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Author Topic: Why do Icons cry/weep?  (Read 4698 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ergib
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« on: May 07, 2012, 09:39:19 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 09:53:52 AM »


To get our attention.
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 10:54:53 AM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 11:12:59 AM »

I used to think that they wept.  However, someone once brought me "myrrh" from a weeping Icon, and it smelled nothing like Myrrh.  Then I had a chance to smell the "myrrh" from another one.  Again, it smelled like something that had been whipped up, not like Myrrh from a real bush.  This has caused me some doubt.  Perhaps Icon Myrrh is different than the real stuff?
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 02:41:28 PM »

They get touchy-feely or lonely.
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 03:00:52 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 03:31:17 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 03:34:51 PM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.

I understand.  I would really like to see something like this for myself.  When I asked my charismatic friends why I never saw any of the things they spoke of, it was always because "I didnt believe enough." 
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 03:39:03 PM »

I have been blessed with seeing the Hawaiian Iveron Icon many times and have spent some time with Reader Nectari the icon's caretaker.

The fact is that the Orthodox are very circumspect about Wonder Working Icons. They don't push them on unbeleivers and in my experience there is more to them then most people even know about.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

Can I take option d) all of the above?
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 04:30:46 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I think the use of the word "myrrh" here is very broad, and means more like "fragrant oil", referencing how myrrh resin was often used in perfumes, especially burial spices.
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:46 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I think the use of the word "myrrh" here is very broad, and means more like "fragrant oil", referencing how myrrh resin was often used in perfumes, especially burial spices.

Thank you.  That helps.
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 09:10:49 PM »

I used to think that they wept.  However, someone once brought me "myrrh" from a weeping Icon, and it smelled nothing like Myrrh.  Then I had a chance to smell the "myrrh" from another one.  Again, it smelled like something that had been whipped up, not like Myrrh from a real bush.  This has caused me some doubt.  Perhaps Icon Myrrh is different than the real stuff?

I have some myrrh that came from an icon.  It has the most beautiful myrrh scent with some rose undertones.  Being my ever inquisitive self, I decided to conduct an experiment.  I placed some fresh cotton next to the oil soaked myrrh scented one and  voila.  The fresh cotton not only became oily itself, but fully absorbed the scent as well.   Even more  curious is that the small wooden box containing it did not absorb the scent. 

Anyway I don't know why  icons weep.  I think there was one in a Serbian Church weeping before the Kosovan war, but I am not sure.   I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara. 

There were other phenomenon as well, such as three doves flying over the procession carrying the first icon to the Church and also circling above it while the Liturgy was in session.  It was soon written up in a major newspaper and thousands began to line up outside the Church.  Inside,  Catholic nuns were  grouped reciting the Rosary.   angel
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 11:18:44 PM »

This is a VERY touchy subject for me.

First (and the worst), there is an icon that I have witnessed weeping, that was in the old Blanco monastery in Texas.  The priest admitted faking it, and I believe he was also involved in some type of sexual criminal investigation.   It was a HORRIBLE tragedy.  Also a horrible lie to do this.  I don't know why he did it.

Now, I have been blessed in my life to have witnessed REAL weeping icons.   Even ones that I got to hold in my hand that were not well known.   They were at the time, scary, holy, mystifying, and beautiful.   These were at monasteries as well, and one at a priest's home.  I was holding and Icon of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, where the hands and feet were secreting an oil.   The priest wiped up the oil with cotton (for anointing).  This icon WAS IN MY HANDS.  I felt the wood on the back of it.  Solid.  No funny business, without doubt, drops seemed to "appear" not secrete, but slowly "grow" again out of the hands and feet.   I will never forget this experience in my entire life.   It is real that some icons do weep/secrete, or are mystically anointed somehow.  

One other experience that I had was with a bronze cross (typical large priests cross).   The priest discovered one Saturday evening that his main church cross (for veneration at the end of liturgy) was covered in a very strong scented oil.   Well, he did not know how it got that way, and brought it to a sink and scrubbed it off with a sponge.   He also used soap.  At the time I was an altar boy, and I witnessed the priest scrubbing/washing the cross.    He patted it dry, and we walked back into the church with the cross in his hand.  It began GUSHING the sweet smelling oil out again, and completely was everywhere on his hand, sleeve, etc.  I was sent to the local corner store to buy cotton balls!

