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Author Topic: 1 through 10 in Russian  (Read 3762 times) Average Rating: 0
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Salpy
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« on: May 12, 2012, 11:06:52 AM »

It's a long story as to why I need this, but can someone write out for me how to count from one to ten in Russian?  Could you write it in both Russian letters, and English transliteration?
 

Thanks.   Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 11:21:28 AM »

Google is your friend Wink

1 - один     (adeen)
2 - два     (dva)
3 - три     (tri)
4 - четыре     (chyetirye)
5 - пять     (pyat)
6 - шесть     (shest)
7 - семь     (syem)
8 - восемь     (vosyem)
9 - девять   (dyeviat)
10 - десять   (dyesiat)

Source: http://russian.speak7.com/russian_numbers.htm
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 07:23:27 PM »

One in Russian
Two in Russian
Three in Russian
Four in Russian
Five in Russian
Six in Russian
Seven in Russian
Eight in Russian
Nine in Russian
Ten in Russian

There.
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 07:57:35 PM »

Don't forget about palatalization, which is what the soft sign (the letter that looks like a lower case B at the end of the numbers for 5-10) indicates. It is not a sound in and of itself (in the sense of "ay", "bee", "cee"), but as a phonological process, palatization in Russian is quite important, and can be contrastive (e.g., брать and брат are two different words).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 07:57:58 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2012, 08:06:20 PM »

Thanks, guys.   Smiley

I took the suggestion to use google and I found this helpful page:

http://learningrussian.net/games_verbs_grammar3.php
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 01:23:12 PM »

4 - четыре     (chyetirye)

Cheetyreeh (or also Chetyreeh)

Quote
(pyat)
6 - шесть     (shest)
7 - семь     (syem)
8 - восемь     (vosyem)

palatalization needed!

Quote
9 - девять   (dyeviat)

Dyevyat' (palatalization)

Quote
10 - десять   (dyesiat)

Dyesyat' (palatalization)

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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2012, 01:25:06 PM »

Palatalization is something like soft D in the word diablo  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2012, 03:26:27 PM »

Palatalization is something like soft D in the word diablo  Roll Eyes

Would you say that the palatalization is somewhat like "hinting" at the letter without actually pronouncing it?  IDK how to describe this really, sorta saying "five" as "pya" and ending with my tongue on the roof of my mouth without doing the "te" sound you would do in English - i.e. "boat".
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 03:39:15 PM »

A palatalized sound is pronounced with the tongue raised towards the palate. The example Wikipedia gives of this secondary articulation is the initial glide in the word "yellow", so it's like a very soft "y" added after the particular consonant, if you could imagine adding just the "y", without the following "e" that adds voicing (try it a few times and you'll get used to it...or end up sounding like a Tatar).
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2012, 11:54:41 PM »

.or end up sounding like a Tatar).

We had it before Tatars and Mongols.
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 12:22:21 AM »

Haha. I was referring to the so-called Tatar accent, since they don't palatalize.
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 12:59:39 AM »

It's a long story as to why I need this, but can someone write out for me how to count from one to ten in Russian?  Could you write it in both Russian letters, and English transliteration?
 

Thanks.   Smiley

I use this site for this sort of thing:
http://traubman.igc.org/russian.htm
including how to pronounce Russian numbers:
http://traubman.igc.org/russian13numbers.mp3

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 01:31:37 AM »

doing the "te" sound you would do in English - i.e. "boat".

Yes, something like this.
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 01:35:30 AM »

Actually one may download here for free: http://www.twirpx.com/files/languages/russian_foreign/ some textbooks of Russian as foreign language, including audio and video courses.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 01:36:11 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 05:02:08 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 07:21:46 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

Oh they do, just much less often than in Russian and in different places. 
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 08:28:43 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 08:51:41 AM »

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Nonesense. And please, Saints Kyrill and Methodios did not speak Russian or Ukrainian, but Church Slavonic, which is Old Bulgarian.

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 09:04:12 AM »

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Nonesense.

FYI the one language has the one syntax. That's why Austrians and Prussians speak German language (not Prussian and Austrian languages).


Quote
Kyrill and Methodios did not speak Russian

I didn't say that.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 09:08:52 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 09:19:00 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 09:22:27 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 09:46:08 AM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2012, 11:10:58 AM »

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   

UKR: По дорозі додому я зайшов до крамниці (po dorozi do domu ya zayshov do kramnitsi)
RUS: По дороге домой, я зашел в магазин (Po doroge do doma ya zashel v magazin)

A Russian also may say "ya zayshov do magazinu/kramnitsu/sklepu" and to be understood, but that will sound rather funny as a language of a villager.

