|
elijahmaria
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2012, 12:50:24 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe,  I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
primuspilus
|
|
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2012, 12:52:43 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Is the adoration chapels part of the EC tradition too? PP |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
|
|
|
|
elijahmaria
|
|
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2012, 12:58:59 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Is the adoration chapels part of the EC tradition too? PP No. They are not. 40 Hours is a western tradition. The only time I've seen all night adoration in an eastern Catholic context has been on Holy Thursday night...and then the draped chalice is placed in the center of the altar and with the Royal Doors open. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2012, 01:00:49 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Is the adoration chapels part of the EC tradition too? PP Not in my experience. I will say, though, that one Orthodox priest I knew (himself a convert from Lutheranism) was very much in favor of it and even encouraged people who had access to adoration chapels to go there and pray and "participate". Go figure. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2012, 01:17:45 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Trolling ^^ |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2012, 01:18:14 PM » |
|
Oh geesh. He didn't say anything about icons, hesychasm, the essence/engeries distinction, prayer ropes, the inconstatsis, etc. These all developed out the o the theology of the Church.
Eucharist adoration developed out of the theology of the Church. If you have a problem with worshiping Christ, then that is your issue I suppose, but I honestly think that objections to Adoration are really grounded more in fear of all things Latin, than they are grounded in any theological truth.
Once again, I'm not even objecting to the practice of Eucharistic adoration. I never participated in it as an RC, but I don't care if you and every other RC does. That's fine. My only point is "Christ never said...." is a lousy argument for a given practice. Fine. But that is not our argument for the practice. Our argument for the practice is that the Eucharist is Jesus. "The Christ never said" argument is just in response to your "Christ never said" argument. I don't have a "Christ never said" argument. My first post in this thread was in response to that. So I think we're all in agreement that "Christ never said" arguments don't really help either side here. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
elijahmaria
|
|
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2012, 01:25:18 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Trolling ^^ Paranoid ^^ |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 01:40:17 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. Trolling ^^  How so? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
dzheremi
|
|
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2012, 01:43:21 PM » |
|
So I think we're all in agreement that "Christ never said" arguments don't really help either side here. Indeed, Peter. Do you have an answer to my question about the precious blood? I'd honestly never thought about it before just now, but Papist's post has got me thinking... In the Coptic Orthodox Church, we prostrate ourselves before both the body and the blood (as presented by the priest, not outside of that context) as part of the preparation for communion and give responses "we worship Your holy body..." "...and Your precious blood" and the like, so it seems that separate adoration of either would be extremely unnecessary and something of a demotion from what we already do (in the sense that I do not remember RC adoration involving any physical prescribed action or response, but rather people sitting, looking at the sacrament, praying...I would not begrudge any person who were to wander in for wondering just what adoration is. I don't mean that in a negative sense, only that I don't know what sort of answer I could give that would explain what you do there. This is probably why I could never get into it as an RC, as it was hard to distinguish just sitting there looking at it from actual adoration, even after I had asked our RCIA director what was involved).  Orthodox "adoration" of the Eucharist |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
lost
|
|
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2012, 01:54:00 PM » |
|
But the purpose of the Eucharist is to eat it though....
So is God's. "Come ye and taste and see that the Lord is good" |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2012, 02:17:42 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it.
I thought this ^^ was pretty clear, but I guess I should make it a general practice to be extra-clear. Like many cradle-LCs, I made my first communion in the 2nd grade, but I had already participated in Eucharistic Adoration many times in the years before that. If anyone isn't satisfied with this explanation, please tell me specifically what the problem is. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2012, 02:18:05 PM » |
|
So I think we're all in agreement that "Christ never said" arguments don't really help either side here. Indeed, Peter. Do you have an answer to my question about the precious blood? I'd honestly never thought about it before just now, but Papist's post has got me thinking... I don't have time to look up documents about it, and I'd prefer not to answer in my own words, just to save myself future headaches. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
HabteSelassie
|
|
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2012, 02:33:00 PM » |
|
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Orthodox "adoration" of the Eucharist I adore the Eucharist so much that I am actually a bit spiritually uncomfortable even seeing this picture Sort of like spiritual voyeurism or an invasion of metaphysical privacy. In the Ethiopian tradition, the curtain stays closed when the Priests commune, aside from at Coptic services I am not familiar with witnessing such. stay blessed, habte selassie |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2012, 02:34:56 PM » |
|
Oh geesh. He didn't say anything about icons, hesychasm, the essence/engeries distinction, prayer ropes, the inconstatsis, etc. These all developed out the o the theology of the Church.
Eucharist adoration developed out of the theology of the Church. If you have a problem with worshiping Christ, then that is your issue I suppose, but I honestly think that objections to Adoration are really grounded more in fear of all things Latin, than they are grounded in any theological truth.
