Topic: Church tells man-hungry women to lower standards

[podkarpatska]

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Among the immigrants from the old Hapsburg domains, it was the 'baba' who typically held the family together in the New World. The men were often the 'weak' ones in the sense that while they worked long, hard days in the mills, mines, docks and factories, many were addicted to alcohol and ideas about their role more akin to the 'alpha male' mentality you are witnessing in parts of east Europe today. Fighting, arguing and more fighting and arguing were on a typical day's agenda. Women held the family together, raised the children, kept the Faith and  often worked either in the home by taking in laundry, borders etc.. or as I noted in sweatshops.

My mother's parents  were such immigrants and had five children - four daughters and a son. My grandfather was a boilermaker foreman for Standard Oil and traveled around the world prior to the war for them. He was a stickler and made sure that his daughters were properly educated - three graduated from college in a day when the percentage of women attending college was minute. My uncle also graduated from college. So I plead guilty to growing up in a family with strong willed women and men who treated them with respect and dignity.

[ialmisry]

So I've just about finished getting dinner ready so it'll be warm when my wife walks in the door.  She's coming home late tonight because she takes classes so that she can advance her career.  I think it's awesome and fully support her.  I'm glad it's 2012.  

That's nice. Don't let her child-bearing years get away from her.

Caffeine, nicotine, and masturbation as the big three natural remedies for Spring Fever.

Don't forget local honey.  I've been eating a little bit of local honey every day this year and for about the first time in my life have had no problems this spring. 

[Νεκτάριος]

huh?

[vamrat]

As for Sauron, that's between his wife and him, and his children.  I take it mama-san was before he was married.  Ah, now I see that Sauron has addressed your puerile smugness, so common on the left.

Everyone knows that liberals are the most racially/culturally sensitive, cosmopolitan people there are, unlike those vile conservatives.  They just can't tell one Asian apart from another!

[LizaSymonenko]

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".

 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

[Sauron]

huh?

I'd like to read your defense of the "mama-san" wisecracks. If you are man enough to make them, you are man enough to back them up.

[Sauron]

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".
 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

I have observed.

[LizaSymonenko]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

[Sauron]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

[akimori makoto]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

[Νεκτάριος]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

QFT.  After a year in Asia I got really tired of the high percentage of expats playing alpha male that wouldn't even have a chance back home. 

[Sauron]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

QFT.  After a year in Asia I got really tired of the high percentage of expats playing alpha male that wouldn't even have a chance back home. 

Very common tactic of American white women: to criticize men who are with Asian women. I have discussed this in a recent thread. Racism against Asians is acceptable to white liberals.

Only a real man's man can get a Ukrainian bride, of course:
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081084

[Sauron]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

You totally misunderstand the concept. It has nothing to do with height. It is about attitude. The artist in episode 3 of "Girls" was a good example of this.

[Punch]

I suppose that I am a Charlie or Delta male.  I don't like either the Alphas or the Betas.  They both whimper and wet themselves when they are about to die.  I think that there is a third, very much overlooked, class of male that is neither an Alpha male jerk nor an emasculated Beta.  These are real men, who are strong and able to protect and provide, who accept the responsibility and accountability of leading their families and clans, yet who also are gentle, nurturing, and who know how to love.  These men are humble, not always trying to be first.  Yet they are also firm, not putting up with nonsense and BS.  They will help you and care for you, or they will kill you just as soon as look at you.  It all depends on how YOU deal with them.  My father was one of those, and I hope that I will one day be seen as one.  I think the world was once full of them, as I have read many of their Biographies (and sometimes Hagiographies).  I also knew many of them as I was growing up, and some of them took me under their wing and taught me how to be a man.  I don't think that we see them very often these days, but I am sure they are out there.  I also think that most of them are HAPPILY married. The ones I knew were.

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".

 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

Obscenity replaced with something more acceptable on the Public Forum  -PtA

[akimori makoto]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

You totally misunderstand the concept. It has nothing to do with height. It is about attitude. The artist in episode 3 of "Girls" was a good example of this.

No, I understand the concept:



Actually, I am not being entirely serious, just trying to inject some humorous observation.

Carry on.

[LizaSymonenko]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I have no need to "sooth" myself.

The "speculation" stems from your seeming disdain for women. 

[Adela]

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Among the immigrants from the old Hapsburg domains, it was the 'baba' who typically held the family together in the New World. The men were often the 'weak' ones in the sense that while they worked long, hard days in the mills, mines, docks and factories, many were addicted to alcohol and ideas about their role more akin to the 'alpha male' mentality you are witnessing in parts of east Europe today. Fighting, arguing and more fighting and arguing were on a typical day's agenda. Women held the family together, raised the children, kept the Faith and  often worked either in the home by taking in laundry, borders etc.. or as I noted in sweatshops.

