Author Topic: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)  (Read 5558 times)

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Offline Wyatt

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2012, 01:38:48 PM »
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.
Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:39:29 PM by Wyatt »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2012, 01:47:01 PM »
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.
Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.
Was your uncle trying to sell him an indulgence?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html
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Offline J Michael

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2012, 03:14:01 PM »
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

Guess so.  It happens.  :(
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Online Volnutt

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2016, 07:48:17 PM »
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 07:52:48 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2016, 08:04:49 PM »
In the line of what Vollnutt has posted and quoting from the vatican link posted above:

Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

Sooo... what exactly does that mean? If a sin has already been forgiven, why are indulgences necessary?
If you go to Confession and take the Eucharist with integrity and that avoids eternal punishment, how can some "temporal punishment" remain? How is it possible that our repentance spares us from a bigger condemnation (eternal punishment) but not a smaller one (temporal punishment)?
Doesn't the blood of our Lord clean us from all sin? (1st John 1:7)?
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2016, 08:06:13 PM »
i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

Wait... they give certificates? Like in college?
I thought we were becoming sons of God, not his graduates. Not his business pals.
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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2016, 11:37:49 PM »
In the line of what Vollnutt has posted and quoting from the vatican link posted above:

Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

Sooo... what exactly does that mean? If a sin has already been forgiven, why are indulgences necessary?
If you go to Confession and take the Eucharist with integrity and that avoids eternal punishment, how can some "temporal punishment" remain? How is it possible that our repentance spares us from a bigger condemnation (eternal punishment) but not a smaller one (temporal punishment)?
Doesn't the blood of our Lord clean us from all sin? (1st John 1:7)?

In the link it's defined as the "unhealthy attachment to creatures" that's left over from the very nature of sin. I suppose it's the logical side effect from saying that one does not have to be perfect in order to be saved by God. So, I can see how one would want to conclude that this purification process continues into the next life, even if I'm not sure that it necessarily follows logically.

But why should this purifying process be something that can be alleviated by indulgences? I didn't know the grace of God could be fast tracked. Or if it is considered a gift of God as per the link, why would a faithful Christian want to alleviate/fast track it?
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2016, 10:24:26 AM »
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.

That's the problem with trying to equate certificates of absolution with indulgences. Indulgences clearly do not involve the absolution of sins, so despite the fact that those selling the certificates (wrongly) justified the practice by pointing to the indulgences of the Latins, it's not entirely clear that they understood the framework behind indulgences.
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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2016, 12:27:24 PM »
I guess this thread isn't too old to be dug up. It was either this or begin one from scratch.

So, assuming the article in the OP is accurate, what sort of theology could possibly underscore an idea of "Orthodox indulgences?"

From the Vatican's online catechism (emphasis mine):

Quote
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

Does Orthodoxy draw these kinds of distinctions? I know St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite kind of does, but in the text I've seen he makes little in the way of elaboration. The text that is quoted in the article speaks only of "forgiveness of sins," not of remitting temporal punishment after eternal punishment has already been forgiven.

Outside of this kind of finely parsed context, the idea of indulgences doesn't seem coherent.

That's the problem with trying to equate certificates of absolution with indulgences. Indulgences clearly do not involve the absolution of sins, so despite the fact that those selling the certificates (wrongly) justified the practice by pointing to the indulgences of the Latins, it's not entirely clear that they understood the framework behind indulgences.

Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting. I don't see anything in Orthodox theology that really looks like that framework.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:27:53 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2016, 11:24:28 PM »
How did they get the funds to build St. Peter's basilica?