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Author Topic: When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)  (Read 2106 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 14, 2012, 09:45:45 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 10:31:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 01:05:42 PM »

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 01:23:07 PM »

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 02:49:01 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 02:51:33 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

Russians?  Propaganda???  Is OUTRAGE!  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.
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J Michael
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 04:29:30 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 05:17:48 PM »


The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.

Perish the thought!!... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 05:50:59 PM »

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."
The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 06:02:09 PM »

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?



Because what Luther taught was that simony was a sin, NOT indulgences.

But yoo gnu that....right?
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 07:37:27 PM »

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 07:43:18 PM »

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.

You are not getting it.  If Luther says that Catholic teaching is sin...well!...then he must be right in any event....

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 08:01:52 PM »

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

I also got that vibe from the article.

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 08:24:47 PM »

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

So you only listen to Lutheran propaganda?

 Grin
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 08:57:36 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 09:08:45 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 09:19:31 PM »

Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 09:38:10 PM »

Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.

I'd say that the OP is quite worthwhile to discuss if the article linked in it is reliable.
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 09:46:52 PM »

There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 10:40:12 AM »

There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.

Which would those be?
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 10:42:02 AM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 11:38:26 AM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 11:42:52 AM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2012, 11:59:19 AM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  Grin

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 12:02:39 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  Grin

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 12:12:15 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  Grin

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!! 

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 12:20:52 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  Sad.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 12:23:15 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  Grin

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!!  

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy

Do I think??  I try to avoid it at all costs--it's almost always painful and usually lands me in the pig pen (or worse!)  Grin.


Luvs bak atcha


C.B.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:29:08 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 12:32:34 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  Sad.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 12:36:09 PM »

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 12:45:49 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  Grin

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 Cool

Your imagination is much too vivid.  Cool

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  Sad.

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.

No, PeterJ, no offense taken at all.  Cheer up, this could go anywhere at all, or nowhere at all.  Probably best that it go nowhere at all.

It really is all too easy in a context such as this to misconstrue what others say, to read things into them that aren't there, to imagine something that ends up being just that--an imagination, and to take seriously something that was meant humorously.  That's why the admin has provided us with the emoticons, which some here (not necessarily you, at all) fail to use, thinking that their words on the screen should be enough for anybody--and sometimes they're more than enough for anybody  Wink Wink.

Also, taking things out of context and commenting on them, reading meaning that wasn't meant into them can get any of us into trouble with others.

So, having "thought" about this waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too much, the pain in my brain is excruciating and we'll all be far better off if I just go back to my yummy salad now  angel angel.
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 12:54:28 PM »

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 01:25:52 PM »

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 01:46:37 PM »

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?
http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/

That's very blurry.  Any way to have it be more clear?  Or another source?  (this is for me personally, not as a moderator). 
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 01:48:19 PM »

Well, I do not know in English, but most references I came across with were in Romanian.
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 01:48:56 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 01:50:43 PM »

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2012, 01:54:49 PM »

I also remember that the Patriarch of Jerusalem was in some sort of a tour at the beginning of the 18th century through Wallachia and Moldova (perhaps Russia too?) selling absolution papers in order to raise funds for the patriarchate.
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2012, 02:09:20 PM »

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood  Wink

A bit weak, if you ask me -- but then, I'm not a bit fan of trolling in general, so ...
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2012, 02:35:35 PM »

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2012, 05:00:08 PM »

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 

i know because i started one of them Smiley perhaps that is even more scary Wink
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

I'm not sure I want to take the time to read an old thread on the subject; but I am a bit curious what your opinion is on the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the article in the OP.
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« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.
Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

So too all those donation requests with promises of heaven, mass intentions, etc. attached....
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Tags: indulgences  cash for gold  heresy augustin hinders Herman again! 
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