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Author Topic: Why I Converted To Eastern Orthodoxy : Author Frank Shaeffer  (Read 7576 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2012, 04:09:35 PM »

Wow, what an article! It seems like Schaeffer is going to spend his whole life spewing rage at whichever groups he has left while blaming his parents for this, that, and the other thing for good measure.

I don't think anyone can take his comments as apophaticism. I have read apophatic theology and they are always reverent when they speak of God and Scripture. This is very sacrilegious and disrespectful. I think it's the other "a" word: apostasy.

Lord have mercy!

 
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« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2012, 05:16:36 PM »

I don't think anyone can take his comments as apophaticism. I have read apophatic theology and they are always reverent when they speak of God and Scripture. This is very sacrilegious and disrespectful. I think it's the other "a" word: apostasy.

Lord have mercy!


Exactly.
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« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2012, 05:22:15 PM »

Wow, what happened to this guy.
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« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2012, 05:47:00 PM »

I think Frank is on to something:

Quote
So perhaps it's no coincidence that atheism emerged in the context of the Western Christian expression of both Roman Catholic and Protestant "intellectual" and "rational" religions that carried on doctrinal disputes over their "facts" to such a degree that those theological issues became the root cause of endless wars, persecutions and killings. Beside the idea of correct doctrine leading to actual war Western Christianity paid another price in that it built a house of cards wherein if you remove one card the entire edifice collapses. Since religion was reduced to belief in the right ideas religion became more about the "recipes" in the "cookbook" than about cooking itself.
....
Most things we do have a human community reason for doing them rather than an ideological or theological "reason." I go to church because of my grandchildren. I enjoy taking them to the liturgy. But I'm fortunate because the liturgy I take them to the Greek Orthodox service that revolves around doing of liturgical practice rather than talking about belief systems. What you believe isn't the point. Showing up is. We light candles, take communion, make the sign of the cross, and kiss icons. The comfort I derive from these inane rituals is much the same as the comfort I get from gardening.
....
A "fact based" religious life -- in other words the idea that theology is a road to knowing the "right way" to love God -- is like a fact-based marriage where each person has to be "right" about everything. It's devoid of hope on those days when you don't agree. And spirituality like a marriage only works when the prime directive of love overrides who is right or wrong.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:47:49 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2012, 05:57:45 PM »

"What one believes isn't the point" in the Church of the Seven Councils? I think what one believes is very important in a religion whose name means "right teaching/ worship".

Both the teaching and the "inane rituals" as he calls them are important.

Most important of all is to bring to these a reverent and loving heart that is free of the passionate rage that seems to permeate everything Frank writes these days.

 

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« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2012, 07:02:40 PM »

I could treat you to some dispassionate rage from some holy elders at any time. Come on, the man is angry. So what? So are many of the monks etc.
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« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2012, 07:09:26 PM »

Frank Schaeffer isn't a theologian. He writes what he feels. But I guess he is on something. We cannot know God with our brains*, we can only experience the mystery.

*That's Orthodox doctrine, as opposed to Western scholasticism.


I am convinced that no one in this forum has the right to condemn a communing member of the Orthodox Church, calling him apostate or whatever. If there is any issue, then it is up to his priest and bishop.

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« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2012, 07:15:00 PM »

I could treat you to some dispassionate rage from some holy elders at any time. Come on, the man is angry. So what? So are many of the monks etc.

They would no doubt be angry, as we should be, at someone who refers to the Scriptures as Bronze-Age myths written by homophobic misogynists and to the rejection of the teachings of the Church as an exercise in apophatic theology, or to calling God "if there is one" a "he, she, or it".

Sorry, I am not buying the comparison between Schaeffer and the holy elders, brother.
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« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2012, 07:57:33 PM »

God surely is beyond male, female or neuter, because those are created by God. Christ is male according to his human nature, not according to his divinity.
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« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2012, 08:01:45 PM »

God surely is beyond male, female or neuter, because those are created by God. Christ is male according to his human nature, not according to his divinity.

Yes, that is a part of basic Orthodox theology, it is also part of our practice to refer to God (who is Spirit) as Scripture and the Fathers do: with male pronouns. Not because He is male but because this is the most appropriate form of reference.
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« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2012, 08:04:44 PM »

If anyone wondered if Frank had finally gone off the deep end, this article should put any doubts to rest. He calls his article, "God is such a waste of time - Not to mention hell and the Burning US embassies" and he means it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/god-is-such-a-waste-of-ti_b_1883581.html

Well, that's an "interesting" article, or a rant "I" guess is more what "it" is.
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« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »

Wow, what an article! It seems like Schaeffer is going to spend his whole life spewing rage at whichever groups he has left while blaming his parents for this, that, and the other thing for good measure.

