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Author Topic: Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons  (Read 14111 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 18, 2012, 08:31:17 AM »


Orthodox Metropolitan Violate Holy Cannons – Reports


http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/05/orthodox-metropolitan-violate-holy-cannons-reports/
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 08:34:54 AM »

What sacrament was that?
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 08:39:56 AM »

What sacrament was that?

Something to do with oil and gunpowder, from what I can figure...
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 08:42:32 AM »

I've heard it was holy water.
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 08:47:36 AM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 09:48:24 AM »

What sacrament was that?

Something to do with oil and gunpowder, from what I can figure...
Yup, pretty easy to surmise from the use of the word "cannons". Makes me think a bishop blew up something.
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 09:54:44 AM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.

Q.F.T.
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 09:55:14 AM »

Something else that bugs me about this blog post: There's no reference whatsoever to any specific outside news sources. In this world of Photoshop, I can't just make a judgment off one's cobbling together of a bunch of photographs without references to news articles to place the photos in context. In the end, we have merely the word of the person who wrote the blog post and used it as the seed for this thread.
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 10:51:49 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyPpH2YPjBw

That video says it was Holy Water
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 12:04:07 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.


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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 01:34:16 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.

And when a lay person falsely accuses a bishop, outside an ecclesiastical court no less, they should be excommunicated. Right?
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 02:11:45 PM »

It seems that I have seen other questionable reports like this of a bishop allegedly violating some canon law when all the bishop is doing is probably attending some musical chair religious event with ministers of other Christian churches.
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 03:50:13 PM »

If this is true, hasn't he then technically excommunicated himself?
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/05/rotten-fruit-of-ecumenism-metropolitan.html
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2012, 04:56:01 PM »

Are the holy cannons kept near the holy hand grenades?
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2012, 04:59:06 PM »

Are the holy cannons kept near the holy hand grenades?

I believe the Holy Hand Grenade is under the Antiochian jurisdiction, not sure about the cannon.
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2012, 05:03:11 PM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.

You are incorrect.  There are three Holy Oils used in the Sacraments: Oil of Catechumens-Baptism, Chrism-Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Oil of the Sick-Anointing of the Sick.  There is also blessed oil that is a sacramental that would be equivalent to Litiya oil in the Byzantine tradition.  It is this sacramental oil the Metropolitan was blessed with if it was indeed oil and not holy water.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 05:08:14 PM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.

You are incorrect.  There are three Holy Oils used in the Sacraments: Oil of Catechumens-Baptism, Chrism-Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Oil of the Sick-Anointing of the Sick.  There is also blessed oil that is a sacramental that would be equivalent to Litiya oil in the Byzantine tradition.  It is this sacramental oil the Metropolitan was blessed with.

Which of those oils was the Metropolitan receiving, Deacon Lance? The Cardinal is not Byzantine so I guess it would not be Litya...?
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 05:19:26 PM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.

You are incorrect.  There are three Holy Oils used in the Sacraments: Oil of Catechumens-Baptism, Chrism-Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Oil of the Sick-Anointing of the Sick.  There is also blessed oil that is a sacramental that would be equivalent to Litiya oil in the Byzantine tradition.  It is this sacramental oil the Metropolitan was blessed with.

Which of those oils was the Metropolitan receiving, Deacon Lance? The Cardinal is not Byzantine so I guess it would not be Litya...?

Simple blessed oil as I stated above.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 05:31:35 PM »

8. BLESSING OF OIL

P: Our help is in the name of the Lord.

All: Who made heaven and earth.

Exorcism

God's creature, oil, I cast out the demon from you by God the Father  almighty, who made heaven and earth and sea, and all that they contain. Let the adversary's power, the devil's legions, and all Satan's attacks and machinations be dispelled and driven afar from this creature, oil. Let it bring health in body and mind to all who use it, in the name of God  the Father almighty, and of our Lord Jesus  Christ, His Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the Advocate, as well as in the love of the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who is coming to judge both the living and the dead and the world by fire.

All: Amen.

P: Lord, heed my prayer.

All: And let my cry be heard by you.

P: The Lord be with you.

All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray.

