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Author Topic: Are some of us a little hard on protestants??  (Read 3929 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 15, 2012, 10:03:59 PM »

Im mainly referring to myself here.  As a jaded ex-protestant, I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  I feel like this is mainly happens with other converts (or future converts) like myself.  I dont have anyone in particular in mind that Im calling out, but has anyone else noticed this?  And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  Should we maybe, in an act of humility, assume that protestants (or even Catholics for that matter) will be saved and that we (as individuals) have more work to do?  (I do think that Catholics and Protestants will be saved by the way)

I dont know what Im saying, but I feel like in my exploration of the Orthodox faith, I have found the truth.  I really believe that.  But in the process, I feel like I have been an arrogant jerk.  As some of you know, Im still very involved in protestant churches with the contract music I do.  When I would hear a preacher/speaker give a sermon, I used to try and pick it apart and figure out how I was right and they were wrong.  Lately, I have realized my sin and have tried to figure out what they say that is right and where we have common ground to work together.  

Anyone else feel me?  Maybe we could try and worry about ourselves more and not be so harsh to other people who may not be aware of everything that Orthodoxy has to offer.

This is mainly addressed to myself, but if there is anyone else out there who can relate to me, or has been where ive been, I just want to encourage us to try and be more loving (and I dont mean compromising doctrine or dogma) and not be so harsh and end up pushing people away.  These people who we are sometimes so harsh toward really do love Jesus and are in a place where they are growing closer to Him.

That is all.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:06:21 PM by Timon » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 10:16:41 PM »

I disagree. Protestantism is spiritual cancer and I am speaking this from my experience as an ex-Protestant. Protestantism pollutes Christianity and we have to be on guard against them and point out the error of their ways, especially during these post-modern times where people think that all Christians are the same and it is okay if you are some type of Christian.
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 10:30:54 PM »

Settle down, James.
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 10:35:15 PM »

Im mainly referring to myself here.  As a jaded ex-protestant, I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  I feel like this is mainly happens with other converts (or future converts) like myself.  I dont have anyone in particular in mind that Im calling out, but has anyone else noticed this?  And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  Should we maybe, in an act of humility, assume that protestants (or even Catholics for that matter) will be saved and that we (as individuals) have more work to do?  (I do think that Catholics and Protestants will be saved by the way)

I dont know what Im saying, but I feel like in my exploration of the Orthodox faith, I have found the truth.  I really believe that.  But in the process, I feel like I have been an arrogant jerk.  As some of you know, Im still very involved in protestant churches with the contract music I do.  When I would hear a preacher/speaker give a sermon, I used to try and pick it apart and figure out how I was right and they were wrong.  Lately, I have realized my sin and have tried to figure out what they say that is right and where we have common ground to work together.  

Anyone else feel me?  Maybe we could try and worry about ourselves more and not be so harsh to other people who may not be aware of everything that Orthodoxy has to offer.

This is mainly addressed to myself, but if there is anyone else out there who can relate to me, or has been where ive been, I just want to encourage us to try and be more loving (and I dont mean compromising doctrine or dogma) and not be so harsh and end up pushing people away.  These people who we are sometimes so harsh toward really do love Jesus and are in a place where they are growing closer to Him.

That is all.

I'm with you.  Regardless of what a person thinks of certain protestant theologies, being an a-hole doesn't draw anyone closer to the fullness of Christianity.  It only makes you an a-hole.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 10:35:49 PM »

I disagree. Protestantism is spiritual cancer and I am speaking this from my experience as an ex-Protestant. Protestantism pollutes Christianity and we have to be on guard against them and point out the error of their ways, especially during these post-modern times where people think that all Christians are the same and it is okay if you are some type of Christian.

Like I said, I dont think we should compromise on doctrine or dogma.  But when we seem to elevate ourselves above all the other Christians, I think it does more harm than good.  Keep in mind, most protestants arent actually "protesting" against Catholics or Orthodox like they were 500 years ago.  Theyre just going to church, trying to live a Holy life and grow closer to God.  I certainly agree that they have plenty of incorrect teachings, but I have heard several priests say, when referring to my protestant family members, "If they are in a place where they feel like they love God and are growing closer to Him, then leave them alone."  I think I agree with that.  I also, as always, could be wrong.

And also, James, with all due respect, I lied.  I said I didnt have anyone in particular in mind when writing this, but some of your posts are what inspired me to write this.  Its not necessarily that I disagree with anything you say, but its that I see a lot of myself in how you address the heterodox, and I, speaking from my own experience as an ex-protestant, have seen how it ultimately does more harm than good when trying to share our new found faith with people.  Maybe you have had a different experience than me though.

I hope you dont take this the wrong way, James, but I truly want everyone to experience the Orthodox faith.  But I also really think that by sharing the love of Christ and not assuming that we have all the answers, or that were better than anyone else, we are more likely to accomplish that goal.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:58:21 PM by Timon » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 10:48:05 PM »

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being an a-hole doesn't draw anyone closer to the fullness of Christianity.  It only makes you an a-hole.

exactly.  i have found myself guilty of being an a-hole at times, and now im trying to undo any damage that I may have done.
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 10:58:02 PM »

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being an a-hole doesn't draw anyone closer to the fullness of Christianity.  It only makes you an a-hole.

exactly.  i have found myself guilty of being an a-hole at times, and now im trying to undo any damage that I may have done.

