  Orthodox I would see as "Orthodox" in faith, but not *entirely* in family life or lifestyle.

But anyway, the Metropolitan I believe in this thread is clearly violating the canon, which calls for him to be deposed.  HE KNOWS better than this.  Come on guys, everybody knows he had to know better.  Would any of you as Orthodox Christians be in this photo doing what he is doing with the Roman Catholic?  No way.    He knew better...
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Offline witega

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #220 on: May 25, 2012, 01:39:35 PM »
St. Nicholas Planas could not start his own church as only bishops can start their own church.

St. Maximus the Confessor was also not a bishop and could not start his own Church. But when his bishop taught 'heresy bare-headed in the Church', he broke communion with him. You cannot have it both ways--if the implementation of the New Calendar was grounds for breaking communion, then St. Nicholas is not a saint because he did not follow the examples of the saints in how to handle a bishop preaching heresy. If St. Nicholas is a saint (and he is) then his example is a reproof and a judgment on those who rejected his example and broke communion over the calendar.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #221 on: May 25, 2012, 01:55:00 PM »
The photos do not lie people.
Photos can be made to say anything you want them to say. They can even be made to lie without being Photoshopped.

You are only fooling yourself.   Lots of bishops / clergy have been engaged in ecumenism.
What do you think I'm trying to say here? I've never denied that a number of clergy have been engaged in ecumenism, whatever you mean by that term. In this discussion I've only been talking about the photos of alleged illicit behavior by Metropolitan Augustine.

I love it, when somebody wants proof on the forum, they want a photo, text, links, etc.
When somebody provides proof on the forum, then it is photoshopped.
1. In this discussion I have represented only myself and my point of view. I would appreciate you addressing me directly and not lumping me together with this nebulous "they".
2. I don't ask for photo proof of allegations, since I know how photos can be doctored or ripped out of their context.
3. Text or links cannot be photoshopped, so I feel comfortable asking for those.
4. I never made the positive assertion that the photos in the OP definitely were Photoshopped. I only posited the possibility that they may have been Photoshopped and that we should therefore not trust them by themselves.

Denial will only make you feel better for a while...
I'm not denying anything. I just want to make sure that before we convict His Beatitude of nefarious conduct we first make sure we have enough evidence to convict. Photos by themselves can be doctored or torn out of context, so I do not accept them as evidence without any other supporting material.

Been there done that.  The truth resonates in ecumenism and its obvious.  I know you guys are smart enough to buck up and see the reality behind it.  It takes a lot of strength to stand up against a bishop/metropolitan engaged in direct heresy and breaking the canon of the Holy Apostles.
But you do not know that His Beatitude is guilty. You're just quick to condemn him because of your preconceived bias against ecumenism.

Here's some more for everybody:







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=relmfu

Check out this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o7UGLTauHI&feature=relmfu

I pray that some of you can do some soul searching on ecumenism.  I encourage everybody to find a bishop that opposes the practice.  I'm sure that everybody would like to be Orthodox without their bishop practicing acts forbidden in the Canon of the Holy Apostles.  

Ask yourself the simple question (pretend somebody asked in the Faith Issues section and they were an Orthodox Christian) "Is it okay for me to attend a Roman Catholic church for prayer and worship"?  The answer is "NO".
You still do not appreciate the irony of claiming to represent Orthodoxy while worshiping with the Amish, do you? If it's not OK for me to attend a Roman Catholic church for prayer and worship, then it's not OK for you to attend an Amish church for prayer and worship. If you're going to natter on and on about your admiration for the Amish, then please shut up your crying about how Orthodox participate in ecumenism, for you have no room to talk. Practice what you preach and maybe we'll listen to you.

Here you have bishops, clergy, and in the OP, a Metropolitan breaking the canon and ENGAGING IN WORSHIP with the Non-Orthodox.  Many Orthodox are against this as well, and I really wish many Orthodox would get brave and decide to start going through the ranks with messages against ecumenism.  
So back to the beginning. Please make sure you have more than just photo evidence before you accuse an Orthodox bishop of engaging in illicit ecumenical relations.