My mother's parents  were such immigrants and had five children - four daughters and a son. My grandfather was a boilermaker foreman for Standard Oil and traveled around the world prior to the war for them. He was a stickler and made sure that his daughters were properly educated - three graduated from college in a day when the percentage of women attending college was minute. My uncle also graduated from college. So I plead guilty to growing up in a family with strong willed women and men who treated them with respect and dignity.

"Compassion is a sign of weakness"  -- How true.  Being a 2nd generation 100% Slav (from eastern, western and southern slavic grandparents) I've seen this first hand.   Life over there was tough for most, especially for my grandfather.  Some days he only had a slice of bread to eat.  Luckily his mother had an arranged marriage (my grandfather's father died before he was born) and at age 11 he was put on a train by himself with instructions pinned to his coat and he made the long journey to America all by himself to join his mother and new stepfather.  By age 14 he was working in a steel mill.   He was tough as nails, but also could not show compassion easily.   I suspect his peers, the men, were the same way, and that's why they drank the way they did.   At Liturgy last Sunday there was a prayer in the litany for "those we love and for those who are difficult to love". Many of these tough-as-nails men were difficult to love, especially when drunk by mid-morning.  But, they got up and labored in steel mills and coal mines to support their families.  

May I just share that I think Liza was not treated fairly, or with respect.  Many people are harboring alot of hurt, and this seems to be appearing as anger directed inappropriately.  

[Sauron]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I have no need to "sooth" myself.

The "speculation" stems from your seeming disdain for women. 

"Sooth" means augury and forecasting the future. You should not do that.

I am not disdaining anyone. I am simply expounding upon the church's comments as mentioned in the subject article. Women have reacted to the article by claiming offense. Well, guess what? That is an emotional reaction that does not change reality.

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

[SolEX01]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I don't see what this has to do with a Roman Catholic Priest suggesting that women lower their expectations in order to be married.  I knew 4 sets of friends who married in 2011; nearly all of them were above 30; one was above 40.  People are waiting longer to get married because they want to find the right spouse.  As I've mentioned elsewhere on this board, I didn't find the right woman; maybe I never will.  I'm not going to compromise myself just to get married and I'm not going to regret lost opportunity.

[ialmisry]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I have no need to "sooth" myself.

The "speculation" stems from your seeming disdain for women. 

"Sooth" means augury and forecasting the future. You should not do that.

I am not disdaining anyone. I am simply expounding upon the church's comments as mentioned in the subject article. Women have reacted to the article by claiming offense. Well, guess what? That is an emotional reaction that does not change reality.

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

LOL. My current interest is a self described crazy cat lady.  We spent last night talking about Kopi Luwak.

btw, I love cats myself.  All the ones I've had made it to 20.

[SolEX01]

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

How has this advice helped your single friends find love?

[ialmisry]

I would just like to observe that it is not hard to be an alpha in Japan.

I even feel tall there.

You totally misunderstand the concept. It has nothing to do with height. It is about attitude. The artist in episode 3 of "Girls" was a good example of this.

No, I understand the concept:



Actually, I am not being entirely serious, just trying to inject some humorous observation.

Carry on.

why there's no marriages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Is_Gay!

[ialmisry]

I suppose that I am a Charlie or Delta male.  I don't like either the Alphas or the Betas.  They both whimper and wet themselves when they are about to die.  I think that there is a third, very much overlooked, class of male that is neither an Alpha male douche nor an emasculated Beta.  These are real men, who are strong and able to protect and provide, who accept the responsibility and accountability of leading their families and clans, yet who also are gentle, nurturing, and who know how to love.  These men are humble, not always trying to be first.  Yet they are also firm, not putting up with nonsense and BS.  They will help you and care for you, or they will kill you just as soon as look at you.  It all depends on how YOU deal with them.  My father was one of those, and I hope that I will one day be seen as one.  I think the world was once full of them, as I have read many of their Biographies (and sometimes Hagiographies).  I also knew many of them as I was growing up, and some of them took me under their wing and taught me how to be a man.  I don't think that we see them very often these days, but I am sure they are out there.  I also think that most of them are HAPPILY married. The ones I knew were.

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".

 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

[Sauron]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I don't see what this has to do with a Roman Catholic Priest suggesting that women lower their expectations in order to be married.  I knew 4 sets of friends who married in 2011; nearly all of them were above 30; one was above 40.  People are waiting longer to get married because they want to find the right spouse.  As I've mentioned elsewhere on this board, I didn't find the right woman; maybe I never will.  I'm not going to compromise myself just to get married and I'm not going to regret lost opportunity.

Everyone compromises. Let's get real. Everyone wants a 10? Well, guess what? There aren't enough 10s to go around.

