Author Topic: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?  (Read 1302 times)

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« on: May 08, 2012, 01:42:09 PM »
Hey y'all!

 I stumbled across this Wiki article on the Moravian Church.  It notes that:

 "The movement that was to become the Moravian Church was started by Jan Hus (English: John Huss) in the late 14th century. Hus objected to some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church and wanted to return the church in Bohemia and Moravia to what were the practices in these territories when it had been Eastern Orthodox: liturgy in the language of the people (i.e. Czech), having lay people receive communion in both kinds (bread and wine), married priests, and eliminating indulgences and the idea of Purgatory. Evidence of their roots in Eastern Orthodoxy can be seen today in their form of the Nicene Creed, which like Orthodox Churches, does not include the filioque clause. In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone; in doing so, the Moravians arguably became the first Protestant church."

 The article also mentions a group known as the Waldensians who gave the Moravians episcopal ordination.  The article goes on to say:

 "These were some of the earliest Protestants, rebelling against Rome more than a hundred years before Martin Luther."

Both churches are represented here in the States, but that the “Waldensianism came to an end at the time of the Reformation,” when it was “swallowed up” by Protestantism.

 I'm sure there are OC.net members who have heard of the Moravian Church before.  I thought the article was interesting as I've always thought that Luther was the first Protestant.  It seems he may have been influenced.


 What say y'all?
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Offline Punch

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 02:28:51 PM »
Luther was influenced by Hus, and Hus was well thought of by the Lutherans that I knew.  Hus would have been the father of the Reformation if there would have been some Protestants around back then.  Luther was lucky because his religious reformation was backed by political Protestants who actually had armies and castles.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 03:01:11 PM »
Hus would have been the father of the Reformation if there would have been some Protestants around back then. 

Yeah, and if they hadn't burned him at the stake. Luther had powerful friends to hide him.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 03:35:51 PM »
Did Hus teach "justification by grace alone"? The Orthodox Church also rejects indulgences, does that make us Protestant?

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 03:51:55 PM »
Did Hus teach "justification by grace alone"? The Orthodox Church also rejects indulgences, does that make us Protestant?

In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone

Sounds like landmark baptist-style reductionism and history fudging.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 03:59:03 PM »
Did Hus teach "justification by grace alone"? The Orthodox Church also rejects indulgences, does that make us Protestant?

In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone

Sounds like landmark baptist-style reductionism and history fudging.

Except that what you have me saying was actually a quote from an article.  You'll need to turn in your investigative journalism badge until you repeat a few courses.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 04:31:16 PM »
The Moravian Church is a member of the Lutheran World Federation, so at some point they came to an understanding with each other.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 10:16:37 PM »
Quote
Evidence of their roots in Eastern Orthodoxy can be seen today in their form of the Nicene Creed, which like Orthodox Churches, does not include the filioque clause.

Interesting. I knew that the Old Catholics & PNCC dropped the filioque (a century or so ago when they separated from Rome) but I didn't know about the Moravians doing so.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 10:24:54 PM »
Hey y'all!

 I stumbled across this Wiki article on the Moravian Church.  It notes that:

 "The movement that was to become the Moravian Church was started by Jan Hus (English: John Huss) in the late 14th century. Hus objected to some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church and wanted to return the church in Bohemia and Moravia to what were the practices in these territories when it had been Eastern Orthodox: liturgy in the language of the people (i.e. Czech), having lay people receive communion in both kinds (bread and wine), married priests, and eliminating indulgences and the idea of Purgatory. Evidence of their roots in Eastern Orthodoxy can be seen today in their form of the Nicene Creed, which like Orthodox Churches, does not include the filioque clause. In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone; in doing so, the Moravians arguably became the first Protestant church."

 The article also mentions a group known as the Waldensians who gave the Moravians episcopal ordination.  The article goes on to say:

 "These were some of the earliest Protestants, rebelling against Rome more than a hundred years before Martin Luther."

Both churches are represented here in the States, but that the “Waldensianism came to an end at the time of the Reformation,” when it was “swallowed up” by Protestantism.

 I'm sure there are OC.net members who have heard of the Moravian Church before.  I thought the article was interesting as I've always thought that Luther was the first Protestant.  It seems he may have been influenced.


 What say y'all?


They were more like proto-protestants. I can't speak for all former protestants on this board, but If you were raised Fundamentalist or had friends who were fundamentalists then the history of Huss, Wycliff, Tyndale,  and the Waldensians would of came up when talking about the issue of "the history of the English Bible", or some other topic.


They weren't really protestants in the full sense of the word, but Luther and them did eventually follow in their footsteps. All thanks to the printing press. And so in a way they did get the ball rolling.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 10:26:22 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 10:29:47 PM »
Did Hus teach "justification by grace alone"? The Orthodox Church also rejects indulgences, does that make us Protestant?