I've been there and will probably be there again.
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 10:58:56 PM »

I'm a jerk a lot of the time, but I hope I'm not a jerk about this particular thing. My own mother was very committed and serious about loving and following Christ and, yes, a Protestant. Other people's moms are also Protestants, I'm sure. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 10:59:44 PM »

I'm a jerk a lot of the time, but I hope I'm not a jerk about this particular thing. My own mother was a very committed and serious lover of Christ and, yes, a Protestant. Other people's moms are also Protestants, I'm sure. Smiley

Mine. And my mother in-law.  And I certainly have no reason to question their salvation.
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 11:03:29 PM »

I've said things over the years that were probably uncharitable... though I tend to do that with all groups I suppose. I will say, though, that while I don't often say stuff these days about Protestants (I think?), I do harbor a rather low opinion of them. I don't necessarily want to, I just do. When I watch or read critiques of certain Christian ideas, I often find myself thinking something like: "Oh yeah, you can refute Evangelicals, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel. What about Catholics or Orthodox?" I do tend to hold, say, more traditionally minded Anglicans/Anglo-Catholics/whatever, or even more traditional Lutherans, Wesleyans, etc., separate from your typical non-denominational types... but anyway, I shouldn't be prideful/judgmental about it regardless...   In fact, a couple months ago I started seeing a new therapist (cause I iz crazy), and in the first session she mentioned that her MA was from Liberty University. She also mentioned something related to Catholicism, so I asked her if she would share what her belief system was, and she said something vague about pentacostalism. "Oh boy," I thought, "this is gonna be interesting". By "interesting" I meant a lot of things, including that she was probably going to be completely unhelpful, and perhaps I even verged on thinking that she would be incapable of helping me. She has turned out to be the most helpful therapist I've ever had--and I've had more than a few over the last 16 years.
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 11:09:58 PM »

I've said things over the years that were probably uncharitable... though I tend to do that with all groups I suppose. I will say, though, that while I don't often say stuff these days about Protestants (I think?), I do harbor a rather low opinion of them. I don't necessarily want to, I just do. When I watch or read critiques of certain Christian ideas, I often find myself thinking something like: "Oh yeah, you can refute Evangelicals, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel. What about Catholics or Orthodox?" I do tend to hold, say, more traditionally minded Anglicans/Anglo-Catholics/whatever, or even more traditional Lutherans, Wesleyans, etc., separate from your typical non-denominational types... but anyway, maybe I shouldn't...   In fact, a couple months ago I started seeing a new therapist (cause I iz crazy), and in the first session she mentioned that her MA was from Liberty University. She also mentioned something related to Catholicism, so I asked her if she would share what her belief system was, and she said something vague about pentacostalism. "Oh boy," I thought, "this is gonna be interesting". By "interesting" I meant a lot of things, including that she was going to be completely unhelpful, and perhaps I even verged on thinking that she would be incapable of helping me. She has turned out to be the most helpful therapist I've ever had--and I've had more than a few over the last 16 years.

I admit that I am guilty of this too.  I tend to have a lower opinion of them, but I am trying to work on this.  I often see my friends re-tweet a popular evangelical person or something, or hear them talk about their worship service last week, and I think to myself, "My goodness, you have no idea...."

I dont know if its necessarily wrong to have those thoughts, but I used to act on them and would wind up criticizing people.  Looking back, that was a terrible idea.  Ultimately, I found Orthodoxy because I was raised to love God as a protestant.  I have to trust that God will at some point do that for everyone, even if he does it on the other side of the grave.
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 11:10:12 PM »

I'm a jerk a lot of the time, but I hope I'm not a jerk about this particular thing. My own mother was very committed and serious about loving and following Christ and, yes, a Protestant. Other people's moms are also Protestants, I'm sure. Smiley

Mine as well. If I can be half the Christian my mom is, it would be a great improvement. My grandma (mom's mom) is the holiest lady I know. Do I think they have doctrines wrong? Yes, absolutely. But they love Christ and I see the fruit of it in their lives. I'm not being a relativist here, just saying that I think God draws all men to Himself, and they have to come from somewhere.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 11:14:17 PM »

I've said things over the years that were probably uncharitable... though I tend to do that with all groups I suppose. I will say, though, that while I don't often say stuff these days about Protestants (I think?), I do harbor a rather low opinion of them. I don't necessarily want to, I just do. When I watch or read critiques of certain Christian ideas, I often find myself thinking something like: "Oh yeah, you can refute Evangelicals, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel. What about Catholics or Orthodox?" I do tend to hold, say, more traditionally minded Anglicans/Anglo-Catholics/whatever, or even more traditional Lutherans, Wesleyans, etc., separate from your typical non-denominational types... but anyway, maybe I shouldn't...   In fact, a couple months ago I started seeing a new therapist (cause I iz crazy), and in the first session she mentioned that her MA was from Liberty University. She also mentioned something related to Catholicism, so I asked her if she would share what her belief system was, and she said something vague about pentacostalism. "Oh boy," I thought, "this is gonna be interesting". By "interesting" I meant a lot of things, including that she was going to be completely unhelpful, and perhaps I even verged on thinking that she would be incapable of helping me. She has turned out to be the most helpful therapist I've ever had--and I've had more than a few over the last 16 years.

I admit that I am guilty of this too.  I tend to have a lower opinion of them, but I am trying to work on this.  I often see my friends re-tweet a popular evangelical person or something, or hear them talk about their worship service last week, and I think to myself, "My goodness, you have no idea...."

I dont know if its necessarily wrong to have those thoughts, but I used to act on them and would wind up criticizing people.  Looking back, that was a terrible idea.  Ultimately, I found Orthodoxy because I was raised to love God as a protestant.  I have to trust that God will at some point do that for everyone, even if he does it on the other side of the grave.

I think you're doing okay, Timon, for what it's worth.
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 11:14:33 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said "hard on".
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 11:15:37 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said "hard on".
Only you would see a double entendre where there is none. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 11:16:50 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said "hard on".
Only you would see a double entendre where there is none. Roll Eyes

I actually noticed that as soon as I posted it.... haha!

Now, back to the topic....
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 11:24:08 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said "hard on".
Only you would see a double entendre where there is none. Roll Eyes

I actually noticed that as soon as I posted it.... haha!
Yup. Shows where your mind is. Wink
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 12:22:25 AM »

I disagree. Protestantism is spiritual cancer and I am speaking this from my experience as an ex-Protestant. Protestantism pollutes Christianity and we have to be on guard against them and point out the error of their ways, especially during these post-modern times where people think that all Christians are the same and it is okay if you are some type of Christian.

Yes, so many years experience. 

