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Author Topic: I'm Considering Vegetarianism...  (Read 2646 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 11, 2012, 09:33:02 PM »

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2012, 09:43:59 PM »

I thought I couldn't give up meat for the great fast, either (this year was my first), but I did. Just the same, I don't think that what you eat or don't eat is a matter of "exhibiting greater behavior or ethics". It's what comes out of the mouth of a man that defiles him, remember?
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 09:50:37 PM »

Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics.

Christ ate fish.

Quote
I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures?

Other creatures are not humans.

Quote
Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement?

What do you mean? How animals can advance in their "ethics"? Since when animals have ethics?
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 10:14:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is no shame in that, plenty of folks have decided not to eat meat or even animal products.  Many Rastafari brothers and sisters live strictly ital, which is purely vegan with an emphasis and food consciousness.  All food is a gift from God, so we must be conscious of how we eat.  Like many priests my own included have said, "Do you eat to live, or live to eat?"  In Rastafari, we eat to live, and we want to live good, so we eat good.  Many monks and Christians have also felt it good to not eat meat.  There is nothing wrong with their example.  Like Apostle Paul said, "Therefore, if food makes my brother to stumble, I will eat no meat while the world stands, lest I make my brother to stumble."  Further, there are plenty of ethical reasons not to eat meat in the modern world, it is an ecological and moral disaster both how the animals and environments are treated! I say if God gives you the strength, more power to you!

I prefer to go with the Orthodox calendar of seasonal veganism through fasting culture.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 11:29:03 PM »

Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics.

Christ ate fish.

Very good point!!
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2012, 12:22:14 AM »

The thought has crossed my mind on many occasions.  It is only a lack of discipline that has kept me from it.
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 12:38:47 AM »

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 01:02:37 AM »

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 01:04:31 AM »

God gave us marijuana.
But did God instruct us to light it and smoke it?
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 01:12:46 AM »

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 

I have to agree with Nektarios on this one, on both points.
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 01:32:31 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.



It didn't seem to me that the OP is not trying to suggest that ALL of Orthodox should be vegan, but considering there are many fathers and monks who have chosen to remain vegetarian and vegan all their lives, is it not at the least Orthodox to say folks have the option?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 02:07:22 AM »

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid.

This is why I'm constantly considering switching Vegetarianism. Having learned cooking of various Vegetarian foods due to fasting periods and due to a hippie girlfriend that wouldn't be actually that hard either but alas I'm fairly sloth. For now I just try eat more Vegetarian foods instead of categorical change of diet.
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 04:58:35 AM »

It didn't seem to me that the OP is not trying to suggest that ALL of Orthodox should be vegan, but considering there are many fathers and monks who have chosen to remain vegetarian and vegan all their lives, is it not at the least Orthodox to say folks have the option?

Vegetarianism isn't fasting.
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 05:05:49 AM »

There is an important fact you seem not to be taking into account: Humans are not just another animal; we are above the animals, better than them, and have dominion over them.  Furthermore, God explicitly permitted humanity to consume animal flesh, after He killed most everyone on the planet with a flood.

We are not to be an example to the animal kingdom because we are not mere animals; rather we are to exercise dominion over the animals and we are permitted to take them as our food.
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 05:05:49 AM »

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?

Congratulations! I am very happy for your repentance. Vegetarianism is the only way.
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 06:35:16 AM »


Congratulations! I am very happy for your repentance. Vegetarianism is the only way.

Christ ate fish, and, being an observer of the Law, He would have eaten Passover lamb more than once during His time on earth.
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2012, 07:31:51 AM »

I'm not sure if people are arguing past each other or not. 

Simply because we are able to eat meat doesn't mean it is the best option.  While I'm not currently a vegetarian (although I'm on that path, will probably end up there eventually), the quantity of mean consumption (and the quality of the meat) in many Western diets is shockingly high.  In general this is pretty harmful for the planet.  I'd think as Christians our goal ought to be moderation.  Then there are health and well being issues.  Everyone is different, but since I've cut meat back to once a week as a maximum I've felt *much* better.  It's also increased my enjoyment of meat when I do eat it.  Back to the issue at hand - how is being a vegetarian incompatible with Christianity?  Why does the fact that the Lord ate fish mean that everyone else is obliged to?  Does this obligation include those with allergies to seafood?  To call being a vegetarian heretical is what baffles me.  What if I want to be a teetotaler, is that also heretical?   
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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 07:49:58 AM »

There is a huge difference between moderation and abstaining from something.  Moderation is when you still eat the food but eat less of it.  Protein is necessary for a balanced diet and for your health.  I eat meat, poultry and fish every day except for fasting periods, but it is only 3 or 4 oz.  I eat more poultry than I do red meat.  I also usually have a couple of servings of dairy. If you're going to be vegetarian, you need to do the research to know what foods to combine together so that you get all the nutrients you need. 

