Author Topic: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage  (Read 1774 times)

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2015, 06:52:28 AM »
The question I have is how those who are rigorists on the issue of divorce deal with Canon 9 of St. Basil. According to St. Basil, whose canons have always comprised a major portion of Eastern canon law, a man may divorce his wife and take another on the grounds of fornication. In principle, a wife ought also to be able to do this, although in this canon, he forbids it, stating that it is contrary to custom.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 06:52:51 AM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2015, 01:42:08 PM »
Hi Mor Eprhem. Well, up until relatively recently, this was not an issue in the Roman Catholic Church and was considered settled by all orthodox and well-informed Catholics. But ok, if you and Wandile really prefer, we'll leave the West out of this.

Let's be clear...I don't mind bringing the West into this.  But Wandile pretty much demanded it.  I don't think it was very sincere, but there it is. 

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Now, please show me one example of a manifestly false statement you think Cardinal Burke, Pell, Mueller or any conservative theologian has made that you say "any first year seminarian or well read layman would know are wrong"?

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Second and third marriages, unlike the first marriage, are celebrated among the Orthodox with a special rite, referred to as “penitential.” Since in ancient times the rite of second marriages omitted the crowning of the spouses - which Orthodox theology sees as the essential moment of the wedding - second marriages are not a true sacrament, but to use the Latin terminology, a “sacramental,” which allows the new spouses to consider their union as fully accepted by the ecclesial community. The secondary wedding ceremony is also applied in the case of widowed spouses.

The non-sacramental nature of second marriages finds confirmation in the disappearance of Eucharistic communion from Byzantine marriage ceremonies, being replaced by a cup understood as a symbol of life together. This appears to be an attempt to “de-sacramentalize” the marriage, perhaps on account of the growing embarrassment that second and third marriages induced because of the exemption from the principle of the indissolubility of the bond, which is directly proportional to the sacrament of unity: the Eucharist.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350806?eng=y
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2015, 11:48:44 PM »
Henry VIII impiously thought he could put away his wife and desire another, yet the Pope heroically withstood this insanity.
LOL.
He wasn't so heroic when he gave Henry's aunt what Henry called "that shameless sentence from Rome."
Henry was off in England, but Catherine's nephew occupied Rome. Heroism had nothing to do with it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2015, 11:59:30 PM »
a novelty, like many others, imposed by the Byzantine emperor on much of the East.

bs.
Point blank history actually

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.Leo VI caused a major scandal with his numerous marriages which failed to produce a legitimate heir to the throne. His first wife Theophano, whom Basil had forced him to marry on account of her family connections to the Martinakioi, and whom Leo hated, died in 897, and Leo married Zoe Zaoutzaina, the daughter of his adviser Stylianos Zaoutzes, though she died as well in 899. Upon this marriage Leo created the title of basileopatōr ("father of the emperor") for his father-in-law.

After Zoe's death a third marriage was technically illegal, but he married again, only to have his third wife Eudokia Baïana die in 901, Instead of marrying a fourth time, which would have been an even greater sin than a third marriage (according to the Patriarch Nicholas Mystikos) Leo took as mistress Zoe Karbonopsina. He married her only after she had given birth to a son in 905,[36] but incurred the opposition of the patriarch. Replacing Nicholas Mystikos with Euthymios, Leo got his marriage recognized by the church (albeit with a long penance attached, and with an assurance that Leo would outlaw all future fourth marriages)...On March 1, 901, Nicholas was appointed patriarch. However, he fell out with Leo VI over the latter's fourth marriage to his mistress Zoe Karbonopsina. Although he reluctantly baptized the fruit of this relationship, the future Constantine VII, Nicholas forbade the emperor from entering the church and may have become involved in the revolt of Andronikos Doukas. He was deposed as patriarch on February 1, 907 and replaced by Euthymios...Sergius; the pope sent papal legates to Constantinople, who confirmed the pope’s ruling in favour of the emperor, on the grounds that fourth marriages had not been condemned by the Church as a whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_VI_the_Wise#Leo.27s_marriages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mystikos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

you fail history again.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2015, 11:42:05 AM »
To my understanding to orthodox church is very strict when it comes to divorce and remarriage.

Someone once shared with me that according to The Orthodox Church (forgive me if i am not quoting with the correct words)

First marriage is blessed
Second marriage is shameful
Third marriage is lawlessness

Clergy who allow third marriage are doing so on their own consciences/putting their head on the table or something like that
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 11:55:17 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #95 on: May 30, 2015, 03:05:35 PM »
To my understanding to orthodox church is very strict when it comes to divorce and remarriage.