I believe that the path to Salvation is much harder in many of the Protestant denominations.  But I still think that it is possible.  Christ makes it clear in the New Testament what is necessary for Salvation.  If someone is ernestly trying to serve Christ (and I have seen many in the Protestant churches that are) and has not outright rejected the True Church, I think that they will be judged accordingly.  We have less excuse for or errors than they do.
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 01:25:45 AM »

Im mainly referring to myself here.  As a jaded ex-protestant, I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  I feel like this is mainly happens with other converts (or future converts) like myself.  I dont have anyone in particular in mind that Im calling out, but has anyone else noticed this?  And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  Should we maybe, in an act of humility, assume that protestants (or even Catholics for that matter) will be saved and that we (as individuals) have more work to do?  (I do think that Catholics and Protestants will be saved by the way)

I dont know what Im saying, but I feel like in my exploration of the Orthodox faith, I have found the truth.  I really believe that.  But in the process, I feel like I have been an arrogant jerk.  As some of you know, Im still very involved in protestant churches with the contract music I do.  When I would hear a preacher/speaker give a sermon, I used to try and pick it apart and figure out how I was right and they were wrong.  Lately, I have realized my sin and have tried to figure out what they say that is right and where we have common ground to work together.  

Anyone else feel me?  Maybe we could try and worry about ourselves more and not be so harsh to other people who may not be aware of everything that Orthodoxy has to offer.

This is mainly addressed to myself, but if there is anyone else out there who can relate to me, or has been where ive been, I just want to encourage us to try and be more loving (and I dont mean compromising doctrine or dogma) and not be so harsh and end up pushing people away.  These people who we are sometimes so harsh toward really do love Jesus and are in a place where they are growing closer to Him.

That is all.

We should operate as though the whole of creation will be redeemed, but that we (that is, each individual should assume they) will be damned.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 08:10:09 AM »

I'm only hard on the fundamentalists, cause they deserve to be humbled a little. The moderate protestant I can actually have respect for.
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 08:31:46 AM »

A couple of weeks ago I enjoyed a pleasant 20 minutes or so with an Orthodox monk, in the monastery where he lives, though conversation was limited by his poor English and my much worse Greek. Last year and a bit before that, I had time with a couple of bishops. One ended up wishing me blessing "in the Lord's vineyard", the other (who I think would properly be called Byzantine Catholic) sat and conversed with me and my three friends for perhaps half an hour or more, and was warmly friendly. These three men were considerably more winsome, and did more for Orthodoxy, than the ones who have publicly cursed us and any who give us hospitality, or called us descendants of Judas Iscariot.

My hope for this Forum is not that it will generate conversions from one side to the other, but will (a) promote better mutual understanding and thus respect, and (b) draw people of either 'side' to Christ if their faith is shaky, or deepen it if it is well established already. It does me good to be made to ponder seriously on graciously worded challenges on various threads; insulting posts I merely ignore.
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 08:48:33 AM »

What I don't ever get when Orthodox bag on Protestants is that the blame in my opinion is with Rome. If they didn't have the doctrine of the primacy of their Pope there would have never been a schism, and with no schism probably wouldn't have been the corruption of the Western church, therefore no need for a reformation. I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days and they were probably so jaded by concentrated power that they reasonably didn't trust any established church.
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 09:09:23 AM »

 And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  

This is pretty much where I am now. It was not always thus! Wink I enjoy a good theological smackdown as much as anyone. But I came to realize that no one was ever argued into faith.

That said, if you have found something overwhelmingly beautiful, the pearl of great price as it were, isn't it natural to run around joyfully trying to show people?
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 09:13:30 AM »

In fact, a couple months ago I started seeing a new therapist (cause I iz crazy), and in the first session she mentioned that her MA was from Liberty University. She also mentioned something related to Catholicism, so I asked her if she would share what her belief system was, and she said something vague about pentacostalism. "Oh boy," I thought, "this is gonna be interesting". By "interesting" I meant a lot of things, including that she was probably going to be completely unhelpful, and perhaps I even verged on thinking that she would be incapable of helping me. She has turned out to be the most helpful therapist I've ever had--and I've had more than a few over the last 16 years.

Ask her if she knows Dick Cheney.
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2012, 09:15:43 AM »

I disagree. Protestantism is spiritual cancer and I am speaking this from my experience as an ex-Protestant. Protestantism pollutes Christianity and we have to be on guard against them and point out the error of their ways, especially during these post-modern times where people think that all Christians are the same and it is okay if you are some type of Christian.

First let me say that I definitely prefer your statement over the one made by RC priest Fr. J Steele, about the "Melkite cancer".

Nevertheless, I find it suspicious when people find their identity in their rejection of something. Not that I can't relate -- I can, from my own experience several years, when "not being Protestant" was a big part of my identity. Kind of like equating the question "Which is better, Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism or Eastern Catholicism?" with "Which of them is less Protestant?"
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 09:46:12 AM »

 And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  

This is pretty much where I am now. It was not always thus! Wink I enjoy a good theological smackdown as much as anyone. But I came to realize that no one was ever argued into faith.

That said, if you have found something overwhelmingly beautiful, the pearl of great price as it were, isn't it natural to run around joyfully trying to show people?
+1

I can point out plenty of theological flaws in a given doctrinal system, but some of the holiest people I have met were poor, rural fundamentalists who never knew anything more. Even without the access to the things I have access to, they are more likely to receive the uncreated light than I.

I disagree. Protestantism is spiritual cancer and I am speaking this from my experience as an ex-Protestant. Protestantism pollutes Christianity and we have to be on guard against them and point out the error of their ways, especially during these post-modern times where people think that all Christians are the same and it is okay if you are some type of Christian.
And Hyperdoxy is a virus that can blind one to true Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 10:17:14 AM »

I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days

Actually the communication between the Protestants and the Orthodox in XVIth and XVIIth century was quite good.
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 10:28:44 AM »

I am certainly happy with the responses that have been given here.  I hope you guys, my friends, and family, will forgive me for being so Hyperdox.

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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 10:30:59 AM »

 And does anyone else think that maybe we should worry about our own faith/salvation and let God deal with everyone else?  

This is pretty much where I am now. It was not always thus! Wink I enjoy a good theological smackdown as much as anyone. But I came to realize that no one was ever argued into faith.

Im 100% with you!!

Quote
That said, if you have found something overwhelmingly beautiful, the pearl of great price as it were, isn't it natural to run around joyfully trying to show people?