By the way, if you are a monk (especially living in a monastery), you will be a vegetarian.  I don't think the monks really get to choose whether they are going to be vegetarians or meat eaters.  If you agree to become a monk, then you agree to be a vegetarian.
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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 07:56:18 AM »

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.
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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2012, 07:56:45 AM »

There is a huge difference between moderation and abstaining from something.  Moderation is when you still eat the food but eat less of it.  Protein is necessary for a balanced diet and for your health.  I eat meat, poultry and fish every day except for fasting periods, but it is only 3 or 4 oz.  I eat more poultry than I do red meat.  I also usually have a couple of servings of dairy. If you're going to be vegetarian, you need to do the research to know what foods to combine together so that you get all the nutrients you need.

There are tons of other sources of protein besides meat.  Seems like marketing from the meat industry that so many people are convinced it is nearly impossible to get enough protein from non-meat sources.  If you avoid meat but still eat seafood, you'll have absolutely no problems with creating a properly balanced diet.  If you go vegan you start to run into some grey areas, IMO.     

By the way, if you are a monk (especially living in a monastery), you will be a vegetarian.  I don't think the monks really get to choose whether they are going to be vegetarians or meat eaters.  If you agree to become a monk, then you agree to be a vegetarian.

Monks eat seafood.  
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2012, 07:58:56 AM »

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.

You could stick with seafood and only buy from producers that practice sustainable methods.  Then you could have pickled herring on rye bread.  What's more Scandinavian than that?   Wink
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2012, 08:06:04 AM »

Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept of eating meat, however, I too disagree with the treatment of animals so I have made the plan that when I move out, I will start reducing the amount of meat I eat and try buying meat from from animals who have been treated well.
I have comsidered vegetarianism many times but it would be very difficult since it would exclude about 75 % of an average danish meal.

You could stick with seafood and only buy from producers that practice sustainable methods.  Then you could have pickled herring on rye bread.  What's more Scandinavian than that?   Wink

You're quite right, however, danish society have changed so that we now eat more pork and beef than seafood, which is sad since I really love fish.
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2012, 12:18:52 AM »

I'm not sure if people are arguing past each other or not. 

Simply because we are able to eat meat doesn't mean it is the best option.  While I'm not currently a vegetarian (although I'm on that path, will probably end up there eventually), the quantity of mean consumption (and the quality of the meat) in many Western diets is shockingly high.  In general this is pretty harmful for the planet.  I'd think as Christians our goal ought to be moderation.  Then there are health and well being issues.  Everyone is different, but since I've cut meat back to once a week as a maximum I've felt *much* better.  It's also increased my enjoyment of meat when I do eat it.  Back to the issue at hand - how is being a vegetarian incompatible with Christianity?  Why does the fact that the Lord ate fish mean that everyone else is obliged to?  Does this obligation include those with allergies to seafood?  To call being a vegetarian heretical is what baffles me.  What if I want to be a teetotaler, is that also heretical?   

I'm most concerned with how the OP seems to think we need to be ethical role models for animals, and how he doesn't know if he wants to eat meat any more because if "some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat" he wouldn't like it.  To me, both of those statements show a serious misunderstanding of the differences between human beings and animals.
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 08:29:02 AM »

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity, I believe many monks are, and by compatable I would say so on a deeper level, that is death is something abhored in Christianity, so perhaps it is only consistent not to eat meat and embrace life, all forms of life as having inherit value and their death as something as a result of the fallen world. However we are also told that eating meat is permissable and not a sin, perhaps due to our own weakness and fallen nature God allows this. So long as you don't act pharisaical about it, go for it, that is if you feel you can keep it. Good luck with that, I luv chicken.
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2012, 10:32:49 AM »

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity,

Quote from: Council at Ancyra (314)
Canon 14. As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders.

Quote from: Gangraean Council (340)
Canon 2. If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat (without blood, and such as is not meat that has been sacrificed to idols or strangled) with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.

Quote from: Canons of the Holy Apostles
Canon LI.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or flesh, or wine, not by way of religious restraint, but as abhorring them, forgetting that God made all things very good, and that he made man male and female, and blaspheming the work of creation, let him be corrected, or else be deposed, and cast out of the Church. In like manner a layman.

Canon LIII.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, does not on festival days partake of flesh and wine, from an abhorrence of them, and not out of religious restraint, let him be deposed, as being seared in his own conscience, and being the cause of offence to many.

http://sites.google.com/site/canonsoc/home

That means: not eating meat as fasting or as a mean for fighting for animal rights - OK, not eating meat because it's not right and animal shall not be eaten - not OK.
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 11:06:27 AM »

Vegetarianism is certaintly compatable with Christianity,

Quote from: Council at Ancyra (314)
Canon 14. As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders.

