Topic: Did Jesus fulfill all the signs?

[What is the Light]

I'm trying to figure out if Jesus fuflilled the signs from the Hebrew Bible. According to this source http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html (it's a Jewish website)  Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies. Is modern Judaism wrong about what the prophecies? Did Jesus fulfill the prophecies in a different way.

What do you think?

[lovesupreme]

AISH is an Orthodox Jewish organization whose main goal is to encourage secular and Reform Jews to return to a religious (albeit modern) lifestyle. This means turning their potential "converts" (although one born Jewish does not need to convert) away from other religions. Because Christians, especially Messianic Jews that target the same demographic, make claims that Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament, they are obviously going to try to refute those claims.

You may be interested that the same refutations have been applied by critics of Chabad Chassidus Orthodox Judaism; some of their followers hold that the recently deceased leader, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the Jewish Messiah and will return from the dead. While Messianists claim to trace the rabbi's patrilineal ancestry to King David (something they claim Jesus can't have, being supposedly born to God, although its usually assumed that Mary had been impregnated by a human), he did not satisfy most of the same requirements that Jesus would be held to, namely that Jews did not universally flock to the Torah. While Schneerson did lead a nationwide effort to encourage Jews to study and observe Torah, there are still many secular Jews who have not turned to it. Still, that's more than can be said for Jesus, who Jews believe disregarded the Torah and its laws.

There are many anti-Messianic missionary sites out there that focus on refuting passages in the Old Testament that Christians say allude to Jesus. Here are a few, if you're interested:

• http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=431&Itemid=477
• http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/anti-missionary-mp3s/
• http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/
• http://www.jewishpath.org/messianics.html

Having been exposed to these points regularly when I was a Jew, I'd be curious to hear Christian, especially Orthodox, rebuttals.

[age234]

A number of these apologia for Judaism assert mistranslations on the part of Christians. An Orthodox rebuttal would be that the Greek Septuagint (which we use as our Old Testament) was not only translated by Jews (3rd century BC), but was used by Greek-speaking Jews for centuries, and the oldest manuscripts of the OT are in fact the Septuagint. To accuse us of mistranslation is nonsensical, as we didn't translate anything.

As for the Virgin Birth, the claim of "who could know?" makes no sense. The Theotokos knew the Apostles, obviously, so she had ample opportunities to tell them. It's not as if every single thing that happened and was said was recorded in the Gospels—the Gospels are not a chronicle. They are a different genre. Church tradition says St Luke interviewed her when he was writing his Gospel, so it would have come to light then as well.

I've not read it, but "Surprised by Christ" by Fr. James Bernstein could shed more light on these matters.

And, Orthodox view "Messianic Jews" as strangely as Jews seem to. It's a recent phenomenon of Protestants misapplying their hunger for tradition.

[psalm110]

I find these anti-missionary sites very aggressive and hateful towards the way they proclaim Jesus as a false Messiah. They feel so aggravated, that there human complication changes into some-what as an angry dragon towards someone that spoke and preached LOVE.

Sighs,

Isaiah 65:1-2     NIV
“I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
    I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
    I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
2 All day long I have held out my hands
    to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
    pursuing their own imaginations.

[elephant]

Dear What is,

As age234 was saying, you may wish to look into the fact that the Orthodox Church uses the Septuagint not the Masoretic text of the OT.   

Just last night I was reading "Christology" , a book written by St. Nectarios Metropolitan of Pentapolis and Wonderworker of Aegina, +1920.  The book was recently translated into English and published by the Holy Monastery of Saint Nektarios in Roscoe NY.  St. Nectarios published a number of books, especially while he was the dean of  the Rizarios Ecclesiastical School in Athens. 

"Christology" has a large section devoted to discussing how Jesus fulfills the prophesies of the Old Testament and the expectations of all nations.

love, elephant

[psalm110]

"Christology" has a large section devoted to discussing how Jesus fulfills the prophesies of the Old Testament and the expectations of all nations.

love, elephant

Does the Book from St Nectarios - provided verse by verse regarding the Messiah in the Old Testament ?

