OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 12:20:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodoxinfo.com  (Read 2405 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2014, 02:57:23 PM »

To be fair, Father states it was A protestant mindset, not THE protestant mindset.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,975


« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2014, 04:03:31 PM »

I think that such activities send the wrong message and create a false illusion that there is a unity that does not in fact exist. However, the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Bishops have a right according to Orthodox canon law to exercise economy on this question.
Fr. John

While it is true that there are many Orthodox participants in the Ecumenical Movement who participate in dialogue and other activities with the firm conviction that only the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and that true unity, joint prayer, and communion can only exist when the non-Orthodox renounce their heresies and join the Orthodox Church; unfortunately it is the Ecumenical Patriarchate that continues to fan the flames of scandal and sectarianism by his provocative words and deeds which are reflective of a Protestant rather than an Orthodox mindset.  All of this propaganda about the EP meeting another "great spiritual leader of the Church" is expressive of a heretical two-lung ecclesiology.  It is a great embarrassment to many of us Orthodox to see our bishops look on in silence and fail to call out the EP for his betrayals as did Met. Philaret to Patriarch Athenagoras in the 1960s.  These words and gestures of the EP are scandalous and accomplish nothing.  They also contradict the anti-syncretistic and anti-false ecumenistic teachings of the contemporary God-bearing elders that the EP is adding to the list of glorified saints even while turning his back on their holy, zealous, and right-confessing teachings.   
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2014, 04:25:15 PM »

I think that such activities send the wrong message and create a false illusion that there is a unity that does not in fact exist. However, the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Bishops have a right according to Orthodox canon law to exercise economy on this question.
Fr. John

While it is true that there are many Orthodox participants in the Ecumenical Movement who participate in dialogue and other activities with the firm conviction that only the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and that true unity, joint prayer, and communion can only exist when the non-Orthodox renounce their heresies and join the Orthodox Church; unfortunately it is the Ecumenical Patriarchate that continues to fan the flames of scandal and sectarianism by his provocative words and deeds which are reflective of a Protestant rather than an Orthodox mindset.  All of this propaganda about the EP meeting another "great spiritual leader of the Church" is expressive of a heretical two-lung ecclesiology.  It is a great embarrassment to many of us Orthodox to see our bishops look on in silence and fail to call out the EP for his betrayals as did Met. Philaret to Patriarch Athenagoras in the 1960s.  These words and gestures of the EP are scandalous and accomplish nothing.  They also contradict the anti-syncretistic and anti-false ecumenistic teachings of the contemporary God-bearing elders that the EP is adding to the list of glorified saints even while turning his back on their holy, zealous, and right-confessing teachings.  
I'm all for rapproachement, but I will admit that this phrasing was extremely poorly chosen. Perhaps saying "a great spiritual leader in the Christian faith" would have been a better way to convey the sentiment.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 04:26:45 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
JGHunter
Settling dust
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Kingdom of Heaven
Posts: 300



« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2014, 05:21:53 PM »

Father told me to avoid blogs and other stuff like that and keep to "official" stuff rather than people's ramblings.

You have a fine priest. Stick to his advice.

Although Fr. Ted's blog is a radiant exception.

Why take the advice of a chain smoking incompetent Roman Catholic?

Ohhhh

EDIT: But seriously, a good blog, just started reading some of the entries over.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 05:28:39 PM by JGHunter » Logged

Lord Deliver Us.

I no longer use this profile for conversation, only news, PMs and prayer requests.
DeniseDenise
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,700


Pre-heating the Oven!


« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2014, 05:24:30 PM »

Father told me to avoid blogs and other stuff like that and keep to "official" stuff rather than people's ramblings.

You have a fine priest. Stick to his advice.

Although Fr. Ted's blog is a radiant exception.

Why take the advice of a chain smoking incompetent Roman Catholic?

Ohhhh


 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
Logged
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2014, 05:38:31 PM »

To be fair, Father states it was A protestant mindset, not THE protestant mindset.

Without qualification. I could just as easily that the same way of thinking is "an" Orthodox mindset since I know many faithful Orthodox Christians who hold it, as well as several priests, none of which have been declared heretical.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 05:41:56 PM by Punch » Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2014, 07:16:04 PM »

To be fair, Father states it was A protestant mindset, not THE protestant mindset.

Without qualification. I could just as easily that the same way of thinking is "an" Orthodox mindset since I know many faithful Orthodox Christians who hold it, as well as several priests, none of which have been declared heretical.
The position we are discussing is one of an ethereal, invisible Church. It is certainly possible that there are Orthodox Christians that hold to that, but it is most definitely NOT an Orthodox mindset. The Church has been very clear that the Church is a visible entity. Sacraments make no sense in the context of an invisible church.  On the other hand, the invisible church was a theological construct championed by Calvin and further developed in pietist theology. It is the standard construct of every mainline Protestant denomination. In that sense, it can clearly be said that it is a protestant mindset, even if there are various protestant sects that construct their eccesiology differently.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,163


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2014, 08:02:52 PM »

Fr John, that post was a non sequitur and in fact you are exemplifying the very tendency that I pointed out: that you can't sit on the fence when it comes to ecumenism. Either you accept it and defend it, as you are doing, or you reject it completely, as the GOC is doing. The guy who runs orthodoxinfo.com, Patrick Barnes, who is very admirable in many ways, recognizes that ecumenism is a serious threat to Orthodoxy, but while recognizing the threat he maintains we should remain in communion with it. I was under the impression that fewer and fewer Orthodox follow this line and instead make a choice: either they stop thinking ecumenism is a problem, or they acknowledge that if it is such a big problem, the only course left to them is to end communion with it. Some others here think I am wrong and there are still a lot of "fence-sitters", e.g. in Greece, so I may well be wrong about this trend. But that is a separate issue of whether Orthodox ecumenism is justified, which is not appropriate to discuss here.
Perhaps it would be better if you give us your definition of ecumenism. The term means many things to many people.