Yes.  But if youre rude about it, and basically tell people theyre stupid if they dont wear a pearl necklace, they might not be as interested! haha
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 10:37:39 AM »

they were probably so jaded by concentrated power that they reasonably didn't trust any established church.

You'd be surprised by how much concentrated power was backing Luther...
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 10:44:06 AM »

I guess as a recent convert, looking "back" on Protestantism, I find alot of the claims to be rather silly in light of history. I really have to remember that I knew the history and believed that way too for a very long time. Not everyone who sees a painting will see the same painting.

PP
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 10:58:49 AM »

they were probably so jaded by concentrated power that they reasonably didn't trust any established church.

You'd be surprised by how much concentrated power was backing Luther...

It's the only reason he didn't get killed, I know. I'm speaking of a Religious concentrated power like that of the Papacy.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 11:07:56 AM »

I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days

Actually the communication between the Protestants and the Orthodox in XVIth and XVIIth century was quite good.

I know that's true with the Lutherans, I actually read a lot of the communications back and forth from that period. Not sure about all the other Protestants by that time if they were in contact with the East?
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 01:30:20 PM »

they were probably so jaded by concentrated power that they reasonably didn't trust any established church.

You'd be surprised by how much concentrated power was backing Luther...

It's the only reason he didn't get killed, I know. I'm speaking of a Religious concentrated power like that of the Papacy.

Geneva or Canterbury...

I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days

Actually the communication between the Protestants and the Orthodox in XVIth and XVIIth century was quite good.

I know that's true with the Lutherans, I actually read a lot of the communications back and forth from that period. Not sure about all the other Protestants by that time if they were in contact with the East?

I know it was easy with Calvinists in Rzeczpospolita and Austria too.
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 01:34:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I agree completely and I am very much guilty of these.  I think it is important for us all (myself especially included) to remember that protestantism is a dangerous and divisive heresy.  However, Protestants themselves are just gullible, ignorant, or sorry sinners like the rest of us.  We ALL need continually repentance and reconciliation, and none of us are greater than another.  If anything, we are worse than they, for we are Orthodox, and have no excuses being acquainted with the Grace of God through the Divine Mysteries.  They are outsiders, they are free in their ignorance, and God will bless them in His time.  We should stay in prayer for us all. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 01:40:40 PM »

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If anything, we are worse than they, for we are Orthodox,  and have no excuses being acquainted with the Grace of God through the Divine Mysteries

exactly.  it doesnt make sense to claim that we have the fullness of the faith, and then not love as Christ commands of us. 

and I realize I probably shouldnt say "we" as I am not officially Orthodox yet.  guess im getting a little ahead of myself. ha!
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 01:57:07 PM »

O.K. now here is an interesting post!  Smiley
 
I hope its o.k. that I chime in with the ‘outside the box’ opinion.

First off Timon, I have not read anything you have ever written that would give clue of any harshness or prejudice you mention. I’ll take your word for it and say God bless for looking into the shadowed corners of anything you see in yourself, but you have never offended me bro! On the contrary in fact.

A few years ago well before I joined OC.net (to which I feel grateful, humbled, and literally blessed to be part of) I had a very brief correspondence via e-mail with an Orthodox Christian from Kosovo. Long story but I was offering prayer and support to what our brethren were going through over there. I mentioned I was ‘Protestant’ and if he did not mind the Church I belong would pray for him (them) and the tribulations they were going through. I have long since deleted the e-mail but I should never forget something he said. I’ll paraphrase the best I can… ‘I can not ever turn from the Truth and Love I have found in Orthodoxy. I must remind myself though of our Lords ‘new’ command; to love thy neighbor as thyself, and not judge or look down upon those seeking God in a way different than my own.’

I think we can all learn and take heed in those wise words. It is not just an Orthodox issue of course. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and the many sects of Protestants all are guilty of what you mention. Protestants might even be harshest toward other Protestants in some cases. I realize and do not wish to down play the significant differences there clearly are.  Yet when compared to the infinite Love of our Lord God that we do share, are those differences not much smaller? As the many different denominations and creeds, proclaiming the Truth and Love of our Lord Christ bicker and quarrel surely God must shake His head. Even worst; does the evil one simply smile? Satan’s goal is to bring down God’s kingdom is it not? What better way than do divide us that in some cases lead to an ill will that is contrary to the purification God wants for each of us. Take my opinion for what it worth of course as I put myself in the front row of repenting sinners and fools. Not only that I'm considered a Protestant.  Grin

If I may address JamesR as I too of course have read some of his less than flattering posts. Yet, what I hear is a young man of intelligence and passion intensely seeking the Lord. He has found what he believes as the Truth in Orthodoxy, and I say glory to God. James (forgive me if this is unwelcome) I certainly could be wrong but I get the impression that in some way a certain group of Protestants have some how harmed and scarred you perhaps. (Maybe directly or maybe just because of some doctrine or behavior that for some reason upsets you so) I would only like to say that perhaps you would consider the paragraph above. Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’. Allow me to extend my hand in the name of Christ and say I respect you for your beliefs, and your enthusiastic quest for our Lord God. Your passion is unquestioned in my eyes, and I only wish I had the knowledge and foundation as you do, when I was your age. Ummm, well, maybe even at my present age!?!  Wink
 
Peace & Grace
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 02:16:45 PM »

Quote
‘I can not ever turn from the Truth and Love I have found in Orthodoxy. I must remind myself though of our Lords ‘new’ command; to love thy neighbor as thyself, and not judge or look down upon those seeking God in a way different than my own.’

Great quote.  And the more I listen to Orthodox Priests and monks, this is the mentality I keep hearing.  I sometimes see lay people (like myself) being hard on other Christians, but I dont often see it from the leaders in the Church.  (im sure you can dig up an article on google or video on youtube of an Orthodox clergy saying something not so nice, but overall I dont hear it from them very much, if at all.)