And yeah, the priest was giving practical advice. It's like a high school commencement speech. The speaker always says something like, "I see a room full of future doctors, lawyers, perhaps even a senator or president." Come on. An honest speech is more like, "Wow, look at all these future wage slaves. Oh, and I think I see a few DUI offenders!"

Expectations need to be realistic. Women are increasingly postponing marriage. That is fine, but it imposes no duty on men. This article that ran in The Atlantic late last year is very emblematic of what I am discussing:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/

[Sauron]

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

How has this advice helped your single friends find love?

That is not the purpose of the advice. Unless the friend has a sick thing for cats, and I frankly do not want to know about that.

[LizaSymonenko]

I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

You seriously are not seeing how rude you are?

What if I am not a cat person, but, prefer dogs?  What then?

Seriously my friend, take a step back....and take a breath.

You don't know me, and you can hardly speak for the greater female population.

You don't know what "we" as women have gone through in our personal lives, that finds us "creeping in to our 50's" and single....and it's not your place to judge us.  How dare you!

It's not enough that we get it from our coworkers (not in the HR Dept), or that we are whispered about at the office "she's probably a lesbian", or that we have the married men placating us....because of our seemingly miserable single status!  ...or that the man at the corner restaurant take out counter notices no ring and offers that you pay with something other than money for your food, or that you have to defend yourself to some unknown man on an internet forum who finds he needs to improve his self-esteem by harassing women and belittling them.

GET OVER IT!  Sheesh!

A woman does NOT need a man to be happy.  

You, my dear man, are belittling all the other blessings bestowed upon single women by God...because apparently they mean nothing, if she isn't hitched to a man during her child bearing years!

....and let it be known...this "creeping on 50" female is NOT single by choice, is not a lesbian, and believe it or not, is HAPPY!!!!  I don't need a man to come and rescue me from some misery.  I have NEVER complained about my single status, as it is claimed by you guys that older females do all the time.  I don't know of ANY older women who whine about being single or claim the need to be rescued, as you put it.

You guys have a skewed view of women.....and it breaks my heart to hear it.  I don't know where you've been finding these women that seem to be such a pest to society and men, in general.  You need to UP YOUR standards and look at a different group of females....and stop generalizing.

Shameful behavior from a few of the men here.  Simply sad to read.

....and you wonder "what" women want in a man....well, I'll tell you...it's not that which has been displayed in this thread!  

[Sauron]

I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

You seriously are not seeing how rude you are?

What if I am not a cat person, but, prefer dogs?  What then?

Seriously my friend, take a step back....and take a breath.

You don't know me, and you can hardly speak for the greater female population.

You don't know what "we" as women have gone through in our personal lives, that finds us "creeping in to our 50's" and single....and it's not your place to judge us.  How dare you!

It's not enough that we get it from our coworkers (not in the HR Dept), or that we are whispered about at the office "she's probably a lesbian", or that we have the married men placating us....because of our seemingly miserable single status!  ...or that the man at the corner restaurant take out counter notices no ring and offers that you pay with something other than money for your food, or that you have to defend yourself to some unknown man on an internet forum who finds he needs to improve his self-esteem by harassing women and belittling them.

GET OVER IT!  Sheesh!

A woman does NOT need a man to be happy.  

You, my dear man, are belittling all the other blessings bestowed upon single women by God...because apparently they mean nothing, if she isn't hitched to a man during her child bearing years!

....and let it be known...this "creeping on 50" female is NOT single by choice, is not a lesbian, and believe it or not, is HAPPY!!!!  I don't need a man to come and rescue me from some misery.  I have NEVER complained about my single status, as it is claimed by you guys that older females do all the time.  I don't know of ANY older women who whine about being single or claim the need to be rescued, as you put it.

You guys have a skewed view of women.....and it breaks my heart to hear it.  I don't know where you've been finding these women that seem to be such a pest to society and men, in general.  You need to UP YOUR standards and look at a different group of females....and stop generalizing.

Shameful behavior from a few of the men here.  Simply sad to read.

....and you wonder "what" women want in a man....well, I'll tell you...it's not that which has been displayed in this thread!  

You have convinced me of your happiness. (which was never the topic of discussion in the first place)

Hamlet, Act III, Scene 2

[SolEX01]

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

How has this advice helped your single friends find love?

That is not the purpose of the advice. Unless the friend has a sick thing for cats, and I frankly do not want to know about that.

If it wasn't advice, it looked like sarcasm.

Besides, should women have to give up cats as part of lowering their expectations?

[podkarpatska]

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

How has this advice helped your single friends find love?

That is not the purpose of the advice. Unless the friend has a sick thing for cats, and I frankly do not want to know about that.