It means the belief that non-Orthodox are somehow part of the Church despite having different doctrines. That is the premise for allowing common prayer, for example: while they are not in "full" communion, they are nevertheless part of the Church in a broader sense and so it is appropriate to hold prayer services with them. The GOC, and many conservatives in the State Church, maintain that this itself is not Orthodox, that there is no "Church in a broader sense", but that the heterodox are completely outside the Church and prayer with them is absolutely forbidden. Other aspects of ecumenism include addressing heterodox bishops and clergy as true bishops and clergy in some sense, which is seen by e.g. the reception of the Pope as Bishop of Rome by the late Abp Christodoulos of Athens, or the concelebrations between the EP and the Pope where e.g. the deacon prays for the Pope as Bishop of Rome in the litanies.

If you need more information, I would recommend consulting the website orthodoxinfo.com Wink

You have proven my point. Your definition of ecumenism is a Protestant definition that the Eastern Orthodox Church rejects. Orthodox participation in any ecumenical activity is based on the Toronto Statement adopted by the Eastern Orthodox at the meeting of the World Council of Churches in Toronto in 1950 which states that membership in an ecumenical organization such as the World Council of Churches does not imply recognition by the Eastern Orthodox Church of the other bodies as Church in the fullest sense of the word. Other documents such as the Oberlin Statement presented by the Orthodox at a meeting of the North American Faith and Order Study Conference could not be clearer that as far as the Orthodox Church is concerned the Church is not divided, but is instead found fully and completely in the Eastern Orthodox church.
The unity we seek” is for us a given unity which has never been lost, and as a Divine gift and an essential mark of Christian existence, could not have been lost. This unity in the Church of Christ is for us a unity in the historical Church, in the fullness of faith, in the fullness of continuous sacramental life. For us, this unity is embodied in the Orthodox Church, which kept, catholikos and anelleipos, both the integrity of the apostolic faith and the integrity of the apostolic order.
Any common prayer between Orthodox and non Orthodox is done following very strict rules that are meant to show that we are not in Communion and that prayer with non-Orthodox is an exercise of economy. I personally do not agree that we should use economy in this way, but I am not a Bishop, much less the Ecumenical Patriarch. As an Antiochian Priest, I obey my Bishop who forbids such participation in so called ecumenical worship. I think that such activities send the wrong message and create a false illusion that there is a unity that does not in fact exist. However, the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Bishops have a right according to Orthodox canon law to exercise economy on this question.
Fr. John

Why are you still debating this when you yourself admit that this is off-topic? Are you really that without self-control?
The tangential discussion I tried to rein in as a service to my colleague Thomas was specifically the discussion on the matter of the rebaptism of converts, which we've recently discussed on another thread on a different board. However, I do need to recognize that the topic of this thread here is the web site known as orthodoxinfo.com. Not only is the discussion of the rebaptism of converts off topic, so also is the discussion of ecumenism in and of itself off topic. If you want to review specifically orthodoxinfo.com's take on ecumenism and how this should shape our relations with the site, that's fine, but simple debating the definition of ecumenism per se is not.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 08:04:01 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2014, 08:17:49 PM »

To be fair, Father states it was A protestant mindset, not THE protestant mindset.

Without qualification. I could just as easily that the same way of thinking is "an" Orthodox mindset since I know many faithful Orthodox Christians who hold it, as well as several priests, none of which have been declared heretical.
The position we are discussing is one of an ethereal, invisible Church. It is certainly possible that there are Orthodox Christians that hold to that, but it is most definitely NOT an Orthodox mindset. The Church has been very clear that the Church is a visible entity. Sacraments make no sense in the context of an invisible church.  On the other hand, the invisible church was a theological construct championed by Calvin and further developed in pietist theology. It is the standard construct of every mainline Protestant denomination. In that sense, it can clearly be said that it is a protestant mindset, even if there are various protestant sects that construct their eccesiology differently.

I think that is a little simplistic of an understanding.  Luther taught that there was a visible Church.  However, he also taught that there were people in Christ who were not part of the visible Church, and there were people in the visible Church who are not in Christ.  I have not run into any Orthodox Christians, except a few Netodox, who do not believe this.  And that includes all three priests that I have served under in three different jurisdictions. 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
DeniseDenise
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,700


Pre-heating the Oven!


« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2014, 09:34:25 PM »

In a shocker....I agree with PtA.

Honestly, for a Convert Issues discussion, this is probably well above the level of understanding that pre and recent converts 'get', or care to get at this stage.

People need to walk before they can 'run over to what they feel is a less ecumenical church' Wink

Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,838



« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2014, 10:33:04 PM »

After reviewing this  topic it appears it has gone beyond Convert Issues level of basic response and so I will be locking the topic. If you wish to continue this topic Please go to a topic group that you think appropriate to continue your more advanced discussions.

Thanks for positing in Convert Issues.
Thomas
Convert  Issues Forum Moderator
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.085 seconds with 39 queries.