Topic: I'm Considering Vegetarianism...

[JamesR]

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?

[dzheremi]

I thought I couldn't give up meat for the great fast, either (this year was my first), but I did. Just the same, I don't think that what you eat or don't eat is a matter of "exhibiting greater behavior or ethics". It's what comes out of the mouth of a man that defiles him, remember?

[mike]

Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics.

Christ ate fish.

I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures?

Other creatures are not humans.

Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement?

What do you mean? How animals can advance in their "ethics"? Since when animals have ethics?

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is no shame in that, plenty of folks have decided not to eat meat or even animal products.  Many Rastafari brothers and sisters live strictly ital, which is purely vegan with an emphasis and food consciousness.  All food is a gift from God, so we must be conscious of how we eat.  Like many priests my own included have said, "Do you eat to live, or live to eat?"  In Rastafari, we eat to live, and we want to live good, so we eat good.  Many monks and Christians have also felt it good to not eat meat.  There is nothing wrong with their example.  Like Apostle Paul said, "Therefore, if food makes my brother to stumble, I will eat no meat while the world stands, lest I make my brother to stumble."  Further, there are plenty of ethical reasons not to eat meat in the modern world, it is an ecological and moral disaster both how the animals and environments are treated! I say if God gives you the strength, more power to you!

I prefer to go with the Orthodox calendar of seasonal veganism through fasting culture.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[NightOwl]

Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics.

Christ ate fish.

Very good point!!

[vamrat]

The thought has crossed my mind on many occasions.  It is only a lack of discipline that has kept me from it.

[Anastasios]

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

[Νεκτάριος]

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 

[Shiny]

God gave us marijuana.

But did God instruct us to light it and smoke it?

[vamrat]

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 

I have to agree with Nektarios on this one, on both points.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

It didn't seem to me that the OP is not trying to suggest that ALL of Orthodox should be vegan, but considering there are many fathers and monks who have chosen to remain vegetarian and vegan all their lives, is it not at the least Orthodox to say folks have the option?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Alpo]

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid.

This is why I'm constantly considering switching Vegetarianism. Having learned cooking of various Vegetarian foods due to fasting periods and due to a hippie girlfriend that wouldn't be actually that hard either but alas I'm fairly sloth. For now I just try eat more Vegetarian foods instead of categorical change of diet.

[mike]

It didn't seem to me that the OP is not trying to suggest that ALL of Orthodox should be vegan, but considering there are many fathers and monks who have chosen to remain vegetarian and vegan all their lives, is it not at the least Orthodox to say folks have the option?

Vegetarianism isn't fasting.

[JamesRottnek]

There is an important fact you seem not to be taking into account: Humans are not just another animal; we are above the animals, better than them, and have dominion over them.  Furthermore, God explicitly permitted humanity to consume animal flesh, after He killed most everyone on the planet with a flood.

We are not to be an example to the animal kingdom because we are not mere animals; rather we are to exercise dominion over the animals and we are permitted to take them as our food.

[amartin]

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?

Congratulations! I am very happy for your repentance. Vegetarianism is the only way.

[LBK]

Congratulations! I am very happy for your repentance. Vegetarianism is the only way.

Christ ate fish, and, being an observer of the Law, He would have eaten Passover lamb more than once during His time on earth.

[Νεκτάριος]

I'm not sure if people are arguing past each other or not. 

Simply because we are able to eat meat doesn't mean it is the best option.  While I'm not currently a vegetarian (although I'm on that path, will probably end up there eventually), the quantity of mean consumption (and the quality of the meat) in many Western diets is shockingly high.  In general this is pretty harmful for the planet.  I'd think as Christians our goal ought to be moderation.  Then there are health and well being issues.  Everyone is different, but since I've cut meat back to once a week as a maximum I've felt *much* better.  It's also increased my enjoyment of meat when I do eat it.  Back to the issue at hand - how is being a vegetarian incompatible with Christianity?  Why does the fact that the Lord ate fish mean that everyone else is obliged to?  Does this obligation include those with allergies to seafood?  To call being a vegetarian heretical is what baffles me.  What if I want to be a teetotaler, is that also heretical?   