If it wasn't advice, it looked like sarcasm.

Besides, should women have to give up cats as part of lowering their expectations?

We compromised. We have cats and dogs.

[Hiwot]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I have no need to "sooth" myself.

The "speculation" stems from your seeming disdain for women. 

"Sooth" means augury and forecasting the future. You should not do that.

I am not disdaining anyone. I am simply expounding upon the church's comments as mentioned in the subject article. Women have reacted to the article by claiming offense. Well, guess what? That is an emotional reaction that does not change reality.

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

how galant of you!

Sauron, if that’s the extent of your self advertised intelligent brain’s wisdom could go, therein lies the mark of the educated big men of little character. The lack of emotional intelligence masquerading as confidence toots its own horn, because it knows not the mark of greatness and confidence, i.e. humility. Only the great and confident can afford to be humble. The Christian God could afford to be that much humble because he is great. My unsolicited advice to you:  dial down that cockiness, it will do you well to remember The Pantocrator has a unique sense of humor, it might not leave you hysterical, then again it just might.

[SolEX01]

Everyone compromises. Let's get real. Everyone wants a 10? Well, guess what? There aren't enough 10s to go around.

You're right, all of us compromise.  I told a friend of mine to give up finding spouses at young adult conferences, in effect, lowering their expectations.  I told one friend to find a spouse in his area of employment; I told the other friend to look closer to home.  Within 2 years, both married.

And yeah, the priest was giving practical advice. It's like a high school commencement speech. The speaker always says something like, "I see a room full of future doctors, lawyers, perhaps even a senator or president." Come on. An honest speech is more like, "Wow, look at all these future wage slaves. Oh, and I think I see a few DUI offenders!"

We are human; we make mistakes and we are fallen.  We get back up.

Expectations need to be realistic. Women are increasingly postponing marriage. That is fine, but it imposes no duty on men. This article that ran in The Atlantic late last year is very emblematic of what I am discussing:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/

Thanks for the link; however, the article is too technical in that the author wants to maintain her independence rather than settle down.

[SolEX01]

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

How has this advice helped your single friends find love?

That is not the purpose of the advice. Unless the friend has a sick thing for cats, and I frankly do not want to know about that.

If it wasn't advice, it looked like sarcasm.

Besides, should women have to give up cats as part of lowering their expectations?

We compromised. We have cats and dogs.

You are the perfect example for this thread.   

[SolEX01]

You have convinced me of your happiness. (which was never the topic of discussion in the first place)

Hamlet, Act III, Scene 2

I have a cousin older than Liza who has never married.  She keeps herself occupied with part-time work, communicating with her siblings, nieces and nephew, taking care of her mother and volunteering at her church.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions.

If using your brain has caused you to pick so many quarrels with the ladies on this forum, as evinced by their responses to you, perhaps you should try something else?  The way my Grampz (rest his soul) taught me, to ever intentionally pick a quarrel with a woman is perhaps the least smartest thing a man can do

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[ialmisry]

I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

You seriously are not seeing how rude you are?

What if I am not a cat person, but, prefer dogs?  What then?

Seriously my friend, take a step back....and take a breath.

You don't know me, and you can hardly speak for the greater female population.

No offense intended, but can you speak for a greater female population more than Sauron?

Looking back on how this started:

Australia is apparently in the grip of a dire man drought, and the Catholic Church in Australia suggests women lower their expectations accordingly if they want to get hitched.

I never thought I would hear a church advise people to lower their standards.  This has got to be a first!
 

Western women have a real entitlement problem. He is giving good advice.

which was followed up by this:

Really?  How so?

I will break it down for you. Stop me when it starts to sound familiar.

In the West, women now spend their twenties and thirties pursuing careers, going their own way, and generally saying "look at me, I got moxie and I'm going places". Well, these years also happen to be when women are the most physically attractive and when they are in their best child-bearing years.

Suddenly, in the early to mid-30s, there is a mad dash to catch a man. (the fish needs a bicycle after all). Unfortunately for them, the good men are largely off the market because they have chosen the women who decided not to squander the looks and fertility of their most marriageable years on an important career in social work or human resources. Meanwhile, our modern women have said, "I will marry after I do all this important stuff, take it or leave it!" That is their right, but it is also the right of men to "leave it". There is no obligation for them to "man up" and rescue them from the consequences of their choices.

He was just stating facts.  Nothing more.

A classic scene from a classic movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J-2EIvItVY

It's been discussed:
http://singlemindedwomen.com/women-relationships/tick-tock-how-to-stop-your-biological-clock-from-wrecking-your-love-life/

We can go  back to at least the early nineties/late eighties when this became a prominent issue, as the career girls at the head of the seventies began to have problems having those children they put off.