I have not engaged in worship with the Amish.  I have been to old order Mennonite churches, but never worshiped with them.  I have never prayed with them.  I only sought fellowship with them, friends with them, and brotherhood of sorts with them.    Besides my wife is an Anabaptist, grew up an Anabaptist, and these are her "roots".  I brag about them because the Orthodox should admire their family life.  They have a lot of wisdom, and that's wonderful.

Besides to take somebody like me, a layman in Orthodoxy, visiting a Mennonite church for fellowship only - and - seeing that my wife was raised as an Anabaptist and compare what I did with a METROPOLITAN, who engaged in worship.... My brother, I don't think there is any comparison.  You do understand my family does not attend Orthodox Churches because OF ECUMENISM. 

Every other issue of Orthodoxy I've brought up, such as odd ritual behavior, the iconostasis (which old believers don't have), and other practices, are TRIVIAL.  They don't deal with the core issues such as the Eucharist.

So please rather than attack me, attack the Metropolitan, the bishop who VIOLATED the canon of the Holy Apostles.   He's your target.   Me I have no influence on your faith, a bishop does.  Me, I'm not engaged in worship outside of Orthodoxy, this Metropolitan is.     Please also don't try to make points about photoshop on issues like this.  A simple google search and you'll see several places recording this incident.  Besides, I posted the other photos to show "it is not outside the ecumenism box" what he did.

The question I ask is the same I ask to other Orthodox Christians - Is this behavior fine and dandy for an Orthodox Bishop to engage in worship with the Roman Catholics and other denominations?

Ecumenism is wrong.  I think every single Orthodox Christian really knows it is in their hearts, they just are too afraid to do anything about it.   World Orthodoxy is powerful.   

I'm not out to get you, I'm just trying to encourage people to start speaking against it.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #222 on: May 25, 2012, 02:01:30 PM »
Quote
We believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, and we believe it was the Holy Spirit which led us to break communion with the Churches who adopted the revised Julian calendar, which we understand as being an offspring of the heresy of Ecumenism
Im sure it was a spirit but maybe not the Holy Spirit.

PP
Was St. Nicholas Planas who was canonized by the Greek New Calendar Church under a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) when he lived? He abhored the New Calendar too.

In the life of St. Nicholas Planas that is published by the Greek Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, it is recorded that his chantor asked him which calendar should be followed, the Old or the New.  His response was that he followed the Old out of preference but the New out of obedience.  In other words, while he served at night on the Old Calendar out of preference, he did not see the calendar change as a justification for schism and he both modeled, and counseled, obedience to the hierarchs who adopted the New Calendar.  St. Nicholas can hardly be held up as justification for schisms when he counseled and modeled the exact opposite.  


This is not true. I just read the biography.

St. Nicholas Planas followed the Old Calendar exclusively, but respected the right of the New Calendarists.
He did not rock the boat, and that is why he went to outlying churches (small churches) where he could celebrate the feasts according to the Old Calendar without offending those priests who were following the New Calendar.

As important as the calendar issue is, it is really trivial in comparison to the nature of the thread.  Issues such as beards, iconostasis or not (old believers), and the way people wear head coverings are small.... the side dish... the extras...

Ecumenism is the "Meat and Potatoes".   This involves the Orthodox clergy engaging in worship with the non-orthodox.  Trivial issues can digress the blatant sickness that ecumenism is.

It's only until you have been to a WCC event, and watch liturgy held in a tent right after some half naked tribal dance around a fire ritual, that you understand how evil it is.   When you see these tribal types hold an antimins that they just picked up to talk about it with a priest, who is shaking in his shoes as this big half naked ash painted guy just grabbed and holding something precious....

It's an outrage.  I encourage anybody to go see for yourselves what the WCC is about.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #223 on: May 25, 2012, 02:08:48 PM »
That video is an evidence that Metropolitan Augustine took part in that event and explains what happened there. Not sure whether you had watched it.
I don't understand German. I also wasn't looking for evidence myself as much as I was confronting those who showed themselves so quick to condemn His Beatitude based on what little evidence they had seen.