The other icons were from very kind individuals that I would consider extremely credible, with nothing to gain.  The most famous that I've seen was in Chicago, and the icon of the Theotokos weeped tears of oil.  This was back in the 1980's.  I had no chance to examine it at all.  There are numerous accounts of icons on Mt. Athos weeping.

Now, to answer your question.

I've seen several and I can't fully answer your question, but I can tell you what others say.

Some say the weeping icons are because they "cry for the world".
Others say its to prove there is something to unbelievers.
Some say its to call back protestant Christians to Orthodoxy.
Some say its a flat miracle, end of story.

My personal opinion is that they are a miracle, and that they will mean something different and special to each person.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 11:47:48 AM »

Those that I know don't use the term "Weeping Icon" so much but rather "Myrrh Streaming Icon"

As to what the Myrrh is made of I have told this story before. I hope I still have the details right

Reader Nectari caretaker of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon  once gave a full vile of the Myrrh to a Man who approached him at a Church the icon was visiting. Reader Nectari mentioned that he had an uneasy feeling about the man but gave him the vile of myrrh in any event..

It turned out that he was a chemist and brought the vile of myrrh to his lab and had it analyzed. In the first place it was a combination of water and oils but held together in a way that is impossible for Oil and Water together ( sorry, I have no education in chemistry at all so I cant explain further).
 
Part of the oil came from plants that only grow around Jerusalem and other oils from Egypt. And not even from parts of the plants/trees where oil is commonly extracted but from roots and stems. And then another oil that was impossible to analyze that the lab had never encountered before.

I will look for my old post. My memory is fading a bit on the details. But the upshot is that the man who had it analyzed came to Reader Nectari at a later date and was very agitated and kept asking in a loud voice "What is this? What is this?"

I have witnessed the strong smell of Rose come up from the Icon as prayer intensifies and  then subsides. Once I was standing only a few feet from Reader Nectari and looked him right in the eye when the fragrance came up very strongly. He just gave me a look and a shrug as if to say 'Told you so'

I have seen a gray misty cloud form over the icon before it starts streaming. I have, along with others, stood over the Icon long enough to clearly see droplets form and then run down. Often the glass inside the casing gets covered with oil and we needed to wipe in down so people can see the image.

This icon is very good when it comes to people with some doubt or skepticism who need to see for themselves.

Rocor is very careful before they declare an Icon Wonderworking. They took this Icon from Reader Nectari for many months when it first began to stream and brought it to the Cathedral in SF. They took their time before they returned it and asked him to be it's caretaker. They do not take such things lightly.
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 02:53:11 PM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.

I guess we are both wrong, the year was 1960.  Checking up on it, I found that an icon of Saint Nicholas was gushing myrhh in the same church a few years ago.  What made the miracles of 1960  so important though, was that the country was very Protestant at the time  and these things were unheard of.  This is why it attracted so many Catholics.  Hundreds of thousands all over the New York City area were lined up to see the icons.   

Vatican II might have come about because of these miracles and  the pressure the Catholics placed on the Pope to unite the Churches, but I'm only assuming this because of the sequence of events.  Arch Iakovos had only been in office six  months when this occurred and  ten years ago I came across a letter on the internet addressed to him from the World Council of Churches.  He was told he could not be a member if he responded to the Pope's invitation for dialogue.   I looked for it on the Archdiocesan site later on, but couldn't find it so don't take everything I'm writing as being one hundred percent factual,  I could be mistaken.  Huh
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 03:14:04 PM »

Those that I know don't use the term "Weeping Icon" so much but rather "Myrrh Streaming Icon"

As to what the Myrrh is made of I have told this story before. I hope I still have the details right

Reader Nectari caretaker of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon  once gave a full vile of the Myrrh to a Man who approached him at a Church the icon was visiting. Reader Nectari mentioned that he had an uneasy feeling about the man but gave him the vile of myrrh in any event..

It turned out that he was a chemist and brought the vile of myrrh to his lab and had it analyzed. In the first place it was a combination of water and oils but held together in a way that is impossible for Oil and Water together ( sorry, I have no education in chemistry at all so I cant explain further).
 
Part of the oil came from plants that only grow around Jerusalem and other oils from Egypt. And not even from parts of the plants/trees where oil is commonly extracted but from roots and stems. And then another oil that was impossible to analyze that the lab had never encountered before.

I will look for my old post. My memory is fading a bit on the details. But the upshot is that the man who had it analyzed came to Reader Nectari at a later date and was very agitated and kept asking in a loud voice "What is this? What is this?"