And I certainly didnt want this to turn into something where we all jump on JamesR.  He isnt the reason I started this thread.  I have just read some of his posts and they were almost exactly in the same tone I have addressed my protestant friends and family at times.  I certainly think James has wisdom and knowledge FAR beyond his years.  Hes certainly smarter than me and I have a college degree, a job, family, provide for myself, etc.  I would just hate to see people think negatively of Orthodoxy because someone like myself didnt treat others the way Christ would have. 

And for the last time, incase anyone hasnt read this whole thing, im not saying we should compromise on what our Church believes, but we certainly wont convince anyone of anything by being rude about it.  I just need to explain the East's position when asked and not bash everyone else in the process. 
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 02:20:31 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said "hard on".
Only you would see a double entendre where there is none. Roll Eyes

Frequently certain, often wrong: PtA.

I too got a chuckle out of the title.
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2012, 02:21:48 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Not that much discussion goes on here . . .

Sheesh. You all must be downers.

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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

Well said, alanscott. :thumbsup: As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2012, 02:27:18 PM »

I guess as a recent convert, looking "back" on Protestantism, I find alot of the claims to be rather silly in light of history. I really have to remember that I knew the history and believed that way too for a very long time. Not everyone who sees a painting will see the same painting.

PP

Wait till you look back on some of the claims of Orthodoxy.

Be careful of Triumphalism.

And really your post is rife with all the "philosophical baggage" the Netodox rant about.

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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2012, 02:28:23 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Not that much discussion goes on here . . .

Sheesh. You all must be downers.



I discuss it quite regularly.
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 02:29:10 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Not that much discussion goes on here . . .

Sheesh. You all must be downers.



I discuss it quite regularly.

Stop.
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2012, 02:29:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would further like to sincerely agree and big up Timon's OP sentiments that we should all be worried exclusively about ourselves.  My priests explained it to me that in Orthodox, its best for us to only worry about our own salvation, and pray for others.  Be they in our families, our friendships, our work places, or just out in the world, we can only pray for others, and can only take care of our own souls.  Eternal life at the end of the day is an individual matter of the heart.  Another priest wisely said to me this weekend, "The rest of this world is an illusion, all that counts is yourself."  That is true.  We sin when we get caught up in things around us, the spinning of the Cosmic Wheel, but when we go inside ourselves in prayer, we commune with God and find out true identity in Salvation.  We can't give this to others by teaching or browbeating, only God can give this gift of the Spirit.  So we can just pray.  I like to think to myself that "everybody else BUT me is already saved, so I've got a lot of work yet to do."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Orthodoxy isn't about a religion, it's about a relationship, and I'm not the kind of guy that kisses and tells. You want me to talk about the intimate details of such a relationship with family and friends, like it's nothing? Really? I am not so flippant, sir; no, I could never be so impertinent as all that.

Long live the best kept secret!
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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2012, 02:35:27 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Not that much discussion goes on here . . .

Sheesh. You all must be downers.



I discuss it quite regularly.

Stop.

no. my wife likes to ask me questions. as do friends. the whole point of this thread was because when this happens, im a jerk about it. im trying to fix that.
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« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2012, 02:37:35 PM »

Quote
I like to think to myself that "everybody else BUT me is already saved, so I've got a lot of work yet to do."

hit the nail right on the head.
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« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2012, 02:55:49 PM »

Quote
Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?
Actually, I do with some regularity. My wife is on the fence, so she has alot of questions. After they convert, God willing, I wont be talking about it too much.

PP
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« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2012, 02:59:57 PM »

One day Abba Isaac went to a monastery. He saw a brother committing a sin and he condemned him. When he returned to the desert, an angel of the Lord came and stood in front of the door of his cell, and said, 'I will not let you enter.' But he persisted saying, 'What is the matter?', and the angel replied, 'God has sent me to ask you where you want to throw the guilty brother whom you have condemned.' Immediately he repented and said, 'I have sinned, forgive me.' Then the angel said, 'Get up, God has forgiven you. But from now on, be careful not to judge someone before God has done so.' -- A story of St. Isaac the Theban, from the sayings of the Desert Fathers (trans. Benedicta Ward, SLG, revised ed., 1984)
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« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2012, 03:41:05 PM »

Outside of this insane asylum of internetz when do you people ever really discuss "religion"?

Not that much discussion goes on here . . .

Sheesh. You all must be downers.



I do.
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« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said " a little hard on".

there corrected it for you ; you forgot the bad word.  Wink
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« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2012, 04:46:08 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said " a little hard on".

there corrected it for you ; you forgot the bad word.  Wink

Hiwot FTW!

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2012, 05:10:36 PM »

I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days

Actually the communication between the Protestants and the Orthodox in XVIth and XVIIth century was quite good.

The Lutherans got hung up on defending filioque. If only they'd looked deeper.
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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »

I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days

Actually the communication between the Protestants and the Orthodox in XVIth and XVIIth century was quite good.

The Lutherans got hung up on defending filioque. If only they'd looked deeper.

True and the Lutherans were wrong on that point, it's too bad. The ELCA currently endorses the original creed without the flioque but don't mandate it. It's weird since Lutherans promote sola scripture and scripture clearly states the holy spirt proceeds from the father (John 15:26).
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2012, 05:36:27 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said " a little hard on".

there corrected it for you ; you forgot the bad word.  Wink

HIWOT!
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« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2012, 05:39:35 PM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said " a little hard on".

there corrected it for you ; you forgot the bad word.  Wink

I'm glad I didn't make that joke earlier in the thread. Much better to let a pious and intelligent woman do it.  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2012, 05:44:43 PM »

Wow. I thought Hiwot was like this:  angel, but it turns out she's a little bit like this, too:

What's next...Isa is next in line to become Roman Pope? ZZ's llama is secretly very sad? JamesR really loves Protestantism? I think I need to lay down for a while...
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2012, 05:55:15 PM »

 laugh laugh Grin  I couldn't resist LOL
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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2012, 05:55:57 PM »

Wow. I thought Hiwot was like this:  angel, but it turns out she's a little bit like this, too:

What's next...Isa is next in line to become Roman Pope? ZZ's llama is secretly very sad? JamesR really loves Protestantism? I think I need to lay down for a while...

1. I am sure Isa thinks he would be an improvement over the past zillion or so Popes.

2. JamesR is falling in love with hiwot so he no longer has time for anything else

3. Orthonorm is jealous of hiweot's wit.

I love this unexpected curve ball thrown at us.

