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Author Topic: What happens if the Latins are right?  (Read 11124 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2005, 08:22:47 AM »


"Right" in what way, Ipap? According to Kizzy and yourself, faith cannot be expressed in words, so how do you know if anyone is right or wrong?


Why then don't you abandon Orthodoxy and worship Buddha? Or Krishna?


Just a moment ago, you said "Salvation is not about rightness or wrongness." If this is the case, then why do "the Latins" or we need to know Christ at all? How do we know that He is Our Saviour? Couldn't we just worship trees or satan, since, as you say, "Salvation is not about rightness or wrongness."
 


Brother ozgeorge,

You missed my point. Pontius Pilate asked Christ “what is the truth ?” and he got no answer from Him. If he had asked “Who is the truth?” then he may became Christian too because "the Truth" was in front of him as a living Person.

Truth, faith, salvation are not ideals (in a true or wrong format) but they are living realities that can only be experienced in the environment of Holy Life of Trinity by meeting Christ in person.

tip: I am not trying to make you see something you don't. I think that I am talking about the same think you are experiencing as a live Christian but I have to use "my experiences" to talk about "your true one global faith". I apologize for this as long as it alienates us as a result of my defensive (you may be think of it as offensive) responds. I am not defending “my personal Christian faith” against “your true one global Christian faith” but I am trying to learn how to express “my everything” in terms of “your everything”.
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« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2005, 09:33:21 AM »

You missed my point. Pontius Pilate asked Christ “what is the truth ?” and he got no answer from Him. If he had asked “Who is the truth?” then he may became Christian too because "the Truth" was in front of him as a living Person.
And I think you have missed my point. How do we know that Christ is "the Way the Truth and the Life"? Who told us this? Did they use words to express this? If, as you say, Absolute Truths cannot be expressed in words, then it is not absolutely true that Christ is "the Way the Truth and the Life", since the truth of this statement depends on His words expressing a Revealed, Absolute Divine Truth.
Do you see that when you made the statement "Christ Himself is the Truth" you expressed the Faith in words? Truth is the Person of Jesus, but you expressed this in words. And this statement also means that Mohamed is not "the Way the Truth and the Life", nor is Buddha "the Way the Truth and the Life", instead, you have learned from the words of Christ and our Fathers in the Faith that only Christ is "The Way the Truth and the Life".
There you have it: Faith expressed in words.

Truth, faith, salvation are not ideals (in a true or wrong format) but they are living realities that can only be experienced in the environment of Holy Life of Trinity by meeting Christ in person.
And how do we meet Christ in Person if we do not know Who He is? And how do we know Who He is if we don't know the Faith of our Fathers? And how do we know the Faith of our Fathers if we don't read their words?
When an infant is baptised- don't we have to use words? Doesn't their Sponsor express in words the Faith he or she will instill in the child? "I beleive in One God, the Father, the Almighty...."- is this not the Faith expressed in words? Why do we call it the "Symbol of Faith" if it isn't our Faith expressed in words?

I think that I am talking about the same think you are experiencing as a live Christian but I have to use "my experiences" to talk about "your true one global faith".
What I think is that the Faith can be expressed in words, and must be lived. If I say "I beleive in One God..." I must live as though there is a God Who created the universe, came to save it, and will one day come judge it.
As St. Maximos the Confessor said: "Theology without praxis is the theology of demons." But on the other hand, "Praxis without theology" is nothing more than social work. You don't have to beleive in God to do good.

I apologize for this as long as it alienates us as a result of my defensive (you may be think of it as offensive) responds.
I think of your responses as neither defensive nor offensive.

I am not defending “my personal Christian faith” against “your true one global Christian faith” but I am trying to learn how to express “my everything” in terms of “your everything”.
I'm not sure what you mean by my "one true global Christian Faith" vs. your "personal Christian Faith". How can anyone have a "personal Christian Faith"? Christianity, by definition, requires a Church- one cannot be a Christian in personal seperation from the Church. "Churchless Christianity" is a recent Evangelical Protestant idea. And how can there be "my everything" and "your everything"? Isn't everything neither mine or yours, but God's? Or are we yet again going back to the "different points of view approach"?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 09:59:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2005, 12:47:32 PM »



The eight Tones do not express the Absolute Truths now, do they? If they did, then we would be in serious trouble since the eight tones are vastly different in Greek and Slavonic usage.