RUS: придя домой, я вышел в интернет (pridya domoy, ya vyshel v internet)
UKR: прийшовши додому, я вийшов у інтернет (priyshovshi dodomu, ya viyshov ou internet).

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 12:04:49 PM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

You mean that letter?

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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2012, 01:52:47 PM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

You mean that letter?



Glagolitic alphabet never been there is in Rus[sia].
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2012, 02:11:25 PM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

You mean that letter?



Glagolitic alphabet never been there is in Rus[sia].

St.St. Cyrill and Methodius never heard of the Cyryllic.
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2012, 03:18:24 PM »

One in Russian
Two in Russian
Three in Russian
Four in Russian
Five in Russian
Six in Russian
Seven in Russian
Eight in Russian
Nine in Russian
Ten in Russian

There.

hehehe
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 04:10:07 AM »

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   

UKR: По дорозі додому я зайшов до крамниці (po dorozi do domu ya zayshov do kramnitsi)
RUS: По дороге домой, я зашел в магазин (Po doroge do doma ya zashel v magazin)

A Russian also may say "ya zayshov do magazinu/kramnitsu/sklepu" and to be understood, but that will sound rather funny as a language of a villager.

RUS: придя домой, я вышел в интернет (pridya domoy, ya vyshel v internet)
UKR: прийшовши додому, я вийшов у інтернет (priyshovshi dodomu, ya viyshov ou internet).

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative?  Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine? 

Learn to speak Ukrainian and spend some time in Ukrainian speaking areas and you'll quickly realize how different the languages are.  Right now you are blowing smoke about something you really have no idea about.  It is funny how for the most part the Russian chauvinists in Ukraine have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.   
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 04:51:59 AM »

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative?  Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine? 

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.
And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

Quote
have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.   

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical) 
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 05:05:53 AM »

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative?  Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine? 

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.
And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

Quote
have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.   

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical) 

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar at one point in time. The Ukrainians, I assume, have an army and navy, so if they claim that their dialekt iz a shprakh, there ain't anything you can do about it, tough boy, because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so. Poor Vladik, you must feel so out of control. laugh
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 05:11:48 AM »

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative?  Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine? 

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.
And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

You have adopted Russian chauvinism regardless of your DNA.  

I'm actually going on my experience of working in the language industry and education in Ukraine.  Despite what the extremists on both sides say, Ukraine really is a bilingual country and you really need a decent knowledge of both languages to succeed.   This is becoming a greater problem as the quality of the educational system is terrible and isn't producing people who speak both languages properly.

On a lighter note, Ukrainian is simply more accurate in some cases.  Гаишник is даишник and Верховна Рада України works better than Верховый Совет Украины (i.e вру is more accurate than всу)  Cheesy

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical) 

I can pretty easily understand both.  A monolingual Russian understands something approaching 0% of conversational Ukrainian.  If the the Ukrainian slows down, uses simple words and grammar then the Russian can understand only the basics.  But then again the same is also true with say a Russian and Bulgarian or Serbian.    
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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 05:40:13 AM »

Відпочиваючи улітку на галявині та всього-на-всього розглядаючи хмаринки, я міркував про майбутнє - що на мене чекає і чи варто сподіватися на диво.

So Vladik, without a dictionary what does that say?   Since Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian you should at least get the gist of it. 
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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2012, 08:21:10 AM »

Ukrainian language/dialect has different dialects too.



And these Ukrainian dialects ain't similar; they say, that Galician dialect is a separate language (too many Polish influence).

Actually the ideology of Ukranianism was created in Lemberg (Lviv) by the Polish linguists serving the Austrian secret services in order to undermine the Russian expansion in their Ruthenian/Rusinian/Russian or - how they finaly say in our days - "Ukrainian" provinces.
FYI Seberia had been also called "Ukraine" in the 17th century, since the word "Ukraine" (Oukraina or Okraina) literally does mean "the outskirts", and "Ukrainian" - "a man from the outskirts". The original name of the Ukrainians is "Rusinians" (Rusin or Rus'ki) (compare it with "Russians" - Russky).

