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Author Topic: Why do Icons cry/weep?  (Read 4325 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2012, 04:36:16 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2012, 04:48:26 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP
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Marc1152
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 05:03:37 PM »

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The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2012, 05:11:32 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2012, 05:15:01 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now

Where/When in DC?
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2012, 05:52:47 PM »

Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

Zenovia makes the suggestion that this miracle has been proven in a lab or something.

Orthonorm responds by asking for evidence of that.

Zenovia has not provided it.

Who is being irresponsible here?

Suggesting, without any evidence, that a miracle has been somehow proven in a lab is more offensive to piety than orthonorm's straightforward request. It represents a capitulation to scientism and empiricism, and a crass exploitation thereof.
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2012, 06:45:51 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 


When people question miracles, did they ever wonder how Christianity spread in Europe and the Near and Middle East after all Bibles didn't exist except in monasteries and/or homes of the nobility... and even if they did people were illiterate.  Not only do miracles exist but black magic does as well, so  we really should judge everything I guess  by the fruit it bears.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 06:48:19 PM »

When people question miracles,

When you claim that miracles have been somehow "scientifically" proven, you are questioning the miracle.
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witega
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »

When people question miracles,

No one on this thread is questioning miracles. There has been some skepticism expressed about this or that specific miracle, and *you* have been questioned about your claims that a particular miracle had been scientifically validated--since unlike miracles, scientific validation is not a matter of faith but of empirical evidence that, by definition, should be producible.

(BTW, my one encounter with a 'weeping icon' was one that was in fact later proven to be a hoax--about the same time that the monastery it was kept at was being disbanded because of the abbot's convictions on sexual abuse charges. Hoaxes exist, something our episcopacy fully acknowledges. Criticizing skepticism and uncritically accepting every claim to the miraculous is an abdication of the rational mind given us by God and an open invitation to demons and wolves in sheep's clothing to do their worst.)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:07:41 PM by witega » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 07:22:28 PM »

Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

Zenovia makes the suggestion that this miracle has been proven in a lab or something.

Orthonorm responds by asking for evidence of that.

Zenovia has not provided it.

Who is being irresponsible here?

Suggesting, without any evidence, that a miracle has been somehow proven in a lab is more offensive to piety than orthonorm's straightforward request. It represents a capitulation to scientism and empiricism, and a crass exploitation thereof.

Oh get off it.  If Orthonorm wants proof all he has to do is go to google and type in: Crying icons, Saint Pauls Cathedral, Hempstead, N.Y.

Anyway there are some discrepancies in the way I remember the events, and the way they are written up here.   If I recall correctly, it was the first icon that was examined not the second, and that the lab said the tears were the same as human tears but without the impurities:

To pacify the doubters, reporters, and non-believers the second Icon was removed from it's frame to see where the tears were emanating. There was no source of tears or moisture on the back of the lithograph. A major New York paper called and asked to have the tears analyzed at a laboratory. The results showed that "the tears were of a oily nature which couldn't be classified among the known elements".


http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping86.htm
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 07:59:29 PM »

When people question miracles,

When you claim that miracles have been somehow "scientifically" proven, you are questioning the miracle.

Actually I'm not questioning the miracle,  I am merely stating a fact when I said the tears of one of the icons was examined.   Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2012, 08:53:10 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2012, 10:14:45 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now

Where/When in DC?

Early June.. Plans are a bit fluid at this point. St. John the Baptist Cathedral in DC and probably Holy Apostles Mission in Beltsville.

I will post when I have something exact.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2012, 10:48:12 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.

No, he doesn't.  But there's three things he excels at: bizarre claims, cynicism and being a smart-ass.  The Energizer battery company tried to find a termination clause for the bunny so they could hire his mouth.  Here in the good 'ol US of A, most of us live under the motto of E Pluribus Unum but the motto on the tickets to Normicon is "Yeah, right."  I pray his neighbors fill his apartment with an all-night vigil consisting of foreign releases of Insane Clown Posse on a constant loop.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.

