OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 05:00:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Rome to US Eastern Catholics: New Priests Should “Embrace Celibacy”  (Read 7242 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« on: May 16, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »

Signaling a possible shift in policy, Catholic News Service today reported the comments of the head of the papal office overseeing US Eastern Catholic Bishops that new vocations to the priesthood in US Eastern Catholic Churches should be “embracing celibacy” because “mandatory celibacy is the general rule for priests” in the US. For the past several years, Eastern Catholic Bishops in the US have had the option of requesting dispensations from the celibacy rule from Rome to allow for the ordination of married men to the priesthood. While it is not yet known if this signifies a change in policy on the issue, this is the first time in decades for a Vatican official to publicly encourage celibacy for Eastern Catholic clergy. It also contrasts with recent allowances of some ordinations of married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite among clergy converts from Protestant churches.

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/rome-to-us-eastern-catholics-new-priests-should-embrace-celibacy/
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,255


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »

bummer
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 10:08:45 AM »

Are we really surprised?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,255


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 10:09:25 AM »

Are we really surprised?
Yes. Quite a few of us thought we were moving in the opposite direction.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 11:03:02 AM »

Well, I guess they cant keep their traditions afterall.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Adela
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746



« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 11:09:42 AM »

So very sad..... Cry 
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 11:11:58 AM »

I personally hope the Vatican turns its suggestion into a demand.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 11:20:58 AM »

I personally hope the Vatican turns its suggestion into a demand.

PP
too honest.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 11:26:49 AM »

I personally hope the Vatican turns its suggestion into a demand.

PP
too honest.
Well, it wouldnt be the first time Rome called a mulligan on a promise so.......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 11:54:32 AM »

"great" more adulterous and pedophile priests coming :|
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 03:30:14 PM »

This development is really troubling to those of us Orthodox who have tried, with limited success, to defend the Eastern Catholic Churches online and try to present the Roman Church in a less hostile manner than others.

Is this a 'redux' of 'Ea Semper' in modern language? Those who forget the past are indeed condemned to repeat its errors. Rome, it seems, has yet to learn that venerable maxim.

I wonder how the many married priests in the BCC and the UGCC who have, in recent years, come here from Europe feel upon reading this news? I often remind my fellow Orthodox that St. Alexis Toth was an educated and well-placed Greek Catholic priest who was well aware of the terms of the unions of Uzghorod and Brest. Formerly the prefect of the Presov Seminary, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he might have been a Greek Catholic bishop there, or in America at some point had he not migrated as a widower to minister the faithful in North America and run into the hostility and arrogance of Archbishop Ireland. Obviously those in power in Rome never grasped that reality - then or now.

In my mind's eye, this reinforces my understanding of the rallying call of my grandparents' time - "Ani do Rim, ani do Moskvi!" (neither to Rome nor to Moscow!) sigh....

Rome is Rome. This notwithstanding, I will continue to pray that all of us whose background was impacted by unfortunate unions, Eastern Catholic and Orthodox alike, remain true to our eastern heritage and that Rome at some point comes to honor her commitments made to the eastern churches in union with her. This is how Rome rewards the loyalty of those Greek Catholics who endured the perils of the 20th century - both self-inflicted by the actions of Rome and reinforced by the compact between the Orthodox and the Communists following the second world war.

As my dad always said, hold the door open for them - they may yet come home.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 03:31:07 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,418


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 03:35:06 PM »

I wonder how the many married priests in the BCC and the UGCC who have, in recent years, come here from Europe feel upon reading this news?
Not to mention the Anglicans running to Rome due to recent events. What's down the road for them?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 03:39:15 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 03:38:55 PM »

Very sad. What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't. It is clear that Rome is very sick, though I personally would like to be able to say otherwise (if only for the sake of the many good people I met in my time as an RC). Lord have mercy on those good Eastern Catholic priests who struggle to minister to the faithful outside of their traditional lands and face such astounding ignorance on the part of their coreligionists at the highest levels of their communion.
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 03:40:20 PM »

I just cant help but imagine the following:

"Keep your liturgy? Sure!" "You want your own law? no problem!" "Your traditions? sure thing!" "Your own bishops? ok fine!" "It'll be just like usual except for communion with Rome."

*meanwhile snickers and chuckles are heard from behind the curtain*

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 03:46:08 PM »

There is indeed nothing new under the sun.

As St. Alexis Toth observed, "I made up my mind to do something which I carried in my heart for a long time, for which my soul longed: that is, to become Orthodox. But how was it to be done. I had to be very cautious. The unfortunate Union, the source of our decline and all our ills, had been part of our people too long. We had already borne that yoke on our shoulders for 250 years. I fervently prayed God to grant me the power to make all this clear to my unenlightened parishioners." http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/saints/stalexistoth

Yet forty years after St. Alexis 'meeting' with Archbishop Ireland, little had changed: "By 1936 there was turmoil in the Greek Catholic Church after repeated pleas for recall of the decrees of celibacy and latinization which had been imposed on parishes.  After no response, parishes met in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at a Church Council.  On February 6, 1936, those parishes selected the Reverend Orestes P. Chornock as administrator for the establishment of a new diocese." http://acrod.org/diocese/formerbishops/metropolitanorestes

Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 04:18:27 PM »

While acknowledging DMD's valid criticism and how bad such statements look to the Orthodox I wouldn't put too much stock into this statement. Italian Cardinals keep pretending the ban is enforce and admonsihing us about it, canonists keep reminding them it was not renewed so it lost the force of law, and Greek Catholic bishops quitely keep ordaining married men, and the past two non-Italian Popes say and do nothing to stop it.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 04:26:51 PM »

I wonder how the many married priests in the BCC and the UGCC who have, in recent years, come here from Europe feel upon reading this news?
Not to mention the Anglicans running to Rome due to recent events. What's down the road for them?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 04:55:56 PM »

"great" more adulterous and pedophile priests coming :|

You know that this does not compute.

Besides, should the Roman Catholic Church decide to do so, if it does not already, there are means for psychological screening that could be employed to sort out unsuitable candidates for the priesthood.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 04:57:53 PM »

Enforced clerical celibacy is one of the only peculiarly Roman things older than papal supremacy. It even predates the use of azymes.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 05:01:14 PM »

While acknowledging DMD's valid criticism and how bad such statements look to the Orthodox I wouldn't put too much stock into this statement. Italian Cardinals keep pretending the ban is enforce and admonsihing us about it, canonists keep reminding them it was not renewed so it lost the force of law, and Greek Catholic bishops quitely keep ordaining married men, and the past two non-Italian Popes say and do nothing to stop it.

But, as was asked elsewhere this afternoon, why do the Popes keep appointing Latin-rite Italian cardinals to manage the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

It is this talking out of both sides of the mouth that is so troubling to us, particularly those of us who try to be open-minded.

Truth be told, any attempt to enforce celibacy in say, Slovakia or better yet, Ukraine, would never be attempted. The rationale used here in the USA could just as well be used in say Slovakia, which is overwhelmingly a Latin-rite Catholic country, regarding celibacy. I suspect that outside of the far eastern counties of that country, the average Roman Catholic is probably as woefully ignorant about the Greek Catholic church as are their counterparts in the USA. It is even more pronounced in the Czech republic, where my cousin is a married Greek Catholic priest with a young family, where the presence of the Eastern Rite really came about following the war with forced relocations and after 1990 as a result of job opportunities. What is the difference? I would argue that it is the willing ignorance of the conservative Latin rite hierarchy in the United States which insists on perpetuating this situation, but that is just my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 05:03:06 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 05:40:59 PM »

DMD,

I see your "Why do the Popes keep appointing Latin-rite Italian cardinals to manage the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?" and raise you a "Why not abolish the Oriental Congregation altogether?" It is simply not needed.

I have no doubt that internal pressure within the Latin Church to get rid of mandatory celibacy is the driving reason behind the current situation for Eastern Catholic Churches. However, the Greek Catholics are the only ones pushing the issue. The Oriental Catholic Churches seem all to happy to have only celibates in the US. Indeed, the Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars have adopted mandatory celibacy, and the Copts, Ethiopians and Syriacs seem to favor it. The Armenians, Chaldeans, and Maronites while not moving toward celibacy seem to be okay with the status quo in the US.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 05:48:41 PM »

You must know different Maronites and Chaldeans than I do, Deacon Lance... Grin
Logged

Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 06:03:19 PM »

You must know different Maronites and Chaldeans than I do, Deacon Lance... Grin

I was refering to their seminaries and bishops accepting and ordaining married men.  Hopefuly, those you know will encourage their hierarchs to do so.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 06:05:06 PM »

DMD,

I see your "Why do the Popes keep appointing Latin-rite Italian cardinals to manage the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?" and raise you a "Why not abolish the Oriental Congregation altogether?" It is simply not needed.