In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone

Sounds like landmark baptist-style reductionism and history fudging.

Land Mark Baptists are actually hard to find these days. I was so happy when I found one on facebook!

I treated him like a specimen to be studied. He didn't mind either.
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Offline mike

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 03:34:20 AM »
The Moravian Church is a member of the Lutheran World Federation, so at some point they came to an understanding with each other.

The organisation that currently uses that name was created by some XX-century LARPER-s and they are not related historically to the original Hussites (whose existence finally stopped in the XVIIth Century).

Offline Peter J

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 06:16:06 AM »
And here I was just wondering when "LARPing" would get mentioned on this forum again. ;D
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Offline Keble

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 11:04:55 AM »
A year ago the Episcopal Church and the American Moravians did the full intercommunion thing.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 12:20:35 PM »
And here I was just wondering when "LARPing" would get mentioned on this forum again. ;D

Folks on this forum do seem to have an odd fascination with the nerdy past-time. Oh, nvm, this is an Orthodox forum. I'm sure most of our members are involved in one right now. ;D

Though, I did not know that the group calling themselves "Moravian" today isn't the original historical community. Interesting that someone decided to resurrect it...
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 01:14:29 PM »
In our old neighborhood, in addition to the Slovak Lutheran Church, there was a Presbyterian Church named for Jan Huss. It was founded by Czech immigrants in the early 20th century. They are still hanging in there but I don't think that they are different than the First Pres church across town these days.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 01:35:42 PM »
Luther was influenced by Hus, and Hus was well thought of by the Lutherans that I knew.  Hus would have been the father of the Reformation if there would have been some Protestants around back then.  Luther was lucky because his religious reformation was backed by political Protestants who actually had armies and castles.
Acutually, Hus had that too, but he was tricked into leaving them by the duplicity of the Vatican and showing up on the promise of immunity.  Luther learned from the mistake.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2012, 04:32:02 PM »
Interesting to consider that, if the Council of Constance had decided not to execute Jan Hus, he might possibly have lived a couple more decades and attended the next council -- which is to say, the Council of Florence. I can't help wondering if that could have altered the sad outcome of that council.
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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 12:49:50 AM »
Did Hus teach "justification by grace alone"? The Orthodox Church also rejects indulgences, does that make us Protestant?

In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone

Sounds like landmark baptist-style reductionism and history fudging.

Except that what you have me saying was actually a quote from an article.  You'll need to turn in your investigative journalism badge until you repeat a few courses.
Bro, I know it's from a wiki article. It's the wiki article that sounds like landmark baptist-style reductionism and history fudging.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 12:34:26 PM »
What say y'all?

I've read a good deal about the early Moravians, and as I understand it they started off in the early 1700s at the estate of Count Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf, who gave refuge to persecuted followers of the teaching of Hus. But the Hussites were not the only 'stream' that flowed into the work of God's spirit (as I see it) at that estate. Others blended, and the Moravian church was born in the 1720s from that flowing together. The place where this happened was called Herrnhut (The Watch of the Lord), and so the people are sometimes known as Herrnhuter.

Some of Zinzendorf's devotional writings are in print in English in one or more collections of early Pietist writings, and I have read in them to supplement my spiritual diet, rather as I have read various Orthodox writers. (I have also been stirred by straightforward Moravian history).

It was Moravians who so deeply and strongly influenced John Wesley, before his Evangelical conversion in 1738, pointing out to him the need for an inner, living faith in the heart.

As far as I recall, I have only ever spoken at one Moravian church, and I believe that here in Britain at least they have changed rather a lot from the beliefs and practices of their early days.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2012, 05:42:01 PM »
I've read a good deal about the early Moravians, and as I understand it they started off in the early 1700s at the estate of Count Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf, who gave refuge to persecuted followers of the teaching of Hus.

I believe they would say that their church existed continuously since the 14th century, but became more numerous and public in the 18th century, after having dwindled.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2012, 12:18:00 AM »
The Moravian Church is a member of the Lutheran World Federation, so at some point they came to an understanding with each other.

The organisation that currently uses that name was created by some XX-century LARPER-s and they are not related historically to the original Hussites (whose existence finally stopped in the XVIIth Century).

What do you mean? There have been Moravians living in North Carolina (in Winston-Salem) since the 1700s....so definitely not some XX century LARPER-s.

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 12:18:30 AM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Moravian Church- Protestant *before* Lutherans?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2012, 08:42:19 AM »
It looks like I've taken Czechoslovak Hussite Church for Moravian Church. And the latter indeed has some tiny original Hussite infuence in its origins (Czechoslovak Hussite Church has not at all).