Someone once shared with me that according to The Orthodox Church (forgive me if i am not quoting with the correct words)

First marriage is blessed
Second marriage is shameful
Third marriage is lawlessness

Clergy who allow third marriage are doing so on their own consciences/putting their head on the table or something like that
Where did you get this piece of claptrap? ???
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #96 on: May 30, 2015, 06:29:03 PM »
To my understanding to orthodox church is very strict when it comes to divorce and remarriage.

Someone once shared with me that according to The Orthodox Church (forgive me if i am not quoting with the correct words)

First marriage is blessed
Second marriage is shameful
Third marriage is lawlessness

Clergy who allow third marriage are doing so on their own consciences/putting their head on the table or something like that
Where did you get this piece of claptrap? ???
That would be a paraphrase of Pope St Gregory the Great: “The first marriage is legal, the second is a concession, the third is a transgression of law, and one beyond this, the life of a swine, which does not have many examples of its evil.” (Homily 37.8)ould be Pope St Gregory the Great
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Offline wgw

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2015, 06:31:21 PM »
Which indicates that he permitted such marriages while frowning upon them deeply.  I am inclined to agree, but we do perform second and third marriaepges with a penitential character.

However these days so many people have gone over to the law of swine.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2015, 11:58:18 PM »
To my understanding to orthodox church is very strict when it comes to divorce and remarriage.

Someone once shared with me that according to The Orthodox Church (forgive me if i am not quoting with the correct words)

First marriage is blessed
Second marriage is shameful
Third marriage is lawlessness

Clergy who allow third marriage are doing so on their own consciences/putting their head on the table or something like that
Where did you get this piece of claptrap? ???
That would be a paraphrase of Pope St Gregory the Great: “The first marriage is legal, the second is a concession, the third is a transgression of law, and one beyond this, the life of a swine, which does not have many examples of its evil.” (Homily 37.8)ould be Pope St Gregory the Great
It is St. Gregory the Theologian, and not Pope St. Gregory, who wrote that text. Here is the quotation taken from his Homily 37:8 from the NPNF series: "The first is law, the second is indulgence, the third is transgression, and anything beyond this is swinish, such as has not even many examples of its wickedness."
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Offline wgw

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2015, 01:20:56 AM »
Well perhaps an unspoken Catholic dictum is when in doubt regarding which Gregory wrote something, ascribe it to St. Gregory the Great.

However, St.Gregory Diologos was truly a good Patriarch of Rome, the most worthy man to hold that office since St. Clement.  Most of the pre schism Roman Patriarchs with the exception of the odd villain like Victor, Honorius or in my biased Oriental opinion, Leo I, who dared to appropriate the Pagan title Pontifex Maximus, and in so doing IMO demeaned the Roman Patriarchate, were theologically conservative, thoroughly reliable figures, but only two spring to mind as exceptional leaders, Ss. Clement and Gregory Diologos.  Most of the Fathers we venerate were either lay monastics or theologians, or the Bishops of relatively minor sees, with the Alexandrian Popes being somewhat disproportionately represented (Ss. Mark, Peter the Martyr, Alexander. Athanasius, Cyril, and for the OO, Dioscorus).  Cappadocia was even more disproportionately represented.  However St. Gregory Diologos was definitely a breakthrough leader; although I would disagree with him about Chalcedon and the role of his fourth century predecessor, every action he is recorded as doing I support.  I love the probably apocryphal story of his encounter with Angle slaves that made him resolve to restore communication with the British church and evangelize the conquerors of the former British province.  But there is much that he certainly did do that cannot be ascribed to mere hagiography that I think was superb.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2015, 11:31:08 PM »
Well perhaps an unspoken Catholic dictum is when in doubt regarding which Gregory wrote something, ascribe it to St. Gregory the Great.

However, St.Gregory Diologos was truly a good Patriarch of Rome, the most worthy man to hold that office since St. Clement.  Most of the pre schism Roman Patriarchs with the exception of the odd villain like Victor, Honorius or in my biased Oriental opinion, Leo I, who dared to appropriate the Pagan title Pontifex Maximus, and in so doing IMO demeaned the Roman Patriarchate, were theologically conservative, thoroughly reliable figures, but only two spring to mind as exceptional leaders, Ss. Clement and Gregory Diologos.  Most of the Fathers we venerate were either lay monastics or theologians, or the Bishops of relatively minor sees, with the Alexandrian Popes being somewhat disproportionately represented (Ss. Mark, Peter the Martyr, Alexander. Athanasius, Cyril, and for the OO, Dioscorus).  Cappadocia was even more disproportionately represented.  However St. Gregory Diologos was definitely a breakthrough leader; although I would disagree with him about Chalcedon and the role of his fourth century predecessor, every action he is recorded as doing I support.  I love the probably apocryphal story of his encounter with Angle slaves that made him resolve to restore communication with the British church and evangelize the conquerors of the former British province.  But there is much that he certainly did do that cannot be ascribed to mere hagiography that I think was superb.