Lord God almighty, before whom the hosts of angels stand in awe, and whose heavenly service we acknowledge; may it please you to regard favorably and to bless  and hallow  this creature, oil, which by your power has been pressed from the juice of olives. You have ordained it for anointing the sick, so that, when they are made well, they may give thanks to you, the living and true God. Grant, we pray, that those who will use this oil, which we are blessing  in your name, may be delivered from all suffering, all infirmity, and all wiles of the enemy. Let it be a means of averting any kind of adversity from man, made in your image and redeemed by the precious blood of your Son, so that he may never again suffer the sting of the ancient serpent; through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.

It is sprinkled with holy water.

http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/54-blessings-of-things-designated-for-ordinary-use.html

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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 05:32:30 PM »

Orthodox participation in such charades is tragic.  False and misleading stories about such events is even more tragic.  The only "sacramental oil" that Roman Catholics have is the oil for Confirmation and that for Extreme Unction at the time of death.  Neither fits the circumstance portrayed, which shows that the report misleads the reader into thinking that the Orthodox metropolitan received a "sacrament" from a Roman Catholic cardinal.  An Orthodox metropolitan has no business at such an event, and he did violate the canons by "praying with heretics", but he did not receive a sacrament from a Roman Catholic cardinal.

You are incorrect.  There are three Holy Oils used in the Sacraments: Oil of Catechumens-Baptism, Chrism-Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Oil of the Sick-Anointing of the Sick.  There is also blessed oil that is a sacramental that would be equivalent to Litiya oil in the Byzantine tradition.  It is this sacramental oil the Metropolitan was blessed with.

Which of those oils was the Metropolitan receiving, Deacon Lance? The Cardinal is not Byzantine so I guess it would not be Litya...?

Simple blessed oil as I stated above.

When does the Latin rite use Litya style oil? I don't recall seeing it during my time in the RCC? What is the probable occasion of the Metropolitan receiving this anointing?
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 07:29:31 PM »

When does the Latin rite use Litya style oil?
Whenever it deems appropriate.  There are not restrictions on its use.
I don't recall seeing it during my time in the RCC?
I never saw a chalice consecrated, but it happens.
What is the probable occasion of the Metropolitan receiving this anointing?
The Ecumenical prayer service they attended I assume.

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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 09:24:43 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.

And when a lay person falsely accuses a bishop, outside an ecclesiastical court no less, they should be excommunicated. Right?

I made a general statement, not an accusation.

Recently there was an Eastern Bishop in Europe who was disciplined by his fellow bishops when he received communion in the Catholic Church. I remember there was a thread here at oc.net, but I cannot find it now.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 09:33:10 PM »

If this is true, hasn't he then technically excommunicated himself?
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/05/rotten-fruit-of-ecumenism-metropolitan.html

Title from the link above:

"A Rotten Fruit of Ecumenism - Metropolitan Symbolically Baptized By Catholic Bishop"

They were symbolically baptizing each other using their hand and dipping it in water. Sheesh.
Will they offer symbolic communion next as they have done in Catholic retreats?

Is this not a mockery of our Holy Mysteries?

From that same link above:
Quote
...when the various Christian representatives, among whom was Metropolitan Augoustinos of Germany, gathered at the Basilica of Constantine, things went a little too far and the representatives got ahead of themselves with a symbolic baptism of each member by another member. They dipped their hand in water and symbolically baptized each other on the forehead with an open hand, saying: "You are baptized in the Name of the Triune God".

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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 12:17:57 AM »

So is it blessed oil or holy water?  In any case I doubt a Catholic bishop would use the above words knowing baptism is unrepeatable or that an Orthodox bishop would participate with such words being used.  I would suspect a formula such as: May this water remind you of your baptism in Christ+ or something similar.
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 01:31:37 AM »

"Tag der Ökumene" is "Ecumenism Day," its really not unclear at all. Let's see, there's Lutherans there that are in communion with the Anglicans and TEC - with the priestesses that say abortion is a "sacrament". Great.

Why do we even have to pretend they're anything but another pagan religion? Pagans sometimes worshiped Christ but they weren't invited to the Ecumenical Councils... and we shouldn't fool around and pretend the state church Lutherans and other Protestants that often have openly atheist priests (just for one example) have anything to do with Orthodoxy.

THAT part way outstrips whatever the Metropolitan was doing with the Catholics. It might've been wrong but its a speck on the radar compared to the other "ecumenism" going on.
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2012, 01:31:44 AM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2012, 02:25:05 AM »

Failure to keep the Holy Cannons is what caused Constantinople's fall to the Turks.
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2012, 02:28:54 AM »

This falls short of a full rape (violation) of canons. it's more like inappropriate touching.
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2012, 10:42:08 AM »

Failure to keep the Holy Cannons is what caused Constantinople's fall to the Turks.

