Topic: Polygamist converts

[yeshuaisiam]

I was discussing polygamy the other day with a relative of mine and a question popped in my head and I was wondering if anybody has knowledge on how the EO church would handle the following situation.

Normally as far as I understand and have witnessed, when a husband and wife convert into Orthodoxy, their marriage is often recognized.   For instance, if somebody was a Southern Baptist and was married for 20 years, then both husband and wife became Orthodox, the church would recognize the matrimony.

What about in the instance of polygamy?   If a man was married quickly in another faith to let's say 3 women.   They have all been married for 20 years and all the wives have children with their husband.   After a lot of research and soul searching, they all came to the conclusion that they wanted to join the Eastern Orthodox church.

They begin to attend liturgy together....

How would a priest/bishop handle something like this.

I believe there is a canon (I don't know which one) that condemns polygamy, but the scriptures never did (other than for bishops).  Is there a canon/rule on converts from polygamy that have been married, have children, and have thrived as a family for decades?

Thanks you and God Bless.

[Shanghaiski]

I was discussing polygamy the other day with a relative of mine and a question popped in my head and I was wondering if anybody has knowledge on how the EO church would handle the following situation.

Normally as far as I understand and have witnessed, when a husband and wife convert into Orthodoxy, their marriage is often recognized.   For instance, if somebody was a Southern Baptist and was married for 20 years, then both husband and wife became Orthodox, the church would recognize the matrimony.

What about in the instance of polygamy?   If a man was married quickly in another faith to let's say 3 women.   They have all been married for 20 years and all the wives have children with their husband.   After a lot of research and soul searching, they all came to the conclusion that they wanted to join the Eastern Orthodox church.

They begin to attend liturgy together....

How would a priest/bishop handle something like this.

I believe there is a canon (I don't know which one) that condemns polygamy, but the scriptures never did (other than for bishops).  Is there a canon/rule on converts from polygamy that have been married, have children, and have thrived as a family for decades?

Thanks you and God Bless.

If a married couple converts, their marriage should be blessed in church.

In the practice of the early missions in Alaska, where the above was also done, polygamous converts were made to pick one wife to be a wife, and the others were to be treated like sisters, since to eject them would be to cut them off from material support. One would hope, just like with people coming in from other lifestyles antithetical to Orthodoxy, that their soul-searching would be deep enough to handle this.

[mike]

See St. Vladimir.

[Sauron]

The man picks whichever wife is the hottest and stays married to her.

OR

Since polygamy is not allowed, it can be ruled that he was never married to any of them and then he can find a new hot babe and she can be his first real wive.

[orthonorm]

Any precedent for polyandry? Outside of monasteries that is.

[Shanghaiski]

Any precedent for polyandry? Outside of monasteries that is.

Apart from that one mission to the tribe of fierce Amazonian warrior women...

[JamesR]

I have a question. I know that the Church condemns us from marrying non-Christians like Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Pagans etc, and that the Church would not marry one of its members to a non-Christian. So, what if, hypothetically, an Orthodox man who was perfectly aware of the Church's stance on this topic got married to a non-Christian girl in a US Court by a Judge, and then later the couple had children. Would the Orthodox Church recognize their marriage as valid and what type of punishment would they give the man?

[Shanghaiski]

I have a question. I know that the Church condemns us from marrying non-Christians like Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Pagans etc, and that the Church would not marry one of its members to a non-Christian. So, what if, hypothetically, an Orthodox man who was perfectly aware of the Church's stance on this topic got married to a non-Christian girl in a US Court by a Judge, and then later the couple had children. Would the Orthodox Church recognize their marriage as valid and what type of punishment would they give the man?

What do you mean by valid?

The only marriage the Church "recognizes" is that done in church. The penance given to the Orthodox person would depend on the spiritual father's judgment--this all assumes the Orthodox person, who flouted the rules, even wants to be in the Church. If later he brings his children for baptism it presents a quandry. It's not the children's fault, but will they ever be seen in church again?

[JamesR]

I have a question. I know that the Church condemns us from marrying non-Christians like Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Pagans etc, and that the Church would not marry one of its members to a non-Christian. So, what if, hypothetically, an Orthodox man who was perfectly aware of the Church's stance on this topic got married to a non-Christian girl in a US Court by a Judge, and then later the couple had children. Would the Orthodox Church recognize their marriage as valid and what type of punishment would they give the man?

What do you mean by valid?

The only marriage the Church "recognizes" is that done in church. The penance given to the Orthodox person would depend on the spiritual father's judgment--this all assumes the Orthodox person, who flouted the rules, even wants to be in the Church. If later he brings his children for baptism it presents a quandry. It's not the children's fault, but will they ever be seen in church again?

By 'valid' I mean would he be considered an adulteror/fornicator? And would the Church allow them to continue living together as man and wife since they are at least legally married or would they urge them to separate?