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« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2012, 05:57:37 PM »

Stop.

That would sound a lot more impressive if you added "Orthonorm has spoken".
:emoticon:
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« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2012, 06:00:03 PM »

Wow. I thought Hiwot was like this:  angel, but it turns out she's a little bit like this, too:

What's next...Isa is next in line to become Roman Pope? ZZ's llama is secretly very sad? JamesR really loves Protestantism? I think I need to lay down for a while...

1. I am sure Isa thinks he would be an improvement over the past zillion or so Popes.

2. JamesR is falling in love with hiwot so he no longer has time for anything else

3. Orthonorm is jealous of hiweot's wit.

I love this unexpected curve ball thrown at us.



Me too! I just wasn't expecting it. As for your numbers...

1. I'm pretty sure I agree...think of how amazing the visitor's maps to the Vatican would be!

2 and 3. Aren't we all? Wink
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« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2012, 06:09:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Easy forum, please keep it in y'all pants Wink

After all,


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2012, 06:09:36 PM »

1. I'm pretty sure I agree...think of how amazing the visitor's maps to the Vatican would be!

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« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2012, 06:18:07 PM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.
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« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2012, 06:34:00 PM »

Wow. I thought Hiwot was like this:  angel, but it turns out she's a little bit like this, too:

What's next...Isa is next in line to become Roman Pope? ZZ's llama is secretly very sad? JamesR really loves Protestantism? I think I need to lay down for a while...

1. I am sure Isa thinks he would be an improvement over the past zillion or so Popes.

2. JamesR is falling in love with hiwot so he no longer has time for anything else

3. Orthonorm is jealous of hiweot's wit.

I love this unexpected curve ball thrown at us.



LOL some days  must feel  like  stepping into the outer limits   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7vPbthvWo

or this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKySE6EqQtg   
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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2012, 06:51:58 PM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.
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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2012, 07:29:06 PM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Well, um, ya know how I mentioned I don't want to overlook or down play the significant differences?  Wink
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« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2012, 07:34:26 PM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Well, um, ya know how I mentioned I don't want to overlook or down play the significant differences?  Wink

Yes.  Huh
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« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2012, 07:38:24 PM »

What I don't ever get when Orthodox bag on Protestants is that the blame in my opinion is with Rome. If they didn't have the doctrine of the primacy of their Pope there would have never been a schism, and with no schism probably wouldn't have been the corruption of the Western church, therefore no need for a reformation. I don't think you can universally blame them for "not looking East" because I would imagine communication was hard in those days and they were probably so jaded by concentrated power that they reasonably didn't trust any established church.
Why am I not surprised that this post would come from some one who calls oneself "Happy Lutheran"?  Cheesy
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« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

I sometimes chuckle when people on this board use "Protestant" as an insult in describing a theological opinion or doctrine that's really liberal or weird and no one thinks anything of it.

If course I'm worse than even that. I insult Roman Catholic liturgies by calling them "protestantized" and I've never been to any kind of Protestant service.
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« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2012, 12:48:58 AM »

Bad wording with the title. Just wanted to point out you said " a little hard on".

there corrected it for you ; you forgot the bad word.  Wink

I'm glad I didn't make that joke earlier in the thread. Much better to let a pious and intelligent woman do it.  Grin

Im late to the party again.  I was too busy going 4-4 on the softball field.  And scoring the winning, walk off run.  Just another Wednesday night...

Anyways... this was hilarious.  Guess I need to think long and hard about the titles of my threads from now on...

...
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« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2012, 06:45:31 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Well, um, ya know how I mentioned I don't want to overlook or down play the significant differences?  Wink

Yes.  Huh

P.S. The reason I added Huh is b/c I'm not sure what you're driving at. I completely agree that there are significant differences among
protestant groups (e.g. Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) and among different catholic groups (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics).
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« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2012, 07:14:24 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Whatever you do don't say that to my mother. She'd agree about High Church Anglicans but not Lutherans. Her, frankly horrific, phrase shortly after she found out I was converting was 'I may not be a good Christian but I'm a DAMN good Protestant', emphasis in the original. I used to joke that she made Iain Paisley look like a Catholic and she's been a staunch Lutheran all her life. She used to rail against our icons and wasn't amused at all when I pointed out Luther's views on the Theotokos or the fact that her home church is full of statuary. She's calmed down a lot (probably in no small part due to the fact that I've stopped being so openly anti-Protestant - it certainly doesn't help matters to be antagonistic even when you know you're right Wink)and seems to have accepted my faith over the last ten years but catholic, to her, would be almost synonymous with heretic, I think.

James
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« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2012, 07:41:17 AM »

Protestantism is spiritual cancer....
The Quakers are pretty good.
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« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2012, 07:51:18 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Whatever you do don't say that to my mother. She'd agree about High Church Anglicans but not Lutherans.

You mean, she's loathe to call Lutherans "catholic"? I guess that's probably not terribly uncommon.

P.S. Since I tend to read, and to some extent write, about this stuff a lot, I tend to forget that when somebody says "catholic" you can't tell if the c is capitalized.  Shocked  Wink (Ditto for "Protestant"/"protestant", although that one's not much of an issue.)
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« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2012, 08:13:41 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Well, um, ya know how I mentioned I don't want to overlook or down play the significant differences?  Wink

Yes.  Huh

P.S. The reason I added Huh is b/c I'm not sure what you're driving at. I completely agree that there are significant differences among
protestant groups (e.g. Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) and among different catholic groups (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics).

That was a little vague Peter. Sorry! It was also a little lazy. I was ready for dinner and bed!  Smiley

I was just suggesting that because of the significant differences I wouldn't go as far as to say Anglican and Lutheran are Catholic and Protestant. To my limited knowledge they are indeed the closest to Catholicism. I think (?) you and I might agree (I realize many might strongly object) that Anglican, Lutheran, and Catholic are part of the Body of Christ and in that way, plus their similarities I suppose, they are not mutually exclusive of each other. By basic text book definition though, I would have to say Anglican and Lutheran are Protestants. 