Quote from: Gangraean Council (340)
Canon 2. If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat (without blood, and such as is not meat that has been sacrificed to idols or strangled) with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.

Quote from: Canons of the Holy Apostles
Canon LI.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or flesh, or wine, not by way of religious restraint, but as abhorring them, forgetting that God made all things very good, and that he made man male and female, and blaspheming the work of creation, let him be corrected, or else be deposed, and cast out of the Church. In like manner a layman.

Canon LIII.
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, does not on festival days partake of flesh and wine, from an abhorrence of them, and not out of religious restraint, let him be deposed, as being seared in his own conscience, and being the cause of offence to many.

http://sites.google.com/site/canonsoc/home

That means: not eating meat as fasting or as a mean for fighting for animal rights - OK, not eating meat because it's not right and animal shall not be eaten - not OK.

Council of Ancyra: Before the ";" it looks like it is OK for them to abstain "if they so wish".  But if they are picky and won't even eat veggies cooked with it...then they are wrong.  In short, since St. Patrick's day is in the fast, and your homeboys cook corned beef and cabbage, if you don't eat the cabbage, carrots, and potatoes, you are naughty.  Good to know!

Gangraean Council: Don't criticize anyone else and you should be cool.  I think the Lord says something about removing the plank first, so this is pretty much just specifying something that we should already be doing.
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 11:09:02 AM »

To quote the wise and all-knowing Anthony Bourdain, "Vegetarianism, outside of India, is nothing more than a first world luxury."

PP
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 12:43:02 PM »

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.

With that said, if one goes vegan (fruits, vegatables, seeds, nuts), there is the real likelihood of B12 deficiency, so that has to be dealt with. See http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12 ; and Gabriel Cousens, http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12article.html.
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 01:30:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.


Really? I had always understood the institution of meat to the human diet as a similar punishment which the Serpent received ("you shall eat dust all the days of your life" Genesis 3:14-19).  After all, human beings have to kill and butcher animals to eat them.  A life is lost for ourselves to gain the sustenance for life.  Further, at least in the Old World, and today in Ethiopia still, Christians only eat meat which is butchered in a certain manner, having been ritualistically slaughtered and prayed over. In the Old Testament, practically all meat meals were "offerings" to the Lord accompanied by prayers.  This is also how saying "Grace" has such significance as a meal of meat is the gift of an otherwise sacrificed life, just as Christ gave us His life on the Cross.  So I had always understood carnivorousness as punishment to the world as a consequence of the introduction of Sin after the Fall. What do the Fathers say?

 Interestingly enough, the narrative of Noah has him bringing several of the "clean" animals which were both edible and more importantly allowed to be offered to God according to the Law.  Now the Law had not yet been instituted, but we do know that animal sacrifice pre-dates the Law and Moses, rather Moses codified and centralizes animal sacrifice.  However, again, the Hebrews ritually ate the meat from these offerings, so was Noah eating meat before coming on the Ark because of animal sacrifice, or were people sacrificing animals they didn't eat? If that is the case, then in a flipped way, you are right, because it is a privilege to eat the meat  from an animal ritualistically sacrificed to the Lord.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 01:36:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Vegetarianism (and maybe even veganism) was the diet God originally intended for humanity. (See Genesis 2ff.) Eating meat was a "reward" for rescuing the animals on Noah's Ark.


Really? I had always understood the institution of meat to the human diet as a similar punishment which the Serpent received ("you shall eat dust all the days of your life" Genesis 3:14-19).  After all, human beings have to kill and butcher animals to eat them.  A life is lost for ourselves to gain the sustenance for life.  Further, at least in the Old World, and today in Ethiopia still, Christians only eat meat which is butchered in a certain manner, having been ritualistically slaughtered and prayed over. In the Old Testament, practically all meat meals were "offerings" to the Lord accompanied by prayers.  This is also how saying "Grace" has such significance as a meal of meat is the gift of an otherwise sacrificed life, just as Christ gave us His life on the Cross.  So I had always understood carnivorousness as punishment to the world as a consequence of the introduction of Sin after the Fall. What do the Fathers say?

 Interestingly enough, the narrative of Noah has him bringing several of the "clean" animals which were both edible and more importantly allowed to be offered to God according to the Law.  Now the Law had not yet been instituted, but we do know that animal sacrifice pre-dates the Law and Moses, rather Moses codified and centralizes animal sacrifice.  However, again, the Hebrews ritually ate the meat from these offerings, so was Noah eating meat before coming on the Ark because of animal sacrifice, or were people sacrificing animals they didn't eat? If that is the case, then in a flipped way, you are right, because it is a privilege to eat the meat  from an animal ritualistically sacrificed to the Lord.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
In Genesis 2, God makes animals, but as companions, not as food, for Man. For food, Man was given the vegetation:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

One can sacrifice animals without eating them. Perhaps the "clean" animals on the ark referred to their suitability for sacrifice?

