When the Church Sold Indulgences (16th - 18th centuries)

[Luckster]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Wyatt]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

[J Michael]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.

[Shanghaiski]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

[J Michael]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

Russians?  Propaganda???  Is OUTRAGE! 

[Clemente]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

[J Michael]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.

[elijahmaria]

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.

Perish the thought!!...

[Punch]

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

The amazing thing is that the Vatican still issues indulgences, the main impetus for the Protestant Reformation. These will evidently get you out of a place, purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not believe exists.

They are granted, as spiritual aids, not "issued".  They are also not sold--to do so is and was the sin of simony, if I'm not mistaken.  They don't get you out of Purgatory, and Purgatory is not a place.

The other "amazing thing" is how much people misunderstand indulgences.  There are multiple threads on this board about them, and a wealth of information on numerous Catholic websites and in numerous books about them for anyone who would like to better educate themselves.

[elijahmaria]

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

Because what Luther taught was that simony was a sin, NOT indulgences.

But yoo gnu that....right?

[Melodist]

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.

[elijahmaria]

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

We're not Luther's disciples. Not justifying or supporting the RC practice of selling indulgences, just saying Luther isn't a part of our Tradition.

You are not getting it.  If Luther says that Catholic teaching is sin...well!...then he must be right in any event....

[akimori makoto]

Indulgences have long been associated with the Vatican and the Protestant Reformation. How many in the Church would realize that She also partook in the sale between the 16th and 18th centuries? In fact, it wasn't until 1838 that it was actually condemned. History notes that the sales of "Absolute Certificates" was due to "Latin propaganda".

Article Link

Maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem that these were "sold." Also, the Roman medieval practice had to do with purgatory, IIRC.

Anyway, given the source, it just seems like more Russian propaganda along the lines of "The Greeks gave us the true faith, and then promptly forgot it."

I also got that vibe from the article.

Woe to us who lack the nabedrennik!

[Peter J]

Why would we read Roman Catholic propaganda justifying what Luther has already taught us is a sin?

So you only listen to Lutheran propaganda?

 

[Punch]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

[elijahmaria]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

[Aindriú]

Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.

[Peter J]

Pinned for hope of actual discussion of OP.

I'd say that the OP is quite worthwhile to discuss if the article linked in it is reliable.

[Aindriú]

There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.

[J Michael]

There are many points I find interesting, and they all revolve around the culture of the Orthodox church, which are consistently blamed on Latin influence and therefore apologetically excused for being ejected from Orthodoxy.

Which would those be?

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

[Peter J]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch. 

[elijahmaria]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch. 

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch. 

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

[Peter J]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

[elijahmaria]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch. 

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!! 

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  .

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling?  

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid.  

The only thing I'm "waiting for" is lunch.  

Well if you have your hook baited properly you prolly won't need to wait too long!!

Happy Trolling!!

Lucy

LOL!!


Charlie Brown

What a magnificent obsession!!  

Do you think?

I think...as little as possible!!

Luvs

Lucy

Do I think??  I try to avoid it at all costs--it's almost always painful and usually lands me in the pig pen (or worse!)  .


Luvs bak atcha


C.B.

[Peter J]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  .

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.

[augustin717]

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

[J Michael]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Hmmm.....Fishing/baiting/trolling? 

I imagine you're waiting for someone to ask "How so?"

I'm going to pass, but perhaps another poster(s) will oblige you.

 

Your imagination is much too vivid. 

Is it? I imagined that you follow "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Most people would take that as a compliment.)

That's funny--I didn't read that in your post.  I do attempt to live by that, failing miserably sometimes, but I never "imagined"  that that was what you were talking about.  So much for trying to "read", let alone understand, the imagination of others  .

That which I *was* waiting for has arrived, so perhaps now I can wait for that which you imagined, incorrectly, that I was waiting for.  On second thought, I really have far better things to wait for than for "someone to ask 'How so?'".

I'm not sure if I've done something to offend you, or what exactly, but after reading your last post, I'm not very optimistic about where this is going. But in any case, I too will be off-line for a while.

No, PeterJ, no offense taken at all.  Cheer up, this could go anywhere at all, or nowhere at all.  Probably best that it go nowhere at all.

It really is all too easy in a context such as this to misconstrue what others say, to read things into them that aren't there, to imagine something that ends up being just that--an imagination, and to take seriously something that was meant humorously.  That's why the admin has provided us with the emoticons, which some here (not necessarily you, at all) fail to use, thinking that their words on the screen should be enough for anybody--and sometimes they're more than enough for anybody  .

Also, taking things out of context and commenting on them, reading meaning that wasn't meant into them can get any of us into trouble with others.

So, having "thought" about this waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too much, the pain in my brain is excruciating and we'll all be far better off if I just go back to my yummy salad now  .

[serb1389]

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?

[augustin717]

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?

http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/

[serb1389]

The Patriarchate of Alexandria at least used to sell indulgences. When i was in school we translated one for fun with a mildly anti-clerical lecturer.

would you have a source to this?

http://www.criticatac.ro/1168/originile-ortodoxe-ale-libertarianismului/gherasim/

That's very blurry.  Any way to have it be more clear?  Or another source?  (this is for me personally, not as a moderator). 

[augustin717]

Well, I do not know in English, but most references I came across with were in Romanian.

[Punch]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood 

[Ortho_cat]

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

[augustin717]

I also remember that the Patriarch of Jerusalem was in some sort of a tour at the beginning of the 18th century through Wallachia and Moldova (perhaps Russia too?) selling absolution papers in order to raise funds for the patriarchate.

[Peter J]

Set hook. Reel them in.  You guys are easy.

Brat!!

Guilty!  I can get a bit feisty when I am in a rare good mood 

A bit weak, if you ask me -- but then, I'm not a bit fan of trolling in general, so ...

[serb1389]

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 

[Ortho_cat]

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

the fact that you know this offhand is supremely scary. 

i know because i started one of them perhaps that is even more scary

[Peter J]

i would search the forum for absolution certificates. we have had several threads on these.

I'm not sure I want to take the time to read an old thread on the subject; but I am a bit curious what your opinion is on the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the article in the OP.

[ialmisry]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.

Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

So too all those donation requests with promises of heaven, mass intentions, etc. attached....

[Wyatt]

Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.

[ialmisry]

Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

Ahh....another unprovable anecdote. I'd begun to think those were gone with Fr. Ambrose. Apparently not.

BTW...an Eastern Orthodox priest killed my uncle. Just sayin'.

Was your uncle trying to sell him an indulgence?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html

[J Michael]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn I read that the selling of indulgences was condemned at the Council of Trent.

You did.

Those running the school I went to and who told us "give a dollar and buy your way into heaven" must have missed that.

Guess so.  It happens. 

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