I would also say (in spirit of the OP) and I’m thinking you may agree to some extent, we sure do get caught up in the labels don’t we?
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« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2012, 08:18:54 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Whatever you do don't say that to my mother. She'd agree about High Church Anglicans but not Lutherans.

You mean, she's loathe to call Lutherans "catholic"? I guess that's probably not terribly uncommon.

I think that might be rather an understatement but yes. I know where you're coming from and I kind of agree with you but Lutheranism tends to encompass all sorts (though I don't it ever really goes as catholic as High Church Anglicanism) and there are certainly an awful lot of VERY Protestant Lutherans just as there are Anglicans. I think you could say that the two churches are both catholic and protestant, but I think within those two churches most individuals probably fall to one side more than the other (and most Lutherans I know are decidedly Protestant while many if not most of the Anglicans I know would definitely fall more under the catholic banner).

James
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« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2012, 08:50:30 AM »

I completely agree that there are significant differences among protestant groups (e.g. Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) and among different catholic groups (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics).

That was a little vague Peter. Sorry! It was also a little lazy. I was ready for dinner and bed!  Smiley

I was just suggesting that because of the significant differences I wouldn't go as far as to say Anglican and Lutheran are Catholic and Protestant.

I wouldn't either though. I say that they're catholic and protestant, which isn't the same thing. To me, Catholic is a proper name, just like Anglican and Lutheran are proper names. On the other hand, adjectives like catholic, protestant, apostolic, conservative, progressive etc can be applied to many different groups. For example, Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists aren't very similar to each other, but they're all protestant. Tall people don't all look alike. Grin
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« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2012, 11:40:37 AM »

Consider also that Protestants are as diverse as the stars. We are not all like those that seem to have upset you sir. We most certainly are not all ‘one group’.

...As I said on another thread (I forget which one) assuming that protestants are one monolithic group makes as little sense as assuming that catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics) are one monolithic group.

I vaguely remember that. Agreed then - agree now. Dare I take it a step further and say some Protestant sects are closer in line with Orthodox and Roman Catholic than they are with other Protestants? I would certainly consider the Church I pray at much closer to Orthodoxy than to a Calvinist Church for example.

Yes, I think so. I used to wonder "Anglicans and Lutherans, are they Protestant or aren't they?" It was a bit frustrating. Underneath it was my assumption that catholic and protestant are mutually exclusive qualities. Eventually I gave up that assumption, and concluded that Anglicans and Lutherans, are catholic and protestant.

Whatever you do don't say that to my mother. She'd agree about High Church Anglicans but not Lutherans.

You mean, she's loathe to call Lutherans "catholic"? I guess that's probably not terribly uncommon.



I used to know a Lutheran pastor who would introduce himself as a Catholic of the Augsburg Confession.
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« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2012, 12:05:56 PM »

Quote
Catholic catholic of the Augsburg Confession
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« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2012, 01:06:20 PM »

I completely agree that there are significant differences among protestant groups (e.g. Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.) and among different catholic groups (Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics).

That was a little vague Peter. Sorry! It was also a little lazy. I was ready for dinner and bed!  Smiley

I was just suggesting that because of the significant differences I wouldn't go as far as to say Anglican and Lutheran are Catholic and Protestant.

I wouldn't either though. I say that they're catholic and protestant, which isn't the same thing. To me, Catholic is a proper name, just like Anglican and Lutheran are proper names. On the other hand, adjectives like catholic, protestant, apostolic, conservative, progressive etc can be applied to many different groups. For example, Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists aren't very similar to each other, but they're all protestant. Tall people don't all look alike. Grin

Gotcha. I kinda mis-understood what you said then.

Peace & Grace
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« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2012, 02:30:04 PM »

Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2012, 08:04:16 PM »

hard on
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« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2012, 08:13:54 PM »

hard on

Did you forget what you said 2 days ago, or is it just that funny to you?  police
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« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2012, 08:55:50 PM »

hard on

Did you forget what you said 2 days ago, or is it just that funny to you?  police

*snicker*
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« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2012, 09:12:01 PM »

  I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  

Depends.  If you're talking about liberal Protestants, replete with homosexual bishops/pastors, clown masses, etc... there's no end to the ridicule and scorn they deserve.  I'm not talking about a Fred Phelps-style smackdown, just good 'ol fashioned ridicule.  These people are idiots and a danger for being wolves posing as sheep!
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« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2012, 09:21:34 PM »

How much damage has Protestantism caused to the world? I expect to see a good response from augustin.
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« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2012, 09:28:22 PM »

  I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  

Depends.  If you're talking about liberal Protestants, replete with homosexual bishops/pastors, clown masses, etc...

You seem to have anti-Protestantism mixed up with anti-Catholicism.  Embarrassed You should make it a habit to keep them in two separate drawers. Smiley
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« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2012, 09:40:02 PM »

  I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  

Depends.  If you're talking about liberal Protestants, replete with homosexual bishops/pastors, clown masses, etc...

You seem to have anti-Protestantism mixed up with anti-Catholicism.  Embarrassed You should make it a habit to keep them in two separate drawers. :
clown masses are hardly a Roman Catholic phenomenon. The Episcopal Church is quite fond of them, along with their U2charists.
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« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2012, 10:09:05 PM »

How much damage has Protestantism caused to the world? I expect to see a good response from augustin.

Depends, if you believe Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and Capitalism then it's helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty and helped user in technology especially modern medical technology. That doesn't seem too bad to me but you may disagree with the premise.
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« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2012, 10:44:02 PM »

  I have at times been a little hard on other protestants and I feel like it has done more harm than good.  

Depends.  If you're talking about liberal Protestants, replete with homosexual bishops/pastors, clown masses, etc...

You seem to have anti-Protestantism mixed up with anti-Catholicism.  Embarrassed You should make it a habit to keep them in two separate drawers. :
clown masses are hardly a Roman Catholic phenomenon. The Episcopal Church is quite fond of them, along with their U2charists.

Alright, but my comment wasn't meant entirely seriously. It was a (weak) attempt to poke fun at those who constantly bring up Catholic "clown masses".
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« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2012, 11:35:43 PM »

How much damage has Protestantism caused to the world? I expect to see a good response from augustin.