I have witnessed the strong smell of Rose come up from the Icon as prayer intensifies and  then subsides. Once I was standing only a few feet from Reader Nectari and looked him right in the eye when the fragrance came up very strongly. He just gave me a look and a shrug as if to say 'Told you so'

I have seen a gray misty cloud form over the icon before it starts streaming. I have, along with others, stood over the Icon long enough to clearly see droplets form and then run down. Often the glass inside the casing gets covered with oil and we needed to wipe in down so people can see the image.

This icon is very good when it comes to people with some doubt or skepticism who need to see for themselves.

Rocor is very careful before they declare an Icon Wonderworking. They took this Icon from Reader Nectari for many months when it first began to stream and brought it to the Cathedral in SF. They took their time before they returned it and asked him to be it's caretaker. They do not take such things lightly.

Actually the icons in Hempstead in 1960 were weeping real tears.  Since miracles and crying icons was an anomaly in that day and age and especially in a Protestant country, the tears were thoroughly examined and found to have the same composition as real tears but without the impurities one would find in human tears.  angel

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 03:58:41 PM »

Thanks All!

I will be heading to New York soon and hoping to visiting/seeing the weeping Icons of the Virgin Mary and St Nicholas there.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 04:53:57 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.

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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 08:49:04 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 08:54:12 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.

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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 10:16:57 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.



Shame on you
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 10:21:07 PM »

To be fair, it was Zenovia who first raised the banner of scientism with her "thoroughly examined" claim. In light of that orthonorm's request is reasonable.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 12:46:25 AM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.

I guess we are both wrong, the year was 1960.  Checking up on it, I found that an icon of Saint Nicholas was gushing myrhh in the same church a few years ago.  What made the miracles of 1960  so important though, was that the country was very Protestant at the time  and these things were unheard of.  This is why it attracted so many Catholics.  Hundreds of thousands all over the New York City area were lined up to see the icons.   

Vatican II might have come about because of these miracles and  the pressure the Catholics placed on the Pope to unite the Churches, but I'm only assuming this because of the sequence of events.  Arch Iakovos had only been in office six  months when this occurred and  ten years ago I came across a letter on the internet addressed to him from the World Council of Churches.  He was told he could not be a member if he responded to the Pope's invitation for dialogue.   I looked for it on the Archdiocesan site later on, but couldn't find it so don't take everything I'm writing as being one hundred percent factual,  I could be mistaken.  Huh

Thanks Zenovia, I think it should be now a simple matter to search the NY Times archive, if there is anything worthwhile I will type out the photographed clipping. I now have access to my left hand fingers.

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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 01:01:01 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.

I don't doubt it. It just when people start using "science" to back up their claims without the degree of proof this board demands when making such claims is what I find to be problematic.

All forms of discourse have their truth and method of inquiry: legend, myth, anecdote, science, etc.

Your witness I do not not doubt. The claims suggesting chemical analysis being performed which defied the laws of science as we know them but for some reason never published, I must necessarily ask for the appropriate evidence.

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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 01:41:00 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 01:41:28 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 


 
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 01:45:54 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 01:47:10 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.

In laughter over the Herman thread.
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 02:14:29 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I don't think it's possible to be Orthodox and not believe in the possibility of such miracles. But the only specific miracles you actually have to believe in are the Incarnation and the Resurrection--God became man and then conquered sin and death, because without those two miracles there no substance to our faith. And once you believe those, it's kind of silly to say that other miracles are not possible or unrealistic. But as far as any specific contemporary miracle goes, the Scriptures and the Fathers both encourage a healthy dose of scepticism--"test the spirits"--because if you believe in such miracles then you also believe in the accounts of demons appearing as angels of light, not to mention the basic proposition that human beings are fallen and they lie.

I believe in the Holy Fire--it seems well-attested over a very long time, and I've never seen anyone propose a realistic explanation for how such a hoax could have been pulled off for such a long time without any substantive evidence that it's not legitimate other than to assume that such a miracle is not possible. The same is true of the more venerable 'weeping icons'. But if they were proved to be hoaxes tomorrow; or if someone was to try to use them to justify teaching unorthodox belief, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) affect my actual Faith in the risen Christ at all.
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.



Shame on you

I don't think people of his caliber are worth responding to.  Best to ignore them.   Wink
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.