[katherine 2001]

There is a huge difference between moderation and abstaining from something.  Moderation is when you still eat the food but eat less of it.  Protein is necessary for a balanced diet and for your health.  I eat meat, poultry and fish every day except for fasting periods, but it is only 3 or 4 oz.  I eat more poultry than I do red meat.  I also usually have a couple of servings of dairy. If you're going to be vegetarian, you need to do the research to know what foods to combine together so that you get all the nutrients you need. 

By the way, if you are a monk (especially living in a monastery), you will be a vegetarian.  I don't think the monks really get to choose whether they are going to be vegetarians or meat eaters.  If you agree to become a monk, then you agree to be a vegetarian.

[Ansgar]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.

[Νεκτάριος]

There is a huge difference between moderation and abstaining from something.  Moderation is when you still eat the food but eat less of it.  Protein is necessary for a balanced diet and for your health.  I eat meat, poultry and fish every day except for fasting periods, but it is only 3 or 4 oz.  I eat more poultry than I do red meat.  I also usually have a couple of servings of dairy. If you're going to be vegetarian, you need to do the research to know what foods to combine together so that you get all the nutrients you need.

There are tons of other sources of protein besides meat.  Seems like marketing from the meat industry that so many people are convinced it is nearly impossible to get enough protein from non-meat sources.  If you avoid meat but still eat seafood, you'll have absolutely no problems with creating a properly balanced diet.  If you go vegan you start to run into some grey areas, IMO.     

By the way, if you are a monk (especially living in a monastery), you will be a vegetarian.  I don't think the monks really get to choose whether they are going to be vegetarians or meat eaters.  If you agree to become a monk, then you agree to be a vegetarian.

Monks eat seafood.  

[Νεκτάριος]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.

You could stick with seafood and only buy from producers that practice sustainable methods.  Then you could have pickled herring on rye bread.  What's more Scandinavian than that?   

[Ansgar]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.

You could stick with seafood and only buy from producers that practice sustainable methods.  Then you could have pickled herring on rye bread.  What's more Scandinavian than that?   

You're quite right, however, danish society have changed so that we now eat more pork and beef than seafood, which is sad since I really love fish.

[JamesRottnek]

I'm not sure if people are arguing past each other or not. 

Simply because we are able to eat meat doesn't mean it is the best option.  While I'm not currently a vegetarian (although I'm on that path, will probably end up there eventually), the quantity of mean consumption (and the quality of the meat) in many Western diets is shockingly high.  In general this is pretty harmful for the planet.  I'd think as Christians our goal ought to be moderation.  Then there are health and well being issues.  Everyone is different, but since I've cut meat back to once a week as a maximum I've felt *much* better.  It's also increased my enjoyment of meat when I do eat it.  Back to the issue at hand - how is being a vegetarian incompatible with Christianity?  Why does the fact that the Lord ate fish mean that everyone else is obliged to?  Does this obligation include those with allergies to seafood?  To call being a vegetarian heretical is what baffles me.  What if I want to be a teetotaler, is that also heretical?   

I'm most concerned with how the OP seems to think we need to be ethical role models for animals, and how he doesn't know if he wants to eat meat any more because if "some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat" he wouldn't like it.  To me, both of those statements show a serious misunderstanding of the differences between human beings and animals.

[Nicene]

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity, I believe many monks are, and by compatable I would say so on a deeper level, that is death is something abhored in Christianity, so perhaps it is only consistent not to eat meat and embrace life, all forms of life as having inherit value and their death as something as a result of the fallen world. However we are also told that eating meat is permissable and not a sin, perhaps due to our own weakness and fallen nature God allows this. So long as you don't act pharisaical about it, go for it, that is if you feel you can keep it. Good luck with that, I luv chicken.

[mike]

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity,

Canon 14. As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders.

Canon 2. If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat (without blood, and such as is not meat that has been sacrificed to idols or strangled) with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.

Canon LI.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or flesh, or wine, not by way of religious restraint, but as abhorring them, forgetting that God made all things very good, and that he made man male and female, and blaspheming the work of creation, let him be corrected, or else be deposed, and cast out of the Church. In like manner a layman.

