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Author Topic: What happens if the Latins are right?  (Read 10863 times) Average Rating: 0
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optxogokcoc
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« on: October 27, 2004, 10:46:31 AM »

Let's for a moment assume that Rome is correct and
Mt. XVI, 18 is saying what they are saying that it is saying.

NOTE NUMBER ONE.








































Primates of the Apostolic See of Antioch


1 45-53 The Episcopacy of St. Peter, the Apostle, in Antioch.

2 53 The Episcopacy of Eudoius in Antioch.

3 68 The Episcopacy of St. Ignatius (d. 107) in Antioch.

4 100 The Episcopacy of Heros in Antioch.

5 127 The Episcopacy of Cornelius in Antioch.

6 151 The Episcopacy of Heros II in Antioch.

7 169 The Episcopacy of Theophilus (d. 181/182) in Antioch.

8 188 The Episcopacy of Maximianus (d. 190/191) in Antioch.

9 191-212 The Episcopacy of Serapion in Antioch.

10 212-218 The Episcopacy of Aslipiades in Antioch.

11 218-231 The Episcopacy of Philetus in Antioch.

12 232 The Episcopacy of Zebinus (a.k.a. Zenobius) in Antioch.

13 240 The Episcopacy of St. Babylas in Antioch.

14 253 The Episcopacy of Fabius in Antioch.

15 256 The Episcopacy of Demetrian in Antioch.

16 263 The Episcopacy of Amphilochius in Antioch.

17 267 The Episcopacy of Paul of Samosata in Antioch.

18 270 The Episcopacy of Dmonus in Antioch.

19 273 The Episcopacy of Timaeus in Antioch.

20 277 The Episcopacy of Cyril in Antioch.

21 299 The Episcopacy of Tyrannion in Antioch.

22 308 The Episcopacy of Vitalius in Antioch.

23 314 The Episcopacy of Philogonius in Antioch.

24 324 The Episcopacy of Paulinus in Antioch.

25 325 The Episcopacy of Eustathius in Antioch.

26 332 The Episcopacy of Paulinus in Antioch.

27 332 The Episcopacy of Eulalius (5 months) in Antioch.

28 333 The Episcopacy of Euphronius in Antioch.

29 334 The Episcopacy of Placentius in Antioch.

30 341 The Episcopacy of Stephanus in Antioch.

31 345 The Episcopacy of Leontius in Antioch.

32 350 The Episcopacy of Eudoxius in Antioch.

33 354 The Episcopacy of Meletius in Antioch.

34 354 The Episcopacy of Eudoxius in Antioch.

35 357 The Episcopacy of Annias (a.k.a. Ammianus) in Antioch.

36 360 The Episcopacy of Eudozius in Antioch.

37 370 The Episcopacy of Dorotheus in Antioch.

38 371 The Episcopacy of Paulinus in Antioch.

39 376 The Episcopacy of Vitalius in Antioch.

40 384 The Episcopacy of Flavian in Antioch.

41 404 The Episcopacy of Porphyrius in Antioch.

42 408 The Episcopacy of Alexander in Antioch.

43 418 The Episcopacy of Theodotus in Antioch.

44 427 The Episcopacy of John in Antioch.

45 443 The Episcopacy of Domnus II in Antioch.

46 450 The Episcopacy of Maximus in Antioch.

See elevated to dignity of a Patriarchate by the Council of Chalcedon in 451

47 459 The Patriarchate of Basil in Antioch.

48 459 The Patriarchate of Acacius in Antioch.

49 461 The Patriarchate of Martyrius in Antioch.

50 465 The Patriarchate of Peter the Fuller in Antioch.

51 466 The Patriarchate of Julian in Antioch.

52 474 The Patriarchate of Peter the Fuller in Antioch.

53 475 The Patriarchate of John II in Antioch.

54 490 The Patriarchate of Stephen II in Antioch.

55 493 The Patriarchate of Stephen III in Antioch.

56 495 The Patriarchate of Callandion in Antioch.

57 495 The Patriarchate of John Codonatus in Antioch.

58 497 The Patriarchate of Palladius in Antioch.

59 505 The Patriarchate of Flavian II in Antioch.

60 513 The Patriarchate of Severus in Antioch.

61 518 The Patriarchate of Paul II in Antioch.

62 521 The Patriarchate of Euphrasius in Antioch.

63 526 The Patriarchate of Ephraim in Antioch.