There is a Woman in my Parish that did the same. A Myrrh Streaming Icon was taken around by car to the homes of the sick and elderly. She was tasked with holding it during the car ride. She admitted to me that she looked it over for any hint of cheating. My friend is a Nurse and very very smart and scientifically oriented. She said it was just a board.

They noticed the fragrance of Rose come up strongly at times and then subside. Eventually they realized that when they were praying the fragrance would come and when they stopped it would go away.

If it's a trick, its a good one.  
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...

I don't know what you mean by ex nihilo, but I assume it is transmuted from the icon itself.  Anyway how can people  deny what God wants to give, I mean to me that would  be the height of arrogance and isn't humility a perquisite of holiness?   This doesn't mean of course  to accept everything without question... a little God given discernment would certainly be in order.   Smiley   
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 03:05:59 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.
Thanks orthonorm I appreciater that.

Quote
I don't think it's possible to be Orthodox and not believe in the possibility of such miracles. But the only specific miracles you actually have to believe in are the Incarnation and the Resurrection--God became man and then conquered sin and death, because without those two miracles there no substance to our faith. And once you believe those, it's kind of silly to say that other miracles are not possible or unrealistic. But as far as any specific contemporary miracle goes, the Scriptures and the Fathers both encourage a healthy dose of scepticism--"test the spirits"--because if you believe in such miracles then you also believe in the accounts of demons appearing as angels of light, not to mention the basic proposition that human beings are fallen and they lie.

I believe in the Holy Fire--it seems well-attested over a very long time, and I've never seen anyone propose a realistic explanation for how such a hoax could have been pulled off for such a long time without any substantive evidence that it's not legitimate other than to assume that such a miracle is not possible. The same is true of the more venerable 'weeping icons'. But if they were proved to be hoaxes tomorrow; or if someone was to try to use them to justify teaching unorthodox belief, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) affect my actual Faith in the risen Christ at all
Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »

However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

You got some kinda life story.
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 03:16:16 PM »

However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

You got some kinda life story.
We were to do an interview if I remember correctly Smiley

PP
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 03:26:58 PM »

Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

Sorry if it came across as my implying you didn't believe in miracles. I was trying to state the opposite. I believe in the Holy Fire--but it's not a problem for my faith nor a reason for me to question your faith if you don't, and the same is true of any particular miracle (other than those on which the Faith is based). A sceptical attitude towards accounts of miracles is always consonant with the Patristic witness.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 03:29:50 PM »

Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

Sorry if it came across as my implying you didn't believe in miracles. I was trying to state the opposite. I believe in the Holy Fire--but it's not a problem for my faith nor a reason for me to question your faith if you don't, and the same is true of any particular miracle (other than those on which the Faith is based). A sceptical attitude towards accounts of miracles is always consonant with the Patristic witness.

You are too sensible for this place.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 03:59:43 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...

I don't know what you mean by ex nihilo, but I assume it is transmuted from the icon itself.  Anyway how can people  deny what God wants to give, I mean to me that would  be the height of arrogance and isn't humility a perquisite of holiness?   This doesn't mean of course  to accept everything without question... a little God given discernment would certainly be in order.   Smiley   

"ex nihilo" Latin for 'from nothing' In other words something that, for lack of a better word, simply appears without any apparent source or explanation.

(Since I'm sure there will be a snarky comment anyway, here's one: -  No, it's not like your in-laws dropping in for dinner unexpectedly.)
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 04:13:21 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 04:20:06 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2012, 04:36:16 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2012, 04:48:26 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 05:03:37 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2012, 05:11:32 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2012, 05:15:01 PM »

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The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now

Where/When in DC?
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2012, 05:52:47 PM »

Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

Zenovia makes the suggestion that this miracle has been proven in a lab or something.

Orthonorm responds by asking for evidence of that.

Zenovia has not provided it.

Who is being irresponsible here?

Suggesting, without any evidence, that a miracle has been somehow proven in a lab is more offensive to piety than orthonorm's straightforward request. It represents a capitulation to scientism and empiricism, and a crass exploitation thereof.
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2012, 06:45:51 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 


When people question miracles, did they ever wonder how Christianity spread in Europe and the Near and Middle East after all Bibles didn't exist except in monasteries and/or homes of the nobility... and even if they did people were illiterate.  Not only do miracles exist but black magic does as well, so  we really should judge everything I guess  by the fruit it bears.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 06:48:19 PM »

When people question miracles,

When you claim that miracles have been somehow "scientifically" proven, you are questioning the miracle.
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »

When people question miracles,

No one on this thread is questioning miracles. There has been some skepticism expressed about this or that specific miracle, and *you* have been questioned about your claims that a particular miracle had been scientifically validated--since unlike miracles, scientific validation is not a matter of faith but of empirical evidence that, by definition, should be producible.