I have no doubt that internal pressure within the Latin Church to get rid of mandatory celibacy is the driving reason behind the current situation for Eastern Catholic Churches. However, the Greek Catholics are the only ones pushing the issue. The Oriental Catholic Churches seem all to happy to have only celibates in the US. Indeed, the Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars have adopted mandatory celibacy, and the Copts, Ethiopians and Syriacs seem to favor it. The Armenians, Chaldeans, and Maronites while not moving toward celibacy seem to be okay with the status quo in the US.


It has been observed that the Congregation has been analogized to the American government's Bureau of Indian Affairs.....and I think it is a fair observation on my part that the efforts of both the Congregation and the Bureau on behalf of their respective 'constituencies' have been equally 'well-received' by their 'beneficiaries' over the years!
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2012, 06:06:26 PM »

Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding you, Deacon. Yes, I would think they do, given what some of them have said about clerical celibacy.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 06:49:36 PM »

DMD,

I see your "Why do the Popes keep appointing Latin-rite Italian cardinals to manage the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?" and raise you a "Why not abolish the Oriental Congregation altogether?" It is simply not needed.

I have no doubt that internal pressure within the Latin Church to get rid of mandatory celibacy is the driving reason behind the current situation for Eastern Catholic Churches. However, the Greek Catholics are the only ones pushing the issue. The Oriental Catholic Churches seem all to happy to have only celibates in the US. Indeed, the Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars have adopted mandatory celibacy, and the Copts, Ethiopians and Syriacs seem to favor it. The Armenians, Chaldeans, and Maronites while not moving toward celibacy seem to be okay with the status quo in the US.

I seem to recall a few years back that the Maronites wanted to revive their married clergy.  Only one of their bishops voted for celibacy.   The Vatican, however, required absolute unanimity.  I also recall the Coptic Pope, er, Patriarch under the Vatican touring the US and advocating for married clergy just in the past year.

And even if it were just the "Greek Catholics." So what? they don't count?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 07:03:15 PM »

I seem to recall a few years back that the Maronites wanted to revive their married clergy.  Only one of their bishops voted for celibacy.   The Vatican, however, required absolute unanimity.  I also recall the Coptic Pope, er, Patriarch under the Vatican touring the US and advocating for married clergy just in the past year.

And even if it were just the "Greek Catholics." So what? they don't count?

I was aware of the Maronites and I think it was kind of a copout.  "We tried."  I was unaware of the Coptic Patriarch.  And yes we count but it would be better, in my opinion, if we were all on the same page.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,255


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 07:25:37 PM »

While acknowledging DMD's valid criticism and how bad such statements look to the Orthodox I wouldn't put too much stock into this statement. Italian Cardinals keep pretending the ban is enforce and admonsihing us about it, canonists keep reminding them it was not renewed so it lost the force of law, and Greek Catholic bishops quitely keep ordaining married men, and the past two non-Italian Popes say and do nothing to stop it.
Good to know. I hope Eastern Catholics continue to be Eastern in spite of ignorant Latin heirarches. Italian Cardinals have NO BUSINESS telling your Churches what to do.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:26:26 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 07:37:40 PM »

I was aware of the Maronites and I think it was kind of a copout.  "We tried."  I was unaware of the Coptic Patriarch.  And yes we count but it would be better, in my opinion, if we were all on the same page.

A copout on whose part? The Maronites'? How can it be a copout when it is Rome that required absolute unanimity?
Logged

Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 07:47:34 PM »

I was aware of the Maronites and I think it was kind of a copout.  "We tried."  I was unaware of the Coptic Patriarch.  And yes we count but it would be better, in my opinion, if we were all on the same page.

A copout on whose part? The Maronites'? How can it be a copout when it is Rome that required absolute unanimity?

Both, because if the Maronites just said they were going to do it anyway Rome wouldn't have done anything.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 08:12:11 PM »

How do you know that?
Logged

Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 08:23:06 PM »

Because that is what is going on now with those Eastern Catholic Churches in the US who do ordain married men or bring married priests in from the old country.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,418


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 01:27:06 AM »

Tactics which smell of bait and switch make any institution appear duplicitous and immoral; all the more a religious institution.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 01:28:15 AM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2012, 07:24:37 AM »

"great" more adulterous and pedophile priests coming :|

^^ Trolling.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2012, 07:25:39 AM »

I wonder how the many married priests in the BCC and the UGCC who have, in recent years, come here from Europe feel upon reading this news?
Not to mention the Anglicans running to Rome due to recent events. What's down the road for them?

Oh there's not much mystery there: it's clear that the allowance of married priests for the Ordinariates is restricted to ex-Anglican ministers. Children born into the Ordinariates have virtually 0 possibility of growing up to be married Catholics priests.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2012, 10:04:48 AM »

Because that is what is going on now with those Eastern Catholic Churches in the US who do ordain married men or bring married priests in from the old country.

But what is to stop the Congregation from ordering the return of priests ordained by eparchs in Europe to their original jurisdiction?

I personally know a number of such priests doing good work here in the states. They are either married to Americans or Canadians or the priests are American or Canadian with a Slovak or Ukrainain wife. Frankly, they will be left holding the bag like their predecessors were after challenging Rome in the 1930's. Nothing like confusing the faithful as married clergy are finally working their way into the BCC over the past five years or so and then getting a statement like this reinforcing the notion of second class Catholic status. What is really different from Archbishop Ireland's or Bishop Takach's time?

This is causing quite the stir within the EC community, particularly in the UGCC in the USA and Canada.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2012, 10:06:12 AM »

Because that is what is going on now with those Eastern Catholic Churches in the US who do ordain married men or bring married priests in from the old country.

And after Ea Semper the European bishops continued send married clergy to the states and Cum Data Fuerit ingnited the flames twenty years later. What would stop Rome now from reiterating its same old story and behavior?
Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:40 AM »

Are we really surprised?

Yes. Quite a few of us thought we were moving in the opposite direction.


Based upon the information that I've gotten during discussions with some Roman Catholics, I'd thought this had been done previously.

Put me in the "Not Surprised" bin, if you would be so kind.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 10:59:15 AM »

Because that is what is going on now with those Eastern Catholic Churches in the US who do ordain married men or bring married priests in from the old country.

But what is to stop the Congregation from ordering the return of priests ordained by eparchs in Europe to their original jurisdiction?

I personally know a number of such priests doing good work here in the states. They are either married to Americans or Canadians or the priests are American or Canadian with a Slovak or Ukrainain wife. Frankly, they will be left holding the bag like their predecessors were after challenging Rome in the 1930's. Nothing like confusing the faithful as married clergy are finally working their way into the BCC over the past five years or so and then getting a statement like this reinforcing the notion of second class Catholic status.

Sad

Or third class, in the case of the Ordinariates.  Sad  Sad
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »

This does make me think of a question:

The Eastern Catholics, to my limited understanding, agreed to be in communion with Rome if Rome, for lack of a better term, "butted out" of their tradition. My question is, how much meddling would be too much meddling?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 11:35:07 AM »

DMD,

I see your "Why do the Popes keep appointing Latin-rite Italian cardinals to manage the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?" and raise you a "Why not abolish the Oriental Congregation altogether?" It is simply not needed.

I have no doubt that internal pressure within the Latin Church to get rid of mandatory celibacy is the driving reason behind the current situation for Eastern Catholic Churches. However, the Greek Catholics are the only ones pushing the issue. The Oriental Catholic Churches seem all to happy to have only celibates in the US. Indeed, the Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars have adopted mandatory celibacy, and the Copts, Ethiopians and Syriacs seem to favor it. The Armenians, Chaldeans, and Maronites while not moving toward celibacy seem to be okay with the status quo in the US.

I seem to recall a few years back that the Maronites wanted to revive their married clergy.  Only one of their bishops voted for celibacy.   The Vatican, however, required absolute unanimity.

That's definitely odd.

Here's something else I found that's curious:

Quote
Celibacy is not strictly required for Maronite deacons and priests outside of North America with parishes
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Church

Now, the wording is strange for a number of reasons (Why does it say "not strictly required" rather than "not required"? Also, are there no married Maronite deacons in North America?) but most importantly, does this imply that celibacy is not (strictly) required for Maronite priests in e.g. South America? (A lot of Maronites live in South America.)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 11:36:01 AM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 12:20:37 PM »

This does make me think of a question:

The Eastern Catholics, to my limited understanding, agreed to be in communion with Rome if Rome, for lack of a better term, "butted out" of their tradition. My question is, how much meddling would be too much meddling?