64 546 The Patriarchate of Domnus III in Antioch.

65 561 The Patriarchate of Anastasius the Sinaite in Antioch.

66 571 The Patriarchate of Gregory in Antioch.

67 594 The Patriarchate of Anastasius the Sinaite in Antioch.

68 599 The Patriarchate of Anastasius II in Antioch.

69 610 The Patriarchate of Gregory II, in Antioch.

70 620 The Patriarchate of Anastasius III in Antioch.

71 628 The Patriarchate of Macedonius in Antioch.

72 640 The Patriarchate of George in Antioch.

73 656 The Patriarchate of Macarius in Antioch.

74 681 The Patriarchate of Theophanes in Antioch.

75 687 The Patriarchate of Sebastian in Antioch.

76 690 The Patriarchate of George II in Antioch.

77 695 The Patriarchate of Alexander in Antioch.

78 742 The Patriarchate of Stephen IV in Antioch.

79 748 The Patriarchate of Theophylact in Antioch.

80 767 The Patriarchate of Theodore in Antioch.

81 797 The Patriarchate of John IV in Antioch.

82 810 The Patriarchate of Job in Antioch.

83 826 The Patriarchate of Nicholas in Antioch.

84 834 The Patriarchate of Simeon in Antioch.

85 840 The Patriarchate of Elias in Antioch.

86 852 The Patriarchate of Theodosius in Antioch.

87 860 The Patriarchate of Nicholas II in Antioch.

88 879 The Patriarchate of Michael in Antioch.

89 890 The Patriarchate of Zacharias in Antioch.

90 902 The Patriarchate of George III in Antioch.

91 917 The Patriarchate of Job II in Antioch.

92 939 The Patriarchate of Eustratius in Antioch.

93 960 The Patriarchate of Christopher in Antioch.

94 966 The Patriarchate of Theodorus II in Antioch.

95 977 The Patriarchate of Agapius in Antioch.

96 995 The Patriarchate of John IV in Antioch.

97 1000 The Patriarchate of Nicholas III in Antioch.

98 1003 The Patriarchate of Elias II in Antioch.

99 1010 The Patriarchate of George Lascaris in Antioch.

100 1015 The Patriarchate of Macarius the Virtuous in Antioch.

101 1023 The Patriarchate of Eleutherius in Antioch.

102 1028 The Patriarchate of Peter III in Antioch.

103 1051 The Patriarchate of John VI in Antioch.

104 1062 The Patriarchate of Aemilian in Antioch.

105 1075 The Patriarchate of Theodosius II in Antioch.

106 1084 The Patriarchate of Nicephorus in Antioch.

107 1090 The Patriarchate of John VII in Antioch.

108 1155 The Patriarchate of John IX in Antioch.

109 1159 The Patriarchate of Euthymius in Antioch.

110 1164 The Patriarchate of Macarius in Antioch.

111 1166 The Patriarchate of Athanasius in Antioch.

112 1180 The Patriarchate of Theodosius III in Antioch.

113 1182 The Patriarchate of Elias III in Antioch.

114 1184 The Patriarchate of Christopher II in Antioch.

115 1185 The Patriarchate of Theodore IV (Balsamon) in exile in Constantinople.

116 1199 The Patriarchate of Joachim in exile in Constantinople.

117 1219 The Patriarchate of Dorotheus in exile in Constantinople.

118 1245 The Patriarchate of Simeon II in exile in Constantinople.

119 1268 The Patriarchate of Euthymius II in exile in Constantinople.

120 1269 The Patriarchate of Theodosius IV in Antioch.

121 1276 The Patriarchate of Theodosius V in Antioch.

122 1285 The Patriarchate of Arsenius in Antioch.

123 1293 The Patriarchate of Dionysius in Antioch.

124 1308 The Patriarchate of Mark in Antioch.

Patriarchal See transferred to Damascus in 1342

125 1342 The Patriarchate of Ignatius II in Damascus.

127 1386 The Patriarchate of Pachomius in Damascus.

128 1393 The Patriarchate of Nilus in Damascus.

129 1401 The Patriarchate of Michael III in Damascus.

130 1410 The Patriarchate of Pachomius II in Damascus.

131 1411 The Patriarchate of Joachim II in Damascus.

132 1426 The Patriarchate of Mark III in Damascus.

133 1436 The Patriarchate of Dorotheus II in Damascus.

134 1454 The Patriarchate of Michael IV in Damascus.