Canon LIII.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, does not on festival days partake of flesh and wine, from an abhorrence of them, and not out of religious restraint, let him be deposed, as being seared in his own conscience, and being the cause of offence to many.

http://sites.google.com/site/canonsoc/home

That means: not eating meat as fasting or as a mean for fighting for animal rights - OK, not eating meat because it's not right and animal shall not be eaten - not OK.

[vamrat]

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity,

Canon 14. As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders.

Canon 2. If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat (without blood, and such as is not meat that has been sacrificed to idols or strangled) with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.

Canon LI.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or flesh, or wine, not by way of religious restraint, but as abhorring them, forgetting that God made all things very good, and that he made man male and female, and blaspheming the work of creation, let him be corrected, or else be deposed, and cast out of the Church. In like manner a layman.

Canon LIII.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, does not on festival days partake of flesh and wine, from an abhorrence of them, and not out of religious restraint, let him be deposed, as being seared in his own conscience, and being the cause of offence to many.

http://sites.google.com/site/canonsoc/home

That means: not eating meat as fasting or as a mean for fighting for animal rights - OK, not eating meat because it's not right and animal shall not be eaten - not OK.

Council of Ancyra: Before the ";" it looks like it is OK for them to abstain "if they so wish".  But if they are picky and won't even eat veggies cooked with it...then they are wrong.  In short, since St. Patrick's day is in the fast, and your homeboys cook corned beef and cabbage, if you don't eat the cabbage, carrots, and potatoes, you are naughty.  Good to know!

Gangraean Council: Don't criticize anyone else and you should be cool.  I think the Lord says something about removing the plank first, so this is pretty much just specifying something that we should already be doing.

[primuspilus]

To quote the wise and all-knowing Anthony Bourdain, "Vegetarianism, outside of India, is nothing more than a first world luxury."

PP

[Jetavan]

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.

With that said, if one goes vegan (fruits, vegatables, seeds, nuts), there is the real likelihood of B12 deficiency, so that has to be dealt with. See http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12 ; and Gabriel Cousens, http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12article.html.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.

Really? I had always understood the institution of meat to the human diet as a similar punishment which the Serpent received ("you shall eat dust all the days of your life" Genesis 3:14-19).  After all, human beings have to kill and butcher animals to eat them.  A life is lost for ourselves to gain the sustenance for life.  Further, at least in the Old World, and today in Ethiopia still, Christians only eat meat which is butchered in a certain manner, having been ritualistically slaughtered and prayed over. In the Old Testament, practically all meat meals were "offerings" to the Lord accompanied by prayers.  This is also how saying "Grace" has such significance as a meal of meat is the gift of an otherwise sacrificed life, just as Christ gave us His life on the Cross.  So I had always understood carnivorousness as punishment to the world as a consequence of the introduction of Sin after the Fall. What do the Fathers say?

 Interestingly enough, the narrative of Noah has him bringing several of the "clean" animals which were both edible and more importantly allowed to be offered to God according to the Law.  Now the Law had not yet been instituted, but we do know that animal sacrifice pre-dates the Law and Moses, rather Moses codified and centralizes animal sacrifice.  However, again, the Hebrews ritually ate the meat from these offerings, so was Noah eating meat before coming on the Ark because of animal sacrifice, or were people sacrificing animals they didn't eat? If that is the case, then in a flipped way, you are right, because it is a privilege to eat the meat  from an animal ritualistically sacrificed to the Lord.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Jetavan]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.

Really? I had always understood the institution of meat to the human diet as a similar punishment which the Serpent received ("you shall eat dust all the days of your life" Genesis 3:14-19).  After all, human beings have to kill and butcher animals to eat them.  A life is lost for ourselves to gain the sustenance for life.  Further, at least in the Old World, and today in Ethiopia still, Christians only eat meat which is butchered in a certain manner, having been ritualistically slaughtered and prayed over. In the Old Testament, practically all meat meals were "offerings" to the Lord accompanied by prayers.  This is also how saying "Grace" has such significance as a meal of meat is the gift of an otherwise sacrificed life, just as Christ gave us His life on the Cross.  So I had always understood carnivorousness as punishment to the world as a consequence of the introduction of Sin after the Fall. What do the Fathers say?