OZG, that is my point...we agreee on this... However you may not  know that  there are some Orthodox who believe that Orthodox worship can only be expressed via the eight tones... and they try to find the tones  within Slavonic chant....and they argue over the nuances of whether a particular hymn in the GO church  is sung absolutely accurately according to an ancient tone... I disagree with this thinking... I believe Orthodoxy is not dependent on the mode of chant nor on the specific  language of the faith..  But having said that, the issue is there is no absolutely exact translation between languages... and that is  a major source of the problems that arose between the Latins and Greeks years ago...  language differences were a big part... And if written language is the way the faith is expressed and the different languages cannot convey exactly the same meaning...or, it appears to convey the same meaning to those of that langauge but not to the outsiders  then what? Do we criticize the terminology in  a foreign language if we don't really understand the meaning esp the ethos of the meaning which is dependent on the culture itself?? This is where I believe faith also has a part in believing what cannot be completely expressed in words between cultures and languages...

In XC, kizzy 
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« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2005, 06:11:38 PM »

Brother ozgeorge,

let me support your saying by presenting a passage from an essay with title "Communion and Otherness" of Metropolitan John Zizioulas of Pergamon. You can find the whole text here: http://www.trinitylight.net/theology/communion.htm

I think that but reading this passage you may come to the conclusion that we are both right !

Communion and Otherness

""...
Faith in Christ

We cannot be the "image of God" unless we are incorporated in the original and only authentic image of the Father, which is the Son of God incarnate.

This implies that communion with the other requires the experience of the Cross. Unless we sacrifice our own will and subject it to the will of the other, repeating in ourselves what our Lord did at Gethsemane in accepting the will of His Father, we cannot reflect properly in history the communion and otherness that we see in the Triune God. Since God moved to meet the other -- His creation -- by emptying Himself and subjecting his Son to the kenosis(self-emptying) of the Incarnation, the "kenotic" way is the only one that befits the Christian in his or her communion with the other, be it God or neighbor.

This kenotic approach to communion with the other is not determined in any way by the qualities that he or she might or might not possess. In accepting the sinner into communion, Christ applied the Trinitarian model. The other is not to be identified by his or her qualities, but by the sheer fact that he or she is, and is himself or herself. We cannot discriminate between those who are worthy of our acceptance and those who are not. This is what the Christological model of communion with others requires.

Faith in Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit, among other things, is associated with koinonia (II Cor 13, 13) and the entrance of the last days into history (Acts 2, 17-18), that is eschatology.

When the Holy Spirit blows, He does not create good individual Christians, individuals "saints," but an event of communion which transforms everything the Spirit touches into a relational being. The other becomes in this case an ontological part of one's identity. The Holy Spirit de-individualizes beings wherever He blows. Where the Holy Spirit blows, there is community. I think that this is the point you are trying to make.

The eschatological dimension, on the other hand, of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit affects deeply the identity of the other: it is not on the basis of one's past or present that we should identify and accept him or her, but on the basis of one's future. And since the future lies only in the hands of God, our approach to the other must be free from passing judgment on him. In the Holy Spirit, every other is a potential saint, even if he appears be a sinner.
...
Personhood

Theology and Church life involve a certain conception of the human being: personhood. This term, sanctified through its use in connection with the very being of God and of Christ, is rich in its implications.

The Person is otherness in communion and communion in otherness. The Person is an identity that emerges through relationship (schesis, in the terminology of the Fathers); it is an "I" that can exist only as long as it relates to a "Thou" which affirms its existence and its otherness. If we isolate the "I" from the "Thou," we lose not only its otherness but also its very being; it simply cannot be without the other. This is what distinguishes the person from the individual.

The Orthodox understanding of the Holy Trinity is the only way to arrive at this concept of Personhood: the Father cannot be conceived for a moment without the Son and the Spirit, and the same applies to the other two Persons in their relation with the Father and with each other. At the same time each of these Persons is so unique that their hypostatic or personal properties are totally incommunicable from one Person to the Other.

Personhood is inconceivable without freedom; it is the freedom of being other. I hesitate to say "different" instead of "other" because "different" can be understood in the sense of qualities (clever, beautiful, holy, etc.), which is not what the person is about. In God all such qualities are common to the each three Persons. Person implies not simply the freedom to have different qualities but mainly the freedom simply to be yourself. This means that a person is not subject to norms and stereotypes and cannot be classified in any way; its uniqueness is absolute. This means that only a person is free in the true sense.