135 1476 The Patriarchate of Mark IV in Damascus.

136 1476 The Patriarchate of Joachim III in Damascus.

137 1483 The Patriarchate of Gregory III in Damascus.

139 1497-1523 The Patriarchate of Dorotheus III in Damascus.

140 1523-1541 The Patriarchate of Michael V in Damascus.

141 1541-1543 The Patriarchate of Dorotheus IV in Damascus.

142 1543-1576 The Patriarchate of Joachim IV (Ibn Juma) in Damascus.

143 1577-1581 The Patriarchate of Michael VI (Sabbagh) in Damascus.

144 1581-1592 The Patriarchate of Joachim V in Damascus.

145 1593-1604 The Patriarchate of Joachim VI in Damascus.

146 1604-1611 The Patriarchate of Dorotheus V in Damascus.

147 1611-1619 The Patriarchate of Athanasius III (Dabbas) in Damascus.

148 1619-1631 The Patriarchate of Ignatius III (Attiyah) in Damascus.

149 1635-1636 The Patriarchate of Euthymius III in Damascus.

150 1636-1648 The Patriarchate of Euthymius IV in Damascus.

151 1648-1672 The Patriarchate of Michael III (Zaim) in Damascus.

152 1674-1684 The Patriarchate of Neophytos I in Damascus.

153 1686-1694 The Patriarchate of Athanasius IV (Dabbas) in Damascus.

154 1694-1720 The Patriarchate of Cyril III (Zaim) in Damascus.

155 1720-1724 The Patriarchate of Athanasius IV (Dabbas) in Damascus.

Separation of the Melkites. The Greek Patriarchs

156 1724-1766 The Patriarchate of Sylvester I in Damascus.

157 1766-1767 The Patriarchate of Philemon I in Damascus.

158 1767-1791 The Patriarchate of Daniel I in Damascus.

159 1792-1813 The Patriarchate of Euthymius I in Damascus.

160 1813-1823 The Patriarchate of Seraphim I in Damascus.

161 1843-1859 The Patriarchate of Methodius I in Damascus.

162 1850-1885 The Patriarchate of Hierotheos I in Damascus.

163 1885-1891 The Patriarchate of Gerasimos I in Damascus.

164 1892-1898 The Patriarchate of Spyridon I in Damascus.

Restoration of the Arab Patriarchs

165 1899-1906 The Patriarchate of Meletius II (Doumani) in Damascus.

166 1906-1928 The Patriarchate of Gregory IV(Haddad) in Damascus.

167 1928-1958 The Patriarchate of Alexander III (Tahan) in Damascus.

168 1958-1970 The Patriarchate of Theodosius VI (Abourjaily) in Damascus.

169 1970-1979 The Patriarchate of Elias IV (Muawad) in Damascus.

170 1979- The Patriarchate of Ignatius IV (Hazim, 1921- ) in Damascus.





THEY LOOSE, AGAIN.





(This is not a theological article, the writer is beeing "smart"... thats all).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 03:41:07 PM by anastasios » Logged
Elisha
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2004, 11:27:05 AM »

I really don't get your point.  Of course they're wrong - that's why we're Othodox!  But whatever you're trying to say doesn't make any sense and you don't help your case with all of your typos and bad grammar.  I realize English isn't your first language, but try a little harder to read what you wrote before you click on 'Post'.

You can show the lines of sucession from the website for the Alexandrian Patriarchate as well.  I'm sure the Anglican Church, definitely not Orthodox, can draw lines of sucession from where they broke off from the RCC, but does that prove?  Furthermore, this only seems like mean spirited bashing to me anyways.  Again, I'm Orthodox and agree that the Orthodox Church is the True Church, but this only comes off as stating some facts in some nonsensical way and trying to use them to bash the RCC.  Let it go.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 03:41:35 PM by anastasios » Logged
penelope
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2004, 11:56:05 AM »

I think he was just pointing out that St. Peter founded the Church at Antioch, as well as the Church at Rome.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 03:42:05 PM by anastasios » Logged

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optxogokcoc
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2004, 12:07:21 PM »

Elisha Elisha Elisha......

All I can tell you.. your knowlidge of english grammar is ..... excellent.. I am just a poor man from a small willage.. we just got telephone last month.. and I dont even know how to use it... there are all these buttons and numbers...

Do you know how to use the phone?

If you do... please.. call somebody who cares.