Actually it was the Sultans's cannons but that's another story....
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2012, 11:21:25 AM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 11:34:40 AM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.
That's even funnier, if true.
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 12:10:16 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.


And when a lay person falsely accuses a bishop, outside an ecclesiastical court no less, they should be excommunicated. Right?

I made a general statement, not an accusation.

Recently there was an Eastern Bishop in Europe who was disciplined by his fellow bishops when he received communion in the Catholic Church. I remember there was a thread here at oc.net, but I cannot find it now.

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless? 

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 12:12:53 PM »

Failure to keep the Holy Cannons is what caused Constantinople's fall to the Turks.

Actually it was the Sultans's cannons but that's another story....


Thanks for the laugh.   Grin
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »

The Truest Orthodox are going to be delighted to see this. More motivation to dig the trenches deeper!

No, the True Orthodox while devoutly praying, "Lord have mercy" are weeping that so many have fallen into delusion. Go and see the similar thread at the E. Cafe. You will see no gloating, no joking, but great soberness.

Being drunk on judgment and self-righteousness is often difficult to distinguish from soberness.
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »

Failure to keep the Holy Cannons is what caused Constantinople's fall to the Turks.

No I'll tell you what caused Constantinple's fall.  When the Emperor returned from the Council of Florence they held a Latin Mass at Aghia Sophia and it appalled the Greco/Romans so much, that they refused to enter the church for six months. 

During that time there were fights in the city, the  Greeks  with the Italians, and the Venetians with the Genovese.  Well the day before the city fell a white mist was seen rising from the Church.  It was interpreted as the Holy Spirit leaving the Church.  Well the fighting ceased and they all ran into the Church and celebrated together...a little too late me thinks.

We know the Pope and his theologians  were very adamant at Florence, but even if they hadn't been the cultural animosities were so strong that I don't think the Greeks would  have ever accepted unity.  Anyway here's an interesting tidbit I came across once by a historian.    There was a monk at the time who was considered a saint and the people of the city would go to him for advice.  He told them that if they accepted unity with the Latins  the city would definitely fall to the Turks.   Anyway he was wrong.      Cry
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2012, 12:59:56 PM »

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless? 

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided

Well Zenovia blessings and mysteries from the heretics are in fact curses and spiritually dangerous. We could say, a spiritual poison. Here are some orthodox quotations proving this :

1° Saint Theodore the Studite called the communion of heretics, food of demons

If we read the canons and their commentary, this is also confirmed. The canon 32 of Laodicea says :


32. That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather misfortunes than blessings.

Interpretation (by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorithe)

According to the present Canon no Christian ought to accept blessings from heretics, since they are not blessings, but rather misfortunes. See also Ap. c. XLV.

What people may have have done or do out of ignorance is not an excuse for contemporary bad behaviours.
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2012, 01:22:51 PM »

Aren't Orthodox Bishops supposed to be setting a good example according to the Divine Liturgy:

"And again we beseech Thee: be mindful, O Lord, of every Bishop of the Orthodox, who rightly divide the word of Thy truth;" (p. 115, Service Book, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Editionk, 1997.)

When an "Orthodox" bishop's actions are scandalous and not right, he should be deposed.


And when a lay person falsely accuses a bishop, outside an ecclesiastical court no less, they should be excommunicated. Right?

I made a general statement, not an accusation.

Recently there was an Eastern Bishop in Europe who was disciplined by his fellow bishops when he received communion in the Catholic Church. I remember there was a thread here at oc.net, but I cannot find it now.

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless?
Communion isn't merely a vehicle of God's sanctifying grace, it's also the supreme act of the worshiping Christian community, the act that makes the community what it is. The reception of communion in a non-Orthodox church is de facto an act of joining that community. It places you in communion with that heterodox church. How can one then be in communion with two communities that are estranged from each other? Such a divided spirit would be in and of itself dangerous to a person's soul.
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2012, 01:52:58 PM »

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless? 