 Interestingly enough, the narrative of Noah has him bringing several of the "clean" animals which were both edible and more importantly allowed to be offered to God according to the Law.  Now the Law had not yet been instituted, but we do know that animal sacrifice pre-dates the Law and Moses, rather Moses codified and centralizes animal sacrifice.  However, again, the Hebrews ritually ate the meat from these offerings, so was Noah eating meat before coming on the Ark because of animal sacrifice, or were people sacrificing animals they didn't eat? If that is the case, then in a flipped way, you are right, because it is a privilege to eat the meat  from an animal ritualistically sacrificed to the Lord.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

In Genesis 2, God makes animals, but as companions, not as food, for Man. For food, Man was given the vegetation:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

One can sacrifice animals without eating them. Perhaps the "clean" animals on the ark referred to their suitability for sacrifice?

Chapter 9 describes how Man is now allowed to eat meat:

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

From a Church Father, Basil the Great:

"In the earthly paradise,
there was no wine,
no one sacrificed animals
and no one ate meat."

"As long as one lives frugally
the luck of the house
will increase;
the animals will be safe;
no blood will be shed,
and no animal will be killed.
The cook’s knife will be useless;
the table will only be set with fruits
which nature offers to us,
and one will be
satisfied with that."

From the epistles of Basilius the Great
(329 - 379), cited from Carl Anders Skriver,
"The Forgotten Beginnings of Creation and Christianity" p. 161

More on Basil the Great and Man's original diet.

[yeshuaisiam]

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?

Not hippy nonsense.  It's healthy for you.  However, it has nothing to do with spirituality in my opinion.   There are also healthy meats you can eat as well, and other animal products.  The Jews had Kosher laws, which specifically were written by God allowing people to eat meat.   The Christians also ate meat, and Christ divided the fish...

However, it is healthy.  Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are.   But nothing to do with religion/spirituality.

[primuspilus]

Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are

Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are

Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

That is not fair.  It is not that EVERY person who lives vegan is inherently younger looking or healthier, just that many are.  I honestly don't think it is eating meat or a lack there of that makes some folks healthier, it is just being conscious about what we eat in general.  Folks who eat balanced diet most of their lives live healthier.  Folks who eat better, or particularly who eat certain diets (such as vegan, or flexitarian) generally are more concerted and conscious about what, when, and how they eat.  This can translate into better sense of individual culpability with health in relation to diet.  Folks realize we can harm ourselves by what eat, or what we don't eat, and begin to make better decisions as a habit.  This prolongs both life and health.  Modern medicine can prolong years on a person who is not healthy in the slightest, and a healthy diet can do nothing to prolong the life of a person whose DNA has destined them vulnerable to this or that disease.  So it is nature and nurture.  Nurture your body doesn't imply strictly vegan, but many folks who are vegan tend to have a lot of self-control and concern for their bodies which can prolong life and increase health.  Its a matter then of food culture. Further, there is of course the simple roll of the dice. Some people smoke 75 years and die peacefully in their sleep (some of my relatives), others smoke and die horrifying, crippling, and painful deaths (some others of my relatives, the majority of smokers).  Isn't Life a Trip?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[primuspilus]

I know that its not fair. Im just trolling

PP

[Anastasios]

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 

Stay on topic, please (You know I would not encourage 16 year olds to be belligerent in their demands!)

[yeshuaisiam]

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Youtube the raw food trucker and check out the man's results.  Amazing stuff.

We tried raw "vegan" for a while.  I was incredibly healthy for the months that I did it.  But then...... I smelled some buttered lamb chops with rosemary...  haha

Right now I eat about 70-80% raw (total diet).  All fruits and veggies I really try hard to eat raw.   But I eat meats too.

Like if we make a pizza, we do it "upside down.  We'll bake the cheese on a crust, and put raw tomatoes on top (and spices), then spinach, and raw onions.  Top it with parmesan cheese.  Much healthier, and still very good.

[biro]

You realize anybody can put anything they want on YouTube? It's not exactly peer-reviewed research in a serious journal.

[JamesRottnek]

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.

[Timon]

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!

[primuspilus]

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!

[vamrat]

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!

Ordo Hereticus.  Very nice.  Will you be expunging the heresy with SOBs or will you be inducting Space Marines?  Might I suggest the Black Templars? 