PP

Well, at the turn of the 20th century there was too much 'butting in' in the US and the faction led by St. Alexis returned to Orthodoxy becoming the founders of what is now the OCA. In Europe at the same time there were return to Orthodoxy movements which were resisted by the Hungarians and the Poles leading to the martrydom of St. Maxim Sandovich and in the 1930's more 'butting in' led to another faction leaving for Orthodoxy which became the ACROD in the USA.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »

What is interesting to me is the notion that America is somehow unique regarding the impact of a very small number of married Eastern Catholic clergy served a tiny slice of Eastern Catholics in a land with a vast majority of Catholics are Latin-rite and used to celibacy. Why would the same restrictions not be applied say to the Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia - a country where they are a distinct minority among all Catholics and, outside of the eastern provinces of Slovakia, Greek Catholics are probably little more known among the local Latin Catholics than here. Or in the Czech republic, where Easter Catholics rarely lived prior to the end of the war or the fall of the Iron Curtain. I have a married Greek Catholic relative who is a priest  with a young family in the western Czech republic. Why is this not a 'scandal' to the local Latin-rite folks? 

Seems to me that the American Latin Bishops may be afraid of their own congregations and how they can explain this to them in our hyper-charged media culture in the USA?
Logged
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2012, 01:56:47 PM »

Rome never learns.... I bet none of them anymore even know ACROD used to be their folks and left because of this crap.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2012, 02:35:10 PM »

Rome never learns.... I bet none of them anymore even know ACROD used to be their folks and left because of this crap.

We are all small in number, from the descendants of the faithful led by St. Alexis or Bishop Orestes,to people leaving the Eastern churches today. I suspect that outside of the UGCC in Ukraine itself, the Eastern churches aren't really on Rome's radar. That's too bad, because the treatment of the easterners is followed intently by the Orthodox and certainly appears to be a weather vane, if you will, of what Rome really is thinking.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2012, 02:36:10 PM »

Rome never learns.... I bet none of them anymore even know ACROD used to be their folks and left because of this crap.

Actually, out of those of us who know about ACROD, I'd bet a fair percentage do know its origins.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:36:58 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »

the treatment of the easterners is followed intently by the Orthodox

As well you should. And, for that matter, I should probably pay more attention to how Orthodox treat WROs than I do. Maybe that'll be my lenten resolution next year.  angel
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2012, 02:44:26 PM »

Rome never learns.... I bet none of them anymore even know ACROD used to be their folks and left because of this crap.

Actually, out of those of us who know about ACROD, I'd bet a fair percentage do know its origins.

How many people that know about ACROD are anything but lay people though? Whenever I've had the chance to talk to Catholic priests and religious their knowledge of just plain, basic Catholicism always leaves me wondering what they actually do with their time. I don't think knowledge of ACROD or any Eastern Catholics is common.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:46:33 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2012, 02:54:45 PM »

Yeah, in my time in the RC it seemed like only a tiny minority of its priests knew anything about the Eastern churches. Some didn't seem to even know that they exist. It's pretty sad, honestly, but on the other hand it is explainable as so little attention is ever focused on them outside of the tokenism necessary to bolster Rome's claims of "Catholicity". Sorry, Peter J...I'm sure there's a nicer way to put that, but I am just recalling watching EWTN and how they would say during coverage of the Pope's address that the Eastern churches are the "jewels of the crown" of the Church or some such...yet only play at best maybe one program on the East per month or two, and it would be at 3 AM, and it would generally be the SAME PROGRAM...the "Light from the East" or whatever its called, with the Ukrainian guy talking about icons. Oh, and once I saw a documentary on Christianity in Iraq that was pretty good...and also on at about 1 AM and only played once...ditto a 20 minute segment on the Maronites that portrayed them pretty pitifully...I was glad that they only showed that one once...

I don't know. I hear more about the Coptic Church in Fiji through our monthly diocesan news bulletins than I ever did about non-Roman churches in my half-decade in the RC. All that I learned about them was self-sought, except for my old FOC, a Dominican priest who I must thank for introducing me to the Syriac fathers (who he learned about through going through seminary with a Chaldean priest, Fr. Bazzi of St. Peter's in San Diego). This was probably not the end he was hoping for, but still...
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2012, 03:03:28 PM »

Yeah, in my time in the RC it seemed like only a tiny minority of its priests knew anything about the Eastern churches. Some didn't seem to even know that they exist. It's pretty sad, honestly, but on the other hand it is explainable as so little attention is ever focused on them outside of the tokenism necessary to bolster Rome's claims of "Catholicity". Sorry, Peter J...I'm sure there's a nicer way to put that, but I am just recalling watching EWTN and how they would say during coverage of the Pope's address that the Eastern churches are the "jewels of the crown" of the Church or some such...yet only play at best maybe one program on the East per month or two, and it would be at 3 AM, and it would generally be the SAME PROGRAM...the "Light from the East" or whatever its called, with the Ukrainian guy talking about icons.

:laughing:

Wow.  Embarrassed
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2012, 03:05:40 PM »

Yeah, that phrase in particular stuck in my mind, though I cannot remember the exact circumstances in which it was said. Anyway, quite appropriate for this thread, as it was said, and yet the actions surrounding it prove that it was not followed at all. It makes you wonder what they really believe. Sad
Logged

Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2012, 03:14:11 PM »

....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 04:30:18 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2012, 03:16:08 PM »

Yeah, that phrase in particular stuck in my mind, though I cannot remember the exact circumstances in which it was said.

I have a feeling there's a Michael Scott quote that would be appropriate to put here, but I can't think of one at the moment ...
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2012, 03:33:18 PM »

While acknowledging DMD's valid criticism and how bad such statements look to the Orthodox I wouldn't put too much stock into this statement. Italian Cardinals keep pretending the ban is enforce and admonsihing us about it, canonists keep reminding them it was not renewed so it lost the force of law, and Greek Catholic bishops quitely keep ordaining married men, and the past two non-Italian Popes say and do nothing to stop it.

May I remind you, Deacon Lance, that until the late 1990's (or even later?) it was simply not permitted for North American-based bishops to ordain married priests?  I have mentioned before how the issue was circumvented by Ukrainian jurisdictions who loaned married deacons to dioceses in Ukraine where the local ruling bishop then quietly ordained them to the priesthood.  If you doubt my word, please refer to the Eastern Catholic scholarly journal Logos which has featured at least one or two articles on the subject.

It is a fact that the interdiction against ordaining married Eastern-rite men to the priesthood in North America has never been revoked.  Since the turn of the millennium the emissaries of the Vatican responsible for such things has agreed to turn a blind eye to such ordinations.  This article could possibly indicate a change in this policy.
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2012, 05:51:39 PM »

May I remind you, Deacon Lance, that until the late 1990's (or even later?) it was simply not permitted for North American-based bishops to ordain married priests?  I have mentioned before how the issue was circumvented by Ukrainian jurisdictions who loaned married deacons to dioceses in Ukraine where the local ruling bishop then quietly ordained them to the priesthood.  If you doubt my word, please refer to the Eastern Catholic scholarly journal Logos which has featured at least one or two articles on the subject.

It is a fact that the interdiction against ordaining married Eastern-rite men to the priesthood in North America has never been revoked.  Since the turn of the millennium the emissaries of the Vatican responsible for such things has agreed to turn a blind eye to such ordinations.  This article could possibly indicate a change in this policy.

The first ordinations in North America since 1929 were done in the late 1980's in Canada and there was a big stink initially but the priests continued to serve and nothing happened.  The Melkites ordained a married man in 1996 in th US.  The Ukrainians and Romanians in the US followed suit and my own Church finally did so in 2006.
 
In fact the prescriptions of Cum data fuerit were to be renewed ever ten years to remain in force.  They were renewed in 1940 and 1950 but not in 1960.  See page 23. 
http://archive.org/stream/CumDataFuerit1929/Cum_Data_Fuerit_1929#page/n11/mode/2up

Furthermore the CCEO, promulgated in 1990 abolished all previous laws.  So I am not sure what canonical grounds the Latin bishops are standing on when they pretend the ban is still enforce.  The only thing the article indicates is the hopes of clueless Latin hierarchs that our bishops will continue to make their lives easy.  Most realize they can no longer afford that.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »

....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  


In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?   

Celibacy in the RC is not about power, control, etc.,  it is simply a matter of economics.  The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   You know in another time and another place these homosexuals with their limited male sex drive, and which seem to abound in our society,  would have been influenced into entering the priesthood and thereby leading a more virtuous Christian life.  But they're not, so what do we get now in our topsy turvy world?  The virtues of monasticism being condemned and sinful lifestyles being lauded.  Sad
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2012, 07:07:28 PM »

May I remind you, Deacon Lance, that until the late 1990's (or even later?) it was simply not permitted for North American-based bishops to ordain married priests?  I have mentioned before how the issue was circumvented by Ukrainian jurisdictions who loaned married deacons to dioceses in Ukraine where the local ruling bishop then quietly ordained them to the priesthood.  If you doubt my word, please refer to the Eastern Catholic scholarly journal Logos which has featured at least one or two articles on the subject.