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ania
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2004, 12:11:27 PM »

ZZZZZZing...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 03:42:16 PM by anastasios » Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2004, 02:32:55 PM »

Furthermore, this only seems like mean spirited bashing to me anyways.  Again, I'm Orthodox and agree that the Orthodox Church is the True Church, but this only comes off as stating some facts in some nonsensical way and trying to use them to bash the RCC.  Let it go.

The most important point of my post if he bothered to read it.  ania's response is the best though.

penelope, point understood.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 03:42:31 PM by anastasios » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2004, 03:42:44 PM »

I just wanted to let people know that I edited all the posts to fix the title; I didn't touch anyone's comments.

Anastasios
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2004, 03:47:52 PM »

 Roll Eyes

Gee Dad, thanks; if we clean up our room can we stay up an hour later too?
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2004, 04:26:08 PM »

What happens if the Latins are right?  Then we're in big trouble.  Wink

Roll Eyes

Gee Dad, thanks; if we clean up our room can we stay up an hour later too?

No, because you ate a hot dog today.  Tongue

I don't know what the title of the posts became that Anastasios edited it, but we generally prefer that posts keep the original title of the thread.  I vaguely remember our having said something like that in the past.
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2004, 04:37:07 PM »

What I edited was an all-caps title with a spelling error. That's all Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2004, 04:38:13 PM »

Right about what ? Papal Primacy ? Filioque ?

I don't let it stress me, the Lord knows my hearts' intent.

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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2004, 10:53:30 PM »

How about "Why would happen if the Latins were right?" ?

Of course if they were right about papal primacy, then truth would be constantly changing to go along with the novel views of the latest pope.  Each one's motto would, logically, be "La tradition, c'est moi."  -- that is, "Sola papa."

I'm just glad to be free finally from both the Roman & the reformation/revolution forms of protestantism.

Porter

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optxogokcoc
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2004, 09:04:07 AM »

I was thinking.. because some have problems with my english.. maybe.. I should post in serbian or greek or french or spanish or russian.... you choose..

I love you guys... you still think Einstain was an idiot because his english was not as good as yours.... in how many languages can you make mistakes?

Enough on that.

Point of MY POST (that abbot of this monastery has so nicely rendered in proper english.. thanks) is not bashing of RC... it is pointing on egsegesis (such a nice english word) of Mt XVI, 18. by RC's... so if it is them that are right.. then it is them that are wrong.

Seriously, Elisha.. chill mate.. and read posts of others.. not just your own.... Are you going to quote youself... again?

Excuse me on my inproper english...
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2004, 10:06:56 AM »

Quote
No, because you ate a hot dog today.

So there was somebody watching me yesterday! I knew it!  Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2004, 11:02:45 AM »

Orthodoxos,

I understand your posts, there are many who don't quite spell that well, don't worry, your thoughts get across.

james
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 07:20:31 PM »

Honi soit qui mal y pense!
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2004, 12:17:54 PM »

//What happens if the Latins are right?//

Now here is someone with a taste for the hypothetical.

JoeS
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2005, 12:40:49 PM »

What if Catholics like myself who accept the Primacy of Peter and his succesors are right?

You will be judged according to what God has revealed to you. If you believe in the Pope then you better convert. If not then you better stay where you are. Pray, pray, pray, and pray some more, then study, and pray some more. For the studying part click on the link. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/papacy.htm

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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2005, 12:56:21 PM »

[What if Catholics like myself who accept the Primacy of Peter and his succesors are right? ]

Oh boy, just what we need another Roman Catholic proseltyzer!

This might surprise you catholickid, be we Orthodox Catholics also accept a primacy of Peter.  We just don't accept a 'Supremacy of Peter'.

Since you recommended a website let me also recommend a few for you -

http://www.a2z.org/acts/articles/primacy/




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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2005, 12:57:26 PM »

To paraphrase an Anglican priest I knew during my former delusions, if the Latins are right, I'll eat my chotki.
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2005, 01:22:20 PM »

What if Catholics like myself who accept the Primacy of Peter and his succesors are right?

You will be judged according to what God has revealed to you. If you believe in the Pope then you better convert. If not then you better stay where you are. Pray, pray, pray, and pray some more, then study, and pray some more. For the studying part click on the link. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/papacy.htm

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Praised Be Jesus Christ!