I apologize, but you have to understand, I have personally witnessed a lot of ecumenism, that much does not come as a surprise.  When I saw the photo, I googled around and found a lot more about him, and how he was engaged in ecumenism.

Clearly though, he wronged the Orthodox faith, its traditions, and his office.  I have a real bad attitude with ecumenism brother.
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Offline Zenovia

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Re: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons
« Reply #224 on: May 25, 2012, 02:11:47 PM »
In addition to the references above to St. Mark of Ephesus and St. Nikodemos regarding the Latin heresies, in the present context it is particularly relevant to point out the following words from a letter written by St. Paisius (Velichkovsky) to an Eastern Rite Catholic priest:

". . .All the holy ecumenical teachers who have interpreted the Scriptures as if with one mouth say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and nowhere have they written that He proceeds from the Son also. Thus, if the Eastern Catholics think exactly like the Romans in such a serious heresy, what hope do they have for salvation, unless they openly renounce this Spirit-fighting heresy and become united again with the Holy Orthodox Eastern Church?

"Spare neither property nor relatives if they do not wish to listen to you, but by all means save your own soul from perdition; because there is nothing more needful for you than the soul for which Christ died…. Depart and flee from the Unia as speedily as possible lest death overtake you in it and you be numbered among the heretics and not among the Christians. And not only go away yourself, but advise others to go away also, if in your conscience you know that they will hear you. And if they will not hear you, then at least depart yourself from the nets of the enemy and be united in soul and heart with the Holy Orthodox Church, and thus, together with all [the faithful] holding the inviolate faith and fulfilling the commandments of Christ, you will be able to be saved."


This is taken from the book "Blessed Paisius Velichkovsky" published by St. Herman's in Platina.  

Of course, in 1848 a Pan-Orthodox Council made up of the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem (along with many other bishops) sent an Encyclical to the Pope Pius IX in which they repeatedly referred to the Filioque as a heresy:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

A Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic who wishes to pretend that the Filioque is anything other than heresy, he will find himself at great odds with the Orthodox saints and Fathers, and with the Spirit which has inspired their writings.  Rather than dispute the indisputable, it would be more profitable for one’s soul to follow the counsel given above by St. Paisius, a man who tirelessly applied himself to the study of the patristic writings, and who by his many virtues and manner of life showed himself to be of equal stature to the Fathers of old and a faithful transmitter of the faith “once and for all delivered to the saints”.


From the statement by 'Blessed' Paisius, it's obvious he's not a saint.  I know of a few so called 'holy men', (I won't mention their names) that  pleased 'men', by confirming their hatred towards others, instead of edifying them into perfecting their own souls.  Now really, can you possible believe that arousing hatred in someone because of the Filioque is making them a better and purer person?  Sounds very pharasaical to me.  I consider it plain demagoguery.   :(  
You know, Zenovia, it really doesn't matter what you think if Paisius Velichkovsky really IS a saint.

But he's not a saint now is he?  Men can be easily deceived and for that reason God gives us  signs confirming a person's sanctity.  Had God given the Church that assurance, then he would be a saint.

Anyway I misread what 'Blessed' Paisios said and didn't take the circumstances in Eastern Europe into account.  He was obviously reacting to pressures by the Eastern Catholics in those never ending East/West conflicts.   But that's part of human nature, saints though are able to step out of themselves, so they can see others through the purity of their hearts.  Here's a excerpt from the Elder Porphyrios.  His love for humanity and the the many charisms given to him by God,  is an assurance of his future sanctity: :angel:

Man has such powers that he can transmit good or evil to his environment. These matters are very delicate. Great care is needed. We need to see everything in a positive frame of mind. We mustn’t think anything evil about others. Even a simple glance or a sigh influences those around us. And even the slightest anger or indignation does harm. We need to have goodness and love in our soul and to transmit these things.

We need to be careful not to harbour any resentment against those who harm us, but rather to pray for them with love. Whatever any of our fellow men does, we should never think evil of him. We need always to have thoughts of love and always to think good of others. Look at Saint Stephen the first martyr. He prayed, Lord, do not hold this sin against them.  We need to do the same.



U-word removed - MK
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 06:12:39 PM by Michał Kalina »