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided

Well Zenovia blessings and mysteries from the heretics are in fact curses and spiritually dangerous. We could say, a spiritual poison. Here are some orthodox quotations proving this :

1° Saint Theodore the Studite called the communion of heretics, food of demons

If we read the canons and their commentary, this is also confirmed. The canon 32 of Laodicea says :


32. That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather misfortunes than blessings.

Interpretation (by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorithe)

According to the present Canon no Christian ought to accept blessings from heretics, since they are not blessings, but rather misfortunes. See also Ap. c. XLV.

What people may have have done or do out of ignorance is not an excuse for contemporary bad behaviours.

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2012, 01:59:07 PM »

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

Well, to be heretic, one does not need to be declared heretic by an ecumenical council. For example, marcionism was condemned by a local council. Arianism was first locally condemned by a local council. Latin doctrines have been condemned by different councils :

- Photian council of 879
- Palamite councils in the 14th century
- the encyclics from the Eastern patriarchs reconfirmed again the heretic nature of catholicism
- many saints confirms this too

Regarding the WCC, I don't know its chart but one can be christian and heretic at the same time because heretics are christians who deviate on a certain point.
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Zenovia
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2012, 02:08:48 PM »

To be honest, I can't understand how people can persist with this Christian infighting  at a time when the world is faced with the two conflicting evils of  liberal atheism and Islam? I see them as being equal and maybe even worse than the evils of fascism and communism that destroyed Europe?

I think it's best to look at the positive aspects of other Christian faiths, maybe then God might bless us with unity...but not in the way we want it, but the way God would want it.  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2012, 02:09:21 PM »

This falls short of a full rape (violation) of canons. it's more like inappropriate touching.

Heavy petting?

Being drunk on judgment and self-righteousness is often difficult to distinguish from soberness.

May God bless your weebley-wobbley mind!
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?

When the were the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses declared a heresy at an Ecumenical Council?
Heresy is heresy because it is false--St. Ireneus wrote his 'Refutation of Heresies' two hundred years before anybody even thought about calling an ecumenical council.

Quote
  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

The constitution of the WCC specifically states (largely in deference to the Orthodox members) that membership does *not* mean accepting that other members are not heretical. We still consider iconoclasm and rejection of the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as heresies even though they are practiced by the majority of WCC members.

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For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
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« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2012, 02:42:50 PM »

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

Well, to be heretic, one does not need to be declared heretic by an ecumenical council. For example, marcionism was condemned by a local council. Arianism was first locally condemned by a local council. Latin doctrines have been condemned by different councils :

- Photian council of 879
- Palamite councils in the 14th century
- the encyclics from the Eastern patriarchs reconfirmed again the heretic nature of catholicism
- many saints confirms this too

Regarding the WCC, I don't know its chart but one can be christian and heretic at the same time because heretics are christians who deviate on a certain point.

Look I don't know Orthodox theology and where it differs from the RCC other than in semantics, but I do know that Saint Nektarios had discourses with a Latin Cardinal and found they were wrong in something and I do have the greatest respect for Saint Nektarios.    I don't know where he found they were wrong, but I do know that we consider the two Catholic dogmas regarding our Theotokos incomplete and therefore not in error.  Also Saint Gregory Palamas said that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.

Saints though can be wrong, since they are products of a specific culture and time.  Also human beings are limited, so  God can only give people the amount of knowledge needed for their spiritual welfare  within the time and place they live in.  I'm sure this has caused a great deal  of  friction between faiths but God separated people culturally with the Tower of Bable so He never really intended  us to be the same and to see things the same way.  

As for Saint Gregory Palamas, he was fighting the heresy of Barlaam and from what I gathered he assumed it was related to the scholasticism of Saint Thomas Aquinas.  Yes the heresy might have been an outcome in the same way that Islam was  an outcome of Christianity, but it had nothing to do with the heresy that Saint Gregory was fighting.  That was merely a misinterpretation by the Greeks.

Look these theological matters are beyond me, and frankly I have no concern for details.  All I know is that when somelthing is translated into Latin its whole context changes, so does that mean that Latin should be thrown out considering that:  All Grace Comes From God, and He gives it to those that ask for it?  Does it really matter how we ask for it?  Wouldn't that make one culture and people superior to another and isn't that 'elitism'?  And to go further, isn't elitism akin to 'pride', and doesn't all sin come from pride?