It is a fact that the interdiction against ordaining married Eastern-rite men to the priesthood in North America has never been revoked.  Since the turn of the millennium the emissaries of the Vatican responsible for such things has agreed to turn a blind eye to such ordinations.  This article could possibly indicate a change in this policy.

The first ordinations in North America since 1929 were done in the late 1980's in Canada and there was a big stink initially but the priests continued to serve and nothing happened.  The Melkites ordained a married man in 1996 in th US.  The Ukrainians and Romanians in the US followed suit and my own Church finally did so in 2006.
 
In fact the prescriptions of Cum data fuerit were to be renewed ever ten years to remain in force.  They were renewed in 1940 and 1950 but not in 1960.  See page 23. 
http://archive.org/stream/CumDataFuerit1929/Cum_Data_Fuerit_1929#page/n11/mode/2up

Furthermore the CCEO, promulgated in 1990 abolished all previous laws.  So I am not sure what canonical grounds the Latin bishops are standing on when they pretend the ban is still enforce.  The only thing the article indicates is the hopes of clueless Latin hierarchs that our bishops will continue to make their lives easy.  Most realize they can no longer afford that.

The same failure to promulgate the "particular law" which would let the Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientarium go into effect on this matter.  The Vatican's bishops for the Middle East brought this up last year.  So far, AFAIK, silence.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2012, 07:12:15 PM »

....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  


In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?    

Celibacy in the RC is not about power, control, etc.,  it is simply a matter of economics.  The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   You know in another time and another place these homosexuals with their limited male sex drive, and which seem to abound in our society,  would have been influenced into entering the priesthood and thereby leading a more virtuous Christian life.  But they're not, so what do we get now in our topsy turvy world?  The virtues of monasticism being condemned and sinful lifestyles being lauded.  Sad

Really? That's a broad brush to paint the RC priesthood with and in my opinion, quite unfair. Frankly, we live in a more secular world and many of the men and women who are RC who would, in an earlier period of time, have become 'religious' ( i.e. Brothers, Sisters and clergy) won't accept the 'discipline' of celibacy and they have gone into other fields, such as social work, teaching etc....
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:15:48 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2012, 08:16:03 PM »

The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   

Now this is something I would really love to hear an explanation for.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2012, 10:00:44 PM »



Quote
In your view then, 'monasticism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?    

Celibacy in the RC is not about power, control, etc.,  it is simply a matter of economics.  The Catholic Church cannot afford married priests period.   You know in another time and another place these homosexuals with their limited male sex drive, and which seem to abound in our society,  would have been influenced into entering the priesthood and thereby leading a more virtuous Christian life.  But they're not, so what do we get now in our topsy turvy world?  The virtues of monasticism being condemned and sinful lifestyles being lauded.  Sad

Really? That's a broad brush to paint the RC priesthood with and in my opinion, quite unfair. Frankly, we live in a more secular world and many of the men and women who are RC who would, in an earlier period of time, have become 'religious' ( i.e. Brothers, Sisters and clergy) won't accept the 'discipline' of celibacy and they have gone into other fields, such as social work, teaching etc....

 If you say celibacy is a discipline, then are you saying our saints merely acquired a discipline and that they weren't given the gift of celibacy from God?  Frankly I don't believe this is Orthodox  theology.  I can  understand  someone saying they lack the sufficient 'Grace' necessary to be celibate, but to say it is not a higher state of  'Grace', would be going against the very basis of Orthodox, since we are a monastic faith..and even more so than the Latin Church.     

Anyway the RCC does have monastic 'Orders' that covers social work as well as organizations in which married people can contribute to the Church if they so desire.  Necessity demands that the RC priests must be monastic and therefore celibate.  As I said, they cannot afford married priests.  If they did, then they would probably have to dissolve their charitable institutions, and that is  something I don't think the RCC would want to do. 

 In the Orthodox Church,  the late Grand Duchess Sergius Alexandrovitch Romonov, who is now Saint Elizabeth, was given permission to start the Saints Martha and Mary Convent in Moscow after the death of her husband.  The Convent was modelled after the Western fashion, and was dedicated to helping the poor in Moscow.  She and her sister, the late Tsarina Alexandra, were both raised to be nurses by their grandmother Queen Victoria, and the worse cases were brought to Saint Elizabeth before her martyrdom  by the Bolsheviks.

I just thought I'd throw that in....  Tongue
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2012, 10:11:36 AM »

....What is it about Rome that makes it talk out of both sides of its mouth regarding such disciplines? Either you have your "two lungs" or you don't....

It's really quite simple, though Rome will never admit it.  It is a question of power and control.  Celibate priests can be (and are) moved around at will by bishops.  Think of it:  if Rome had lots of married clergy, they would have to consider disruptions to family and married life before moving clergy around.  Moreover, having married clergy would really disrupt the whole "men's club" structure that now exists in the Roman hierarchy.  Imagine women having a direct effect on the opinions and actions of clergy and of clerics having to adapt to the idea of having women "hanging around" in areas that were hitherto the exclusive domain of a celibate male elite.  

Above all else, Rome wants current power structures to remain as they are.  The more married Eastern clergy are seen to be existing in North American parishes, the more worried the Roman hierarchy is that they will be called out for their hypocrisy on not permitting married Latin rite clergy, and the more threatened they will feel about the existence of a parallel hierarchy in communion with Rome but not following Roman discipline.

And Rome is fully aware that that is all that clerical celibacy is: a discipline.  They know that it is not a point of doctrine at all.  And yet, from time to time, one notices this or that cardinal or prelate extolling the virtues of clerical celibacy, lauding it as a "precious gift from the Lord to His Church" or some such pseudo-pious rubbish.  


In your view then, 'monastism' is not a gift from God but  merely a discipline?  Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?
You do realize that the subject of discussion here is clerical celibacy, not mere celibacy per se? No one said anything about monasticism.
Logged
Curious Joe
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine-Ruthenian
Posts: 3



« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2012, 07:08:13 AM »

This is causing quite the stir within the EC community, particularly in the UGCC in the USA and Canada.

It would be nice if the hierarchs of Eastern Europe came out and spoke against this, particularly His Beatitude Sviatoslav.

I think it is critical that the Churches of Eastern Europe, those who came into communion via Brest or Uzhhorod, stick together irrespective of whether they are formally bound together (as in the case of the the UGCC) or not (as is the case with the Ruthenian Churches). When this happens, in solidarity with the other Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, finality may finally be forced on this and other unfortunate subjects in the history of the Eastern Catholic experience.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2012, 09:28:00 AM »

This is causing quite the stir within the EC community, particularly in the UGCC in the USA and Canada.

It would be nice if the hierarchs of Eastern Europe came out and spoke against this, particularly His Beatitude Sviatoslav.
That certainly would be a test of his insistance on his ecclesiastical community being a world wide church, which I expect to cross the Vatican sometime soon. 
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2012, 08:31:46 AM »

To get back to the focus of the OP.....Has there been any additional news about the original statement from Rome which precipitated this derailment?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:32:03 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2012, 08:35:55 PM »

Signaling a possible shift in policy, Catholic News Service today reported the comments of the head of the papal office overseeing US Eastern Catholic Bishops that new vocations to the priesthood in US Eastern Catholic Churches should be “embracing celibacy” because “mandatory celibacy is the general rule for priests” in the US. For the past several years, Eastern Catholic Bishops in the US have had the option of requesting dispensations from the celibacy rule from Rome to allow for the ordination of married men to the priesthood. While it is not yet known if this signifies a change in policy on the issue, this is the first time in decades for a Vatican official to publicly encourage celibacy for Eastern Catholic clergy. It also contrasts with recent allowances of some ordinations of married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite among clergy converts from Protestant churches.

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/rome-to-us-eastern-catholics-new-priests-should-embrace-celibacy/

All this represents is a the personal opinion of a Cardinal in Rome.  Who knows why he said it.  I can think of half a dozen reasons, including the possibility that some Roman rite bishops in the US asked him to...

So what...nothing else has changed.

BTW  I think Zenovia is a bright bold soul.... Wink
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:36:55 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2012, 08:47:23 PM »

Signaling a possible shift in policy, Catholic News Service today reported the comments of the head of the papal office overseeing US Eastern Catholic Bishops that new vocations to the priesthood in US Eastern Catholic Churches should be “embracing celibacy” because “mandatory celibacy is the general rule for priests” in the US. For the past several years, Eastern Catholic Bishops in the US have had the option of requesting dispensations from the celibacy rule from Rome to allow for the ordination of married men to the priesthood. While it is not yet known if this signifies a change in policy on the issue, this is the first time in decades for a Vatican official to publicly encourage celibacy for Eastern Catholic clergy. It also contrasts with recent allowances of some ordinations of married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite among clergy converts from Protestant churches.