No, he doesn't.  But there's three things he excels at: bizarre claims, cynicism and being a smart-ass.  The Energizer battery company tried to find a termination clause for the bunny so they could hire his mouth.  Here in the good 'ol US of A, most of us live under the motto of E Pluribus Unum but the motto on the tickets to Normicon is "Yeah, right."  I pray his neighbors fill his apartment with an all-night vigil consisting of foreign releases of Insane Clown Posse on a constant loop.

File under envy. It is becoming grossly obvious. Dial it back.

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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2012, 10:58:02 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2012, 11:02:10 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:02:40 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2012, 11:03:37 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2012, 11:14:18 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2012, 11:18:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2012, 11:22:17 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:23:22 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2012, 11:33:36 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
At the risk of side tracking, I will try that out some time. My older daughters always coming home from school (4th grade) these days needing to come up with some new science experiment. This sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly.
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:56 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2012, 11:38:18 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.

God doesn't give His miracles so they can remain hidden.  If these miracles weren't on the web wouldn't we be offending God?   Huh
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2012, 11:38:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
At the risk of side tracking, I will try that out some time. My older daughters always coming home from school (4th grade) these days needing to come up with some new science experiment. This sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly.

I would be interested in their results using honey, various vinegars, and Miller High Life.

The post with my observation on fruit flies and MHL:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39967.msg648566.html#msg648566

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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.

Who or what is RL?  Huh
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« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2012, 12:12:12 AM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.

God doesn't give His miracles so they can remain hidden.  If these miracles weren't on the web wouldn't we be offending God?   Huh

Only God would know.
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« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2012, 12:13:14 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.

Who or what is RL?  Huh

Sorry, RL = "Real" life.
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« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2012, 12:17:41 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

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« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2012, 12:20:12 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2012, 12:25:22 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Canon 34 doesn't apply in this thread.   Smiley

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

I hope you have a good night's sleep.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2012, 03:03:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."



One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,   I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.  The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives. 

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2012, 03:25:27 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2012, 03:26:43 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink

From the amount of time you spend trying to get my attention, you would be the President of the Club.
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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2012, 05:17:35 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink

From the amount of time you spend trying to get my attention, you would be the President of the Club.

Srsly?  The second I show up you're eying me like a stoner eyes a box of Girl Scouts Thin Mint cookies.  I never had a puppy that follows me around as much.  But hey, it's cool.  I got it; everybody likes a guy with Cowboy boots. 
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2012, 05:57:24 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.

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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2012, 06:01:57 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,  I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.

The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives.

What kind of prayer life?  That's for existing threads which beat that subject to death.

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?   Huh

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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2012, 07:47:14 PM »

The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

He can appear as such, but the fruit he bears is putrid, rotten.  Discernment is only possible with repentance and prayer.  Two things I know about only ideologically thus far.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2012, 08:17:53 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,  I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.

]The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives.

What kind of prayer life?  That's for existing threads which beat that subject to death.

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?   Huh



The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2012, 10:44:45 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2012, 09:05:26 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

It may have been someone else who said "there is proof for this one" but it wasnt me.

Someone asked what the Myrrh is made of. I replied that a vile was tested in a lab and here what the guy said it was made of.

Then Norm in his usual sneering tone said that it wasn't "Peer Reviewed" which is a really dumb pot shot.

Very simple. A vile was analyzed. Here is want the guy found it was made from... Period.

If that infuriates Norm or others then I would suggest looking into some sort of stress reduction therapy.

If you spend enough time with one of these Icons as I have, you will quickly dismiss claims that it's a trick or fraud.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:06:01 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2012, 09:22:42 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

It may have been someone else who said "there is proof for this one" but it wasnt me.

Someone asked what the Myrrh is made of. I replied that a vile was tested in a lab and here what the guy said it was made of.

Then Norm in his usual sneering tone said that it wasn't "Peer Reviewed" which is a really dumb pot shot.

Very simple. A vile was analyzed. Here is want the guy found it was made from... Period.

If that infuriates Norm or others then I would suggest looking into some sort of stress reduction therapy.

If you spend enough time with one of these Icons as I have, you will quickly dismiss claims that it's a trick or fraud.

"vial"

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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2012, 09:47:53 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...
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