And at some he never belonged to in the first place, e.g. Catholicism. (At least, so I've heard from other Catholics. I never thoroughly investigated the matter myself.)
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« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2012, 09:44:50 PM »

Yes, that is a part of basic Orthodox theology, it is also part of our practice to refer to God (who is Spirit) as Scripture and the Fathers do: with male pronouns. Not because He is male but because this is the most appropriate form of reference.
It is just that "o theos" (God) is gramatically male in Greek. To pnevma (the Spirit) is neuter in Greek and used by the Fathers that way.

But the Fathers, such as St. Dionysios Areopagita and St. Gregory of Nyssa, clearly point out that this language does not mean God is truly male, they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.
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« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2012, 11:13:07 AM »

Yes, that is a part of basic Orthodox theology, it is also part of our practice to refer to God (who is Spirit) as Scripture and the Fathers do: with male pronouns. Not because He is male but because this is the most appropriate form of reference.
It is just that "o theos" (God) is gramatically male in Greek. To pnevma (the Spirit) is neuter in Greek and used by the Fathers that way.

But the Fathers, such as St. Dionysios Areopagita and St. Gregory of Nyssa, clearly point out that this language does not mean God is truly male, they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.

I agree with your post and don't see how it contradicts mine.

How are we in disagreement then?

Would it be just as Orthodox in Greek or English to say the "Our Parent" or the "Our Mother" as it is to say the "Our Father"?

When Schaeffer says "he, she, it" and questions whether God even exists he is deliberately undermining the traditional Christian terminology of the Fathers.

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« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2012, 11:37:34 AM »

Yes, that is a part of basic Orthodox theology, it is also part of our practice to refer to God (who is Spirit) as Scripture and the Fathers do: with male pronouns. Not because He is male but because this is the most appropriate form of reference.
It is just that "o theos" (God) is gramatically male in Greek. To pnevma (the Spirit) is neuter in Greek and used by the Fathers that way.

But the Fathers, such as St. Dionysios Areopagita and St. Gregory of Nyssa, clearly point out that this language does not mean God is truly male, they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.

I agree with your post and don't see how it contradicts mine.

How are we in disagreement then?

Would it be just as Orthodox in Greek or English to say the "Our Parent" or the "Our Mother" as it is to say the "Our Father"?

When Schaeffer says "he, she, it" and questions whether God even exists he is deliberately undermining the traditional Christian terminology of the Fathers.


Not necessarily. I think it's his more recent politics (just a tame, safe form of liberalism, after all) that make those that formerly admired his conversion to orthodoxy, read him know with the hermeneutics of suspicion. It's funny to watch.
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« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2012, 03:02:22 PM »

Yes, that is a part of basic Orthodox theology, it is also part of our practice to refer to God (who is Spirit) as Scripture and the Fathers do: with male pronouns. Not because He is male but because this is the most appropriate form of reference.
It is just that "o theos" (God) is gramatically male in Greek. To pnevma (the Spirit) is neuter in Greek and used by the Fathers that way.

But the Fathers, such as St. Dionysios Areopagita and St. Gregory of Nyssa, clearly point out that this language does not mean God is truly male, they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.

I agree with your post and don't see how it contradicts mine.

How are we in disagreement then?

Would it be just as Orthodox in Greek or English to say the "Our Parent" or the "Our Mother" as it is to say the "Our Father"?

When Schaeffer says "he, she, it" and questions whether God even exists he is deliberately undermining the traditional Christian terminology of the Fathers.


Not necessarily. I think it's his more recent politics (just a tame, safe form of liberalism, after all) that make those that formerly admired his conversion to orthodoxy, read him know with the hermeneutics of suspicion. It's funny to watch.

That is funny.

I was just thinking the opposite: that those who now admire his conversion to the political Left will go through any mental contortion to justify whatever he says because they like to see those they consider religious fundamentalists or the political right get bashed by him.
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« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2012, 03:10:04 PM »

He can't stop himself.  Here's another gem from today.

"Since when do theologians know more about Hell than anyone else? I mean what's a PhD in make-believe worth? Anybody's guess is as good as theirs."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/prohell-evangelical-basti_b_1899325.html

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« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2012, 03:15:38 PM »

He can't stop himself.  Here's another gem from today.