And what if the couple divided the children. Say, the female children were raised under the mother's religion and the male children under the father's religion. And say that the man still does love the Church and wants to remain a part of it even though he willingly broke the rules, could he be exocommunicated or anathematized?

[Shanghaiski]

I have a question. I know that the Church condemns us from marrying non-Christians like Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Pagans etc, and that the Church would not marry one of its members to a non-Christian. So, what if, hypothetically, an Orthodox man who was perfectly aware of the Church's stance on this topic got married to a non-Christian girl in a US Court by a Judge, and then later the couple had children. Would the Orthodox Church recognize their marriage as valid and what type of punishment would they give the man?

What do you mean by valid?

The only marriage the Church "recognizes" is that done in church. The penance given to the Orthodox person would depend on the spiritual father's judgment--this all assumes the Orthodox person, who flouted the rules, even wants to be in the Church. If later he brings his children for baptism it presents a quandry. It's not the children's fault, but will they ever be seen in church again?

By 'valid' I mean would he be considered an adulteror/fornicator? And would the Church allow them to continue living together as man and wife since they are at least legally married or would they urge them to separate?

And what if the couple divided the children. Say, the female children were raised under the mother's religion and the male children under the father's religion. And say that the man still does love the Church and wants to remain a part of it even though he willingly broke the rules, could he be exocommunicated or anathematized?

Well, unlike some groups, the Orthodox do not have a blanket solution to every mess. If the Orthodox spouse willfully sins, but repents, it will be dealt with through confession. There may be a penance. We don't pin red A's to anyone. The marriage isn't blessed sacramentally, but the spouse lives up to the ideals of marriage, repents of the sin, and does the best he or she can do, that's all that matters, I think.

As for splitting the children, this is frowned on. If there's a mixed marriage, the children should be raised Orthodox. However, since the rules were flouted in the first case, one does what one can. Say the spouse repents, it would be hoped that he or she has the sense to see that his or her family's spiritual situation is grave. He or she needs counsel from the spiritual father.

Excommunication is a penance. It is not damnation. The person is denied communion for a time, for the sake of repentance, to know the gravity of the sin. Anathemas are for heretics. There may be excommunication, depending on the spiritual father.

[Sauron]

I have a question. I know that the Church condemns us from marrying non-Christians like Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Pagans etc, and that the Church would not marry one of its members to a non-Christian. So, what if, hypothetically, an Orthodox man who was perfectly aware of the Church's stance on this topic got married to a non-Christian girl in a US Court by a Judge, and then later the couple had children. Would the Orthodox Church recognize their marriage as valid and what type of punishment would they give the man?

What do you mean by valid?

The only marriage the Church "recognizes" is that done in church. The penance given to the Orthodox person would depend on the spiritual father's judgment--this all assumes the Orthodox person, who flouted the rules, even wants to be in the Church. If later he brings his children for baptism it presents a quandry. It's not the children's fault, but will they ever be seen in church again?

I am a convert married to a non-Orthodox. My children are baptized Orthodox and are seen in church weekly. (although we do not go to church in order to be seen)

[yeshuaisiam]

I was discussing polygamy the other day with a relative of mine and a question popped in my head and I was wondering if anybody has knowledge on how the EO church would handle the following situation.

Normally as far as I understand and have witnessed, when a husband and wife convert into Orthodoxy, their marriage is often recognized.   For instance, if somebody was a Southern Baptist and was married for 20 years, then both husband and wife became Orthodox, the church would recognize the matrimony.

What about in the instance of polygamy?   If a man was married quickly in another faith to let's say 3 women.   They have all been married for 20 years and all the wives have children with their husband.   After a lot of research and soul searching, they all came to the conclusion that they wanted to join the Eastern Orthodox church.

They begin to attend liturgy together....

How would a priest/bishop handle something like this.

I believe there is a canon (I don't know which one) that condemns polygamy, but the scriptures never did (other than for bishops).  Is there a canon/rule on converts from polygamy that have been married, have children, and have thrived as a family for decades?

Thanks you and God Bless.

If a married couple converts, their marriage should be blessed in church.

In the practice of the early missions in Alaska, where the above was also done, polygamous converts were made to pick one wife to be a wife, and the others were to be treated like sisters, since to eject them would be to cut them off from material support. One would hope, just like with people coming in from other lifestyles antithetical to Orthodoxy, that their soul-searching would be deep enough to handle this.

That could get really sticky if they had 20 children or so.  Would be a rough situation for sure.
I take it from that moment if he had relations with the other women that were formally his wives, it would be adultery?   
Also if those "sisters" married another man would they be considered adulteresses?

I have to admit, I'd love to over hear the conversation between a priest and a bishop if the situation ever manifested itself just out of sheer curiosity.

[yeshuaisiam]

Any precedent for polyandry? Outside of monasteries that is.