Chapter 9 describes how Man is now allowed to eat meat:

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.


From a Church Father, Basil the Great:

"In the earthly paradise,
there was no wine,
no one sacrificed animals
and no one ate meat."

"As long as one lives frugally
the luck of the house
will increase;
the animals will be safe;
no blood will be shed,
and no animal will be killed.
The cook’s knife will be useless;
the table will only be set with fruits
which nature offers to us,
and one will be
satisfied with that."

From the epistles of Basilius the Great
(329 - 379), cited from Carl Anders Skriver,
"The Forgotten Beginnings of Creation and Christianity" p. 161


More on Basil the Great and Man's original diet.
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 04:46:51 PM »

Well, you guys can laugh at me. But, I'm honestly considering it. Being a human and crafted in the image of the Divine I feel like I ought to start behaving as such and exhibiting greater behavior and ethics. I know that I would not like it if some other species in the animal kingdom was harvesting humans in farms to eat, so if I condemn this action, then why do I go along with it when it comes to other creatures? Shouldn't I live out my standard as an example to the animal kingdom and as an upholder of ethical advancement? Does all of this make sense or is it just hippy nonsense? Either way, how does one adapt to vegetarianism? I grew up a carnivor in a culture where a meal is not even considered a meal unless it contains meat. I either eat ribs, steak, burgers, hot links or some meat produce at least once a week. There is no way I could adapt to vegetarianism, yet, I still feel like I ought to. Thoughts?

Not hippy nonsense.  It's healthy for you.  However, it has nothing to do with spirituality in my opinion.   There are also healthy meats you can eat as well, and other animal products.  The Jews had Kosher laws, which specifically were written by God allowing people to eat meat.   The Christians also ate meat, and Christ divided the fish...

However, it is healthy.  Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are.   But nothing to do with religion/spirituality.
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 04:54:24 PM »

Quote
Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are




Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 05:19:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are




Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

That is not fair.  It is not that EVERY person who lives vegan is inherently younger looking or healthier, just that many are.  I honestly don't think it is eating meat or a lack there of that makes some folks healthier, it is just being conscious about what we eat in general.  Folks who eat balanced diet most of their lives live healthier.  Folks who eat better, or particularly who eat certain diets (such as vegan, or flexitarian) generally are more concerted and conscious about what, when, and how they eat.  This can translate into better sense of individual culpability with health in relation to diet.  Folks realize we can harm ourselves by what eat, or what we don't eat, and begin to make better decisions as a habit.  This prolongs both life and health.  Modern medicine can prolong years on a person who is not healthy in the slightest, and a healthy diet can do nothing to prolong the life of a person whose DNA has destined them vulnerable to this or that disease.  So it is nature and nurture.  Nurture your body doesn't imply strictly vegan, but many folks who are vegan tend to have a lot of self-control and concern for their bodies which can prolong life and increase health.  Its a matter then of food culture. Further, there is of course the simple roll of the dice. Some people smoke 75 years and die peacefully in their sleep (some of my relatives), others smoke and die horrifying, crippling, and painful deaths (some others of my relatives, the majority of smokers).  Isn't Life a Trip?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 05:21:08 PM »

I know that its not fair. Im just trolling Smiley

PP
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 01:25:46 AM »

Modern vegetarianism is a heretical import from Eastern religions. No Orthodox Christian would have thought about being a vegetarian apart from voluntary ascetic concerns before recent times. God gave us meat to eat, so eat your meat.

I am, however, sympathetic to the "being a good steward" argument and so if you wish to curtail eating meat due to the way animals are processed in the USA, that's a separate consideration and valid. But if someone went to the extent of obtaining free range meat outside of a fasting period and offering you it, you would be sinning to not eat it.

Heresy, really?  How can one's diet be heretical?  God gave us marijuana.  Smoke up, it'd be a sin not to!  God gave us dyes, so dress like it's the 80s!   

The real issue is that if you are 16 and still not preparing your own meals and living with a family you have no right to demand a special diet wether it be the Orthodox "fasting" diet or a vegetarian diet. 

Stay on topic, please Wink (You know I would not encourage 16 year olds to be belligerent in their demands!)
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2012, 08:30:42 PM »

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Youtube the raw food trucker and check out the man's results.  Amazing stuff.

We tried raw "vegan" for a while.  I was incredibly healthy for the months that I did it.  But then...... I smelled some buttered lamb chops with rosemary...  haha

Right now I eat about 70-80% raw (total diet).  All fruits and veggies I really try hard to eat raw.   But I eat meats too.

