Author Topic: 1 through 10 in Russian  (Read 5423 times)

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2012, 03:34:21 PM »
In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar

Yiddish? That sounds pure German   :)
C'mon it's 20 years of the Ukrainian independence, they don't have any fleet already (actually it grieves me).

That's the whole point of the idiom. "German" at the turn of the 20th century was more of a continuum than a language. Hence, somebody from the low German lands would have a rather easy time understanding Dutch, but would be completely unable to understand Bavarian (a high German "dialect"). The question then, is why is Dutch a language, while other distinct forms of speech in the same family are only dialects of "German"? The difference between a language and a dialect is completely political, and I suspect that is why you are in disagreement with Nektarios.

A good modern day example is Chinese. Really, the "dialects" of Chinese are languages in their own right (I would say that they are more diverse than the so-called Romance languages), but for political and historical reasons, they are termed dialects instead of languages. I actually find it sad that Mandarin, a tongue so different from Middle Chinese, was chosen to be the standard language. Hakka would have been a better choice. 8)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:35:54 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2012, 03:36:07 PM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

You were expecting a thread on this forum to remain on topic and to actually die?
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Offline mike

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2012, 03:43:07 PM »
Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:43:33 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »
In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar

Yiddish? That sounds pure German   :)
C'mon it's 20 years of the Ukrainian independence, they don't have any fleet already (actually it grieves me).

That's the whole point of the idiom. "German" at the turn of the 20th century was more of a continuum than a language. Hence, somebody from the low German lands would have a rather easy time understanding Dutch, but would be completely unable to understand Bavarian (a high German "dialect"). The question then, is why is Dutch a language, while other distinct forms of speech in the same family are only dialects of "German"? The difference between a language and a dialect is completely political, and I suspect that is why you are in disagreement with Nektarios.

A good modern day example is Chinese. Really, the "dialects" of Chinese are languages in their own right (I would say that they are more diverse than the so-called Romance languages), but for political and historical reasons, they are termed dialects instead of languages. I actually find it sad that Mandarin, a tongue so different from Middle Chinese, was chosen to be the standard language. Hakka would have been a better choice. 8)

Chinese is a little unique, though, isn't it, in that writing is mutually intelligible?

Another reason the simplified script is precursor to antichrist.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2012, 09:10:55 PM »
"Mutually intelligible" writing? ???

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »
"Mutually intelligible" writing? ???

Apologies -- sloppy terminology on my part, I'm sure.

What I mean is, a Hakka-speaker could write a letter to a Cantonese-speaker and both would be able to understand the content. Contrariwise, were the same letter to be read aloud by the Hakka-speaker to the Cantonese-speaker, only the Hakka-speaker would understand what was/is being said.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2012, 09:55:18 PM »
"Mutually intelligible" writing? ???

Apologies -- sloppy terminology on my part, I'm sure.

What I mean is, a Hakka-speaker could write a letter to a Cantonese-speaker and both would be able to understand the content. Contrariwise, were the same letter to be read aloud by the Hakka-speaker to the Cantonese-speaker, only the Hakka-speaker would understand what was/is being said.

That is partially true. In practice, there are a lot of characters used in one regional tongue which do not appear in others. This is true of Cantonese, for example, where the characters used for the third person pronoun, the copula, the plural marker for pronouns, the possessive marker, and the verb to come (among others) are different from Mandarin. But yes, generally speaking, the writing can be mutually intelligible if characters common to both tongues are exclusively used, whereas speech is not generally mutually intelligible.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 09:56:13 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline Vladik

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2012, 12:11:37 AM »
You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?

You pretended to be a rusophone.
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:14:19 AM by Vladik »

Offline Vladik

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2012, 12:53:51 AM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:54:59 AM by Vladik »

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2012, 04:06:54 AM »
All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 

Offline Vladik

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2012, 09:35:48 AM »
All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 



A famous Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov: "диалект с нашим очень сходен, однако его ударение, произношение и окончания речений от соседства с поляками и от долговременной бытности под их властью много отменились или прямо сказать попортились"  (http://www.rudata.ru/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%B5/Temp)



As for the 20th century, Nikolai Trubetzkoy ("was a Russian linguist and historian whose teachings formed a nucleus of the Prague School of structural linguistics")
"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе"
See: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm

Offline mike

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2012, 10:10:33 AM »
All both of them were Russians? I suppose there are Ukrainian linguists that claim Russian language if a dialect of the Ukrainian.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2012, 10:15:00 AM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2012, 10:30:32 AM »
You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?

