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Author Topic: Why do Icons cry/weep?  (Read 4642 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ergib
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« on: May 07, 2012, 09:39:19 AM »

...Just want to hear your thoughts on this.
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 09:53:52 AM »


To get our attention.
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 10:54:53 AM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 11:12:59 AM »

I used to think that they wept.  However, someone once brought me "myrrh" from a weeping Icon, and it smelled nothing like Myrrh.  Then I had a chance to smell the "myrrh" from another one.  Again, it smelled like something that had been whipped up, not like Myrrh from a real bush.  This has caused me some doubt.  Perhaps Icon Myrrh is different than the real stuff?
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 02:41:28 PM »

They get touchy-feely or lonely.
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 03:00:52 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 03:31:17 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 03:34:51 PM »

I never seen one cry.  Ive always been skeptical of this sort of thing if Im honest.  As a protestant, I was always skeptical of some of the stuff I heard from the 'charismatic' crowd.  Some of that skepticism has transferred over to some of the "mystical" or "mysterious" things ive heard in Orthodoxy, including this.  I tend to believe Orthodoxy bc I know the faith as a whole is true.  But Im still skeptical.

Enough ranting.  To answer the question, I have no idea.  Liza's answer sounds about right.

I've been blessed to see two myrrh-streaming icons thus far in my life. To see and experience the presence of one of these myrrh-streaming icons is very different from anything you'll encounter in charismatic protestantism, which tends to sensationalize its experiences. A myrrh-streaming icon is treated with much respect and dignity, but it is an icon. it is set on a stand like any other icon, venerated like any other icon, etc. People may bless things, such as prayer ropes, copies of the icon, etc. upon it, but I've never seen any kind of emotional, sensational response to such things.

I think this is because the Orthodox worldview accepts and even expects miracles to happen. Of course God is here with us, why should these kinds of things not happen? They should not shock us and we should not be given over to excitement or whatnot when coming into contact with these things. Rather, we accept them as part of our Orthodox spirituality and afford such things the proper veneration due to them, and continue on with our lives.

I understand.  I would really like to see something like this for myself.  When I asked my charismatic friends why I never saw any of the things they spoke of, it was always because "I didnt believe enough." 
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 03:39:03 PM »

I have been blessed with seeing the Hawaiian Iveron Icon many times and have spent some time with Reader Nectari the icon's caretaker.

The fact is that the Orthodox are very circumspect about Wonder Working Icons. They don't push them on unbeleivers and in my experience there is more to them then most people even know about.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

Can I take option d) all of the above?
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 04:30:46 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I think the use of the word "myrrh" here is very broad, and means more like "fragrant oil", referencing how myrrh resin was often used in perfumes, especially burial spices.
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:46 PM »

My issue is with the myrrh.  Is Icon myrrh different than natural myrrh?  I burn myrrh as incense, and it is a sap from a tree like Frankincense.  Its smell is FAR different from what I have smelled coming from Icons.  Should this be so?  As to the miracle aspect, I have no difficulty with this in the least.

I think the use of the word "myrrh" here is very broad, and means more like "fragrant oil", referencing how myrrh resin was often used in perfumes, especially burial spices.

Thank you.  That helps.
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 09:10:49 PM »

I used to think that they wept.  However, someone once brought me "myrrh" from a weeping Icon, and it smelled nothing like Myrrh.  Then I had a chance to smell the "myrrh" from another one.  Again, it smelled like something that had been whipped up, not like Myrrh from a real bush.  This has caused me some doubt.  Perhaps Icon Myrrh is different than the real stuff?

I have some myrrh that came from an icon.  It has the most beautiful myrrh scent with some rose undertones.  Being my ever inquisitive self, I decided to conduct an experiment.  I placed some fresh cotton next to the oil soaked myrrh scented one and  voila.  The fresh cotton not only became oily itself, but fully absorbed the scent as well.   Even more  curious is that the small wooden box containing it did not absorb the scent. 

Anyway I don't know why  icons weep.  I think there was one in a Serbian Church weeping before the Kosovan war, but I am not sure.   I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara. 

There were other phenomenon as well, such as three doves flying over the procession carrying the first icon to the Church and also circling above it while the Liturgy was in session.  It was soon written up in a major newspaper and thousands began to line up outside the Church.  Inside,  Catholic nuns were  grouped reciting the Rosary.   angel
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 11:18:44 PM »

This is a VERY touchy subject for me.