Oh please, wake up and smell Vatican II.  Have you read your own catechism or what your church leaders are saying lately?
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2005, 01:33:39 PM »

Quote
Oh please, wake up and smell Vatican II.  Have you read your own catechism or what your church leaders are saying lately?

LOL!!!!!!!!!! Grin Grin
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2005, 01:39:34 PM »

If they are right in what? In placing the Pope as leader of the Church, instead of Jesus?
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2005, 01:45:31 PM »

The Pope is the Visible head of the Church. He is the Prime Minister of the Kingdom. Prefigured in the OT. Isaiah 22

CHRIST IS KING.
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2005, 01:46:29 PM »

And yet again, my dear brothers and sisters miss the point... yet again....God bless you...
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2005, 02:22:21 PM »

I've read Dante's Inferno, if the Papists are right, I'd probably rather end up in hell...their concept of heaven seem so boring...at least things are happening in hell. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2005, 02:27:33 PM »

I've read Dante's Inferno, if the Papists are right, I'd probably rather end up in hell...their concept of heaven seem so boring...at least things are happening in hell. Wink

I've been curious to read it since so many people talke about it, but it sounds kinda scary.  Maybe I'm confusing it with another book of that era.  It seemed scary - as related from watching se7en.  How big is it?  In a sentence (or three) what is their concept vs ours?  Thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2005, 03:03:45 PM »


I've been curious to read it since so many people talke about it, but it sounds kinda scary. Maybe I'm confusing it with another book of that era. It seemed scary - as related from watching se7en. How big is it? In a sentence (or three) what is their concept vs ours? Thanks.

Dante's The Divine Comedy is a three part (often in 3 volumes for ease of handling) work "Inferno" "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso"  I first read it at about age 12 or so in the John Ciardi translation that uses a three line verse form (not "Terza Rima" that Dante used, but it works just fine)  Ciardi was an excellent poet so his translation is very accessable.  He also includes lots of notes and explanations of the politics referred to (how to tell a Guelph from a Ghibelline), literary allusions and other helpful things.  Oh yes, and "Comedy" doesn't refer to being funny but having a good ending as opposed to a tragic one.

In the Divine Comedy Dante is met in a dark wood in the middle of his life (it's all very symbolic and allegorical in places, but don't let that stop you) by the Roman poet Virgil who as the embodyment of human wisdom.  He takes Dante on a trip down through Hell then up the mountain of Purgatory (which Dante places at the opposite side of the globe from Jerusalem.... see they did know the world was round  Wink )  But Virgil cannot go into Paradise, that takes someone who is enlightened by God, in this case the spirit of Beatrice, a lady whom Dante admired from afar and who died young.  The time in Hell is during Good Friday and Holy Saturday iirc, with the ascent through the other two taking several days of Easter Week.

The punishments of the damned and the purifications of the souls in Purgatory are very symbolic in how they relate to the sins.  Don't worry, Ciardi explains things. 

I hope that's helpful.

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2005, 03:06:06 PM »

I've read Dante's Inferno, if the Papists are right, I'd probably rather end up in hell...their concept of heaven seem so boring...at least things are happening in hell. Wink

and just which of the 9 Circles do you think you'd be in?  Huh Grin 


just joking here.

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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2005, 03:11:39 PM »

and just which of the 9 Circles do you think you'd be in? Huh Grin

I always liked Brutus, maybe I could share a room (or a mouth) with him Wink ...I guess I'm not one to do things in moderation  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2005, 03:14:07 PM »



I always liked Brutus, maybe I could share a room (or a mouth) with him Wink ...I guess I'm not one to do things in moderation Grin

Eeeyargg!   I think that they aren't taking any more ummm applicants for *that* area. 

 Cheesy Grin 

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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2005, 03:20:25 PM »

Eeeyargg! I think that they aren't taking any more ummm applicants for *that* area.

No matter how great my treason and betrayal, I can't even have a shot at one of the places in the deepest depths of hell just because I was born too late, and the lucky three were already chosen? That doesnt really seem fair. Where can I file my lawsuit against this this worst kind of discrimination!?!?!? :satan: (i.e. discrimination against me  Grin )
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2005, 04:46:29 PM »

Honestly I think if somebody is worried about bringing a group in to line with the current teachings of and beliefs about the Papacy, they should start with the American Catholic laity and not worry about the Orthodox.
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2005, 05:17:18 PM »

Nothing happens. Whether we are right or you are right dosen't change the fact that we were one Church for 1000 years and during that time the Pope was the bishop of primacy.
 