Very happily married to my second wife. My first wife died from cancer, Memory eternal. My present wife is also a convert from RC to Orthodoxy.  She is divorced from a very abusive relationship from her first husband.  Married in the church and very happy.

Offline truthseeker32

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2015, 12:53:20 PM »
Step 1: Post an attack against Eastern Orthodoxy with no intention of actually having a productive dialogue

Step 2: Refuse to acknowledge any good rebuttals to your attack, claiming they are outside the scope of the conversation

Outcome?: Guaranteed victory!!

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2015, 08:54:16 AM »
Step 1: Post an attack against Eastern Orthodoxy with no intention of actually having a productive dialogue

Step 2: Refuse to acknowledge any good rebuttals to your attack, claiming they are outside the scope of the conversation

Outcome?: Guaranteed victory!!

It's a rather pathetic form of argumentation, I must admit. I could also delude myself into thinking I'm winning an argument by trying to control what can and cannot be spoken. The challenge of course, would be in convincing others of the same when it is so plain what is happening.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2015, 03:59:25 PM »
Step 1: Post an attack against Eastern Orthodoxy with no intention of actually having a productive dialogue

Step 2: Refuse to acknowledge any good rebuttals to your attack, claiming they are outside the scope of the conversation

Outcome?: Guaranteed victory!!

It's a rather pathetic form of argumentation, I must admit. I could also delude myself into thinking I'm winning an argument by trying to control what can and cannot be spoken. The challenge of course, would be in convincing others of the same when it is so plain what is happening.
There is no argument.

What God had joined, may no MAN put asunder. end of story.

There is no 2nd or 3rd try.


The RCC does not grant mulligans.
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Offline kelly

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2015, 04:00:31 PM »
Step 1: Post an attack against Eastern Orthodoxy with no intention of actually having a productive dialogue

Step 2: Refuse to acknowledge any good rebuttals to your attack, claiming they are outside the scope of the conversation

Outcome?: Guaranteed victory!!

It's a rather pathetic form of argumentation, I must admit. I could also delude myself into thinking I'm winning an argument by trying to control what can and cannot be spoken. The challenge of course, would be in convincing others of the same when it is so plain what is happening.
There is no argument.

What God had joined, may no MAN put asunder. end of story.

There is no 2nd or 3rd try.


The RCC does not grant mulligans.

No, they just say there was never a marriage to begin with.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2015, 04:03:18 PM »
The RCC does not grant mulligans.

They do grant an awful lot of annulments.
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Offline kelly

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2015, 04:09:32 PM »
The RCC does not grant mulligans.

They do grant an awful lot of annulments.

I will never understand that. How do they keep marrying people but so many turn out to not have been really married? It doesn't give you a lot of confidence in their ability to dispense sacraments.
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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2015, 08:57:33 PM »
The RCC does not grant mulligans.

They do grant an awful lot of annulments.

I will never understand that. How do they keep marrying people but so many turn out to not have been really married? It doesn't give you a lot of confidence in their ability to dispense sacraments.
I wonder if these accidents happen with their other sacraments.

"Oops, we just discovered that all of Father John's baptisms between January 1 and June 1 were actually non-effectual. Will all those who were sprinkled during that time period please come in sometime within the next week so you get a legit baptism this time!"
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Offline kelly

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2015, 09:00:49 PM »
The RCC does not grant mulligans.

They do grant an awful lot of annulments.

I will never understand that. How do they keep marrying people but so many turn out to not have been really married? It doesn't give you a lot of confidence in their ability to dispense sacraments.
I wonder if these accidents happen with their other sacraments.

"Oops, we just discovered that all of Father John's baptisms between January 1 and June 1 were actually non-effectual. Will all those who were sprinkled during that time period please come in sometime within the next week so you get a legit baptism this time!"

What a great way to give everyone scruples.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

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Offline LBK

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Re: Tradition vs EO 2nd and 3rd marriage
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2015, 11:22:06 PM »
The RCC does not grant mulligans.

They do grant an awful lot of annulments.

I will never understand that. How do they keep marrying people but so many turn out to not have been really married? It doesn't give you a lot of confidence in their ability to dispense sacraments.
I wonder if these accidents happen with their other sacraments.

"Oops, we just discovered that all of Father John's baptisms between January 1 and June 1 were actually non-effectual. Will all those who were sprinkled during that time period please come in sometime within the next week so you get a legit baptism this time!"

That has indeed happened in the RCC. Here's one instance of it, where hundreds of baptisms had to be "legitimized":

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/australian_priests_stop_new_age_baptism_retake_trinitarian_formula/
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