"Since when do theologians know more about Hell than anyone else? I mean what's a PhD in make-believe worth? Anybody's guess is as good as theirs."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/prohell-evangelical-basti_b_1899325.html



You don't understand, this is just another example of apoplectic, I  mean, apophatic theology....
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« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2012, 04:04:14 PM »

 Wink
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« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2012, 02:02:00 PM »

Quote
Hell: it's not just for church anymore. It's in TV, video games, even food branding. Filmmaker Kevin Miller explores our cultural obsession in his movie, "Hellbound?" Also joining the conversation are Brian McLaren, Chris Stedman and Frank Schaeffer.
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« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2012, 02:24:44 PM »

To be fair to Schaeffer, after rereading the article, which is indeed full of his unique apoplectic theology on most of his other points, it seems that he is a Universalist and subscribes to the apokatastasis:

QUOTE: "Completely untrue. When the Universalists talk about the afterlife, they all say there's plenty of room for post-mortem punishment! It's not all daffodils and bunny rabbits and rainbows. It's a hard justice where EVERYONE has to come to terms with the life they've lived -- and make appropriate reparations. If I were Penn and Teller I would stop the review here and say, "BS!"

 While Origen's version of this teaching has been condemned (at least the idea of the pre-existence of the soul and the inevitability of universal salvation as dogma) it has remained the view of some Fathers and important teachers of the Church with no ill affect to their standing: St. Isaac, St. Gregory the Theologian, the early Blessed Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, etc. Nowadays we also have Metropolitans Kallistos and Alfeyev for example.

 While I believe Schaeffer is free to accept this minority opinion as a theologoumenon, I don't understand how he can be so unhinged at the seeming near universal view of the Church and the Fathers that there is a hell to which many will go eternally.



Quoted profanity replaced with something more acceptable for the Public Forum  -PtA
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« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »

Both the teaching and the "inane rituals" as he calls them are important.
Shaeffer has said that the Orthodox Church as a slightly "insane" quality to it, which, for him, is perfect ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLtApJdxcbQ&feature=relmfu ).
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« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2012, 06:30:58 PM »

Both the teaching and the "inane rituals" as he calls them are important.
Shaeffer has said that the Orthodox Church as a slightly "insane" quality to it, which, for him, is perfect ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLtApJdxcbQ&feature=relmfu ).

Yes, I have seen this talk before and think its pretty good, thanks for reminding me about it.

I much prefer this 1996 version of Schaeffer to the one in the 2012 stuff he is putting out now.

Back then his statements were Orthodox even when it was also too harsh, much of what he says now can only be described as heterodox.
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« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2012, 03:06:51 PM »

Frankie does it again:

Quote
Who needs this God business?

And yet, here I am telling my four-year-old granddaughter Lucy that God made the rock she just asked about.
....
I say “and yet” because there’s this internal conversation. “You don’t know anything,” I say to myself, “why lie to her?” The other me answers, “But why pass on your doubts? She deserves a chance at certainty no matter how fleeting, and anyway you still beg God for help even on days when you don’t believe. For instance you’re on your face often enough praying for protection for Lucy.”

And that begging, called prayer, keeps beckoning me back. Old habits die hard. Nothing kills faith faster than being or having been a so-called Christian leader. Mix in the bitter politics of the religious right, let a few years pass, change careers and get out of the God business, and pretty soon you ask – rather I asked myself – who needs this God nonsense?

It turns out that I do.
....
Is there a God? If there is does he hate you? Did Jesus “die for our sins”? What sort of a “god” would continue the terrible cycle of sin, retribution and sacrifice up to such a crazy point as the murder of his own child to satisfy some sort of blood lust masquerading as justice?
....
Maybe his death wasn’t about satisfying an angry God but about breaking the cycle of revenge forever and answering the murder of innocence and an innocent victim with forgiveness for all. If that Jesus, that God, is the creator then he’s worth telling Lucy about — even on days I don’t believe, which on many days I don’t.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 03:07:56 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2012, 04:59:27 PM »

Frankie does it again:

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Who needs this God business?
Maybe his death wasn’t about satisfying an angry God but about breaking the cycle of revenge forever and answering the murder of innocence and an innocent victim with forgiveness for all. If that Jesus, that God, is the creator then he’s worth telling Lucy about — even on days I don’t believe, which on many days I don’t.