We need to find a way to reconsile and not try to make the other side feel inferior or wrong etc.

We need a much more vigirous effort and dialogue between our leaders. If only we could agree to have an ecumenical council with the aim of reunification.
I was thinking.. because some have problems with my english.. maybe.. I should post in serbian or greek or french or spanish or russian.... you choose..

I love you guys... you still think Einstain was an idiot because his english was not as good as yours.... in how many languages can you make mistakes?

Enough on that.

Point of MY POST (that abbot of this monastery has so nicely rendered in proper english.. thanks) is not bashing of RC... it is pointing on egsegesis (such a nice english word) of Mt XVI, 18. by RC's... so if it is them that are right.. then it is them that are wrong.

Seriously, Elisha.. chill mate.. and read posts of others.. not just your own.... Are you going to quote youself... again?

Excuse me on my inproper english...
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2005, 05:44:18 PM »

Let me rewrite the question "What happens if Orthodox Church is wrong ?"

Because in that case the winner might as well be Budism, or Hinduism along with Latin Theology.


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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2005, 06:17:23 PM »

All things shall return to the One from which they emanate. Soteriologically, the only question is how we will respond to He Who Is, will we embrace or reject Him in eternity? How's that to reducing it to a philosophical issue?
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2005, 03:21:28 AM »

Nothing happens. Whether we are right or you are right dosen't change the fact that we were one Church for 1000 years and during that time the Pope was the bishop of primacy.
 
We need to find a way to reconsile and not try to make the other side feel inferior or wrong etc.

We need a much more vigirous effort and dialogue between our leaders. If only we could agree to have an ecumenical council with the aim of reunification.



Amen... Fulfilling Christ's last Will and testament...nice to see this wish here...  EP Bartholomew and Pope JPIi recognized from the EO/RC working groups who recommended working toward unity and resolution of differences,  that this is something to truly pray for and dialogue on.. Hopefully the next Pope will continue in this vane...

In XC, Kizzy

 

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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2005, 07:31:37 PM »

We would love to have the RC Church come home, but they are going to have to give up all the doctrines that don't agree with Orthodoxy and the Pope being the universal head of the Church.  The only way that will happen is through a miracle of God.  Even the Prodigal Son had to come home to get his welcome from the Father. 
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2005, 07:36:29 PM »

We would love to have the RC Church come home, but they are going to have to give up all the doctrines that don't agree with Orthodoxy and the Pope being the universal head of the Church. The only way that will happen is through a miracle of God. Even the Prodigal Son had to come home to get his welcome from the Father.

I really like the post above.  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2005, 07:57:57 PM »

>Even the Prodigal Son had to come home to get his welcome from the Father.

It sounds logical. But then why Christ was crucified for? Why didn't He wait for the "Prodigal Son" to return?

Be humble, and then the Truth shall shine like the sun. Christians were ordered to be the Light of the world.

Have you ever missed someone from your family?

Let me refer to a personal incident: My aunt is missing for nearly 65 years. I have not been born at the time. Her parents, her sisters and brothers, and generally everyone in the family were trying to find her since then (unfortunately, with no result). The pain for the loss is insupportable.

Do we fell an insupportable pain for the loss of our brothers in the Catholic Church? Only this pain has the power to reunite the Church. We need no miracle, but one: to live other people lives as ours. Then their loss will be our loss and their salvation will also be our salvation.



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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2005, 09:45:28 PM »

>Even the Prodigal Son had to come home to get his welcome from the Father.


Do we fell an insupportable pain for the loss of our brothers in the Catholic Church? Only this pain has the power to reunite the Church. We need no miracle, but one: to live other people lives as ours. Then their loss will be our loss and their salvation will also be our salvation.
 

Ipap, this was beautiful... Unfortunately there is a  stance among some Orthodox to simply not want to see any resolution to the situation... unfortunately the pain of the loss is not there, just an ego for being Orthodox.  The more we speak from a stance of ' ego' , the further away from the church we become...  The Holy see of Peter is missing from the church of the EC...whatever the reason... we need to pray for it's return... rather than bicker about what 'they' will have to do.... we should think and dialogue  about what 'we' have to do to bring the church's together...then we will truly be Orthodox Christians....walk in their shoes, understand the issues they have faced through history and if we don't agree with the solutions they made...We need to work with them to resolve them.  Change only happens from within an organization, unless it is vigilant from the outside...like the Ottomans...We will have no influence by taking an adversarial stance from afar. The more Orthodox Chrisitians behave as adversaries, the more we work against furthering the faith....
In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2005, 09:46:58 PM »

Amen well said!