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/rome-to-us-eastern-catholics-new-priests-should-embrace-celibacy/

All this represents is a the personal opinion of a Cardinal in Rome.  Who knows why he said it.  I can think of half a dozen reasons, including the possibility that some Roman rite bishops in the US asked him to...

So what...nothing else has changed.
you're right.  That particular law the Easterners who have submitted to the Vatican has not been promulgated.

But the silence on it on the Latin, i.e. Vatican,'s side has been broken.

BTW  I think Zenovia is a bright bold soul.... Wink
The blessings of....
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2012, 09:01:01 PM »

But what is to stop the Congregation from ordering the return of priests ordained by eparchs in Europe to their original jurisdiction?

Nothing I suppose.  But what is going to make the bishops obey?  And there is always citizenship.  Some become American citizens and give up their old citizenship.  A cardinal tried this one already in Poland except th married priest were born in and citizens of Poland  not Ukraine.  The curia issues orders hoping they will comply knowing they really can't force them to do anything.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2012, 09:39:31 PM »

But what is to stop the Congregation from ordering the return of priests ordained by eparchs in Europe to their original jurisdiction?

Nothing I suppose.  But what is going to make the bishops obey?  
Abp. Hefele learned the lesson of renewal of "faculties" the hard way.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:39:47 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2012, 07:00:02 AM »

Do anything think we should have a separate thread for one or the other of these 2 conversations?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2012, 11:04:04 AM »

Do anything think we should have a separate thread for one or the other of these 2 conversations?

I do!
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2012, 09:12:48 PM »

(deleted -- decided to take my own advice and start a different thread, now that the original discussing is totally buried)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44881.new.html
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 09:43:25 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2012, 09:44:11 PM »

(deleted -- decided to take my own advice and start a different thread, now that the original discussion is totally buried)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44881.new.html
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 09:45:33 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2012, 10:44:06 PM »

The tangent started in response to Zenovia's assertion quoted below has been moved to Religious Topics.

Where then does that leave the saints, since sanctity cannot be achieved without celibacy?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=44882.0
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 10:48:54 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2012, 08:09:51 AM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,652


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2012, 08:26:45 AM »

Has anyone else here caught the oxymoron in the phrase "embrace celibacy"? laugh
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2012, 08:41:52 AM »

Has anyone else here caught the oxymoron in the phrase "embrace celibacy"? laugh

Cute.  laugh laugh
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2012, 08:42:24 AM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?
No.  The sheep who wandered astray might flock back like those who followed the Shepherd St. Alexis, embrace Orthodoxy and re-inter the Catholic Church.  How the Vatican takes that doesn't matter.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2012, 10:36:50 AM »

I gotta say, that if I were an EC this would really make me wonder about the promises of Rome. Of course, this isn't a demand, but it can very easily become one.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2012, 01:08:16 PM »

I gotta say, that if I were an EC this would really make me wonder about the promises of Rome. Of course, this isn't a demand, but it can very easily become one.

PP


While we Orthodox frequently complain about the Eastern Catholic churches in our midst (such as Metropolitan Hilarion's recent comments discussed earlier this year), the reality is that Orthodox leaders who are at least open-minded regarding dialogue with the Church of Rome (as well as those of us who profess more suspicion) tend to view the Eastern Churches as a 'canary' in the Roman mine shaft. These recent developments were received either with sadness or "I told you so" depending on your stand as they indicate a lack of 'oxygen' in Rome's view of the east.  This should make EC's fret about their future. As we say, the door is always open here!
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2012, 01:58:19 PM »

I gotta say, that if I were an EC this would really make me wonder about the promises of Rome. Of course, this isn't a demand, but it can very easily become one.

PP


While we Orthodox frequently complain about the Eastern Catholic churches in our midst (such as Metropolitan Hilarion's recent comments discussed earlier this year), the reality is that Orthodox leaders who are at least open-minded regarding dialogue with the Church of Rome (as well as those of us who profess more suspicion) tend to view the Eastern Churches as a 'canary' in the Roman mine shaft. These recent developments were received either with sadness or "I told you so" depending on your stand as they indicate a lack of 'oxygen' in Rome's view of the east.  This should make EC's fret about their future. As we say, the door is always open here!

I've been hearing Orthodox say this sort of thing for many years now; but just in the last couple years I've started to wonder if this isn't the first part of a bait-and-switch.  Sad
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2012, 02:07:24 PM »

What do you mean by that, Peter J?
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2012, 02:31:22 PM »

Quote
ve been hearing Orthodox say this sort of thing for many years now; but just in the last couple years I've started to wonder if this isn't the first part of a bait-and-switch
But Rome's "suggestion" IS a bait-and-switch....well, let me take that back. It COULD be a bait and switch depending if this suggestion gets forgotten, or Rome pushes this suggestion a bit further.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2012, 06:45:16 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2012, 08:45:15 PM »

Has anyone else here caught the oxymoron in the phrase "embrace celibacy"? laugh

LOL!! good one!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2012, 09:40:47 AM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 09:41:30 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2012, 10:16:18 AM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO,

I believe there are LCs who are quite anti-EC -- in fact I believe I have encountered that in my own life -- but I don't think that LCs in general are "more anti-EC than they are anti-EO".

which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

But let me ask you this: if (and I don't know how big of an if this is for you) you guys didn't have any suspicions that latinizations would be pushed on you, would you consider coming into communion with Rome?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2012, 11:30:42 AM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO,

I believe there are LCs who are quite anti-EC -- in fact I believe I have encountered that in my own life -- but I don't think that LCs in general are "more anti-EC than they are anti-EO".

which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

But let me ask you this: if (and I don't know how big of an if this is for you) you guys didn't have any suspicions that latinizations would be pushed on you, would you consider coming into communion with Rome?
we are in communion with Rome.


As for the Vatican, your scenario doesn't say anything about it giving up its heresies.

And yes, the Vatican's Latins include those who are much more "anti-EC" than anti-EO. One reason why many Orthodox point out that the "Eastern sui juris" are not the door to the Vatican, but the door mat.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,134


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2012, 11:32:07 AM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO,

I believe there are LCs who are quite anti-EC -- in fact I believe I have encountered that in my own life -- but I don't think that LCs in general are "more anti-EC than they are anti-EO".

which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

But let me ask you this: if (and I don't know how big of an if this is for you) you guys didn't have any suspicions that latinizations would be pushed on you, would you consider coming into communion with Rome?

dont we already have this??   Its called the Eastern Catholic church.
Logged
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2012, 12:03:05 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2012, 12:28:04 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2012, 12:30:08 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
define "Easternize."  Retaining the filioque, for instance, is out.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2012, 02:14:04 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
define "Easternize." 

Alright, that's a fair question. I guess I would use the WRO as an example of "delatinized/Easternized".
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2012, 02:26:31 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
define "Easternize." 

Alright, that's a fair question. I guess I would use the WRO as an example of "delatinized/Easternized".

Another necessary clarification - the question started in terms of a contrast to Rome's handling of it's sui juris Eastern-rite churches but now you seem to be asking about the individual level. And the answer is different if you are talking about an LC converting in a place where there are only Eastern-rite Orthodox churches versus an LC converting to a WRO parish (or a whole LC parish converting to the WRO) and both those would be radically different than a scenario comparable to that to of the Eastern-rite churches in the Roman communion (i.e., if the LC bishops of Canada decided as a synod to separate from Rome and join Orthodoxy and the other Orthodox Churches accepted them as a Latin-rite Autonomous or Autocephalous church).
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2012, 02:29:45 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
define "Easternize." 

Alright, that's a fair question. I guess I would use the WRO as an example of "delatinized/Easternized".
Well, not totally. As the WRO follow the pre schism latin traditions of the fast, certain worship styles (te deum laudamus, etc.) So "delatinized" would not be accurate...however what you'd call it is beyond me.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2012, 02:55:01 PM »

PP, I'm not trying to convince you that we Catholics have never done a bait and switch. In fact, I'm convinced that we have. Two wrongs don't make a right. But regardless, I don't think that EOs are so much pro-EC as anti-LC.

I'd give you that, but my experience in towns where all three are present is that LCs are even more anti-EC than they are anti-EO, which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

If Rome became Orthodox I'd be overjoyed to enter into communion with you, but it's the fact of Rome pushing latinization on the ECs and the attitudes of many LCs towards them that reinforces in me the feeling that what Rome wants of us is not for us to enter into communion on the basis of a shared faith but rather to 'bend the knee' (and I chose that phrase deliberately in the previous post) to the Vatican. In other words, I do not believe that Rome wants to genuinely heal the Schism, the goal still being domination rather than reconciliation and the fact of the treatment of ECs appears to continually prove this.