(BTW, my one encounter with a 'weeping icon' was one that was in fact later proven to be a hoax--about the same time that the monastery it was kept at was being disbanded because of the abbot's convictions on sexual abuse charges. Hoaxes exist, something our episcopacy fully acknowledges. Criticizing skepticism and uncritically accepting every claim to the miraculous is an abdication of the rational mind given us by God and an open invitation to demons and wolves in sheep's clothing to do their worst.)
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 07:22:28 PM »

Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

Zenovia makes the suggestion that this miracle has been proven in a lab or something.

Orthonorm responds by asking for evidence of that.

Zenovia has not provided it.

Who is being irresponsible here?

Suggesting, without any evidence, that a miracle has been somehow proven in a lab is more offensive to piety than orthonorm's straightforward request. It represents a capitulation to scientism and empiricism, and a crass exploitation thereof.

Oh get off it.  If Orthonorm wants proof all he has to do is go to google and type in: Crying icons, Saint Pauls Cathedral, Hempstead, N.Y.

Anyway there are some discrepancies in the way I remember the events, and the way they are written up here.   If I recall correctly, it was the first icon that was examined not the second, and that the lab said the tears were the same as human tears but without the impurities:

To pacify the doubters, reporters, and non-believers the second Icon was removed from it's frame to see where the tears were emanating. There was no source of tears or moisture on the back of the lithograph. A major New York paper called and asked to have the tears analyzed at a laboratory. The results showed that "the tears were of a oily nature which couldn't be classified among the known elements".


http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping86.htm
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 07:59:29 PM »

When people question miracles,

When you claim that miracles have been somehow "scientifically" proven, you are questioning the miracle.

Actually I'm not questioning the miracle,  I am merely stating a fact when I said the tears of one of the icons was examined.   Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2012, 08:53:10 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2012, 10:14:45 PM »

Quote
The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up
Im only 3 hrs away. I might just do that.

PP

I shall PM you now

Where/When in DC?

Early June.. Plans are a bit fluid at this point. St. John the Baptist Cathedral in DC and probably Holy Apostles Mission in Beltsville.

I will post when I have something exact.
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2012, 10:48:12 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.

No, he doesn't.  But there's three things he excels at: bizarre claims, cynicism and being a smart-ass.  The Energizer battery company tried to find a termination clause for the bunny so they could hire his mouth.  Here in the good 'ol US of A, most of us live under the motto of E Pluribus Unum but the motto on the tickets to Normicon is "Yeah, right."  I pray his neighbors fill his apartment with an all-night vigil consisting of foreign releases of Insane Clown Posse on a constant loop.
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?

It would be a sin for me to bait you further into slander of holy objects. It's just not the kind of thing one should argue over.

You can read the accounts of what I and others have witnessed and dismiss them if you want. It's a free country.

The Hawaiian Iveron Icon will be here in DC early June. Come on up

Amazing your ability to conflate your claims with the objects themselves.

Let's be clear, I am just asking for evidence of your claims of scientific proof.

Thanks for the invitation. But pilgrimages ain't Christian, but that is thread of a different color.

You don't read very carefully.

No, he doesn't.  But there's three things he excels at: bizarre claims, cynicism and being a smart-ass.  The Energizer battery company tried to find a termination clause for the bunny so they could hire his mouth.  Here in the good 'ol US of A, most of us live under the motto of E Pluribus Unum but the motto on the tickets to Normicon is "Yeah, right."  I pray his neighbors fill his apartment with an all-night vigil consisting of foreign releases of Insane Clown Posse on a constant loop.

File under envy. It is becoming grossly obvious. Dial it back.

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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2012, 10:58:02 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2012, 11:02:10 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2012, 11:03:37 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2012, 11:14:18 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2012, 11:18:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2012, 11:22:17 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2012, 11:33:36 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
At the risk of side tracking, I will try that out some time. My older daughters always coming home from school (4th grade) these days needing to come up with some new science experiment. This sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly.
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:56 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2012, 11:38:18 PM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.

God doesn't give His miracles so they can remain hidden.  If these miracles weren't on the web wouldn't we be offending God?   Huh
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2012, 11:38:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.