All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:39:51 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2012, 08:36:44 AM »

Відпочиваючи улітку на галявині та всього-на-всього розглядаючи хмаринки, я міркував про майбутнє - що на мене чекає і чи варто сподіватися на диво.

So Vladik, without a dictionary what does that say?   Since Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian you should at least get the gist of it.  

Yes, I've got the gist. Wink
I meant the syntax, but you are talknig about the lexicon.
Yes, lexicon is not the same there is in Ukrainian and Russian dialects. There is a lot of Polish and even Hungarian words in Ukranian, especially West Ukrainian (Lemberg) dialect.
The syntax is the same there's in German language, but the lexicon of the Swiss German isn't same with Pomeranian one. And all they speak in some different dialects of the one language.



E.g. чекає from your text is a Polish word czekac' (to look for).

Well, it's hard to understand West Ukrainian dialects for me (especially those from the former Austrian Lemberg or Uzhgorod), but I've understood 100% Ukrainian TV shows which I've watched. E.g. I perfectly understand Harry Poter in Ukrainian language (sounds so funny  Cheesy I watch it as a comedy)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:37:30 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 09:13:54 AM »

In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar

Yiddish? That sounds pure German  Smiley
C'mon it's 20 years of the Ukrainian independence, they don't have any fleet already (actually it grieves me).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 09:15:36 AM by Vladik » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2012, 09:21:20 AM »

because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so.

FYI, East Ukraine, South Ukraine with Odessa and Crimea don't share your enthusiasm. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2012, 12:20:17 PM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.
They are dialects only because the Pomerian Germans (of which I am one, btw, and Pomeranian isn't even High German) and the Luxemburgers have adopted the Standarddeutsch.  Russian and Ukrainian have no such standard.
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2012, 12:27:20 PM »

because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so.

FYI, East Ukraine, South Ukraine with Odessa and Crimea don't share your enthusiasm. Wink

They did in 1991:the independence referendum passed in all of the above.  The lowest was Crimea at 54.19%.  Sevastopol was 57.07%, and no other oblast passed it less than over 80%.

 Grin
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »

because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so.

FYI, East Ukraine, South Ukraine with Odessa and Crimea don't share your enthusiasm. Wink

They did in 1991:the independence referendum passed in all of the above.  The lowest was Crimea at 54.19%.  Sevastopol was 57.07%, and no other oblast passed it less than over 80%.

 Grin

According to the recent polls:
44% Ukrainians are for a Union with Russia
29% for a Union with the EU

And 55% are ready to say "yes" to the Union with Russia in a referendum. 27% would say "no".
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
 Grin
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2012, 01:36:37 PM »

because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so.

FYI, East Ukraine, South Ukraine with Odessa and Crimea don't share your enthusiasm. Wink

They did in 1991:the independence referendum passed in all of the above.  The lowest was Crimea at 54.19%.  Sevastopol was 57.07%, and no other oblast passed it less than over 80%.

 Grin

According to the recent polls:
44% Ukrainians are for a Union with Russia
29% for a Union with the EU

And 55% are ready to say "yes" to the Union with Russia in a referendum. 27% would say "no".
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
 Grin
well, get said referendum on a ballot, and they'll test your thesis out.

Until then, we'll stick to established fact.

You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2012, 01:37:44 PM »

Відпочиваючи улітку на галявині та всього-на-всього розглядаючи хмаринки, я міркував про майбутнє - що на мене чекає і чи варто сподіватися на диво.

I have problems with 'halavnya' and "vsyoho-na-vsyoho".

Yiddish? That sounds pure German  Smiley

Yiddish is a Germanic language.
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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 03:23:30 PM »

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)
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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

Oh they do, just much less often than in Russian and in different places. 

Is this a euphemistic conversation?
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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2012, 03:28:45 PM »

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   

UKR: По дорозі додому я зайшов до крамниці (po dorozi do domu ya zayshov do kramnitsi)
RUS: По дороге домой, я зашел в магазин (Po doroge do doma ya zashel v magazin)

A Russian also may say "ya zayshov do magazinu/kramnitsu/sklepu" and to be understood, but that will sound rather funny as a language of a villager.

RUS: придя домой, я вышел в интернет (pridya domoy, ya vyshel v internet)
UKR: прийшовши додому, я вийшов у інтернет (priyshovshi dodomu, ya viyshov ou internet).

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative?  Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine? 