James

That isn't a very clear answer, but perhaps the best way to move forward in this conversation is if I were to put the same thing to you that you put to me. Namely, can you guarantee that any LC who become Orthodox don't have to delatinize (or should I say Easternize)?
define "Easternize." 

Alright, that's a fair question. I guess I would use the WRO as an example of "delatinized/Easternized".
The Church I went to used Latin and the Rite of St. Gregory, so you are still not making any sense.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2012, 03:18:57 PM »

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2012, 03:29:54 PM »

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)
I dont understand the term "Easternizations". The Western Rite Orthodox are 100% Orthodox in our belief, canons, and traditions. We even answer to the same bishops. The Eastern Catholics can not say that.

The East did not innovate anything, so I am confused as to what you're referring to.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2012, 03:32:06 PM »

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)

I'm no expert on the WRO but I would assume the answer is 'no'. My point is that WRO parishes, which are not jurisdictionally separate but under Eastern-rite bishops and synods, are not really comparable to the situation of the EC's where you are talking about the relationship between Eastern-Rite bishops and synods and their LC counterparts.

(That is, if an Eastern-rite bishop tells a WR priest under his omophorion to do this or that, it's an entirely separate thing from if an Eastern-rite bishop tells a Latin-rite bishop to do the same (or vice-versa), because the first situation is an explicit relationship of authority and obedience while the second is supposed to be some kind of relationship between equals).
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2012, 03:39:51 PM »

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)

I'm no expert on the WRO but I would assume the answer is 'no'. My point is that WRO parishes, which are not jurisdictionally separate but under Eastern-rite bishops and synods, are not really comparable to the situation of the EC's where you are talking about the relationship between Eastern-Rite bishops and synods and their LC counterparts.

(That is, if an Eastern-rite bishop tells a WR priest under his omophorion to do this or that, it's an entirely separate thing from if an Eastern-rite bishop tells a Latin-rite bishop to do the same (or vice-versa), because the first situation is an explicit relationship of authority and obedience while the second is supposed to be some kind of relationship between equals).
Thats really the difference. We are 100% as Orthodox as the Eastern Rites, and 100% as much a part of the same Church. We are all one body and the only real difference is liturgy. Everything else is basically the same with only minor differences, and those are majorly just from a pre-schism latin historical tradition.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2012, 04:13:54 PM »

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)
No, they don't.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2012, 04:24:32 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No,

Any ideas as to how we might convince ialmisry?

ialmisry, primuspilus, and witega,

Well let me put it this way: can you honestly say that each WRO parish doesn't have to embrace any Easternizations that it doesn't want to? (Excepting the filioque, which I won't count as an Easternizations for purpose of this discussion.)
No, they don't.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #103 on: May 25, 2012, 05:01:12 PM »

which has always left me with the distinct feeling that if we ever were to bow the knee to Rome we'd end up being forced into Latinizations before we'd ever be properly accepted.

James

But let me ask you this: if (and I don't know how big of an if this is for you) you guys didn't have any suspicions that latinizations would be pushed on you, would you consider coming into communion with Rome?

...
As for the Vatican, your scenario doesn't say anything about it giving up its heresies.

I take that as a No. Which is not at all unexpected.

I've very often heard Orthodox say things like: We won't enter into full communion with the Pope unless the latinization-problems are solved; (I don't have other examples of these kind of statements at my fingertips, except the one from jmbejdl, but I could probably find some of you doubt their existence); but the bottom line is that you guys really have no full-communion intentions regardless.

Kind of like me saying "I won't marry you unless ___________" to a woman that I actually have no interest in.

And yes, the Vatican's Latins include those who are much more "anti-EC" than anti-EO.

Yes I suppose there are such people. But given the sheer size of the LCC, it would be more surprising if such people did not exist.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
So you admit that we more fully preserve the Western Christian traditions than you guys do?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 06:51:01 PM by Wyatt » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2012, 07:15:01 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
So you admit that we more fully preserve the Western Christian traditions than you guys do?

Maybe he thinks that the only requirement for being Roman Catholic is SW (Sufficient Westernness).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2012, 07:22:19 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
So you admit that we more fully preserve the Western Christian traditions than you guys do?
I was just joking around.

I believe that the Western Rite Orthodox keeps the traditions of the pre-schism west in its fullest, and free from the innovations of Rome after they left the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Maybe he thinks that the only requirement for being Roman Catholic is SW (Sufficient Westernness).
I could say something that would start an argument, but I'll simply smile Smiley


PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2012, 07:57:59 PM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
So you admit that we more fully preserve the Western Christian traditions than you guys do?
I was just joking around.

I figured it was a joke -- not that I understood it.  Smiley Tongue

I believe that the Western Rite Orthodox keeps the traditions of the pre-schism west in its fullest, and free from the innovations of Rome after they left the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Maybe he thinks that the only requirement for being Roman Catholic is SW (Sufficient Westernness).
I could say something that would start an argument, but I'll simply smile Smiley


PP

If you were thinking about saying that the only requirement for being Eastern Orthodox is SE (Sufficient Easternness), then yes that probably would have started a fight.  Shocked
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #108 on: May 26, 2012, 07:50:14 AM »

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of Westernness!
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2012, 07:56:01 AM »

Thanks for those answers. I don't think I agree -- I don't think WROs are able to be completely Western -- but it's certainly possible that I'm wrong about that.
No, because then we'd be Roman Catholic  laugh laugh laugh laugh

PP
So you admit that we more fully preserve the Western Christian traditions than you guys do?

You appear to have misunderstood what I was saying. I guess I really wasn't very clear. The Latinizations are not, in my opinion, the problem but rather the symptoms of a larger problem with Rome's attitude to the ECs. By saying if Rome were Orthodox I meant in faith. Whether the practices are western or eastern is of no consequence. What is of very great consequence I feel, however, is that ECs have been lead to believe that they can keep their practices and still be in communion with Rome but the reality is that this has not happened and Latinizations are pushed on them. This shows me that Rome really does want to dominate, not reconcile with us in the east, that Rome cannot be trusted not to interfere with the internal affairs of non-Latin Rite churches (for all their claims to the contrary) so long as they adhere to the ecclesiology they do, and that for all the talk of 'two lungs' they really do appear to consider our faith as less worthy and in need of an injection of the Latin Rite. And this apparent disdain for the ECs is not, in my experience in any way confined to the clergy or the Vatican. I've seen the exact same thing amongst Latin Rite laiety-  the attitude of 'if they were really Catholic they'd join us' when talking of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church on the corner. It's observation of the behaviour of Rome, and of LCs, to the ECs that convinces me that we should be very wary indeed of any attempt at reconciliation with Rome and that the absolute number one prerequisite must be reform of Latin ecclesiology. Unfortunately, I can't see that ever happening.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2012, 09:05:45 AM »

Thanks for that clarification, jmbejdl. But to go back to the topic of ECs in the US, I think this sheds a lot of light on the discussion:

Quote from: Irish Melkite
It is not that Latin bishops in the US have any say in the affairs of the Eastern Churches (let alone "authority" as your post immediately above suggests). In fact, they don't, except in the instances where they have superintendency of parishes belonging to Churches without hierarchs in the US.

What they may have is influence.

But, you're pursuing an issue for which there is no basis whatsoever. Cardinal Sandri's comment stands, at this moment, on his shoulders and his alone. No one, neither any of our hierarchs, nor the Cardinal himself, has suggested that the US Latin bishops played any part in motivating his exhortation to our hierarchs - so, let's not try to raise hackles over an issue that we have no - not any - basis to suggest.

Unless and until someone with actual knowledge to support the idea offers information to the effect that the US Latin bishops or some subset of them fostered the Cardinal's concern, we will not be sponsoring or hosting conspiracy theories to that effect here. We have enough real issues with which to contend without creating shadow opponents and waging battle against them.

Many years,

Neil

(emphasis added)

Source.

Note that Latin bishops in the US don't have any say in the affairs of ECs, but may have influence.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2012, 11:08:39 AM »

Thanks for that clarification, jmbejdl. But to go back to the topic of ECs in the US, I think this sheds a lot of light on the discussion:

Quote from: Irish Melkite
It is not that Latin bishops in the US have any say in the affairs of the Eastern Churches (let alone "authority" as your post immediately above suggests). In fact, they don't, except in the instances where they have superintendency of parishes belonging to Churches without hierarchs in the US.

What they may have is influence.

But, you're pursuing an issue for which there is no basis whatsoever. Cardinal Sandri's comment stands, at this moment, on his shoulders and his alone. No one, neither any of our hierarchs, nor the Cardinal himself, has suggested that the US Latin bishops played any part in motivating his exhortation to our hierarchs - so, let's not try to raise hackles over an issue that we have no - not any - basis to suggest.