True all that, still as alluded to, one does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. On the flip side, I suppose it's not as entertaining a read then either.  laugh

Actually, as I have pointed out before, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

Try it out. It's true.

I think I ranted once about the unique quality of Miller High Life in this regard.

But of course your point is taken.
At the risk of side tracking, I will try that out some time. My older daughters always coming home from school (4th grade) these days needing to come up with some new science experiment. This sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly.

I would be interested in their results using honey, various vinegars, and Miller High Life.

The post with my observation on fruit flies and MHL:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39967.msg648566.html#msg648566

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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.

Who or what is RL?  Huh
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« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2012, 12:12:12 AM »

Zenovia, why cite from a website which specializes in Marian apparitions?  That would imply that any Orthodox icon that weeps is associated with Roman Catholicism.

I was  being questioned as to the factually of the miracles, and if there was any scientific proof.  I found the website  quite informative and  believe it answered whatever doubts  someone might have had  as to the reliability of my statements.   If you can come up with a better site, then please do so.  Thanks! : Wink:

I don't think any website is appropriate for cataloging myrrh streaming icons.

God doesn't give His miracles so they can remain hidden.  If these miracles weren't on the web wouldn't we be offending God?   Huh

Only God would know.
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« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2012, 12:13:14 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

They are only for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. And you assume too much.

Pay attention and I may tell you a tale another time.

Since it means talking about RL, I have to be the appropriate mood to speak such things. Fingers to type.

Who or what is RL?  Huh

Sorry, RL = "Real" life.
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« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2012, 12:17:41 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

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« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2012, 12:20:12 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2012, 12:25:22 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Canon 34 doesn't apply in this thread.   Smiley

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

I hope you have a good night's sleep.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2012, 03:03:49 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."



One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,   I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.  The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives. 

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2012, 03:25:27 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2012, 03:26:43 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink

From the amount of time you spend trying to get my attention, you would be the President of the Club.
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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2012, 05:17:35 PM »


File under envy.


Golly, I'm worried you might be suffering from an inflated sense of importance propped up by your legions of fanboys.  Or, in your vernacular: lulz.  Wink

From the amount of time you spend trying to get my attention, you would be the President of the Club.

Srsly?  The second I show up you're eying me like a stoner eyes a box of Girl Scouts Thin Mint cookies.  I never had a puppy that follows me around as much.  But hey, it's cool.  I got it; everybody likes a guy with Cowboy boots. 
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2012, 05:57:24 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.

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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2012, 06:01:57 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,  I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.

The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives.

What kind of prayer life?  That's for existing threads which beat that subject to death.

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?   Huh

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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2012, 07:47:14 PM »

The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

He can appear as such, but the fruit he bears is putrid, rotten.  Discernment is only possible with repentance and prayer.  Two things I know about only ideologically thus far.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2012, 08:17:53 PM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

Some of us can't read though and open to be personally insulted.

And there is a precedent for scientific claims being called into serious question around here for better or worse.

And really it undermines the truly miraculous, which I will maintain take place more often and more movingly than in icons weeping, fire happening at Pascha, by reducing such irreducible acts of grace to the level of scientific analysis.


I made a vow not to respond to you, but I'm breaking it now.  Tell me what truly miraculous are you talking about, unless you mean the miracle of our very existence.  Also how  can anyone tell God what He should do or shouldn't do?  , If God wants to do the  inexplicable so as to draw people closer to Him, then who are we to question it?  I should think we would have no more right to do so then we have to question God on  the thousands of miracles that Jesus performed in his lifetime.  I would  add  to that the thousands of miracles performed by His apostles and the saints that came after them as well, except that those miracles  are being doubted by those who have reason to do so.  Roll Eyes   

How can anyone be sure that "miracles" truly come from God?  There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.  Young children can say that they saw the Virgin Mary who prophecized the destruction of the world.  It's the actions, not the words, not the so-called "miracles."

One can only judge something by the fruit it bears.  If a person turns more fervently towards God because of a miracle and if they repent of their sins and become more humble,  I would say then the fruit is good so it has to be from God.

]The Devil also appears as an angel of light.

The best way though to acquire discernment is to have a strong prayer life.  It is one of the gifts that God gives.

What kind of prayer life?  That's for existing threads which beat that subject to death.