And yet one person is no person; freedom is not freedom from the other but freedom for the other. Freedom becomes identical with love. God is love because He is Trinity. We can love only if we are persons, allowing the other to be truly other and yet be in communion with us. If we love the other not in spite of his or her being different but because they are different from us, or rather other than ourselves, we live in freedom as love and in love as freedom.

The other is a condition of our freedom. Freedom is not from but for something other than ourselves. This makes the person ec-static, going outside and beyond the boundaries of the self. But this ecstasis is not to be understood as a movement towards the unknown and the infinite; it is a movement of affirmation of the other."
This is the point that I am trying to make...."

« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 06:19:49 PM by lpap » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2005, 08:14:56 PM »

This is where I believe faith also has a part in believing what cannot be completely expressed in words between cultures and languages...

Let me "play back" to you what you seem to be saying:
"Hi, my name is kizzy, I don't know what I believe, but I believe, and although I can't tell you what it is, I know that it's the Truth....."
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 10:53:20 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2005, 01:35:22 AM »



Let me "play back" to you what you seem to be saying:
"Hi, my name is kizzy, I don't know what I believe, but I believe, and although I can't tell you what it is, I know that it's the Truth....."

I  believe that interpretation of the words in the Bible, that is a full understanding of God's command,  is a centuries long proposition for hunankind in our infinite non-wisdom...the written word is at best a very humble attempt to express the fullness of God... and when we add language translations, it only gets worse...for each language does not have a complete list of words of identical meaning...and substitute words are not always 100% meaning the same...

This is what I said before... We can state what we believe in terms of our Creed, the bible, but when we do it is in our own language... and once another culture translates it for themselves... we are not in a position to truthfully judge the meaning... So, translating Greek to Latin for example... and then criticizing the Latin as an outsider is futile... Each language is unique and will express the same thing in a different way... And only God can tell if the two expressions have the same meaning...

 
In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2005, 03:16:11 AM »


 I believe that interpretation of the words in the Bible, that is a full understanding of God's command, is a centuries long proposition for hunankind in our infinite non-wisdom...the written word is at best a very humble attempt to express the fullness of God... and when we add language translations, it only gets worse...for each language does not have a complete list of words of identical meaning...and substitute words are not always 100% meaning the same...

This is what I said before... We can state what we believe in terms of our Creed, the bible, but when we do it is in our own language... and once another culture translates it for themselves... we are not in a position to truthfully judge the meaning... So, translating Greek to Latin for example... and then criticizing the Latin as an outsider is futile... Each language is unique and will express the same thing in a different way... And only God can tell if the two expressions have the same meaning...

 
In XC, Kizzy


Dear sister kizzy.

S. Paul says: Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the manifest of the reality of things that we hope for, and the examination of things we do not see". In Greek the original text is: "+ò-â-ä+¦ +¦ß+¦ -Çß++-â-ä+¦-é ß+É++-Ç+¦+¦++++ß+¦++-ë++ ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é, -Ç-ü+¦+¦++ß+¦-ä-ë++ ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é ++ß+É +¦+++¦-Ç++++ß+¦++-ë++"

So when ozgeorge stated that "...you don't know what you believe, but you believe, and although you can't tell someone what it is, you know that it's the Truth....." he is just pointing (I think un-intentionally) that you are in absolute agreement with S. Paul because indeed there is no way for someone to talk about things that "he does do not see" but he nevertheless "hopes for".
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« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2005, 10:50:03 PM »



Dear sister kizzy.

S. Paul says: Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the manifest of the reality of things that we hope for, and the examination of things we do not see". In Greek the original text is: "+ò-â-ä+¦ +¦ß+¦ -Çß++-â-ä+¦-é ß+É++-Ç+¦+¦++++ß+¦++-ë++ ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é, -Ç-ü+¦+¦++ß+¦-ä-ë++ ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é ++ß+É +¦+++¦-Ç++++ß+¦++-ë++"

So when ozgeorge stated that "...you don't know what you believe, but you believe, and although you can't tell someone what it is, you know that it's the Truth....." he is just pointing (I think un-intentionally) that you are in absolute agreement with S. Paul because indeed there is no way for someone to talk about things that "he does do not see" but he nevertheless "hopes for".

Thank you Brother Ipap for the scripture quote, which  says it best!
In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2005, 10:27:32 AM »

Thank you Brother Ipap for the scripture quote, which says it best!