You don't know what "we" as women have gone through in our personal lives, that finds us "creeping in to our 50's" and single....and it's not your place to judge us.  How dare you!

No offense intended, but who is "we"?  Surely you have not talked to all 3.5 billion of your sex, and I doubt you have spoken with Sauron's wife and daughter (or mama-san).

Again, I don't see him judging you, but I do see you denying what is is a fact:many women put off family and then find out, to their sorrow, that they missed out.  For the reasons Sauron mentioned.

It's not enough that we get it from our coworkers (not in the HR Dept), or that we are whispered about at the office "she's probably a lesbian", or that we have the married men placating us....because of our seemingly miserable single status!  ...or that the man at the corner restaurant take out counter notices no ring and offers that you pay with something other than money for your food,

None of which Sauron insinuated.  Which brings up:

or that you have to defend yourself to some unknown man on an internet forum who finds he needs to improve his self-esteem by harassing women and belittling them.

GET OVER IT!  Sheesh!

You made some insinuation about Sauron having

obviously painful experiences with women.

when he revealed no such thing. It seems you are projecting.  It would do better to aim at a real target.

A woman does NOT need a man to be happy.

 
That's rather dogmatic and absolute, with nothing but personal anecdotes to back it up.

We all know persons who belie that.  I doubt we know them all.

You, my dear man, are belittling all the other blessings bestowed upon single women by God...because apparently they mean nothing, if she isn't hitched to a man during her child bearing years!

You started this all by posting an article about women.  Let's recap:

Church tells man-hungry women to lower standards

Australia is apparently in the grip of a dire man drought, and the Catholic Church in Australia suggests women lower their expectations accordingly if they want to get hitched...

....and let it be known...this "creeping on 50" female is NOT single by choice, is not a lesbian, and believe it or not, is HAPPY!!!!  I don't need a man to come and rescue me from some misery.  I have NEVER complained about my single status, as it is claimed by you guys that older females do all the time.  I don't know of ANY older women who whine about being single or claim the need to be rescued, as you put it.

We all know plenty.  The article you posted evidently does as well.

You guys have a skewed view of women.....and it breaks my heart to hear it.  I don't know where you've been finding these women that seem to be such a pest to society and men, in general.  You need to UP YOUR standards and look at a different group of females....and stop generalizing.

Unfortunately, as I said, not all women are like you. You are not the only one, but the growing number of the herd willing to give the milk up for free, the increasing peril presented by the "family courts," etc. are making you a shrinking minority.

Shameful behavior from a few of the men here.  Simply sad to read.

....and you wonder "what" women want in a man....well, I'll tell you...it's not that which has been displayed in this thread!  

The truth?  Yes, some of us are aware they don't want that.

[LizaSymonenko]

I need to apologize for getting sucked up in to this senseless melee. 

There are some days where it doesn't take much to set folks off....and apparently today was that day for me.

I don't know why I found it necessary to defend myself in this thread....but, being accused (yes, go back and read it) of being almost in my 50's and kind of bitter for not having found someone to rescue me from every woman's apparently lonely and miserable existence without a man...that can only be fixed by getting a cat, and then another...and then another....kind of was the last straw.  ....and no, I am not projecting my own interpretation on the words....they were clearly meant for me.

Funny thing is that I read the OP story on the Web and posted the link...thinking it was kind of funny that a Catholic clergyman is advising women to lower their standards.  It just sounded off to me....as growing up a Christian girl, I was always taught to have HIGH standards and not get all wobbly in the knees when some handsome man paid me a bit of attention.

Well, the knees still wobble on occasion...but, I still hold on to my high standards. 

I'm not single because I delayed the all-important marriage so I could build my career.  ...and while I can't possibly speak for all women, as I have been repeated reminded, I can speak for the women that I do know....and there are plenty.

Those who are single....are not so because they wished it, or delayed marriage....they simply wanted a "good"  husband....and were not able to find him.

Personally, I wanted an Orthodox man....and all the boys (who are now men) grew up and married the girls outside the Church - who also happened to have better careers, a few turned out to prefer men over women....and only....hmm.....ONE married an Orthodox woman from another parish which he met as a boy in summer camp.

I am not sure what the men posting expect here of "older" single women.....but, let me tell you that most hold a job, some have adopted kids, others take care of their elderly parents....  None is single by choice or because of being greedy and wishing to build their careers....or hold out for Mr. Perfect with a huge bankroll.....and I don't care what the "statistics" say....statistics can be skewed any way the statistician wishes to skew them.

I am not angry....I was a bit hurt....but, the long drive home from my lucrative position at a major company with a corner office (not).....gave me time to think it over ....and realize what a waste of time this has all been.