[elephant]

Dear psalm110,

Here is the Table of Contents from "Christology":

Part I: The Expectation of the Nations
1. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life
2. Concerning the name "Son of Man"
3. Concerning the Expectation of the Nations
4. God revealed the coming of the Redeemer
5. Indications and signs of the Redeemer's coming
6. The coming of the Redeemer was absolutely necessary

Part II: The Divinity of Christ
1. Man always sought eternal life
2. Man's burning desire has been fulfilled
3. Characteristic features of the Savior, Who fulfills the heart's desires
4. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the proclaimed Savior of the world
5. His Consubstantiality with the Father
6. God in the Old Testament is the Son of God the Father, Who became Man
7. The Divine character of our Lord Jesus Christ, witnessed by the great sign
8. Christ's Divine nature attested to by the moral rebirth that took place in the world
9. Christ's Divinity as witnessed by history
10. Only the Son of God could have taught man the truth
11. Christ's Divinity witnessed by His words
12. Perfect Fulfillment of Christ's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem
13. Concerning the prodigies that occurred in Judaea

Part III: God’s Revelation to the World
1. The ignorance of God and man is the reason for the rejection of miracles
2. The notion of God as an absolute being supports His revelation to the world
3. God's benevolence reveals Him to the world
4. Concerning God's special relationship with man
5. Concerning the way that Divine revelation takes place
6. Man's spiritual nature is in need of Divine revelation
7. Concerning God's revelation to the world through Holy Scripture
8. Prophecies concerning the prosperity and good fortune of Israel
9. Prophecies concerning the destruction of Judaea, and the unbelief of the Jews
10. Prophecies concerning the tribe, generation, and birthplace of the Messiah
11. Thoughts on Christ's teaching
12. The Holy Gospels depict the Messiah as prophesied
13. Prophecies concerning the passion, death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah
14. Prophecies concerning the return of the nations to the Living God
15. The time appointed by the prophets has been fulfilled
16. Daniel's prophecy concurs with Greek and Roman chronology
17. Prophecies that were fulfilled after the seventy weeks

Part IV: The Brilliance of the Christian Faith
1. He who perceives God's existence is obligated to believe in His revelation
2. The virtuous Christian attests to the brilliance of the Christian Faith
3. The light contained within the Holy Scriptures attests to the brilliance of the Christian Faith
4. The fervent love that develops within the Christian attests to the brilliance of his faith
5. The Christian Faith is brilliant because it adorns the faithful with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
6. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ
7. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by the rapid establishment of the Church
8. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by Christ's Church

Appendices:
- Ordering of the 49 Books of the Septuagint (Old Testament)
- Approximate time when various prophets lived (B.C.)
- The Septuagint

Love, elephant

[jewish voice]

A number of these apologia for Judaism assert mistranslations on the part of Christians. An Orthodox rebuttal would be that the Greek Septuagint (which we use as our Old Testament) was not only translated by Jews (3rd century BC), but was used by Greek-speaking Jews for centuries, and the oldest manuscripts of the OT are in fact the Septuagint. To accuse us of mistranslation is nonsensical, as we didn't translate anything.

As for the Virgin Birth, the claim of "who could know?" makes no sense. The Theotokos knew the Apostles, obviously, so she had ample opportunities to tell them. It's not as if every single thing that happened and was said was recorded in the Gospels—the Gospels are not a chronicle. They are a different genre. Church tradition says St Luke interviewed her when he was writing his Gospel, so it would have come to light then as well.

I've not read it, but "Surprised by Christ" by Fr. James Bernstein could shed more light on these matters.

And, Orthodox view "Messianic Jews" as strangely as Jews seem to. It's a recent phenomenon of Protestants misapplying their hunger for tradition.

The Septuagint part that the Jews did was the Torah part only (first five books of bible) The rest of the books was done by Greeks and maybe the church on it's own.   As a result, early Jewish translations of the Torah into Koine Greek by Jewish ... Other versions are now preserved only in fragmentary form. ... Jewish scholars first translated the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) into Koine Greek ... because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint 

Come on wiki can get this much right at times there are more out there if you would just take the time to search on this issue

[psalm110]

Dear psalm110,

Here is the Table of Contents from "Christology":

Part I: The Expectation of the Nations
1. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life
2. Concerning the name "Son of Man"
3. Concerning the Expectation of the Nations
4. God revealed the coming of the Redeemer
5. Indications and signs of the Redeemer's coming
6. The coming of the Redeemer was absolutely necessary