Because before acquiring Ukraine, Russia was dump.
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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2012, 03:30:47 PM »

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."
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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2012, 03:34:21 PM »

In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar

Yiddish? That sounds pure German   Smiley
C'mon it's 20 years of the Ukrainian independence, they don't have any fleet already (actually it grieves me).

That's the whole point of the idiom. "German" at the turn of the 20th century was more of a continuum than a language. Hence, somebody from the low German lands would have a rather easy time understanding Dutch, but would be completely unable to understand Bavarian (a high German "dialect"). The question then, is why is Dutch a language, while other distinct forms of speech in the same family are only dialects of "German"? The difference between a language and a dialect is completely political, and I suspect that is why you are in disagreement with Nektarios.

A good modern day example is Chinese. Really, the "dialects" of Chinese are languages in their own right (I would say that they are more diverse than the so-called Romance languages), but for political and historical reasons, they are termed dialects instead of languages. I actually find it sad that Mandarin, a tongue so different from Middle Chinese, was chosen to be the standard language. Hakka would have been a better choice. Cool
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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2012, 03:36:07 PM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes

You were expecting a thread on this forum to remain on topic and to actually die?
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2012, 03:43:07 PM »

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »

In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar

Yiddish? That sounds pure German   Smiley
C'mon it's 20 years of the Ukrainian independence, they don't have any fleet already (actually it grieves me).

That's the whole point of the idiom. "German" at the turn of the 20th century was more of a continuum than a language. Hence, somebody from the low German lands would have a rather easy time understanding Dutch, but would be completely unable to understand Bavarian (a high German "dialect"). The question then, is why is Dutch a language, while other distinct forms of speech in the same family are only dialects of "German"? The difference between a language and a dialect is completely political, and I suspect that is why you are in disagreement with Nektarios.

A good modern day example is Chinese. Really, the "dialects" of Chinese are languages in their own right (I would say that they are more diverse than the so-called Romance languages), but for political and historical reasons, they are termed dialects instead of languages. I actually find it sad that Mandarin, a tongue so different from Middle Chinese, was chosen to be the standard language. Hakka would have been a better choice. Cool

Chinese is a little unique, though, isn't it, in that writing is mutually intelligible?

Another reason the simplified script is precursor to antichrist.
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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2012, 09:10:55 PM »

"Mutually intelligible" writing? Huh
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »

"Mutually intelligible" writing? Huh

Apologies -- sloppy terminology on my part, I'm sure.

What I mean is, a Hakka-speaker could write a letter to a Cantonese-speaker and both would be able to understand the content. Contrariwise, were the same letter to be read aloud by the Hakka-speaker to the Cantonese-speaker, only the Hakka-speaker would understand what was/is being said.
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2012, 09:55:18 PM »

"Mutually intelligible" writing? Huh

Apologies -- sloppy terminology on my part, I'm sure.

What I mean is, a Hakka-speaker could write a letter to a Cantonese-speaker and both would be able to understand the content. Contrariwise, were the same letter to be read aloud by the Hakka-speaker to the Cantonese-speaker, only the Hakka-speaker would understand what was/is being said.

That is partially true. In practice, there are a lot of characters used in one regional tongue which do not appear in others. This is true of Cantonese, for example, where the characters used for the third person pronoun, the copula, the plural marker for pronouns, the possessive marker, and the verb to come (among others) are different from Mandarin. But yes, generally speaking, the writing can be mutually intelligible if characters common to both tongues are exclusively used, whereas speech is not generally mutually intelligible.
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2012, 12:11:37 AM »

You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?

You pretended to be a rusophone.
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2012, 12:53:51 AM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2012, 04:06:54 AM »

All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 
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« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2012, 09:35:48 AM »

All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 



A famous Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov: "диалект с нашим очень сходен, однако его ударение, произношение и окончания речений от соседства с поляками и от долговременной бытности под их властью много отменились или прямо сказать попортились"  (http://www.rudata.ru/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%B5/Temp)



As for the 20th century, Nikolai Trubetzkoy ("was a Russian linguist and historian whose teachings formed a nucleus of the Prague School of structural linguistics")
"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе"
See: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
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« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2012, 10:10:33 AM »

All both of them were Russians? I suppose there are Ukrainian linguists that claim Russian language if a dialect of the Ukrainian.
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2012, 10:15:00 AM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?
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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2012, 10:30:32 AM »

You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?