I'm afraid your Brother Ipap got it wrong, he has provided you with a mistranslation.
Look at the fifth word in the quoted phrase:
"+ò-â-ä+¦ +¦ß+¦ -Çß++-â-ä+¦-é ß+É++-Ç+¦+¦++++ß+¦++-ë++ ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é, -Ç-ü+¦+¦++ß+¦-ä-ë++ ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é ++ß+É +¦+++¦-Ç++++ß+¦++-ë++"
 "ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é" is the word "hypostasis"- the same word we use to describe the Persons of the Trinity- One God in Three Hypostases.
The seventh word in the phrase, "ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é" means "evidence", not "examination".
So the phrase should read:
"Faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

In the next verses after this passage, St. Paul gives some examples of what he means.
in verse 3 he states:
"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.
So you see, St. Paul is framing the dogma of Creation ex nihilo which he knows by faith into words.

You really shouldn't have tried to use St. Paul to defend your position. Because when he stood on the Areopagus and addressed the men of Athens, he said:
"Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, Him I declare unto you. "Acts 17:23

Those who worshipped God in ignorance, not knowing anything about Him, were taught Who He is by St. Paul.

It is the philosophers ("the men of Athens") who worship God in ignorance.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 10:31:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2005, 10:41:31 AM »

I usually interrupt about here to re-iterate that "ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é"-the word "hypostasis"- usually rendered as "person" literally means "under-footing" or foundation. The same as in Latin's sub-stance (under-footing or foundation).
I think ozgeorge has got it right.
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« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2005, 06:31:52 PM »

I usually interrupt about here to re-iterate that "ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é"-the word "hypostasis"- usually rendered as "person" literally means "under-footing" or foundation. The same as in Latin's sub-stance (under-footing or foundation).

And the english word "understanding" has a similar origin. "Under-standing" = "hypo-stasis".

"Faith is the understanding of things hoped for......."
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« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2005, 07:43:40 PM »



I'm afraid your Brother Ipap got it wrong, he has provided you with a mistranslation.
Look at the fifth word in the quoted phrase:
"+ò-â-ä+¦ +¦ß+¦ -Çß++-â-ä+¦-é ß+É++-Ç+¦+¦++++ß+¦++-ë++ ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é, -Ç-ü+¦+¦++ß+¦-ä-ë++ ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é ++ß+É +¦+++¦-Ç++++ß+¦++-ë++"
 "ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é" is the word "hypostasis"- the same word we use to describe the Persons of the Trinity- One God in Three Hypostases.
The seventh word in the phrase, "ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é" means "evidence", not "examination".
So the phrase should read:
"Faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

In the next verses after this passage, St. Paul gives some examples of what he means.
in verse 3 he states:
"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.
So you see, St. Paul is framing the dogma of Creation ex nihilo which he knows by faith into words.


ozgeorge you are absolutely wrong in this matter !!!

your interpretation is based in the wrong translation of two words:
ypostasis= substance
+¡+++¦+¦-ç++-é(elegchos) = evidence

First of all S. Paul is not using the word “ypostasis” in the same context that the Fathers of Synods gave to the word several centuries later.
You are saying that “"ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é" is the word "hypostasis"- the same word we use to describe the Persons of the Trinity- One God in Three Hypostases”. No person that was living the time that S. Paul lived and to whom he was actually talking to would have apprehend the word “ypostasis” with the meaning that the coming Fathers of the Church gave to it by describing the Persons of Trinity and that you are suggesting that he used even before it was introduced. Apostle Paul is using the word “ypostasis” with the meaning that it was used at his time frame that was: “substance, essence, or underlying reality”. That is the reason that neither S. Paul neither any other Apostles never used the word “ypostasis” in their writings referring to Trinity Persons, never ! (actually this is the only use of the word in the whole bible)

So you are right that the word is the same but the meaning is not the one you are suggesting. You are making a logical mistake to translate Paul’s writings with the theological language of today. The mistake is that today’s language was not used then. If your translation was the right one then “faith” would have been a Person because “ypostasis” regarding Trinity is absolutely referring to Persons. Fathers used the philosophic term “ypostasis” that was meaning “substance, essence, or underlying reality” and gave it a new meaning that was about Devine Persons in the same context in order to describe the underlying reality that these Persons live. Even in Father’s meaning the philosophical notion of “substance and essence” that the word “ypostasis” had was not included (only the notion of underlying living reality was included) because theologicaly “substance and essence” is defined by the word “ousia” (++-Ã -â+»+¦ in greek). So even if Apostle Paul had used the word “ypostasis” with the same meaning that Church Fathers introduced several centuries later, he again would have meant “underlying reality of things”, which happens to be my translation.
Please check the meaning of “ypostasis” in the Dictionary