Once again, I'm not even objecting to the practice of Eucharistic adoration. I never participated in it as an RC, but I don't care if you and every other RC does. That's fine. My only point is "Christ never said...." is a lousy argument for a given practice. Fine. But that is not our argument for the practice. Our argument for the practice is that the Eucharist is Jesus. "The Christ never said" argument is just in response to your "Christ never said" argument. I don't have a "Christ never said" argument. My first post in this thread was in response to that. One question, though: Using your argument, why is there no adoration of the precious blood, as well? Isn't that also Christ? (Or is there such a thing?) We are supposed to adore the precious blood in mass, as well as the host. I think that there would be complicated logistics with regard to having perpetual adoration of the precious blood, so that it has not developed as a regular practice outside of the mass. It is much easier to provide the host in a monstrance for adoration. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2012, 02:56:31 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. As I was eating lunch, it occurred to me that this ^^ post might make sense in view of your recent statement that there's really no point in talking to me. (I notice you didn't say that there's no point in talking at me.) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2012, 03:06:50 PM » |
|
I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Oh Peter...as much as I'd love to settle you into the center of the ecclesial universe, I must tell you that I was speaking in the context of the Church and the Liturgy and Adoration. Anecdotal pre-and post-mortems do not change the fact that adoration is clearly in the context of liturgical action. M. As I was eating lunch, it occurred to me that this ^^ post might make sense in view of your recent statement that there's really no point in talking to me. (I notice you didn't say that there's no point in talking at me.) I'm still curious about why you think Mary's post was, as you put it, "trolling". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2012, 03:10:10 PM » |
|
J Michael: I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it.
I thought this ^^ was pretty clear, but I guess I should make it a general practice to be extra-clear. Like many cradle-LCs, I made my first communion in the 2nd grade, but I had already participated in Eucharistic Adoration many times in the years before that. If anyone isn't satisfied with this explanation, please tell me specifically what the problem is. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2012, 03:25:15 PM » |
|
J Michael: I'm pretty certain that I prayed before the Blessed Sacrament long before I received it.
I thought this ^^ was pretty clear, but I guess I should make it a general practice to be extra-clear. Like many cradle-LCs, I made my first communion in the 2nd grade, but I had already participated in Eucharistic Adoration many times in the years before that. If anyone isn't satisfied with this explanation, please tell me specifically what the problem is. Now I'm even more confused. It's not that I'm not satisfied with your explanation, or even taking issue with you--I simply do not understand why you think Mary was "trolling". According to wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 "Trolling", therefore, would most likely be considered that which a troll does. If Mary's post was trolling, then I suppose a very large proportion of posts on this board could be considered such. If I'm missing something here, which is quite possible, please point it out and please forgive my obtuseness. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:28:36 PM by J Michael »
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2012, 05:24:43 PM » |
|
Hi J Michael. I did see your question How so?
along with the 2 variations on it, I'm still curious about why you think Mary's post was, as you put it, "trolling".
and Now I'm even more confused. It's not that I'm not satisfied with your explanation, or even taking issue with you--I simply do not understand why you think Mary was "trolling".
I'm sorry if I seemed to be giving you the cold shoulder or made you "even more confused" by not answering your question. (If I may be so bold, can you honestly say that you always answer questions?) Truth is, I'm not going to tell you what to think here. You, and everyone else, can read elijahmaria's statements for yourself. Maybe you'll come to the same conclusion that I did; if not ... well, let's just say I'll survive. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
dzheremi
|
|
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2012, 06:26:19 PM » |
|
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
(picture Habte is uncomfortable with)
Orthodox "adoration" of the Eucharist
I adore the Eucharist so much that I am actually a bit spiritually uncomfortable even seeing this picture Sort of like spiritual voyeurism or an invasion of metaphysical privacy. In the Ethiopian tradition, the curtain stays closed when the Priests commune, aside from at Coptic services I am not familiar with witnessing such. stay blessed, habte selassie Apologies for potentially scandalizing you. But it is indeed a Coptic service, so this is the place you will see it, and we are not shy in our devotions.  Besides, it is good to show our RC brothers and sisters that we too worship the body and blood of Christ, even if it is by a different way than they do. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 06:27:30 PM by dzheremi »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
HabteSelassie
|
|
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2012, 10:42:49 PM » |
|
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
(picture Habte is uncomfortable with)
Apologies for potentially scandalizing you. \
 stay blessed, habte selassie |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 10:44:17 PM by HabteSelassie »
|
Logged
|
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2012, 10:51:23 PM » |
|
(If I may be so bold, can you honestly say that you always answer questions?) I guess, in the case of that question, not answering is a kind of answer. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2012, 01:18:33 PM » |
|
Hi J Michael. I did see your question How so?
along with the 2 variations on it, I'm still curious about why you think Mary's post was, as you put it, "trolling".
and Now I'm even more confused. It's not that I'm not satisfied with your explanation, or even taking issue with you--I simply do not understand why you think Mary was "trolling".
I'm sorry if I seemed to be giving you the cold shoulder or made you "even more confused" by not answering your question. (If I may be so bold, can you honestly say that you always answer questions?) Truth is, I'm not going to tell you what to think here. You, and everyone else, can read elijahmaria's statements for yourself. Maybe you'll come to the same conclusion that I did; if not ... well, let's just say I'll survive. I only didn't answer until now because I wasn't online to do so. Now...the answer to your question: hmmm....honestly? Probably not. Oh, and I did read Mary's statement that you labeled "trolling". My conclusion--let's just say I guess you'll survive . |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2012, 04:56:47 PM » |
|
Yes, yes I will. I'm feeling quite healthy in fact.
And I am glad you answered, notwithstanding my statement that, for that particular question, not answering is a kind of answer.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2012, 05:08:04 PM » |
|
Yes, yes I will. I'm feeling quite healthy in fact. Good, good. Enjoy it while it lasts. And I am glad you answered, notwithstanding my statement that, for that particular question, not answering is a kind of answer.
Yes. That ol' apophatic approach (or something like that) . |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2012, 10:10:59 PM » |
|
I just noticed that your picture of St. Maximillian Kolbe is gone.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
|
|
|
|
J Michael
|
|
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2012, 09:30:42 AM » |
|
I just noticed that your picture of St. Maximillian Kolbe is gone.
I carry it with me in my heart. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
|