Depends, if you believe Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and Capitalism then it's helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty and helped user in technology especially modern medical technology. That doesn't seem too bad to me but you may disagree with the premise.

Wouldn't this be just as true?" Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and collective bargaining (note the lack of caps so as not to elevate it to some sort of religious denomination) then it helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty.

Modern medical technology primarily comes from the taxpayers willing to fund research; making that technology generally available goes to the capitalists in my opinion.
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« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2012, 06:46:24 AM »

How much damage has Protestantism caused to the world? I expect to see a good response from augustin.

Depends, if you believe Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and Capitalism then it's helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty and helped user in technology especially modern medical technology. That doesn't seem too bad to me but you may disagree with the premise.

Wouldn't this be just as true?" Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and collective bargaining (note the lack of caps so as not to elevate it to some sort of religious denomination) then it helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty.

Modern medical technology primarily comes from the taxpayers willing to fund research; making that technology generally available goes to the capitalists in my opinion.

Collective bargaining/Unions are an important part of Capitalism, anyone that would tell you different is not a true Capitalist but a Corporatist. Where Free Market Capitalist types have problems with Unions is when they are Government sponsored and get special favors. The unions of the Industrial Revolution were extremely important.

Not sure I agree with the 2nd point there is a great profit incentive for Medical research whether it's subsidized or not.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:53:01 AM by Happy Lutheran » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2012, 07:48:12 AM »

How much damage has Protestantism caused to the world? I expect to see a good response from augustin.

Depends, if you believe Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and Capitalism then it's helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty and helped user in technology especially modern medical technology. That doesn't seem too bad to me but you may disagree with the premise.

Wouldn't this be just as true?" Protestantism helped usher in the enlightment era and collective bargaining (note the lack of caps so as not to elevate it to some sort of religious denomination) then it helped create modern Western society which has pulled billions of people out of poverty.

Modern medical technology primarily comes from the taxpayers willing to fund research; making that technology generally available goes to the capitalists in my opinion.

Collective bargaining/Unions are an important part of Capitalism, anyone that would tell you different is not a true Capitalist but a Corporatist. Where Free Market Capitalist types have problems with Unions is when they are Government sponsored and get special favors. The unions of the Industrial Revolution were extremely important.

Not sure I agree with the 2nd point there is a great profit incentive for Medical research whether it's subsidized or not.

If you hold that to be true, then as a logical consequence, cartels are an important part of Capitalism as well, because they afford sellers the ability to engage in "collective bargaining" with the buyers over the price of their goods. Yet in one case, the government convicts those who engage in collective bargaining as criminals, while in the other case, it encourages individuals to engage in collective bargaining over the price of their labor. Why is that? For the sake of consistency, perhaps we should make cartels legal, and abolish antitrust laws.
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« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2012, 08:01:11 AM »

I find it interesting (as well as disgusting) that one would be so stupid as to compare a cartel with a Union.  Unions do nothing other than ensure that their members are not put into slavery by their employers.  I cannot believe that there are still idiots among us today who wish to go back to the days of child workers, 16 hour days, payment in company currency, and forced purchase of all necessities from company stores.  Unions ended that and allowed workers to be treated as human beings and put a value on their labor.  Cartels are nothing other than a group of people who already have more money than God trying to find some way to squeeze even more money out of other people.
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« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2012, 08:02:32 AM »

Rather than quoting making the post too long if you want to discuss anti-trust you will be happy to know that Adam Smith, essentially the founder of Capitalism was for Anti-Trust laws and discusses such in 'The Wealth of Nations". Even Milton Friedman supported Anti-Trust.
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« Reply #97 on: May 18, 2012, 08:50:04 AM »

Capitalism, Shmapitalism.  Cartel, Shmartel.  Union.... umm.. Shmuinion???



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« Reply #98 on: May 18, 2012, 09:43:29 AM »

Back on topic, everybody. Thank you.
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« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2012, 10:37:15 AM »

I wouldn't either though. I say that they're catholic and protestant, which isn't the same thing. To me, Catholic is a proper name, just like Anglican and Lutheran are proper names. On the other hand, adjectives like catholic, protestant, apostolic, conservative, progressive etc can be applied to many different groups.

P.S. Also, I would call myself "orthodox" but not "Orthodox".
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« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2012, 11:55:53 AM »

I wouldn't either though. I say that they're catholic and protestant, which isn't the same thing. To me, Catholic is a proper name, just like Anglican and Lutheran are proper names. On the other hand, adjectives like catholic, protestant, apostolic, conservative, progressive etc can be applied to many different groups.

P.S. Also, I would call myself "orthodox" but not "Orthodox".

That might make you a progressive orthodox Catholic apostolicity Christian that because of your broad unique views may eventually be called a Protestant!  Smiley

Let the label makers figure that one out. 
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« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2012, 08:11:48 PM »

After almost 2 months, I am still friggin' unemployed, and it is becoming very draining.

However I thank God that I have found an ecumenical support ministry that offers both practical (leads, names, training) and spiritual support to 'people in transition', like myself.

So far the visible bodies of Faith are Roman Catholic and Protestant churches...where are the Orthodox?

There are many very caring and genuine Christian people who are outside our physical church, and whether their dogmatics are precise, their devotion to Christ is very genuine.
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« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2012, 10:17:47 PM »

Quote
There are many very caring and genuine Christian people who are outside our physical church, and whether their dogmatics are precise, their devotion to Christ is very genuine.

agreed
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« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2012, 10:35:48 PM »

After almost 2 months, I am still friggin' unemployed, and it is becoming very draining.

However I thank God that I have found an ecumenical support ministry that offers both practical (leads, names, training) and spiritual support to 'people in transition', like myself.

So far the visible bodies of Faith are Roman Catholic and Protestant churches...where are the Orthodox?

There are many very caring and genuine Christian people who are outside our physical church, and whether their dogmatics are precise, their devotion to Christ is very genuine.

Yes, I have always had a problem with the dichotomy between the Church that is "the keeper of the True Faith" and the churches that "Hear the Word of God and do it".
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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