[Schultz]

Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are

Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

I've always found this to be very disingenuous, as two can play at this game.



Left, Christina Ricci, meat eater, 32.  Right, Olivia Wilde, vegan, 29. 

[primuspilus]

Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are

Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

I've always found this to be very disingenuous, as two can play at this game.



Left, Christina Ricci, meat eater, 32.  Right, Olivia Wilde, vegan, 29. 

Of course it'sdisingenuous, thats why I did it 


PP

[vamrat]

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.

I dated a vegan for several years (she only was vegan for the last year or so).  I have also been around vegans and vegetarians.  Despite their reputation for being off the deep end I often find the backlash against them to be far more ridiculous than anything they initially said.

One time the ex was writing on a forum and mentioned some vegan recipes and the response was immediate, vulgar, and pretty much retarded.

Here is a fictional example of how conversations regarding veganism tend to go:

OP - "Last night I made a pizza using soy cheese with lots of yummy veggies.  It was delicious!"

Responder 1 - "Why the heck did you use soy cheese instead of mozzarella?"

OP - "I am vegan."

Responder 1 - "Oh great.  Another vegan preaching to us."

Responder 2 - "I get tired of all these stupid f****** hippy scum teling us we are all somewhat less than they becuz we choose to eat a rational, human f****** diet!  Grow up and stop pushign your stupidity on the rest of us!"

OP -  "All I was trying to do was tell you about my new recipe!"

Responder 3 - "Tonight I think I am going to eat tasty animals...specifically a cute baby lamb whose head I cut off with a rusty axe.  I was so hungry I began tearing it's flesh off with my very teeth!"

Responder 4 - "OMFG!!!  You don't eat BACON!  BACON is f****** delicious!  You are the stupidist persun I have evar nown!!!!!!!!!!"

OP -  




Also, the Bacon meme is overdone.  I love bacon.  It tastes great.  This whole "bacon can go on anything...even cake" BS has made me dislike it.  I have eaten it maybe three times since the end of Lent.  

[Schultz]

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.

I dated a vegan for several years (she only was vegan for the last year or so).  I have also been around vegans and vegetarians.  Despite their reputation for being off the deep end I often find the backlash against them to be far more ridiculous than anything they initially said.

One time the ex was writing on a forum and mentioned some vegan recipes and the response was immediate, vulgar, and pretty much retarded.

Here is a fictional example of how conversations regarding veganism tend to go:

OP - "Last night I made a pizza using soy cheese with lots of yummy veggies.  It was delicious!"

Responder 1 - "Why the heck did you use soy cheese instead of mozzarella?"

OP - "I am vegan."

Responder 1 - "Oh great.  Another vegan preaching to us."

Responder 2 - "I get tired of all these stupid f****** hippy scum teling us we are all somewhat less than they becuz we choose to eat a rational, human f****** diet!  Grow up and stop pushign your stupidity on the rest of us!"

OP -  "All I was trying to do was tell you about my new recipe!"

Responder 3 - "Tonight I think I am going to eat tasty animals...specifically a cute baby lamb whose head I cut off with a rusty axe.  I was so hungry I began tearing it's flesh off with my very teeth!"

Responder 4 - "OMFG!!!  You don't eat BACON!  BACON is f****** delicious!  You are the stupidist persun I have evar nown!!!!!!!!!!"

OP -  




Also, the Bacon meme is overdone.  I love bacon.  It tastes great.  This whole "bacon can go on anything...even cake" BS has made me dislike it.  I have eaten it maybe three times since the end of Lent.  

I agree.  One of my best friends is simply a vegetarian.  He watched "Food, Inc." and just got a bad taste in his mouth, so to speak, about eating meat.  He doesn't preach it.  He just doesn't feel right "eating his friends."

Another friend of ours is a big weight lifter.  He's always on about protein this and protein that.  I often talk to the vegetarian friend about recipes and whatnot because, well, by trying to be an Orthodox Christian I'm vegan half the year.  The weight lifting friend *always* has to talk about how we don't get enough protein and how it's unnatural for us to not eat meat, even when he's not involved in the conversation.  He gets, at points, belligerent and quite obnoxious. 

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.