Lately  I have read a lot of saying by elders  as well as prophecies.  Some of these elders are truly future saints, but others aren't and yet they are considered saints by some people.  The best way I found to discern is by what they say.  If what they are saying is edifying and  beneficial to ones soul then they are truly saints.  If on the other hand they are arousing fear whether it be towards Jews, the Pope, etc., then they are playing up to peoples basest passions and  turning them away from God.   Smiley   

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?   Huh



The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2012, 10:44:45 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2012, 09:05:26 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

It may have been someone else who said "there is proof for this one" but it wasnt me.

Someone asked what the Myrrh is made of. I replied that a vile was tested in a lab and here what the guy said it was made of.

Then Norm in his usual sneering tone said that it wasn't "Peer Reviewed" which is a really dumb pot shot.

Very simple. A vile was analyzed. Here is want the guy found it was made from... Period.

If that infuriates Norm or others then I would suggest looking into some sort of stress reduction therapy.

If you spend enough time with one of these Icons as I have, you will quickly dismiss claims that it's a trick or fraud.
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2012, 09:22:42 AM »

Good grief, have read this thread twice now and really don't see anyone questioning miracles in general or any miracle in specific. What I do see is someone saying in essence "oh there's proof for this one? Cool I'd like to read that." only in a much more vinegar and much less honey kinda way. That's what I see anyway for what it's worth which probably ain't much.

It may have been someone else who said "there is proof for this one" but it wasnt me.

Someone asked what the Myrrh is made of. I replied that a vile was tested in a lab and here what the guy said it was made of.

Then Norm in his usual sneering tone said that it wasn't "Peer Reviewed" which is a really dumb pot shot.

Very simple. A vile was analyzed. Here is want the guy found it was made from... Period.

If that infuriates Norm or others then I would suggest looking into some sort of stress reduction therapy.

If you spend enough time with one of these Icons as I have, you will quickly dismiss claims that it's a trick or fraud.

"vial"

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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2012, 09:47:53 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...
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« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2012, 12:24:43 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?

What do you mean about secret knowledge?  Explain yourself sir?  Huh
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« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2012, 01:21:08 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...

It seems reasonable that our sins would make them weep, as for someone in the church....  I doubt it, although there are churches  where  the Holy Spirit can be sensed, and other churches that are simply lacking.  I personally think it has to do with the congregation as a whole, and the extent of their faith as well as with the priest.   
 
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith.  To quote from Saint Nektarios:

CHRISTIANITY

Christian religion is not a certain philosophic system, about which learned men, trained in metaphysical studies argue and then either espouse or reject, according to the opinion each one has formed. It is faith, established in the souls of men, which ought to be spread to the many and be maintained in their consciousnesses.

There are truths in Christianity that are above out intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.


http://www.serfes.org/writtings/stnectarios.htm
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« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2012, 02:32:18 PM »

The devil does appear as an angel of light and I'm sure many fall for it.  Mohamed did.  One thing is for certain, the devil is not going to help you grow in Grace.   
As for my comments about elders, it's  an example of what I meant  about  having discernment.  Smiley

Discernment or secret knowledge?

What do you mean about secret knowledge?  Explain yourself sir?  Huh

Knowledge which is gained through noetic prayers; however, this tangent is deviating far away from weeping/crying icons.

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« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2012, 03:43:29 PM »

Quote
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith
I dont think its absurd, but to me, I am naturally critical of things like this. I'd rather deny an angel then accept a demon.

PP
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« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2012, 04:16:39 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.

This!
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« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2012, 04:19:34 PM »

If he had evidence, it would not be a miracle.

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?
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« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2012, 04:25:40 PM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons. 

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.
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« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2012, 06:29:58 PM »

Quote
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith
I dont think its absurd, but to me, I am naturally critical of things like this. I'd rather deny an angel then accept a demon.

PP

But demons are fallen angels and a definite part of Christianity. To me I find it easier to explain the actions of people such as Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler  to demonic possession, than to believe that all their power came from their own faculties.  When Saint Nektarios was exorcising someone he was amazed at how powerful the demon was. The demon told him that there were three of them in the world.  One was in control of Russia, and the other in China.  The year was 1917 when Lenin took over, and in China it was probably about the time that Mao Tse Tung became communist.

As for the one exorcised by Saint Nektarios, my guess is he left Greece and went into  Kemal Attaturk.   Who knows? Huh
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« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2012, 06:54:05 PM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.

I just found out what is Rule 34.   Embarrassed  Some things on this forum are beyond my ability to use context clues to determine a definition.   Undecided
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:59:47 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2012, 09:33:01 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

Probably because of something you did.