I can't imagine this happening.  I have not heard of those considering themselves Christian, Muslim, or Jew every practicing Polyandry and it being accepted.    This is because the man is honored as the head of women in these faiths.     I suppose it could be hypothetically possible, but extremely unlikely.   

Historically polygamy (not polyandry) was permitted and with the "male seed".   When a man has 3 wives, and 2 are pregnant, you know who the mother and father are.   If a woman has 3 husbands, and is pregnant, you don't know who the mother or father are.  (I can't remember for the life of me what book that was in, so please excuse, perhaps somebody else could enlighten)

Now for a Mormon offshoot group "family" to come into Orthodoxy, I could see it as possible.

[primuspilus]

In the United States, only one marriage is legal. For Mormons who practice polygamy, the other "wives" are married to their husbands only within the church. Legally, the marriage has no binding. So I would assume that the Church would recognize the legal wife.

PP

[Shanghaiski]

I was discussing polygamy the other day with a relative of mine and a question popped in my head and I was wondering if anybody has knowledge on how the EO church would handle the following situation.

Normally as far as I understand and have witnessed, when a husband and wife convert into Orthodoxy, their marriage is often recognized.   For instance, if somebody was a Southern Baptist and was married for 20 years, then both husband and wife became Orthodox, the church would recognize the matrimony.

What about in the instance of polygamy?   If a man was married quickly in another faith to let's say 3 women.   They have all been married for 20 years and all the wives have children with their husband.   After a lot of research and soul searching, they all came to the conclusion that they wanted to join the Eastern Orthodox church.

They begin to attend liturgy together....

How would a priest/bishop handle something like this.

I believe there is a canon (I don't know which one) that condemns polygamy, but the scriptures never did (other than for bishops).  Is there a canon/rule on converts from polygamy that have been married, have children, and have thrived as a family for decades?

Thanks you and God Bless.

If a married couple converts, their marriage should be blessed in church.

In the practice of the early missions in Alaska, where the above was also done, polygamous converts were made to pick one wife to be a wife, and the others were to be treated like sisters, since to eject them would be to cut them off from material support. One would hope, just like with people coming in from other lifestyles antithetical to Orthodoxy, that their soul-searching would be deep enough to handle this.

That could get really sticky if they had 20 children or so.  Would be a rough situation for sure.
I take it from that moment if he had relations with the other women that were formally his wives, it would be adultery?   
Also if those "sisters" married another man would they be considered adulteresses?

I have to admit, I'd love to over hear the conversation between a priest and a bishop if the situation ever manifested itself just out of sheer curiosity.

Well, by the time we have actual clergy serving in Alaska, most of the native population in Russian-controlled areas was Orthodox already, so I don't imagine we'd have very many written accounts. Russian men married native women in those cases, so the number of polygamist converts was few in the Aleutians. On the Yukon, it could be a different story. I'm not certain that the practice of polygamy was widespread in Alaska. My guess is that it would be something only for the rich and powerful. The same in Siberia. Since missions amongst natives in Siberia and Alaska tended to work top-down, through the rich and powerful, my guess would be that it would go something like this:

Polygamist chief entertains lay or clergy missionaries. They teach his son. Chief may not be baptized, but young son is. Son enters the new culture of Russian-Native Orthodoxy. Polygamy ceases with the end of the old generation. Moot point.

[yeshuaisiam]

In the United States, only one marriage is legal. For Mormons who practice polygamy, the other "wives" are married to their husbands only within the church. Legally, the marriage has no binding. So I would assume that the Church would recognize the legal wife.

PP

I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that I saw a documentary on a Mormon sect.  They never went to the state for any marriage they had and just completely left the state out of it.   They just married every wife in the church.

LOL, "draw straws".     I would hope something could be worked out.  Of course, this is all hypothetical anyway.  I doubt many Mormon types would really even attempt to seek out Orthodoxy if it meant they'd be dissolved out...

On a personal note, I can't imagine their honey-do list.  3 wives = 3 honey-do lists.   WOW.

[LBK]

On a personal note, I can't imagine their honey-do list.  3 wives = 3 honey-do lists.   WOW.

EXCELLENT point!! 

[Rufus]

Any precedent for polyandry? Outside of monasteries that is.

I can't imagine this happening.  I have not heard of those considering themselves Christian, Muslim, or Jew every practicing Polyandry and it being accepted.    This is because the man is honored as the head of women in these faiths.     I suppose it could be hypothetically possible, but extremely unlikely.   

Historically polygamy (not polyandry) was permitted and with the "male seed".   When a man has 3 wives, and 2 are pregnant, you know who the mother and father are.   If a woman has 3 husbands, and is pregnant, you don't know who the mother or father are.  (I can't remember for the life of me what book that was in, so please excuse, perhaps somebody else could enlighten)

Now for a Mormon offshoot group "family" to come into Orthodoxy, I could see it as possible.