Like if we make a pizza, we do it "upside down.  We'll bake the cheese on a crust, and put raw tomatoes on top (and spices), then spinach, and raw onions.  Top it with parmesan cheese.  Much healthier, and still very good.
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2012, 08:36:38 PM »

You realize anybody can put anything they want on YouTube? It's not exactly peer-reviewed research in a serious journal.
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2012, 10:35:48 PM »

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2012, 11:15:11 PM »

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2012, 10:44:44 AM »

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!

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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2012, 11:09:49 AM »

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!



Ordo Hereticus.  Very nice.  Will you be expunging the heresy with SOBs or will you be inducting Space Marines?  Might I suggest the Black Templars? 
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2012, 11:11:32 AM »

Quote
Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are




Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

I've always found this to be very disingenuous, as two can play at this game.



Left, Christina Ricci, meat eater, 32.  Right, Olivia Wilde, vegan, 29. 

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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »

Quote
Those people who eat raw vegan look 10 years younger (at least) than they are




Woman on left, health "guru" and vegan. Woman on right, Carnivore. Both 51.

PP

I've always found this to be very disingenuous, as two can play at this game.



Left, Christina Ricci, meat eater, 32.  Right, Olivia Wilde, vegan, 29. 


Of course it'sdisingenuous, thats why I did it  laugh


PP
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« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2012, 11:21:14 AM »

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.

I dated a vegan for several years (she only was vegan for the last year or so).  I have also been around vegans and vegetarians.  Despite their reputation for being off the deep end I often find the backlash against them to be far more ridiculous than anything they initially said.

One time the ex was writing on a forum and mentioned some vegan recipes and the response was immediate, vulgar, and pretty much retarded.

Here is a fictional example of how conversations regarding veganism tend to go:

OP - "Last night I made a pizza using soy cheese with lots of yummy veggies.  It was delicious!"

Responder 1 - "Why the heck did you use soy cheese instead of mozzarella?"

OP - "I am vegan."

Responder 1 - "Oh great.  Another vegan preaching to us."

Responder 2 - "I get tired of all these stupid f****** hippy scum teling us we are all somewhat less than they becuz we choose to eat a rational, human f****** diet!  Grow up and stop pushign your stupidity on the rest of us!"

OP -  "All I was trying to do was tell you about my new recipe!"

Responder 3 - "Tonight I think I am going to eat tasty animals...specifically a cute baby lamb whose head I cut off with a rusty axe.  I was so hungry I began tearing it's flesh off with my very teeth!"

Responder 4 - "OMFG!!!  You don't eat BACON!  BACON is f****** delicious!  You are the stupidist persun I have evar nown!!!!!!!!!!"

OP -  Cry




Also, the Bacon meme is overdone.  I love bacon.  It tastes great.  This whole "bacon can go on anything...even cake" BS has made me dislike it.  I have eaten it maybe three times since the end of Lent.  
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2012, 11:29:08 AM »

Yeah its not all that look 10 years younger, but in general I've noticed that many people who follow the raw vegan diets look incredibly healthy, and also present a very upbeat positive mental attitude.

Most vegans, to me, present a crazy mental attitude, hippyish.

I dated a vegan for several years (she only was vegan for the last year or so).  I have also been around vegans and vegetarians.  Despite their reputation for being off the deep end I often find the backlash against them to be far more ridiculous than anything they initially said.

One time the ex was writing on a forum and mentioned some vegan recipes and the response was immediate, vulgar, and pretty much retarded.

Here is a fictional example of how conversations regarding veganism tend to go:

OP - "Last night I made a pizza using soy cheese with lots of yummy veggies.  It was delicious!"

Responder 1 - "Why the heck did you use soy cheese instead of mozzarella?"

OP - "I am vegan."

Responder 1 - "Oh great.  Another vegan preaching to us."

Responder 2 - "I get tired of all these stupid f****** hippy scum teling us we are all somewhat less than they becuz we choose to eat a rational, human f****** diet!  Grow up and stop pushign your stupidity on the rest of us!"

OP -  "All I was trying to do was tell you about my new recipe!"

Responder 3 - "Tonight I think I am going to eat tasty animals...specifically a cute baby lamb whose head I cut off with a rusty axe.  I was so hungry I began tearing it's flesh off with my very teeth!"

Responder 4 - "OMFG!!!  You don't eat BACON!  BACON is f****** delicious!  You are the stupidist persun I have evar nown!!!!!!!!!!"

OP -  Cry




Also, the Bacon meme is overdone.  I love bacon.  It tastes great.  This whole "bacon can go on anything...even cake" BS has made me dislike it.  I have eaten it maybe three times since the end of Lent.  

I agree.  One of my best friends is simply a vegetarian.  He watched "Food, Inc." and just got a bad taste in his mouth, so to speak, about eating meat.  He doesn't preach it.  He just doesn't feel right "eating his friends."