You pretended to be a rusophone.
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
Yes, I saw it the first time.  Although it acknowledges regional differences, it doesn't address how that affects its results, just what is "traditional."

It also seems to show a growing preference of a course for Ukraine independent of the EU and Russia.

Btw, substantiation means some action actually practicing what is preached, like the independence referendum. And you pretend to be a anglophone.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2012, 03:55:19 PM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?

That would be better, and a little more traditional. One has to be careful what transliteration one puts in front of Americans; some of the resulting sounds are simply ghastly.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2012, 05:37:21 PM »
Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... ::)

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?

That would be better, and a little more traditional. One has to be careful what transliteration one puts in front of Americans; some of the resulting sounds are simply ghastly.

True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).  And it is doubtful they'd come up with anything close to и / ы for with "y". 

Offline mike

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »
True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).

Still better that Poles. In the pronunciation I hear on TV the Americans (or native English speakers in general) seem to pronounce these two sounds (in English) as separate sounds, although they might not know that in Ukrainian there is such a distinction too. On the other hand in Poland the sound described in Cyrillic whit 'г' has already disappeared. Little amount of people can hear it, even less - pronounce.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 05:45:25 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2012, 05:44:01 PM »
Sad times for Slavonic.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2012, 03:47:38 AM »
All both of them were Russians? I suppose there are Ukrainian linguists that claim Russian language if a dialect of the Ukrainian.

It doesn't matter if one is Russian, what is important is whether one's political ideology is what drives one's scientific work.  Lomonosov was very much a part of the ideology of the Russian Empire.  Dismissing the Ukrainian language and people was part of the agenda.  Trubetzkoy was a Eurasianist.  If you read the linked essay, it isn't a scientific work at all.  It is more a point of aesthetics.  I don't think Vladik could produce a peer reviewed academic work published in the last thirty years that claims Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian. 

I think only the most crazy of Ukrainians would claim Russian as a dialect of Ukrainian.  Where Ukrainian nationalism appears in scholarship, it is usually connected with Ruthenians.  In general the direction most scholars who don't simply regurgitate Muscovite propaganda are heading is to question the idea of East Slavic linguistic unity during the time of Kyivs'ka Rus'.  Novgorod may yet prove to be the thorn in the side of Muscovite ambitions, thanks to the early attestation of its language.       

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:09 AM »
All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 



A famous Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov: "диалект с нашим очень сходен, однако его ударение, произношение и окончания речений от соседства с поляками и от долговременной бытности под их властью много отменились или прямо сказать попортились"  (http://www.rudata.ru/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%B5/Temp)
Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.



As for the 20th century, Nikolai Trubetzkoy ("was a Russian linguist and historian whose teachings formed a nucleus of the Prague School of structural linguistics")
"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе"
See: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5w94-Yx1gAC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=trubetzkoy+ukrainian&source=bl&ots=DhbX9L4LoW&sig=YKr2OMT7glnN6jK7tMggu1ZaAuI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vBW0T_bJBIrs8wTQx70H&ved=0CGkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=trubetzkoy%20ukrainian&f=false
where he talks about the distinctions between Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian, which, according to him, predate the rise of Moscow, indeed before its founding and during the Kievan Rus' period.

Btw:
Institute for the Ukrainian Language, the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine
http://www.nas.gov.ua/INSTITUTES/IUM/Pages/default.aspx
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2012, 11:22:57 AM »
True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).

Still better that Poles. In the pronunciation I hear on TV the Americans (or native English speakers in general) seem to pronounce these two sounds (in English) as separate sounds, although they might not know that in Ukrainian there is such a distinction too. On the other hand in Poland the sound described in Cyrillic whit 'г' has already disappeared. Little amount of people can hear it, even less - pronounce.
just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Vladik

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2012, 08:56:01 AM »
a dialect of the Ukrainian.

Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.
I'll answer in a new topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44768.new.html#new
For this is offtopic here.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:05:15 AM by Vladik »

Offline Punch

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2012, 11:56:39 AM »
That is for sure.  We had a delegation of Russians here back in the '90's, and since the plant was in Ukraine, we had one of our Ukrainian engineers escort them as a translator.  As he was addressing them, one of the delegation (who, indeed were Russian) asked him why he kept speaking to them in Polish.

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2012, 12:18:26 PM »
LOL. My Ukrainian sweetheart worked at a Polish bakery.  When she spoke Ukrainian to the customers, they would say "Oh, a Russian girl."

I guess the Ukrainians can't win.

That is for sure.  We had a delegation of Russians here back in the '90's, and since the plant was in Ukraine, we had one of our Ukrainian engineers escort them as a translator.  As he was addressing them, one of the delegation (who, indeed were Russian) asked him why he kept speaking to them in Polish.

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gorazd

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2012, 10:10:57 AM »
just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ

Didn't you claim to be Egyptian? Russian/Bulgarian г is like Egyptian ﺝ (geem). Ukrainian г is like Egyptian ﻩ‎ (ha).

ﻍ‏ (ghain) ‎, on the other hand, is like French r, a sound which does not exist in Ukrainian or Russian. Ukrainian/Russian x is like Arabic ﺥ‎ (kha), Bulgarian x is like ﻩ‎ (ha).

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »
just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ

Didn't you claim to be Egyptian? Russian/Bulgarian г is like Egyptian ﺝ (geem). Ukrainian г is like Egyptian ﻩ‎ (ha).

ﻍ‏ (ghain) ‎, on the other hand, is like French r, a sound which does not exist in Ukrainian or Russian. Ukrainian/Russian x is like Arabic ﺥ‎ (kha), Bulgarian x is like ﻩ‎ (ha).
Church Slavonic, which is what I understand what was being discussed, pronounces it like غ
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2012, 09:53:21 PM »
the Ukrainians can't win.

The essence of Ukrainian history.
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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2012, 09:56:23 PM »
The Slavons were such a Christian, holy people, that they never left church. That's why we call it Church Slavonic. Sometime around the time the Mongols destroyed Kiev, the Slavons who were left mysteriously vanished. Some say they were taken up to heaven like Elias. Even today, there is many a good priest who will tell you we will all speak Church Slavonic in heaven. And it's just so.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »
Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts, Syriac from the Syrians, Ge'ez from the Tewahedo, etc. I guess maybe it will be like one of those museums where you pick up the headset of your choice language... :D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 10:24:39 PM »
Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts
Otto Meinardus has a lovely line in describing the world view of the Copts: "God takes care of his own, i.e. the Monophysite [sic] Copts, and will judge everyone else accordingly."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »
Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts
Otto Meinardus has a lovely line in describing the world view of the Copts: "God takes care of his own, i.e. the Monophysite [sic] Copts, and will judge everyone else accordingly."


What was the line of Patriarch Severus? Something about Alexandrians thinking the sun only shines for them?
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: 1 through 10 in Russian
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 10:54:23 PM »
Hahaha. That is so true. After liturgy last week I observed a conversation between two friends from the church, one of whom is from Cairo (I think) and the other from Alexandria, that went like this:

Cairene: I really like Abouna Filemon (the priest who had served the liturgy that day)...he is a very holy man. You know while everyone was arguing among each other during the (agape) meal, I looked over and expected to see him sitting in his chair (the chair that is reserved for him out of respect), but instead he was sitting on the floor, quietly reading over the scriptures and praying. Just like a monk! He is more holy than the rest of us, I think.

Alexandrian: Of course he is...you know why? He is from Alexandria, like me! ;D

They then commenced bickering and laughing at each other. "Ohhh, THIS guy...Alexandrians are like this, you see! They think they are better than everybody" "You are just jealous you aren't one of us!", etc. It's like going to the church of Mari Abbot and Costello sometimes, I swear... ::)