Ipap, this was beautiful... Unfortunately there is a stance among some Orthodox to simply not want to see any resolution to the situation... unfortunately the pain of the loss is not there, just an ego for being Orthodox. The more we speak from a stance of ' ego' , the further away from the church we become... The Holy see of Peter is missing from the church of the EC...whatever the reason... we need to pray for it's return... rather than bicker about what 'they' will have to do.... we should think and dialogue about what 'we' have to do to bring the church's together...then we will truly be Orthodox Christians....walk in their shoes, understand the issues they have faced through history and if we don't agree with the solutions they made...We need to work with them to resolve them. Change only happens from within an organization, unless it is vigilant from the outside...like the Ottomans...We will have no influence by taking an adversarial stance from afar. The more Orthodox Chrisitians behave as adversaries, the more we work against furthering the faith....
In XC, Kizzy

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« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2005, 11:12:42 PM »


... Unfortunately there is a stance among some Orthodox to simply not want to see any resolution to the situation... unfortunately the pain of the loss is not there, just an ego for being Orthodox. The more we speak from a stance of ' ego' ,

Shucks. Talk about 'ego'...
All this sounds nice, sticky-sweet. Very Freemason-ish in fact (remember, I was one).
When the Latins are Orthodox again...wonderful. They may not now be very wrong, but they are NOT right.
Until then, as in 1270, 1439, and now... +ƒ+º+Ö.
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« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2005, 11:59:05 PM »

Truth is not a relative thing.  The Orthodox Church has taught the truth and kept that truth from the beginning.  Read the New Testament epistles.  Peter and Paul came down very hard with people who taught false doctrines.  They fought them tirelessly, and so has the Church.  I guess they should have let Arius and the other heretics just stay in the Church and teach their false doctrines instead of excommunicating them and exiling them.  If anyone wanted to come back into the Church, they had to repent of their false doctrines and give them up. 

Truth matters and we need to stand up for the truth.  Look how many different Gods and Christs are worshipped by Christians.  Sometimes, I'm not at all sure we are talking about the same God and Christ when I talk to some.  Is the God and Christ of Calvinism the same God and Christ of Orthodoxy?  I'm not at all sure about that. 
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2005, 12:18:26 AM »

Sister Katherine,

I agree with you that to repent is needed, but let me clarify something.
You can not learn how to swim unless you get wet. Sometimes seems that we ask for the impossible.

How can anyone deny his (false) faith in order to receive a new (true) one if he can not taste the truth. It is not enough to believe by logic or by knowledge. The most important of all is to have the experience of truth.

Orthodox Church is a Church of empirical faith. If we deny the "empirical" part we may not ask for the faith.

The God of Calvinism does not exist. The God of Orthodoxy does not exist.

The God of Katherine, of Peter, of John, of Mary truly exists. The God is a Trinity relation of Three Persons. He does not exist according to theological systems or truths or dogmas.

He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, George, John, Mary. He is the God of living persons.

You wonder whether you are talking about the same God and Christ when you talk to another human. You may surprisingly find that you are talking about exactly the same God. Live the life of others and then you may find something new about them. You may find that they know the real true God the same Who you know and they have not realize it. That they have a (false) faith that contradicts their true experience of God. Then you may reveal to them the Truth they already have tasted but they are unaware of.

This is how ancient Christians brought other people to Church. By living their lives and by revealing to them that they share the same experience regarding God. Then they show to them that their original faith was wrong and that the new Cristian faith was compatible with their original true experience of God.

katherine speak with the other person about his/hers God and your God, not about the God of Calvinism and the God of Orthodoxy. Live his/her life. I assure you it is not so different of yours.

Finaly if Church cut off Arius and others from His Body this is not the way to live you life with everybody.

Excommunication is trying to give a second chance to a person that previously experienced the life of Christ and now has stoped doing so. Excommunication is not a punishement but a proposal for "the lost lamb" to be found.
Excommunication is not isolation and loneliness.
Excommunication is a declaration to the believer of wrong faith that he needs to live the Life of Chirst.
Excommunication is not a fence that protects right believers from delusive ones.

Finaly I agree with you that Truth is not a relative thing. It is a personal experience.
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