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Author Topic: Without baptism, can you still be lead by the Holy Spirit?  (Read 596 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoyceV925
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« on: May 15, 2012, 09:39:24 AM »

(Mods: feel free to move this if there's a better place for this)

So here's something I've been thinking about that I'd be curious to get other thoughts on. I was not raised Christian, I wasn't raised any faith actually. I was never baptised. As a teen I felt compelled to find a connection to something spiritual. Throughout my adult life I'd felt something spiritually missing, Christianity always seemed this mystery that I wasn't a part of and didn't understand (my parents had strong feelings about "bible thumpers" so I had that baggage to deal with too) so I searched through pagansism, new agism, unitarian univeralism...whatever kind of struck my fancy, trying to find what "fit".

Now I've found the Orthodox church and it fills everything I was looking for. I really believe that something led me here. Something pushed me to not stop searching for God. At first I thought maybe I had a Guardian Angel. But when I asked my priest about that he said that I wouldn't have one until one is assigned when I am baptised.

So my ponderings are if I didn't know God, if I am not baptised, am without a guardian angel, if I have never been chrismated and touched by the Holy Spirit, how did my soul have a desire to look? If not the Holy Spirit, what would lead me? Who/what inspired/stirred me? What/who do you think lead you to Orthodoxy?

I've been told by my non-orthodox christian friends that even if I didn't know God, God knew me. Does God put little clues before us that we either see or ignore? I'd like to think that someone had a plan to get me here, that something had a hand in getting me to the church I now attend, to meet the wonderful people I have met, because I can't in any way imagine it was all coincidence or that I did it alone.

What do you think?
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Timon
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 09:53:09 AM »

I dont think its unreasonable to assume that the Holy Spirit led you here.  I think that God desires salvation for everyone, and he provided a path for you to come to the Church.  You, in your own free will, chose to follow where that led you and now here you are. 

Thats kind of a simple, cheesy, sunday school answer, but I dont think its unreasonable.  To suggest that God doesnt or cant work in peoples lives just because they dont yet know him seems a little silly to me.
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 12:42:52 PM »

I dont think its unreasonable to assume that the Holy Spirit led you here.  I think that God desires salvation for everyone, and he provided a path for you to come to the Church.  You, in your own free will, chose to follow where that led you and now here you are. 

Thats kind of a simple, cheesy, sunday school answer, but I dont think its unreasonable.  To suggest that God doesnt or cant work in peoples lives just because they dont yet know him seems a little silly to me.
Nothing cheesy about it at all, dear friend. In St Basil's Prayer of Preparation before Holy Communion we have: "Thou dost not desire, O Master, to destroy the works of thy hands or that they should perish, but willest that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth."

To the OP: Maybe others need to correct me, but what your priest said about a guardian angel doesn't seem quite right to me. Matthew 18:10-11 (NKJV) “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost."
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witega
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 01:01:46 PM »

I presume you've been skipping over the predestination threads as uninteresting to you, but we've actually touched on this point in several of them recently.

The Holy Spirit, who is "everywhere present and fillest all things" is always near to every human being, offering the Grace that will allow us to turn and seek God if we will only choose to avail ourselves of it. As fallen creatures, we cannot even turn to God except He gives us the Grace to exercise our free will. So yes, it is definitely within the scope of Orthodox teaching to understand that the Holy Spirit has guided every step of your way on your path to the Church.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 01:20:47 PM »

It is true that we only receive our guardian angel at baptism.  It is also true that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, man's regeneration, sanctificaiton, and deification, occurs only through baptism.  Nevertheless, as witega pointed out, the Holy Spirit is "everywhere present and fillest all things." 

The Lord said to the apostles prior to Pentecost that the Spirit was with them but will be in them, making the distinction between the activity of the Holy Spirit in relation to man before vs. after Pentecost or baptism.   

Quote
John 14:15-17

"If you love Me, keep d My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
     

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 01:21:25 PM by jah777 » Logged
HabteSelassie
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 01:35:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 10

Simple answer, yes.  As we see even in the Scriptures at several places, the Holy Spirit was received by many before Baptism. However there are certain benefits of the Holy Spirit which are restricted to the Body of Christ through Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion.  Further, while before Baptism both in the Old Testament and also the Church era the Holy Spirit was a unique gift from God to a select few, through Baptism the Holy Spirit is given to ALL Christians thereafter, universally because of the Universal Church.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 01:40:54 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 02:16:06 PM »

no reason why a person can't receive a "foretaste" of the Holy Spirit...leading one to the true faith and baptism in Christ!  angel
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mabsoota
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 03:29:48 PM »

try reading romans chapters 1 to 5.
we are all lead to God by the beauty of creation and by our conscience, that is there because we are all made in the image of God.
also read psalm 8 and psalm 18 (psalm 19 in most 'protestant' Bibles that use the massoretic text for the old testament).

but in addition to that, God does directly guide people sometimes. if u pray sincerely 'God, whoever you are, please show me the way', then He will.
may He continue to do so, and please keep posting here  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 03:47:43 PM »

The Holy Spirit can, and does, lead those that are not Christian and are unbaptised.  He FILLS those that are Christian and Baptised.
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 07:56:06 PM »

The Holy Spirit leads everyone to Christ, just not everyone listens and follows, and no one makes it to Christ without listening to and following the Holy Spirit.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 10:08:37 AM »

Yes you can be led by the Holy Spirit but as an occassional visitor, a guide. Once you are chrismated however you have the gift of the Holy Spirit that abides (lives) within you.

Thomas
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 10:34:13 AM »

The Holy Spirit can, and does, lead those that are not Christian and are unbaptised.  He FILLS those that are Christian and Baptized.

He FILLS all things, including trees.

Anyway: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (John 3:8 ).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 10:34:21 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Azul
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 11:49:25 AM »

(Mods: feel free to move this if there's a better place for this)

So here's something I've been thinking about that I'd be curious to get other thoughts on. I was not raised Christian, I wasn't raised any faith actually. I was never baptised. As a teen I felt compelled to find a connection to something spiritual. Throughout my adult life I'd felt something spiritually missing, Christianity always seemed this mystery that I wasn't a part of and didn't understand (my parents had strong feelings about "bible thumpers" so I had that baggage to deal with too) so I searched through pagansism, new agism, unitarian univeralism...whatever kind of struck my fancy, trying to find what "fit".

Now I've found the Orthodox church and it fills everything I was looking for. I really believe that something led me here. Something pushed me to not stop searching for God. At first I thought maybe I had a Guardian Angel. But when I asked my priest about that he said that I wouldn't have one until one is assigned when I am baptised.

So my ponderings are if I didn't know God, if I am not baptised, am without a guardian angel, if I have never been chrismated and touched by the Holy Spirit, how did my soul have a desire to look? If not the Holy Spirit, what would lead me? Who/what inspired/stirred me? What/who do you think lead you to Orthodoxy?

I've been told by my non-orthodox christian friends that even if I didn't know God, God knew me. Does God put little clues before us that we either see or ignore? I'd like to think that someone had a plan to get me here, that something had a hand in getting me to the church I now attend, to meet the wonderful people I have met, because I can't in any way imagine it was all coincidence or that I did it alone.

What do you think?


I think God led you... The Holy Spirit or whatever.. Call it how you like... The Bible supports Holy Spirit guidance and indwelling even before Baptism, there are various examples in the Book of Acts.. If you feel that you are in the right place spiritually than God led you, even the Holy Spirit... God is the only one that knows hearts and can move hearts and can make a heart feel at home or direct it towards its home.. the coming home of the heart is priceless... There are Orthodox who say everyone has a guardian angel or is given a guardian angel ...
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