For the men out there....I truly hope you look elsewhere for women....because apparently the ones you have come in contact with are horrible.  Seriously.  We are not all gold diggers, or career builders, or out to only please ourselves.  Most women that I know, go out of their way to please others, and put themselves dead last....to the point of exhaustion.

Don't judge anyone....and that includes elderly single women.  It's not for you to judge them.

....and all I can say....is that repeatedly being referred to as "creeping in to my 50's" on this thread has actually made me feel old. 

Thanks, guys.

I wish you all peace....and may you find exactly what it is you are looking for.   

Adios.

[Punch]

I suppose that I am a Charlie or Delta male.  I don't like either the Alphas or the Betas.  They both whimper and wet themselves when they are about to die.  I think that there is a third, very much overlooked, class of male that is neither an Alpha male douche nor an emasculated Beta.  These are real men, who are strong and able to protect and provide, who accept the responsibility and accountability of leading their families and clans, yet who also are gentle, nurturing, and who know how to love.  These men are humble, not always trying to be first.  Yet they are also firm, not putting up with nonsense and BS.  They will help you and care for you, or they will kill you just as soon as look at you.  It all depends on how YOU deal with them.  My father was one of those, and I hope that I will one day be seen as one.  I think the world was once full of them, as I have read many of their Biographies (and sometimes Hagiographies).  I also knew many of them as I was growing up, and some of them took me under their wing and taught me how to be a man.  I don't think that we see them very often these days, but I am sure they are out there.  I also think that most of them are HAPPILY married. The ones I knew were.

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".

 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

Really.  You realize that I am probably as old, if not older than you?

Two of my heros as I was growing up, and to this day.

[Punch]

Your rudeness and arrogance speaks volumes.

I have not said anything rude or arrogant, although I found it particularly gross that you attempted to soothe yourself by speculating about my "obviously painful experiences with women." If that is your idea of polite and meek, there is no such thing are rudeness or arrogance.

I have no need to "sooth" myself.

The "speculation" stems from your seeming disdain for women. 

"Sooth" means augury and forecasting the future. You should not do that.

I am not disdaining anyone. I am simply expounding upon the church's comments as mentioned in the subject article. Women have reacted to the article by claiming offense. Well, guess what? That is an emotional reaction that does not change reality.

However, I use my brain to solve problems and offer solutions. I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

how galant of you!

Sauron, if that’s the extent of your self advertised intelligent brain’s wisdom could go, therein lies the mark of the educated big men of little character. The lack of emotional intelligence masquerading as confidence toots its own horn, because it knows not the mark of greatness and confidence, i.e. humility. Only the great and confident can afford to be humble. The Christian God could afford to be that much humble because he is great. My unsolicited advice to you:  dial down that cockiness, it will do you well to remember The Pantocrator has a unique sense of humor, it might not leave you hysterical, then again it just might.

He is a lawyer.  What do you expect?

[vamrat]

I recognize Hiro Oonada, but who's the other guy?  Skorzeny?

[Punch]

I give the same advice to all lifelong single women: get a cat. When it dies in 13 years, get another one. Then, get another one after that. Then, you're done.

You seriously are not seeing how rude you are?

What if I am not a cat person, but, prefer dogs?  What then?

Seriously my friend, take a step back....and take a breath.

You don't know me, and you can hardly speak for the greater female population.

No offense intended, but can you speak for a greater female population more than Sauron?

Looking back on how this started:

Australia is apparently in the grip of a dire man drought, and the Catholic Church in Australia suggests women lower their expectations accordingly if they want to get hitched.

I never thought I would hear a church advise people to lower their standards.  This has got to be a first!
 

Western women have a real entitlement problem. He is giving good advice.

which was followed up by this:

Really?  How so?

I will break it down for you. Stop me when it starts to sound familiar.

In the West, women now spend their twenties and thirties pursuing careers, going their own way, and generally saying "look at me, I got moxie and I'm going places". Well, these years also happen to be when women are the most physically attractive and when they are in their best child-bearing years.

Suddenly, in the early to mid-30s, there is a mad dash to catch a man. (the fish needs a bicycle after all). Unfortunately for them, the good men are largely off the market because they have chosen the women who decided not to squander the looks and fertility of their most marriageable years on an important career in social work or human resources. Meanwhile, our modern women have said, "I will marry after I do all this important stuff, take it or leave it!" That is their right, but it is also the right of men to "leave it". There is no obligation for them to "man up" and rescue them from the consequences of their choices.

He was just stating facts.  Nothing more.

A classic scene from a classic movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J-2EIvItVY

It's been discussed:
http://singlemindedwomen.com/women-relationships/tick-tock-how-to-stop-your-biological-clock-from-wrecking-your-love-life/

We can go  back to at least the early nineties/late eighties when this became a prominent issue, as the career girls at the head of the seventies began to have problems having those children they put off.