Okay I give up, just stating a few of my thoughts.  Undecided
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 02:44:38 PM by Zenovia » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2012, 02:54:48 PM »

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

Well, to be heretic, one does not need to be declared heretic by an ecumenical council. For example, marcionism was condemned by a local council. Arianism was first locally condemned by a local council. Latin doctrines have been condemned by different councils :

- Photian council of 879
- Palamite councils in the 14th century
- the encyclics from the Eastern patriarchs reconfirmed again the heretic nature of catholicism
- many saints confirms this too

Regarding the WCC, I don't know its chart but one can be christian and heretic at the same time because heretics are christians who deviate on a certain point.

Look I don't know Orthodox theology and where it differs from the RCC other than in semantics, but I do know that Saint Nektarios had discourses with a Latin Cardinal and found they were wrong in something and I do have the greatest respect for Saint Nektarios.    I don't know where he found they were wrong, but I do know that we consider the two Catholic dogmas regarding our Theotokos incomplete and therefore not in error.  Also Saint Gregory Palamas said that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son but in different ways.

Saints though can be wrong, since they are products of a specific culture and time.  Also human beings are limited, so  God can only give people the amount of knowledge needed for their spiritual welfare  within the time and place they live in.  I'm sure this has caused a great deal  of  friction between faiths but God separated people culturally with the Tower of Bable so He never really intended  us to be the same and to see things the same way.  

As for Saint Gregory Palamas, he was fighting the heresy of Barlaam and from what I gathered he assumed it was related to the scholasticism of Saint Thomas Aquinas.  Yes the heresy might have been an outcome in the same way that Islam was  an outcome of Christianity, but it had nothing to do with the heresy that Saint Gregory was fighting.  That was merely a misinterpretation by the Greeks.

Look these theological matters are beyond me, and frankly I have no concern for details.  All I know is that when somelthing is translated into Latin its whole context changes, so does that mean that Latin should be thrown out considering that:  All Grace Comes From God, and He gives it to those that ask for it?  Does it really matter how we ask for it?  Wouldn't that make one culture and people superior to another and isn't that 'elitism'?  And to go further, isn't elitism akin to 'pride', and doesn't all sin come from pride?
How is it prideful to seek to know and proclaim only the Truth?
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Zenovia
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« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »

I have a question here.  If we don't accept the sacraments of Churches under the Pope as being sacraments, then what difference would it make if someone received the Eucharist in a Catholic Church or not since it is looked upon as worthless? 

And another question, in WWII concentration camps Orthodox priests gave the Eucharist to Catholics and I believe visa versa as well, were they wrong in doing so?   Would Father Arseny have denied the Eucharist to a Catholic in the Soviet Gulag?

Don't mind me, but I have a problem with elitism.  This doesn't mean I see all Churches as being equal in Grace, but I don't see them as being equal in Grace even within denominations.  Undecided

Well Zenovia blessings and mysteries from the heretics are in fact curses and spiritually dangerous. We could say, a spiritual poison. Here are some orthodox quotations proving this :

1° Saint Theodore the Studite called the communion of heretics, food of demons

If we read the canons and their commentary, this is also confirmed. The canon 32 of Laodicea says :


32. That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather misfortunes than blessings.

Interpretation (by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorithe)

According to the present Canon no Christian ought to accept blessings from heretics, since they are not blessings, but rather misfortunes. See also Ap. c. XLV.

What people may have have done or do out of ignorance is not an excuse for contemporary bad behaviours.

I agree, and I certainly would not want a blessing from a Mormon, a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness, but was the Latin Church declared a heresy at a Ecumenical Council in which all the bishops of the world attended?  Let's not forget that we belonged to the World Council of Churches which considered any Church accepting  the Nicene Creed as being Christian and therefore not a heresy.  Wouldn't the Latin Church also fall into that category? Huh

I wrote too quickly here.  I was blessed by Jews in a hospital once, and I do consider it a blessing and I thank them for it.  By the same token, any blessing coming from people no matter how far they are from God, (in this I include so called Christians), is still a blessing and will still affect a person in a positive way.  While any 'curse' by anyone even a so called Christian will definitely have a negative affect on a person.

My opinion comes from my own personal experiences as well as the writings by Elders such as Porphyrios who said that  every bad thought, no matter how small will affect that person and that we must always think good of another.  This contradicts the cannon you mentioned that blessings from heretics are harmful, and this is why I wrote that even what saints say can be affected by the time and place they live in. angel

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