You pretended to be a rusophone.
http://www.odnako.org/blogs/show_16856/
Yes, I saw it the first time.  Although it acknowledges regional differences, it doesn't address how that affects its results, just what is "traditional."

It also seems to show a growing preference of a course for Ukraine independent of the EU and Russia.

Btw, substantiation means some action actually practicing what is preached, like the independence referendum. And you pretend to be a anglophone.
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« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2012, 03:55:19 PM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?

That would be better, and a little more traditional. One has to be careful what transliteration one puts in front of Americans; some of the resulting sounds are simply ghastly.
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« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2012, 05:37:21 PM »

Nope, you aren't, but then since none of this has to do with teaching Salpy to count to ten in Russian, who the heck cares... Roll Eyes

I'm wondering, why all the offtopic isn't splited yet?

Actually Ukrainian is a distorted - with Polish influence - Russian.

Hospodi pomilui! (translation: Lord have mercy!)

I suppose I'm the only one annoyed by transliterating with an "H."

Vladik could be too.

You are right.
You prefer "gh"?

That would be better, and a little more traditional. One has to be careful what transliteration one puts in front of Americans; some of the resulting sounds are simply ghastly.

True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).  And it is doubtful they'd come up with anything close to и / ы for with "y". 
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« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »

True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).

Still better that Poles. In the pronunciation I hear on TV the Americans (or native English speakers in general) seem to pronounce these two sounds (in English) as separate sounds, although they might not know that in Ukrainian there is such a distinction too. On the other hand in Poland the sound described in Cyrillic whit 'г' has already disappeared. Little amount of people can hear it, even less - pronounce.
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« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2012, 05:44:01 PM »

Sad times for Slavonic.
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« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2012, 03:47:38 AM »

All both of them were Russians? I suppose there are Ukrainian linguists that claim Russian language if a dialect of the Ukrainian.

It doesn't matter if one is Russian, what is important is whether one's political ideology is what drives one's scientific work.  Lomonosov was very much a part of the ideology of the Russian Empire.  Dismissing the Ukrainian language and people was part of the agenda.  Trubetzkoy was a Eurasianist.  If you read the linked essay, it isn't a scientific work at all.  It is more a point of aesthetics.  I don't think Vladik could produce a peer reviewed academic work published in the last thirty years that claims Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian. 

I think only the most crazy of Ukrainians would claim Russian as a dialect of Ukrainian.  Where Ukrainian nationalism appears in scholarship, it is usually connected with Ruthenians.  In general the direction most scholars who don't simply regurgitate Muscovite propaganda are heading is to question the idea of East Slavic linguistic unity during the time of Kyivs'ka Rus'.  Novgorod may yet prove to be the thorn in the side of Muscovite ambitions, thanks to the early attestation of its language.       
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« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:09 AM »

All what I'm talking about are well documented facts.

Except of course you'd be hard pressed to find a single internationally recognized academic or scholar who has the same conclusions regarding Ukrainian as you do. 



A famous Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov: "диалект с нашим очень сходен, однако его ударение, произношение и окончания речений от соседства с поляками и от долговременной бытности под их властью много отменились или прямо сказать попортились"  (http://www.rudata.ru/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%B5/Temp)
Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.



As for the 20th century, Nikolai Trubetzkoy ("was a Russian linguist and historian whose teachings formed a nucleus of the Prague School of structural linguistics")
"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе"
See: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5w94-Yx1gAC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=trubetzkoy+ukrainian&source=bl&ots=DhbX9L4LoW&sig=YKr2OMT7glnN6jK7tMggu1ZaAuI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vBW0T_bJBIrs8wTQx70H&ved=0CGkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=trubetzkoy%20ukrainian&f=false
where he talks about the distinctions between Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian, which, according to him, predate the rise of Moscow, indeed before its founding and during the Kievan Rus' period.

Btw:
Institute for the Ukrainian Language, the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine
http://www.nas.gov.ua/INSTITUTES/IUM/Pages/default.aspx
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« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2012, 11:22:57 AM »

True, but unless an American already knows the language there is no way they'd differentiate between х and г (Ukrainian pronunciation).

Still better that Poles. In the pronunciation I hear on TV the Americans (or native English speakers in general) seem to pronounce these two sounds (in English) as separate sounds, although they might not know that in Ukrainian there is such a distinction too. On the other hand in Poland the sound described in Cyrillic whit 'г' has already disappeared. Little amount of people can hear it, even less - pronounce.
just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ
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« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2012, 08:56:01 AM »

a dialect of the Ukrainian.

Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.
I'll answer in a new topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44768.new.html#new
For this is offtopic here.
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« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2012, 11:56:39 AM »

That is for sure.  We had a delegation of Russians here back in the '90's, and since the plant was in Ukraine, we had one of our Ukrainian engineers escort them as a translator.  As he was addressing them, one of the delegation (who, indeed were Russian) asked him why he kept speaking to them in Polish.

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   
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« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2012, 12:18:26 PM »

LOL. My Ukrainian sweetheart worked at a Polish bakery.  When she spoke Ukrainian to the customers, they would say "Oh, a Russian girl."

I guess the Ukrainians can't win.

That is for sure.  We had a delegation of Russians here back in the '90's, and since the plant was in Ukraine, we had one of our Ukrainian engineers escort them as a translator.  As he was addressing them, one of the delegation (who, indeed were Russian) asked him why he kept speaking to them in Polish.

Palatalisation is a thing Ukrainians don't do.

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer')  for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

Um no.  Just travel around Ukraine a bit and you'd realize that isn't true. 

Apparently you are confusing lexicon with syntax.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon.  Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian.  Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.   
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2012, 10:10:57 AM »

just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ

Didn't you claim to be Egyptian? Russian/Bulgarian г is like Egyptian ﺝ (geem). Ukrainian г is like Egyptian ﻩ‎ (ha).

ﻍ‏ (ghain) ‎, on the other hand, is like French r, a sound which does not exist in Ukrainian or Russian. Ukrainian/Russian x is like Arabic ﺥ‎ (kha), Bulgarian x is like ﻩ‎ (ha).
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »

just grab an Arab.  We have it. غ

Didn't you claim to be Egyptian? Russian/Bulgarian г is like Egyptian ﺝ (geem). Ukrainian г is like Egyptian ﻩ‎ (ha).

ﻍ‏ (ghain) ‎, on the other hand, is like French r, a sound which does not exist in Ukrainian or Russian. Ukrainian/Russian x is like Arabic ﺥ‎ (kha), Bulgarian x is like ﻩ‎ (ha).
Church Slavonic, which is what I understand what was being discussed, pronounces it like غ
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2012, 09:53:21 PM »

the Ukrainians can't win.

The essence of Ukrainian history.
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« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2012, 09:56:23 PM »

The Slavons were such a Christian, holy people, that they never left church. That's why we call it Church Slavonic. Sometime around the time the Mongols destroyed Kiev, the Slavons who were left mysteriously vanished. Some say they were taken up to heaven like Elias. Even today, there is many a good priest who will tell you we will all speak Church Slavonic in heaven. And it's just so.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »

Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts, Syriac from the Syrians, Ge'ez from the Tewahedo, etc. I guess maybe it will be like one of those museums where you pick up the headset of your choice language... Cheesy
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« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 10:24:39 PM »

Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts
Otto Meinardus has a lovely line in describing the world view of the Copts: "God takes care of his own, i.e. the Monophysite [sic] Copts, and will judge everyone else accordingly."
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »

Hmm. That's odd. I've always heard it is Coptic from the Copts
Otto Meinardus has a lovely line in describing the world view of the Copts: "God takes care of his own, i.e. the Monophysite [sic] Copts, and will judge everyone else accordingly."


What was the line of Patriarch Severus? Something about Alexandrians thinking the sun only shines for them?
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 10:54:23 PM »

Hahaha. That is so true. After liturgy last week I observed a conversation between two friends from the church, one of whom is from Cairo (I think) and the other from Alexandria, that went like this:

Cairene: I really like Abouna Filemon (the priest who had served the liturgy that day)...he is a very holy man. You know while everyone was arguing among each other during the (agape) meal, I looked over and expected to see him sitting in his chair (the chair that is reserved for him out of respect), but instead he was sitting on the floor, quietly reading over the scriptures and praying. Just like a monk! He is more holy than the rest of us, I think.

Alexandrian: Of course he is...you know why? He is from Alexandria, like me! Grin

They then commenced bickering and laughing at each other. "Ohhh, THIS guy...Alexandrians are like this, you see! They think they are better than everybody" "You are just jealous you aren't one of us!", etc. It's like going to the church of Mari Abbot and Costello sometimes, I swear... Roll Eyes
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