Another friend of ours is a big weight lifter.  He's always on about protein this and protein that.  I often talk to the vegetarian friend about recipes and whatnot because, well, by trying to be an Orthodox Christian I'm vegan half the year.  The weight lifting friend *always* has to talk about how we don't get enough protein and how it's unnatural for us to not eat meat, even when he's not involved in the conversation.  He gets, at points, belligerent and quite obnoxious. 

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2012, 02:35:39 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2012, 11:19:04 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2012, 11:23:45 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2012, 11:31:21 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!

Based on that Gospel passage, I think we should glorify this guy:
Quote
Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Gimme more fish and pizza, bro!

A Wisconsin man got cut off after he wolfed down a dozen pieces of fish at an all-you-can-eat fish fry, so he did what any red-blooded American would do: he made a picket sign and protested.

source
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2012, 11:38:34 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!

Based on that Gospel passage, I think we should glorify this guy:
Quote
Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Gimme more fish and pizza, bro!

A Wisconsin man got cut off after he wolfed down a dozen pieces of fish at an all-you-can-eat fish fry, so he did what any red-blooded American would do: he made a picket sign and protested.

source

How do you cut someone off at an all-you-can-eat event?  That's criminal.
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2012, 11:39:29 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!

Based on that Gospel passage, I think we should glorify this guy:
Quote
Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Gimme more fish and pizza, bro!

A Wisconsin man got cut off after he wolfed down a dozen pieces of fish at an all-you-can-eat fish fry, so he did what any red-blooded American would do: he made a picket sign and protested.

source

How do you cut someone off at an all-you-can-eat event?  That's criminal.

It's also criminal to not pay your tab.  Read the whole article.
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2012, 11:42:33 AM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!

Based on that Gospel passage, I think we should glorify this guy:
Quote
Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Gimme more fish and pizza, bro!

A Wisconsin man got cut off after he wolfed down a dozen pieces of fish at an all-you-can-eat fish fry, so he did what any red-blooded American would do: he made a picket sign and protested.

source

How do you cut someone off at an all-you-can-eat event?  That's criminal.

It's also criminal to not pay your tab.  Read the whole article.

Ah, well evidently I should read the articles people post, instead of assuming the titles tell the whole story.
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2012, 12:09:11 PM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

In the early days of the Church it would stand to reason that meat wasn't eaten nearly as much as it is today.  Our current levels of consumption are a Godless Latinization.  [/outrage]

In the Gospel of John some of the disciples caught 153 fish. I bet they ate that many fishies on the daily!

Based on that Gospel passage, I think we should glorify this guy:
Quote
Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Gimme more fish and pizza, bro!

A Wisconsin man got cut off after he wolfed down a dozen pieces of fish at an all-you-can-eat fish fry, so he did what any red-blooded American would do: he made a picket sign and protested.

source

How do you cut someone off at an all-you-can-eat event?  That's criminal.

It's all you can eat, not you can eat all!
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2012, 01:56:35 PM »

If God wanted us to eat plants, He would not have made animals taste so good.

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2012, 01:59:50 PM »

For the sake of clarity, meat is not fish!
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2012, 02:03:19 PM »

For the sake of clarity, meat is not fish!

That explains why all I have caught lately are weeds and snags.
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« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2012, 08:22:46 PM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

I'm all for reduced consumption of meat and actually think it's pretty gross how many food items have meat by-products. I recall how even my grandma used to make green beans with bacon in them. I don't see why that is really necessary, personally.

I think reducing consumption of meat for ethical concerns is great, and I try to buy free-range whenever I can and some of my friends have even told me about local farms in the area from whence meat can be obtained and I think it might be nice to see how feasible that route is.

That being said, I do believe we have a "divine right" to eat meat, and I think that vegetarian propaganda is often aggravating and in-your-face, at least here in the USA. Hence I think it's pretty understandable why people have such a negative reaction to it.

One of the reasons that I said that vegetarian arguments can be heretical (I don't think they all are btw, as should now be clear from the above paragraphs) is that often underlying such arguments is the idea that animals are equal to man and deserve the same rights as we do. They aren't and they don't.

I tend to like the approach taken by one of the professors that attends one of my missions; he doesn't ever cook meat for himself, but if someone offers it to him at church he eats it because he does not want to break the social bond created over the shared meal.
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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2012, 11:37:44 PM »

There is an important fact you seem not to be taking into account: Humans are not just another animal; we are above the animals, better than them, and have dominion over them.  Furthermore, God explicitly permitted humanity to consume animal flesh, after He killed most everyone on the planet with a flood.

We are not to be an example to the animal kingdom because we are not mere animals; rather we are to exercise dominion over the animals and we are permitted to take them as our food.