Unless and until someone with actual knowledge to support the idea offers information to the effect that the US Latin bishops or some subset of them fostered the Cardinal's concern, we will not be sponsoring or hosting conspiracy theories to that effect here. We have enough real issues with which to contend without creating shadow opponents and waging battle against them.

Many years,

Neil

(emphasis added)

Source.

Note that Latin bishops in the US don't have any say in the affairs of ECs, but may have influence.
maybe not de jure, but de facto
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2012, 11:15:22 AM »

Thanks for that clarification, jmbejdl. But to go back to the topic of ECs in the US, I think this sheds a lot of light on the discussion:

Quote from: Irish Melkite
It is not that Latin bishops in the US have any say in the affairs of the Eastern Churches (let alone "authority" as your post immediately above suggests). In fact, they don't, except in the instances where they have superintendency of parishes belonging to Churches without hierarchs in the US.

What they may have is influence.

But, you're pursuing an issue for which there is no basis whatsoever. Cardinal Sandri's comment stands, at this moment, on his shoulders and his alone. No one, neither any of our hierarchs, nor the Cardinal himself, has suggested that the US Latin bishops played any part in motivating his exhortation to our hierarchs - so, let's not try to raise hackles over an issue that we have no - not any - basis to suggest.

Unless and until someone with actual knowledge to support the idea offers information to the effect that the US Latin bishops or some subset of them fostered the Cardinal's concern, we will not be sponsoring or hosting conspiracy theories to that effect here. We have enough real issues with which to contend without creating shadow opponents and waging battle against them.

Many years,

Neil

(emphasis added)

Source.

Note that Latin bishops in the US don't have any say in the affairs of ECs, but may have influence.
maybe not de jure, but de facto

Hey, you're welcome to tell him that. I don't think I'll be doing so -- contrary to what some people might think about me, I do "know what's good for me" as it were.  Cool
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2012, 10:42:50 AM »

I suspect that this entire argument is rather pointless. IF unity were ever at the cusp of occurring, there would be many in both the western churches and the eastern churches who would never be satisfied with what the 'others' would have to do to be 'fully' part of the same church. It would appear that what would be ritualistically acceptable to say, bishops and scholars, would likely not be acceptable to a large percentage of the bodies of the current west and the current east. Perhaps our scholars should try to recreated actual ritual practice of say, 890 AD and impose the same on both the current east and the current west. Just kidding, but that thought points out the real world problems that this question poses.

Here is a novel hypothetical thought - if Rome were to offer a full 'release' of clergy, property and faithful to any Greek Catholic congregation or diocese for that matter which chooses to join the Orthodox Church with the 'flip' side of the offer being that those easterners who choose to remain loyal to Rome must submit to certain things - like acceptance of the universal, superior jurisdiction of the Pope in all matters of administration, acceptance of mandatory celibacy being one of them and submission of all Eastern or Western  Catholics to the proper Ordinary bishop of a geographical area (as we do with the WRO) - that would create an interesting change to the current dynamic. However, that 'ain't' gonna happen any time soon..... And I would think that the 'takers' of such an 'offer' would be far fewer in number than many Orthodox would imagine.

Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2012, 10:49:52 AM »

Quote
Here is a novel hypothetical thought - if Rome were to offer a full 'release' of clergy, property and faithful to any Greek Catholic congregation or diocese for that matter which chooses to join the Orthodox Church with the 'flip' side of the offer being that those easterners who choose to remain loyal to Rome must submit to certain things - like acceptance of the universal, superior jurisdiction of the Pope in all matters of administration, acceptance of mandatory celibacy being one of them and submission of all Eastern or Western  Catholics to the proper Ordinary bishop of a geographical area (as we do with the WRO) - that would create an interesting change to the current dynamic. However, that 'ain't' gonna happen any time soon..... And I would think that the 'takers' of such an 'offer' would be far fewer in number than many Orthodox would imagine

See, I think the opposite. I think there would be a flood of folks joining Orthodoxy because it would be an "either you leave or become Latin" mentality that would upset alot of folks. Especially after all the promises of Rome to let the EC's have their traditions.

I also dont think it'll happen, but if it did, the Eastern Catholic landscape would look more like a ghost town.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #115 on: May 29, 2012, 11:38:48 AM »

Quote
Here is a novel hypothetical thought - if Rome were to offer a full 'release' of clergy, property and faithful to any Greek Catholic congregation or diocese for that matter which chooses to join the Orthodox Church with the 'flip' side of the offer being that those easterners who choose to remain loyal to Rome must submit to certain things - like acceptance of the universal, superior jurisdiction of the Pope in all matters of administration, acceptance of mandatory celibacy being one of them and submission of all Eastern or Western  Catholics to the proper Ordinary bishop of a geographical area (as we do with the WRO) - that would create an interesting change to the current dynamic. However, that 'ain't' gonna happen any time soon..... And I would think that the 'takers' of such an 'offer' would be far fewer in number than many Orthodox would imagine

See, I think the opposite. I think there would be a flood of folks joining Orthodoxy because it would be an "either you leave or become Latin" mentality that would upset alot of folks.

That's an understatement. It's hard to even imagine the Pope doing something so objectionable.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #116 on: May 29, 2012, 11:41:20 AM »

Quote
Here is a novel hypothetical thought - if Rome were to offer a full 'release' of clergy, property and faithful to any Greek Catholic congregation or diocese for that matter which chooses to join the Orthodox Church with the 'flip' side of the offer being that those easterners who choose to remain loyal to Rome must submit to certain things - like acceptance of the universal, superior jurisdiction of the Pope in all matters of administration, acceptance of mandatory celibacy being one of them and submission of all Eastern or Western  Catholics to the proper Ordinary bishop of a geographical area (as we do with the WRO) - that would create an interesting change to the current dynamic. However, that 'ain't' gonna happen any time soon..... And I would think that the 'takers' of such an 'offer' would be far fewer in number than many Orthodox would imagine

See, I think the opposite. I think there would be a flood of folks joining Orthodoxy because it would be an "either you leave or become Latin" mentality that would upset alot of folks.

That's an understatement. It's hard to even imagine the Pope doing something so objectionable.
I agree. I dont think the Pope would do something like that.


PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2012, 04:55:31 PM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2012, 05:03:54 PM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2012, 06:04:14 PM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

Well of course.  How they come into the church is up to the priest and bishop.  I'm neither one of those so I don't get a say in what goes on in that department.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2012, 06:13:43 PM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

Are you asking whether they can remain Eastern Catholic but still receive communion?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2012, 06:22:19 PM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

Are you asking whether they can remain Eastern Catholic but still receive communion?

Everyone knows that answer "no."
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #122 on: June 06, 2012, 08:53:48 AM »

Quote
Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?
I know that during my chrismation, we had someone raised RC chrismated as well. It was the same chrismation that I had to go through. No different.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #123 on: June 06, 2012, 09:24:41 AM »

Quote
Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?
I know that during my chrismation, we had someone raised RC chrismated as well. It was the same chrismation that I had to go through. No different.

PP

Where I come from, RCs and BCs are chrismated when entering the Orthodox Church. No "reception by confession of heresies and errors" in my neck of the woods.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #124 on: June 06, 2012, 09:28:42 AM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #125 on: June 06, 2012, 10:03:09 AM »

When large numbers of faithful are received, such as in the two waves of the 20th century which led to the OCA and ACROD,
'economia' governed and the reception was 'blessed' and uneventful. Given the trauma which occurred within the Greek Catholic parishes those folks left, there would be little doubt that any of those faithful needed to publicly profess a rejection of Papalism.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #126 on: June 06, 2012, 10:09:34 AM »

So what I'm hearing is that if married EC priests aren't allowed in the US, that will severely harm Orthodox-Catholic relations. Is that accurate?

The passed few times the Vatican has tried to enforce celibacy on Greek Catholics it has resulted in them just parking their cars across the street on Sunday mornings at the Orthodox Church.  Also, church property issues, calender issues and new translated and botched liturgical texts make Greek Catholics "cross the parking lot" to the Orthodox Church.  I say "cross the parking lot" because there are many GC and Orthodox parishes that were built that close together. 

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

Are you asking whether they can remain Eastern Catholic but still receive communion?

Not really, although that certainly is one possible interpretation of my question.  I'm asking if when those who crossed the parking lot on any given Sunday morning stayed on the "other side" of the lot or if the next Sunday they went back from whence they came, receiving Holy Communion on both sides of the lot. 