Polyandry would also be an incredibly inefficient way to reproduce, since women are the limiting agent in reproduction.

[JamesR]

I know that this is a really odd, semi-inappropriate question. But Judaism allowed polygamy during the time of the Old Testament correct? Did this mean that Jews were allowed to have three-ways and wives sleeping with each other was permitted?

[Shanghaiski]

In the United States, only one marriage is legal. For Mormons who practice polygamy, the other "wives" are married to their husbands only within the church. Legally, the marriage has no binding. So I would assume that the Church would recognize the legal wife.

PP

The Church, officially, doesn't "recognize" any legal marriage, but only the sacramental marriages--and, technically, those are only the ones blessed in the Orthodox Church.

[Shanghaiski]

I know that this is a really odd, semi-inappropriate question. But Judaism allowed polygamy during the time of the Old Testament correct? Did this mean that Jews were allowed to have three-ways and wives sleeping with each other was permitted?

No. Sexual deviance was punishable by death. In the canons of the Church, deviance in marriage carries penances harsher than that outside of marriage.

[yeshuaisiam]

I know that this is a really odd, semi-inappropriate question. But Judaism allowed polygamy during the time of the Old Testament correct? Did this mean that Jews were allowed to have three-ways and wives sleeping with each other was permitted?

Yes Jews and even some early Christians engaged in polygamy (before it was condemned).  AKA, the man was married to more than one woman.  But women would not lay with women, as it was an abomination.  It was never about that.   It was more for fertility reasons.  I would only guess that it would have been similar as Mormons do it today.  The man visits wife 1 for a couple nights, moves on to wife 2, then to 3.

I can't cite or find the exact spot/canon where it was condemned in Orthodoxy though.   

[Shanghaiski]

It seems to me polygamy was very rare in Judaism. Are there records of it in Scripture past Solomon--probably the biggest argument against polygamy?

[ZealousZeal]

Any precedent for polyandry? Outside of monasteries that is.

I can't imagine this happening.  I have not heard of those considering themselves Christian, Muslim, or Jew every practicing Polyandry and it being accepted.    This is because the man is honored as the head of women in these faiths.     I suppose it could be hypothetically possible, but extremely unlikely.   

Historically polygamy (not polyandry) was permitted and with the "male seed".   When a man has 3 wives, and 2 are pregnant, you know who the mother and father are.   If a woman has 3 husbands, and is pregnant, you don't know who the mother or father are.  (I can't remember for the life of me what book that was in, so please excuse, perhaps somebody else could enlighten)

Now for a Mormon offshoot group "family" to come into Orthodoxy, I could see it as possible.

I'm pretty sure you'd know who the mother is  , just not the father. It wouldn't be a big deal to know who the father was in a matrilineal society (anthropologically speaking).

[JamesR]

I know that this is a really odd, semi-inappropriate question. But Judaism allowed polygamy during the time of the Old Testament correct? Did this mean that Jews were allowed to have three-ways and wives sleeping with each other was permitted?

Yes Jews and even some early Christians engaged in polygamy (before it was condemned).  AKA, the man was married to more than one woman.  But women would not lay with women, as it was an abomination.  It was never about that.   It was more for fertility reasons.  I would only guess that it would have been similar as Mormons do it today.  The man visits wife 1 for a couple nights, moves on to wife 2, then to 3.

I can't cite or find the exact spot/canon where it was condemned in Orthodoxy though.   

The first Orthodox crackdown on polygamy came from St. Paul when he required that clergy could only have one spouse. I assume that the entire condemnation of polygamy gradually came later.

[Shanghaiski]

I know that this is a really odd, semi-inappropriate question. But Judaism allowed polygamy during the time of the Old Testament correct? Did this mean that Jews were allowed to have three-ways and wives sleeping with each other was permitted?

Yes Jews and even some early Christians engaged in polygamy (before it was condemned).  AKA, the man was married to more than one woman.  But women would not lay with women, as it was an abomination.  It was never about that.   It was more for fertility reasons.  I would only guess that it would have been similar as Mormons do it today.  The man visits wife 1 for a couple nights, moves on to wife 2, then to 3.

I can't cite or find the exact spot/canon where it was condemned in Orthodoxy though.   

The first Orthodox crackdown on polygamy came from St. Paul when he required that clergy could only have one spouse. I assume that the entire condemnation of polygamy gradually came later.

That can be interpreted also that a priest be married only once. The canons forbid clergy to remarry after a spouse dies, and also do not allow remarried men to be ordained.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name  of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Church doesn't recognize illegitimate marriages, and by definition polygamist marriages are illegitimate.  But in a purely theoretical which some how assumes this is resolvable, I would suppose the Church would say these are married but not conjugally.

stay blessed,
habte selassie