Then you assert that the word “+¡+++¦+¦-ç++-é” means “evidence”. I am using the translation “the examination of things”. The greek word in question has originated from a verb that means “to examine” so the right word to translate it should be “examination”. You are suggesting that the right translation would be “evidence” which should be originated from the verb “prove”.
Please Check the meaning of greek word -½+¡+++¦+¦-ç++-é-+ in dictionary under the word “examination”


The word “evidence” has nothing to do with the greek word “+¡+++¦+¦-ç++-é-+. +Â¥++ne whatever. Check the dictionary (page1) (page2) .


So my translation stands as I was posted it:
Hebrews 11:1
"Faith is the manifest of the reality of things that we hope for, and the examination of things we do not see". In Greek the original text is: "+ò-â-ä+¦ +¦ß+¦ -Çß++-â-ä+¦-é ß+É++-Ç+¦+¦++++ß+¦++-ë++ ß+æ-Çß+¦-â-ä+¦-â+¦-é, -Ç-ü+¦+¦++ß+¦-ä-ë++ ß+ö+++¦+¦-ç++-é ++ß+É +¦+++¦-Ç++++ß+¦++-ë++".

And in that frame sister kizzy is absolutely right.



And the english word "understanding" has a similar origin. "Under-standing" = "hypo-stasis".

"Faith is the understanding of things hoped for......."
For God's name ozgeorge you are driving your self in the wilderness of missconception.
understanding = hypostasis Huh
Pull yourself together brother.
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« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2005, 08:42:58 PM »

"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.

Brother ozgeorge, of cource by faith we understand everything about created things and not about uncreated ones !
The question on the table is not what we can do by faith but what faith is.
We can master to fly by knowledge but knowledge is not "to fly". Likewise faith is not "to understand".
And the english word "understanding" has a similar origin. "Under-standing" = "hypo-stasis".
"Faith is the understanding of things hoped for......."
By saying that "faith is the understanding of things hoped for..." then you automaticaly stop to hope for them because you understand them. One can only hope for things that he does not understand fully and he can only hope that they are the way he believes them to be.
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« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2005, 11:04:38 PM »

Ipap, thank you for the translation assistance... I've misplaced my ancient Greek reference at home...and  the link you used looks very good.
I will add to what you wrote with a thought on the  bigger picture, thinking of 'what if the Latins were right', the title of this thread.    It must have been a difficult time indeed for the communication between Greek and Latin during the early church.. and I wonder did either of them ever understand what the other meant? Was that even possible??  Many times translators were used when Latin and Greeks got together in council... and we can think with some assurance that the 'translators' may have put the handle where they wanted to opportunistically...Without a formal printing method and 'duplicates' for everyone to read and see, no standard dictionary of meaning, I dare say that the language art of the time was primitive...or 'embryonic'...    Additionally, it is interesting to remember that the NT was written in Greek, but Christ spoke in Aramaic... and so we must have faith that the words recorded  convey the meaning of what was actually said...: we 'hope for the reality' that they do...  On the other hand some people  don't want to hope for the reality  that the Latin text of the Creed might convey the same meaning....even if the words are different... The truth is the Greek church was not capable of fully understanding the meaning in Latin, and vice versa.   And wherever there was a gray area, the word 'tradition' is used to justify why something is so...but again we have 'faith that the tradition represents the reality'...

In XC, Kizzy 

   
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« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2005, 05:51:35 AM »

Guys,
Context is everything.
+æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é points out that the origin of the word "hyostasis" comes from
Gk: hypo=Lat: "Sub"
Gk: Stasis = Lat "stance"

so if we put the latin together we have "substance".

An hypodermic is an injection under the dermis (skin).
The "Iconostasis" is the place where we stand the Icons.

Now what I said is if we do the same with english, we find the origin of the English word "understanding" because:


Gk: "Hypo" = Lat: "Sub" = Eng: "under"

and

Gk: "Stasis" =Lat: "Stance" = Eng: "standing"


So if we look at the origins of words: hyostasis, substance and understanding have the same origins.

If "faith is the substance of things hoped for", is the substance of something some nebulous indescribable thing?
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