But we are not permitted to abuse and torture them. Dominion is stewardship, not callous domination over the animal kingdom with no ethical considerations. Not to mention that the meat and poutry industries in America create inhumane conditions not only for the animals but  also often for the humans who work in these industries. 


Selam
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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2012, 11:47:51 PM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

I'm all for reduced consumption of meat and actually think it's pretty gross how many food items have meat by-products. I recall how even my grandma used to make green beans with bacon in them. I don't see why that is really necessary, personally.

I think reducing consumption of meat for ethical concerns is great, and I try to buy free-range whenever I can and some of my friends have even told me about local farms in the area from whence meat can be obtained and I think it might be nice to see how feasible that route is.

That being said, I do believe we have a "divine right" to eat meat, and I think that vegetarian propaganda is often aggravating and in-your-face, at least here in the USA. Hence I think it's pretty understandable why people have such a negative reaction to it.

One of the reasons that I said that vegetarian arguments can be heretical (I don't think they all are btw, as should now be clear from the above paragraphs) is that often underlying such arguments is the idea that animals are equal to man and deserve the same rights as we do. They aren't and they don't.

I tend to like the approach taken by one of the professors that attends one of my missions; he doesn't ever cook meat for himself, but if someone offers it to him at church he eats it because he does not want to break the social bond created over the shared meal.

Father Bless,

I think you may be confusing vegetarians with vegans. Vegans do tend to exhibit a cultish fervor about their views, and sometimes they do seem to equate animals with humans. In fact, some vegans elevate animals above humans. Peter Singer is a prime example. He supports abortion because he thinks the earth is overpopulated and thus humans are a threat to the animal kingdom. Such ideas are indeed quite heretical, but these views are not held by the average vegetarian who is merely concerned with being healthy and with the ethical treatment of animals. So, there is a big difference between vegans and vegetarians.

As for "breaking the social bond of a shared meal," I wouldn't expect a recovering alcoholic to accept my offer of a beer simply because he doesn't want to offend me. I can drink my beer and he can have coffee, water, or whatever, and we can have wonderful fellowship all the same. Similarly, if someone offers me bacon or pork chops, I will politely decline but will stay and fellowship with them all the same. If they reject my fellowship simply because I decline their food, then I doubt we have much to fellowship about in the first place.


Selam
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« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »

And this is not an isolated behavior.  More often than not, people express incredulity in the most aggressive terms when they find out I like cooking vegan food, which boggles my mind because I do eat meat and love eating it, but sometimes I would just rather not.  As vamrat pointed out, the backlash is often worse than the vegangelical (tm) propaganda.

We even have a similar thread on OC.net  angel

Even on such a forum where presumably some percentage of the membership doesn't eat meat for large swathes of the year, the mention of vegetarianism (or even reduced consumption of meat!) is met with accusations of heresy and the proclamation that we have a divine right to eat meat.   

I'm all for reduced consumption of meat and actually think it's pretty gross how many food items have meat by-products. I recall how even my grandma used to make green beans with bacon in them. I don't see why that is really necessary, personally.

I think reducing consumption of meat for ethical concerns is great, and I try to buy free-range whenever I can and some of my friends have even told me about local farms in the area from whence meat can be obtained and I think it might be nice to see how feasible that route is.

That being said, I do believe we have a "divine right" to eat meat, and I think that vegetarian propaganda is often aggravating and in-your-face, at least here in the USA. Hence I think it's pretty understandable why people have such a negative reaction to it.

One of the reasons that I said that vegetarian arguments can be heretical (I don't think they all are btw, as should now be clear from the above paragraphs) is that often underlying such arguments is the idea that animals are equal to man and deserve the same rights as we do. They aren't and they don't.

I tend to like the approach taken by one of the professors that attends one of my missions; he doesn't ever cook meat for himself, but if someone offers it to him at church he eats it because he does not want to break the social bond created over the shared meal.

After the clarification, I think we are of the same opinion...which is good.  I make a point of not disagreeing with a priest!
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2012, 04:24:03 AM »

I'm all for reduced consumption of meat and actually think it's pretty gross how many food items have meat by-products. I recall how even my grandma used to make green beans with bacon in them. I don't see why that is really necessary, personally.

I think reducing consumption of meat for ethical concerns is great, and I try to buy free-range whenever I can and some of my friends have even told me about local farms in the area from whence meat can be obtained and I think it might be nice to see how feasible that route is.

Frying vegetables in fat is just wasting anything.  Why through out fat when you could use it for frying something else?  Why not save bones and use them to make stock?  If I roast a chicken on Saturday, I'll probably be eating by products until Wednesday.  Not wasting a scrap is part of the solution towards fighting over-consumption.