You don't know what "we" as women have gone through in our personal lives, that finds us "creeping in to our 50's" and single....and it's not your place to judge us.  How dare you!

No offense intended, but who is "we"?  Surely you have not talked to all 3.5 billion of your sex, and I doubt you have spoken with Sauron's wife and daughter (or mama-san).

Again, I don't see him judging you, but I do see you denying what is is a fact:many women put off family and then find out, to their sorrow, that they missed out.  For the reasons Sauron mentioned.

It's not enough that we get it from our coworkers (not in the HR Dept), or that we are whispered about at the office "she's probably a lesbian", or that we have the married men placating us....because of our seemingly miserable single status!  ...or that the man at the corner restaurant take out counter notices no ring and offers that you pay with something other than money for your food,

None of which Sauron insinuated.  Which brings up:

or that you have to defend yourself to some unknown man on an internet forum who finds he needs to improve his self-esteem by harassing women and belittling them.

GET OVER IT!  Sheesh!

You made some insinuation about Sauron having

obviously painful experiences with women.

when he revealed no such thing. It seems you are projecting.  It would do better to aim at a real target.

A woman does NOT need a man to be happy.

That's rather dogmatic and absolute, with nothing but personal anecdotes to back it up.

We all know persons who belie that.  I doubt we know them all.

You, my dear man, are belittling all the other blessings bestowed upon single women by God...because apparently they mean nothing, if she isn't hitched to a man during her child bearing years!

You started this all by posting an article about women.  Let's recap:

Church tells man-hungry women to lower standards

Australia is apparently in the grip of a dire man drought, and the Catholic Church in Australia suggests women lower their expectations accordingly if they want to get hitched...

....and let it be known...this "creeping on 50" female is NOT single by choice, is not a lesbian, and believe it or not, is HAPPY!!!!  I don't need a man to come and rescue me from some misery.  I have NEVER complained about my single status, as it is claimed by you guys that older females do all the time.  I don't know of ANY older women who whine about being single or claim the need to be rescued, as you put it.

We all know plenty.  The article you posted evidently does as well.

You guys have a skewed view of women.....and it breaks my heart to hear it.  I don't know where you've been finding these women that seem to be such a pest to society and men, in general.  You need to UP YOUR standards and look at a different group of females....and stop generalizing.

Unfortunately, as I said, not all women are like you. You are not the only one, but the growing number of the herd willing to give the milk up for free, the increasing peril presented by the "family courts," etc. are making you a shrinking minority.

Shameful behavior from a few of the men here.  Simply sad to read.

....and you wonder "what" women want in a man....well, I'll tell you...it's not that which has been displayed in this thread!  

The truth?  Yes, some of us are aware they don't want that.

Sorry, you can parse this up and cut and paste as many pictures as you want on this thread.  But you still acted like a jerkl, and that may explain your situation with women.  Maybe Liz cannot speak for all of the women in the world.  But I have been around quite a few myself, and I do not find them all like you portray them.  In fact, MOST of the women that I know are nothing like you portray them, and most of the men that I know that speak of them as you do gave their women good reason to dump them.  Yes, there are one or two men that I know that were actually taken advantage of, but by far the majority had it coming.  So you go ahead and live in whatever fiction that you want to call the truth.  But just like Liz, or I, may not have a corner on what all women think, you certainly have no corner on the truth.



Obscenity replaced with something more acceptable on the Public Forum  -PtA

[Punch]

I recognize Hiro Oonada, but who's the other guy?  Skorzeny?

Ernest Shackleton.  I did not put some of my other heroes up since some may find them offensive. But, since you brought him up:

[ialmisry]

I suppose that I am a Charlie or Delta male.  I don't like either the Alphas or the Betas.  They both whimper and wet themselves when they are about to die.  I think that there is a third, very much overlooked, class of male that is neither an Alpha male jerk nor an emasculated Beta.  These are real men, who are strong and able to protect and provide, who accept the responsibility and accountability of leading their families and clans, yet who also are gentle, nurturing, and who know how to love.  These men are humble, not always trying to be first.  Yet they are also firm, not putting up with nonsense and BS.  They will help you and care for you, or they will kill you just as soon as look at you.  It all depends on how YOU deal with them.  My father was one of those, and I hope that I will one day be seen as one.  I think the world was once full of them, as I have read many of their Biographies (and sometimes Hagiographies).  I also knew many of them as I was growing up, and some of them took me under their wing and taught me how to be a man.  I don't think that we see them very often these days, but I am sure they are out there.  I also think that most of them are HAPPILY married. The ones I knew were.