We've had the discussion several times before of Catholics receiving Communion in Orthodox Churches (and vice-versa), and there are some who refuse to accept or are outraged that a) it happens, b) it's more common than admitted in certain areas of the U.S. and abroad, and c) when it happens it's done knowingly and with acceptance from priests and bishops of the dioceses involved.  It's not my intention to revisit that here, but username sort of opened the door by how he worded his comment.  I'm perfectly happy if no one wants to discuss this further here.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #127 on: June 06, 2012, 10:51:20 AM »

Not really, although that certainly is one possible interpretation of my question.  I'm asking if when those who crossed the parking lot on any given Sunday morning stayed on the "other side" of the lot or if the next Sunday they went back from whence they came, receiving Holy Communion on both sides of the lot. 

Thanks for that clarification, J Michael. I had thought of 2 possible interpretations of your question

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

and I wasn't sure which was correct. (Turns out, neither of them.)

Incidentally, I wonder about that too. Not only in terms of what the Orthodox think about it (not that there's much need for me to wonder Smiley since I've heard from them many times on the subject) but also from the Catholic p.o.v.: it never fails to amaze me when someone leaves Catholicism but still wants to receive communion in Catholic churches. :emoticon:
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #128 on: June 06, 2012, 11:24:55 AM »

Not really, although that certainly is one possible interpretation of my question.  I'm asking if when those who crossed the parking lot on any given Sunday morning stayed on the "other side" of the lot or if the next Sunday they went back from whence they came, receiving Holy Communion on both sides of the lot. 

Thanks for that clarification, J Michael. I had thought of 2 possible interpretations of your question

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

and I wasn't sure which was correct. (Turns out, neither of them.)

Incidentally, I wonder about that too. Not only in terms of what the Orthodox think about it (not that there's much need for me to wonder Smiley since I've heard from them many times on the subject) but also from the Catholic p.o.v.: it never fails to amaze me when someone leaves Catholicism but still wants to receive communion in Catholic churches. :emoticon:

I reckon that can only be answered on a case by case basis, no one answer necessarily applying to all.  I know there are some who, rightly or wrongly, see the Church as just that--THE Church, and that the schism between us (Catholic and Orthodox) is "sinful" and they refuse to participate in that sin to the extent they are able.  But, that's just one answer of potentially many.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #129 on: June 06, 2012, 11:31:12 AM »

Not really, although that certainly is one possible interpretation of my question.  I'm asking if when those who crossed the parking lot on any given Sunday morning stayed on the "other side" of the lot or if the next Sunday they went back from whence they came, receiving Holy Communion on both sides of the lot. 

Thanks for that clarification, J Michael. I had thought of 2 possible interpretations of your question

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

and I wasn't sure which was correct. (Turns out, neither of them.)

Incidentally, I wonder about that too. Not only in terms of what the Orthodox think about it (not that there's much need for me to wonder Smiley since I've heard from them many times on the subject) but also from the Catholic p.o.v.: it never fails to amaze me when someone leaves Catholicism but still wants to receive communion in Catholic churches. :emoticon:

I reckon that can only be answered on a case by case basis, no one answer necessarily applying to all.  I know there are some who, rightly or wrongly, see the Church as just that--THE Church, and that the schism between us (Catholic and Orthodox) is "sinful" and they refuse to participate in that sin to the extent they are able.  But, that's just one answer of potentially many.

but only one correct answer, the Orthodox answer.  They can go toddle off to their "THE Church" and leave THE Church to us.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2012, 12:19:55 PM »

Not really, although that certainly is one possible interpretation of my question.  I'm asking if when those who crossed the parking lot on any given Sunday morning stayed on the "other side" of the lot or if the next Sunday they went back from whence they came, receiving Holy Communion on both sides of the lot. 

Thanks for that clarification, J Michael. I had thought of 2 possible interpretations of your question


and I wasn't sure which was correct. (Turns out, neither of them.)


Care to share what they were?  Not looking for an argument or anything--I'm just curious.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2012, 12:36:06 PM »

Care to share what they were?  Not looking for an argument or anything--I'm just curious.

Sure, that's no problem. When you asked:

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

I thought either you were asking whether they can remain Eastern Catholic but still receive communion, or you were asking about the manner of reception (cf. Replies #119, 122, 123, 124, and 125).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2012, 12:42:19 PM »

Care to share what they were?  Not looking for an argument or anything--I'm just curious.

Sure, that's no problem. When you asked:

Once one "crosses the parking lot", is Holy Communion offered to and received by those who've crossed?  Or is confession required first, along with a renouncement of Roman "heresies"?

I thought either you were asking whether they can remain Eastern Catholic but still receive communion, or you were asking about the manner of reception (cf. Replies #119, 122, 123, 124, and 125).

Got it.  Thanks!  Smiley
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »

Got it.  Thanks!  Smiley

You're welcome.

Incidentally, I wonder about that too. Not only in terms of what the Orthodox think about it (not that there's much need for me to wonder Smiley since I've heard from them many times on the subject) but also from the Catholic p.o.v.: it never fails to amaze me when someone leaves Catholicism but still wants to receive communion in Catholic churches. :emoticon:

I reckon that can only be answered on a case by case basis, no one answer necessarily applying to all.  I know there are some who, rightly or wrongly, see the Church as just that--THE Church, and that the schism between us (Catholic and Orthodox) is "sinful" and they refuse to participate in that sin to the extent they are able.  But, that's just one answer of potentially many.

Still thinking about that one.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2012, 02:11:13 PM »

Got it.  Thanks!  Smiley

You're welcome.

Incidentally, I wonder about that too. Not only in terms of what the Orthodox think about it (not that there's much need for me to wonder Smiley since I've heard from them many times on the subject) but also from the Catholic p.o.v.: it never fails to amaze me when someone leaves Catholicism but still wants to receive communion in Catholic churches. :emoticon:

I reckon that can only be answered on a case by case basis, no one answer necessarily applying to all.  I know there are some who, rightly or wrongly, see the Church as just that--THE Church, and that the schism between us (Catholic and Orthodox) is "sinful" and they refuse to participate in that sin to the extent they are able.  But, that's just one answer of potentially many.

Still thinking about that one.

I suppose I should add that there are those amongst the people I mention above who actually *do* partake of Communion with the knowledge and assent of the presiding priest and bishop, and those who, even though they may *want* to, choose to abide by rules/regulations of their Church and do not partake.  I judge neither.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2012, 10:34:55 PM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church

It doesn't matter how I was received.  I flew to Athos and was baptised just to make sure because someone on the internet said you had to do so.

Ok, I was chrismated.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #136 on: June 06, 2012, 10:39:14 PM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church

It doesn't matter how I was received.  I flew to Athos and was baptised just to make sure because someone on the internet said you had to do so.

I really wouldn't say you have to, but it's definitely preferable over driving.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2012, 10:54:43 PM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church

It doesn't matter how I was received.  I flew to Athos and was baptised just to make sure because someone on the internet said you had to do so.

I really wouldn't say you have to, but it's definitely preferable over driving.

We drove there once and boy I'll never do it again.  Tolls are way too expensive.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2012, 11:10:38 PM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church

It doesn't matter how I was received.  I flew to Athos and was baptised just to make sure because someone on the internet said you had to do so.

I really wouldn't say you have to, but it's definitely preferable over driving.

We drove there once and boy I'll never do it again.  Tolls are way too expensive.

Huh ... I would have thought you'd come back with a "boy were my arms tired" line.

 Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 11:11:39 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #139 on: June 07, 2012, 10:16:43 AM »

As anecdotal evidence, I was chrismated (born RC, practicing EC for 10 years) when received into the Church

It doesn't matter how I was received.  I flew to Athos and was baptised just to make sure because someone on the internet said you had to do so.

I really wouldn't say you have to, but it's definitely preferable over driving.

We drove there once and boy I'll never do it again.  Tolls are way too expensive.

Geez, I can't imagine...Johnstown to Chicago was $80 round trip last month for the Turnpikes. Must be a lot on the trans-Atlantic expressway....
Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2012, 06:05:56 PM »

I recognize this topic has been active for a while, but there are two married deacons in my Eparchy who are going to be ordained next summer. We only have one married priest in the Eparchy (Father Francis from Sacramento), but he is Slovak ethnically, so he is an import.

We'll see what happens, though.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2012, 09:16:08 AM »

I recognize this topic has been active for a while, but there are two married deacons in my Eparchy who are going to be ordained next summer. We only have one married priest in the Eparchy (Father Francis from Sacramento), but he is Slovak ethnically, so he is an import.

We'll see what happens, though.

Your Bishop is a vocation from Holy Spirit BCC in Binghamton, NY - which today has a married priest and family (from Slovakia). He had many relatives at our next door Orthodox parish as well. Let us pray he follows through with the ordinations.
Logged
Tags: celibacy clerical celibacy clericalism 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.425 seconds with 170 queries.