If you can buy from local farms, try it out sometime.  Like I mentioned, I don't eat meat on a day to day basis and reserve it for special occasions.  Thus it is worth spending more for quality.  It is also worth experimenting.  A braised beef heart is pretty tasty.  For other cutting out meat might be an option or even becoming a vegetarian.  Regardless, I think the idea of reducing consumption is fundamentally Christian.         

That being said, I do believe we have a "divine right" to eat meat, and I think that vegetarian propaganda is often aggravating and in-your-face, at least here in the USA. Hence I think it's pretty understandable why people have such a negative reaction to it.

It is unfortunate that PETA's extremists have conducted themselves in such a manner as to turn people off.  On the other hand most vegetarians have a myriad of reason ranging from health concerns to taste (believe it or not, there are people who don't like the taste of meat) to ethical issues.  Of course every person who thinks abortion is immoral likes to bomb clinics.     

One of the reasons that I said that vegetarian arguments can be heretical (I don't think they all are btw, as should now be clear from the above paragraphs) is that often underlying such arguments is the idea that animals are equal to man and deserve the same rights as we do. They aren't and they don't.

I suppose I have the right to defecate in my living room.  It's my apartment, why not?  Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the best option.  When I'm making these choices, I try to balance the best nutritional value for my family, environmental impact / sustainability and cost.  I don't think anybody on this thread is equating humans with animals, so to cry heresy is a red herring.  In fact it is ironic you'd intimate that since I remember you had a distinctly negative reaction to my consumption of dog meat due to sentimental reasons.  I'm guessing your enthusiasm for always accepting meat if offered would wane if it were cat, dog or grasshopper. 
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« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2012, 08:05:23 AM »

i was a vegetarian today. had rice with avocado, black beans and tomatoes mixed in for lunch (it was all i could scrounge up today), and then at the bar i had some post-softball game fried mozzarella sticks with a couple of brewskis. 

feel like a million bucks!



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« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2012, 08:10:38 AM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.
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« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2012, 08:16:35 AM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

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« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2012, 12:44:04 PM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.
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« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2012, 04:59:21 PM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

Further proving the point that you can't have a normal discussion about vegetarianism without someone interjecting something about meat they ate.  I ate buckwheat and beets for dinner and had strawberries for dessert.  It was fantastic. 
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« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2012, 05:26:14 PM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

Further proving the point that you can't have a normal discussion about vegetarianism without someone interjecting something about meat they ate.  I ate buckwheat and beets for dinner and had strawberries for dessert.  It was fantastic. 

I had corned beef hash with eggs for lunch.  I am still paying the consequences...so is the poor guy at the office who has to sit near the bathroom.
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« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2012, 05:49:30 PM »

Another friend of ours is a big weight lifter.  He's always on about protein this and protein that.  I often talk to the vegetarian friend about recipes and whatnot because, well, by trying to be an Orthodox Christian I'm vegan half the year.  The weight lifting friend *always* has to talk about how we don't get enough protein and how it's unnatural for us to not eat meat, even when he's not involved in the conversation.  He gets, at points, belligerent and quite obnoxious.

Surprise.
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« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2012, 07:11:27 PM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

Further proving the point that you can't have a normal discussion about vegetarianism without someone interjecting something about meat they ate.  I ate buckwheat and beets for dinner and had strawberries for dessert.  It was fantastic. 

Strawberries are excellent.  I am allergic to them, but I eat them anyway.  What does not kill us only delays the inevitable.
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2012, 01:20:48 AM »

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

Further proving the point that you can't have a normal discussion about vegetarianism without someone interjecting something about meat they ate.  I ate buckwheat and beets for dinner and had strawberries for dessert.  It was fantastic. 

Strawberries are excellent.  I am allergic to them, but I eat them anyway.  What does not kill us only delays the inevitable.

We had an early spring this year, so already lots of good fruit. 
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« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2012, 04:51:07 PM »

Yeah, we had a warm winter and early spring. So we have some awesome local orange peppers which are fantastic skewered........with mushrooms, onions, pork, beef, shrimp marinated in worsteshire and grilled  laugh laugh laugh


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« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2012, 05:46:25 PM »

I am not sure if we had an early Spring, or simply no Winter.

I just thought that you all would like to know that I celebrated this weekend by grilling a pork tenderloin wrapped in bacon and sprinkled with crushed peppercorns.  It was so tender that you could cut it with just a fork.  This was complemented by potato salad covered with a layer of sliced hard boiled eggs seasoned with extra paprika.  Enjoy your plants.

Further proving the point that you can't have a normal discussion about vegetarianism without someone interjecting something about meat they ate.  I ate buckwheat and beets for dinner and had strawberries for dessert.  It was fantastic. 

Strawberries are excellent.  I am allergic to them, but I eat them anyway.  What does not kill us only delays the inevitable.

We had an early spring this year, so already lots of good fruit. 
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