Great post, Podkarpatska!  I'm surrounded by what I'd call a "gopnik" culture and have come to deeply hate it.  The whole concept is to be tough, be an alpha male and bully anybody whom you can.  Compassion is a sign of weakness.  It's a really unfortunate part of Russian culture.    

Being beta, you have just made a caricature of it in your mind. Similar to the "nice guys" who whine, "girls just like jerks!" No, they like confidence. Can a jerk be confident? Sure, but so can a "nice guy".

 

Do you know Νεκτάριος that you have just labeled him a "beta" male?

Really.  You realize that I am probably as old, if not older than you?

Yes.  Your point?

Two of my heros as I was growing up, and to this day

Shackleton.  Excellent choice.

[ialmisry]

I need to apologize for getting sucked up in to this senseless melee.

Sucked in?  You're the OP.

There are some days where it doesn't take much to set folks off....and apparently today was that day for me.

I don't know why I found it necessary to defend myself in this thread

because you defended the man hungry women in your OP who want to get hitched to not lower their standards.  Or adopt realistic expectations.

....but, being accused (yes, go back and read it) of being almost in my 50's and kind of bitter for not having found someone to rescue me from every woman's apparently lonely and miserable existence without a man...that can only be fixed by getting a cat, and then another...and then another....kind of was the last straw.  ....and no, I am not projecting my own interpretation on the words....they were clearly meant for me.

you spoke quite dogmatically for all women before those words.

Funny thing is that I read the OP story on the Web and posted the link...thinking it was kind of funny that a Catholic clergyman is advising women to lower their standards.  It just sounded off to me....as growing up a Christian girl, I was always taught to have HIGH standards and not get all wobbly in the knees when some handsome man paid me a bit of attention.

Well, the knees still wobble on occasion...but, I still hold on to my high standards.

Well, no one said you didn't. Not the OP, not anyone else.

What was pointed out by both is many girls have absurd standards that few if any men can meet.  In fact, specifically what was said was not to fixate on the handsome 10 man.

And like I said, you, unfortunately, are not an example of every woman.  And you example is becoming fewer and fewer.

I'm not single because I delayed the all-important marriage so I could build my career.  ...and while I can't possibly speak for all women, as I have been repeated reminded, I can speak for the women that I do know....and there are plenty.

I can't speak for others, but I know plenty of women too.

Those who are single....are not so because they wished it, or delayed marriage....they simply wanted a "good"  husband....and were not able to find him.

I don't recall anyone denying such women (or men). They were, however, not the focus of your article, and hence not the point of the subsequent conversation.

Personally, I wanted an Orthodox man....and all the boys (who are now men) grew up and married the girls outside the Church - who also happened to have better careers, a few turned out to prefer men over women....and only....hmm.....ONE married an Orthodox woman from another parish which he met as a boy in summer camp.

I am not sure what the men posting expect here of "older" single women

neither the article nor the conversation talked about men's expectations of women-younger or older.  It was on the expectations of women, young and old.

.....but, let me tell you that most hold a job, some have adopted kids, others take care of their elderly parents....  None is single by choice or because of being greedy and wishing to build their careers....or hold out for Mr. Perfect with a huge bankroll.....and I don't care what the "statistics" say....statistics can be skewed any way the statistician wishes to skew them.

I am not angry....I was a bit hurt....but, the long drive home from my lucrative position at a major company with a corner office (not).....gave me time to think it over ....and realize what a waste of time this has all been.

For the men out there....I truly hope you look elsewhere for women

Sauron, being happily married, shouldn't be looking for a women anywhere but home.

Myself, I unfortunately learned that marrying someone Orthodox doesn't necessary mean an Orthodox marriage.  I met her through Church.   These things happen.  Right now I'm reacquainting myself with someone.

[Sauron]

I recognize Hiro Oonada, but who's the other guy?  Skorzeny?

Ernest Shackleton.  I did not put some of my other heroes up since some may find them offensive. But, since you brought him up:

Why would anyone be offended that your hero was a Nazi thug?

[ialmisry]

Sorry, you can parse this up and cut and paste as many pictures as you want on this thread.  But you still acted like a douche, and that may explain your situation with women.

Oh?  Really?  What is my "situation with women"?  Explain it to me.

Maybe Liz cannot speak for all of the women in the world.  But I have been around quite a few myself, and I do not find them all like you portray them.  In fact, MOST of the women that I know are nothing like you portray them, and most of the men that I know that speak of them as you do gave their women good reason to dump them.  Yes, there are one or two men that I know that were actually taken advantage of, but by far the majority had it coming.

 

So you go ahead and live in whatever fiction that you want to call the truth.

ah, my "situation with women" again. What "truth" do you call it?

But just like Liz, or I, may not have a corner on what all women think, you certainly have no corner on the truth.

and yet you can explain to me the "truth" of my "situation with women."