That's what my mother thinks. Our sin makes them weep and/or someone at that church is...

It seems reasonable that our sins would make them weep, as for someone in the church....  I doubt it, although there are churches  where  the Holy Spirit can be sensed, and other churches that are simply lacking.  I personally think it has to do with the congregation as a whole, and the extent of their faith as well as with the priest.    
 
As for experiences with miracles and such,  I think it depends on our faith.  What might seem utterly impossible and absurd to those of little faith, becomes commonplace and natural to those of a strong faith.  To quote from Saint Nektarios:

CHRISTIANITY

Christian religion is not a certain philosophic system, about which learned men, trained in metaphysical studies argue and then either espouse or reject, according to the opinion each one has formed. It is faith, established in the souls of men, which ought to be spread to the many and be maintained in their consciousnesses.

There are truths in Christianity that are above out intellectual comprehension, incapable of being grasped by the finite mind of man. Our intellect takes cognizance of them, becomes convinced of their reality, and testifies about their supernatural existence.


http://www.serfes.org/writtings/stnectarios.htm

In Rocor Myrrh Streaming is not seen as "Weeping" or a something sad or disapproving. Quite the opposite. In the case of Icons of the Theotokos for example, it is considered a sign of her presence and a great blessing.

Here is a link to a web site that details the history of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon: http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.htm


« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 09:44:41 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2012, 10:04:31 AM »

There are instructions on the Internet on how to create myrrh streaming icons.

Sheesh. Rule 34 or whatever, I guess.

Thanks for the downer as I head off to slumber (I hope).

You do NOT want to apply Rule 34 to myrrh streaming icons. I am going to Hell thanks to you for the image that went through my mind when I read that.

I just found out what is Rule 34.   Embarrassed  Some things on this forum are beyond my ability to use context clues to determine a definition.   Undecided

Don't worry too much about it.  It is far more a shame for me that I know Rule 34 than it is for you that you did not.
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« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »

I don't think bringing in issues of "Scientific Proof" with the streaming icons is right.  For one, consider, if you had one would you like to hand it over to a Scientist to perform analysis on?

It really does not good anyway, because even if a link on the internet is provided as proof, containing a photo, testimony, or even slight analysis on the icon, it would never satisfy.

All I can suggest is anybody who doubts, to go see one for yourself.  Try to find one at a monastery.

I had the HONOR of holding one in my hands, and I fully believe it was streaming.  Before that I was really iffy if it was happening and thought it could have all been a hoax.   I am 100% positive it was streaming.   The wood on the back was aged and old (probably from years of having incense near it).  The paint was not tampered with.  All I have is my testimony, and can tell anybody, "if you don't believe it, go see it".
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« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

I don't think bringing in issues of "Scientific Proof" with the streaming icons is right.  For one, consider, if you had one would you like to hand it over to a Scientist to perform analysis on?

It really does not good anyway, because even if a link on the internet is provided as proof, containing a photo, testimony, or even slight analysis on the icon, it would never satisfy.

All I can suggest is anybody who doubts, to go see one for yourself.  Try to find one at a monastery.

I had the HONOR of holding one in my hands, and I fully believe it was streaming.  Before that I was really iffy if it was happening and thought it could have all been a hoax.   I am 100% positive it was streaming.   The wood on the back was aged and old (probably from years of having incense near it).  The paint was not tampered with.  All I have is my testimony, and can tell anybody, "if you don't believe it, go see it".

I, too, have had the privilege of being in the presence of a myrrh-streaming icon, and while it was actively exuding the fragrant oil. But it is also necessary to exclude non-miraculous origins of such phenomena. History, particularly recent history, has many examples of holy objects showing behavior which can be explained by natural causes, or, far worse, doctored by people to give the appearance of miraculous manifestation. From the Orthodox POV, it is spiritually dangerous and improper to venerate something which has been manipulated to fool the faithful.
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« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2012, 11:49:40 AM »

Quote
But demons are fallen angels and a definite part of Christianity. To me I find it easier to explain the actions of people such as Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler  to demonic possession, than to believe that all their power came from their own faculties.
I think you missed my meaning......


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« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 11:51:05 AM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2012, 01:50:01 PM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.

My opinion is that they cry because the saint depicted in them cries for us, because of us, or that they might prophecise a trauma.. I think icons drop myrrh to show us the blessing of the saint depicted in them..
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