Part II: The Divinity of Christ
1. Man always sought eternal life
2. Man's burning desire has been fulfilled
3. Characteristic features of the Savior, Who fulfills the heart's desires
4. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the proclaimed Savior of the world
5. His Consubstantiality with the Father
6. God in the Old Testament is the Son of God the Father, Who became Man
7. The Divine character of our Lord Jesus Christ, witnessed by the great sign
8. Christ's Divine nature attested to by the moral rebirth that took place in the world
9. Christ's Divinity as witnessed by history
10. Only the Son of God could have taught man the truth
11. Christ's Divinity witnessed by His words
12. Perfect Fulfillment of Christ's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem
13. Concerning the prodigies that occurred in Judaea

Part III: God’s Revelation to the World
1. The ignorance of God and man is the reason for the rejection of miracles
2. The notion of God as an absolute being supports His revelation to the world
3. God's benevolence reveals Him to the world
4. Concerning God's special relationship with man
5. Concerning the way that Divine revelation takes place
6. Man's spiritual nature is in need of Divine revelation
7. Concerning God's revelation to the world through Holy Scripture
8. Prophecies concerning the prosperity and good fortune of Israel
9. Prophecies concerning the destruction of Judaea, and the unbelief of the Jews
10. Prophecies concerning the tribe, generation, and birthplace of the Messiah
11. Thoughts on Christ's teaching
12. The Holy Gospels depict the Messiah as prophesied
13. Prophecies concerning the passion, death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah
14. Prophecies concerning the return of the nations to the Living God
15. The time appointed by the prophets has been fulfilled
16. Daniel's prophecy concurs with Greek and Roman chronology
17. Prophecies that were fulfilled after the seventy weeks

Part IV: The Brilliance of the Christian Faith
1. He who perceives God's existence is obligated to believe in His revelation
2. The virtuous Christian attests to the brilliance of the Christian Faith
3. The light contained within the Holy Scriptures attests to the brilliance of the Christian Faith
4. The fervent love that develops within the Christian attests to the brilliance of his faith
5. The Christian Faith is brilliant because it adorns the faithful with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
6. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ
7. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by the rapid establishment of the Church
8. The brilliance of the Christian Faith witnessed by Christ's Church

Appendices:
- Ordering of the 49 Books of the Septuagint (Old Testament)
- Approximate time when various prophets lived (B.C.)
- The Septuagint

Love, elephant

Thanks for taking the time to do that I have just put an order through for it.

[jmbejdl]

A number of these apologia for Judaism assert mistranslations on the part of Christians. An Orthodox rebuttal would be that the Greek Septuagint (which we use as our Old Testament) was not only translated by Jews (3rd century BC), but was used by Greek-speaking Jews for centuries, and the oldest manuscripts of the OT are in fact the Septuagint. To accuse us of mistranslation is nonsensical, as we didn't translate anything.

As for the Virgin Birth, the claim of "who could know?" makes no sense. The Theotokos knew the Apostles, obviously, so she had ample opportunities to tell them. It's not as if every single thing that happened and was said was recorded in the Gospels—the Gospels are not a chronicle. They are a different genre. Church tradition says St Luke interviewed her when he was writing his Gospel, so it would have come to light then as well.

I've not read it, but "Surprised by Christ" by Fr. James Bernstein could shed more light on these matters.

And, Orthodox view "Messianic Jews" as strangely as Jews seem to. It's a recent phenomenon of Protestants misapplying their hunger for tradition.

The Septuagint part that the Jews did was the Torah part only (first five books of bible) The rest of the books was done by Greeks and maybe the church on it's own.   As a result, early Jewish translations of the Torah into Koine Greek by Jewish ... Other versions are now preserved only in fragmentary form. ... Jewish scholars first translated the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) into Koine Greek ... because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint 

Come on wiki can get this much right at times there are more out there if you would just take the time to search on this issue

You're right that the initial translation of the LXX was just the Torah, but after that less so. The Septuagint as used by the Church is pre-Christian. The other books were already translated and considered part of the LXX by the time of Christ and they were in use by hellenised Jews in the diaspora. Now you can argue that the additional books were translated by Greeks if you like and I certainly can't prove you wrong but the likelihood, compared to them being translated by the same diaspora Jewish communities that used them, would seem to me to be vanishingly small.

James

[psalm110]

I would be interested the finds of ancient archaeology scrolls of Psalm (21)22 has to say especially about Psalm 21:17 "Pierced My hands and my feet"