Now that is a wonderful statement.
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« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2012, 12:29:20 AM »

Frankie does it again:

Using all of the internet resources available to you why are you calling Frank Schaeffer, Frankie? This term for some reason has a negative connotation from what I can see and I would like to see of full explanation as to why you and others use this designation.
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« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2012, 12:32:20 AM »

Frankie does it again:

Using all of the internet resources available to you why are you calling Frank Schaeffer, Frankie? This term for some reason has a negative connotation from what I can see and I would like to see of full explanation as to why you and others use this designation.

IIRC, it's to distinguish the younger Francis Schaeffer from the elder Francis Shaeffer.
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« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2012, 09:12:10 PM »

Frankie does it again:

Using all of the internet resources available to you why are you calling Frank Schaeffer, Frankie? This term for some reason has a negative connotation from what I can see and I would like to see of full explanation as to why you and others use this designation.
Schaeffer made an audiocassette entitled The Abortion Holocaust and How to Stop It, using the name "Frankie Schaeffer," so the name is fair game. Besides, I'm a fan of Frankie.
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« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2012, 11:31:19 PM »

Frankie does it again:

Using all of the internet resources available to you why are you calling Frank Schaeffer, Frankie? This term for some reason has a negative connotation from what I can see and I would like to see of full explanation as to why you and others use this designation.
Schaeffer made an audiocassette entitled The Abortion Holocaust and How to Stop It, using the name "Frankie Schaeffer," so the name is fair game. Besides, I'm a fan of Frankie.

Not a satisfying answer Jetavan. LBK may be right that it was originally used to distinguish Francis from Frank, but that seem irrelevant at this point. You may like Frankie, but I hate the ie after my name so I am somewhat oversensitive on this matter.

I would say that every post besides your unique use of the term Frankie for Frank Schaeffer is meant to be a pejorative label. One need only type Frankie in the search engine of this forum to see that.

He is a mystery to me but the term Frankie really bothers me.
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« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2012, 10:11:41 PM »

I don't know about anyone else here, but speaking for myself I'm thinking it's simply best not to pay too much attention to F. Schaeffer Jr. (along with a few other Orthodox I could name).
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« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2012, 10:17:16 PM »

I don't know about anyone else here, but speaking for myself I'm thinking it's simply best not to pay too much attention to F. Schaeffer Jr. (along with a few other Orthodox I could name).

I'll thank you, sir, not to talk about me in such a way. And how did you learn my name?
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« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2012, 11:16:54 PM »

they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.

Which is why they never really wrote anything themselves, but instead lived silently in caves ascending to nirvana.
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« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2012, 09:27:46 AM »

they even point out that no language is appropriate at all to refer to God.

Which is why they never really wrote anything themselves, but instead lived silently in caves ascending to nirvana.
Many great saints actually did not write anything at all, but concentrated on pure prayer, indeed in caves, in the desert etc.
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« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2012, 12:06:23 PM »

I don't know about anyone else here, but speaking for myself I'm thinking it's simply best not to pay too much attention to F. Schaeffer Jr. (along with a few other Orthodox I could name).

I'll thank you, sir, not to talk about me in such a way. And how did you learn my name?

Well, along with a few other Orthodox I could name or screen-name as the case may be, I should say. But I'm not sure you would make the list.
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« Reply #124 on: October 11, 2012, 08:51:51 AM »

I don't know about anyone else here, but speaking for myself I'm thinking it's simply best not to pay too much attention to F. Schaeffer Jr. (along with a few other Orthodox I could name).

I'll thank you, sir, not to talk about me in such a way. And how did you learn my name?

Well, along with a few other Orthodox I could name or screen-name as the case may be, I should say. But I'm not sure you would make the list.

P.S. Tom Hanks would be an example (one I can actually "name").
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
DavidH
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« Reply #125 on: October 27, 2012, 10:55:45 AM »

Schaeffer's "Apophatic Theology" in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIcLtQA75nc
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Jetavan
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« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2012, 10:05:00 PM »

Given the recent meterological events, this might be relevant: Francis Schaeffer, Pollution and the Death of Man, 1970:

"At the creation of the world, God gave mankind the responsibility to exercise dominion over the earth. Man was to use the earth and its abundance of resources to satisfy his physical needs, but he was also to care for the earth and its creatures as a wise and godly steward. Reading about endangered species or another oil spill will make it abundantly clear that the human race has failed miserably in its God-given mandate. How did we get to this point? Where should we go from here?

This classic by Francis Schaeffer, now repackaged, looks at contemporary ecological crises through the lens of theology and Scripture."
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 10:05:19 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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