First (and the worst), there is an icon that I have witnessed weeping, that was in the old Blanco monastery in Texas.  The priest admitted faking it, and I believe he was also involved in some type of sexual criminal investigation.   It was a HORRIBLE tragedy.  Also a horrible lie to do this.  I don't know why he did it.

Now, I have been blessed in my life to have witnessed REAL weeping icons.   Even ones that I got to hold in my hand that were not well known.   They were at the time, scary, holy, mystifying, and beautiful.   These were at monasteries as well, and one at a priest's home.  I was holding and Icon of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, where the hands and feet were secreting an oil.   The priest wiped up the oil with cotton (for anointing).  This icon WAS IN MY HANDS.  I felt the wood on the back of it.  Solid.  No funny business, without doubt, drops seemed to "appear" not secrete, but slowly "grow" again out of the hands and feet.   I will never forget this experience in my entire life.   It is real that some icons do weep/secrete, or are mystically anointed somehow.  

One other experience that I had was with a bronze cross (typical large priests cross).   The priest discovered one Saturday evening that his main church cross (for veneration at the end of liturgy) was covered in a very strong scented oil.   Well, he did not know how it got that way, and brought it to a sink and scrubbed it off with a sponge.   He also used soap.  At the time I was an altar boy, and I witnessed the priest scrubbing/washing the cross.    He patted it dry, and we walked back into the church with the cross in his hand.  It began GUSHING the sweet smelling oil out again, and completely was everywhere on his hand, sleeve, etc.  I was sent to the local corner store to buy cotton balls!

The other icons were from very kind individuals that I would consider extremely credible, with nothing to gain.  The most famous that I've seen was in Chicago, and the icon of the Theotokos weeped tears of oil.  This was back in the 1980's.  I had no chance to examine it at all.  There are numerous accounts of icons on Mt. Athos weeping.

Now, to answer your question.

I've seen several and I can't fully answer your question, but I can tell you what others say.

Some say the weeping icons are because they "cry for the world".
Others say its to prove there is something to unbelievers.
Some say its to call back protestant Christians to Orthodoxy.
Some say its a flat miracle, end of story.

My personal opinion is that they are a miracle, and that they will mean something different and special to each person.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 11:47:48 AM »

Those that I know don't use the term "Weeping Icon" so much but rather "Myrrh Streaming Icon"

As to what the Myrrh is made of I have told this story before. I hope I still have the details right

Reader Nectari caretaker of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon  once gave a full vile of the Myrrh to a Man who approached him at a Church the icon was visiting. Reader Nectari mentioned that he had an uneasy feeling about the man but gave him the vile of myrrh in any event..

It turned out that he was a chemist and brought the vile of myrrh to his lab and had it analyzed. In the first place it was a combination of water and oils but held together in a way that is impossible for Oil and Water together ( sorry, I have no education in chemistry at all so I cant explain further).
 
Part of the oil came from plants that only grow around Jerusalem and other oils from Egypt. And not even from parts of the plants/trees where oil is commonly extracted but from roots and stems. And then another oil that was impossible to analyze that the lab had never encountered before.

I will look for my old post. My memory is fading a bit on the details. But the upshot is that the man who had it analyzed came to Reader Nectari at a later date and was very agitated and kept asking in a loud voice "What is this? What is this?"

I have witnessed the strong smell of Rose come up from the Icon as prayer intensifies and  then subsides. Once I was standing only a few feet from Reader Nectari and looked him right in the eye when the fragrance came up very strongly. He just gave me a look and a shrug as if to say 'Told you so'

I have seen a gray misty cloud form over the icon before it starts streaming. I have, along with others, stood over the Icon long enough to clearly see droplets form and then run down. Often the glass inside the casing gets covered with oil and we needed to wipe in down so people can see the image.

This icon is very good when it comes to people with some doubt or skepticism who need to see for themselves.

Rocor is very careful before they declare an Icon Wonderworking. They took this Icon from Reader Nectari for many months when it first began to stream and brought it to the Cathedral in SF. They took their time before they returned it and asked him to be it's caretaker. They do not take such things lightly.
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 02:53:11 PM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.

I guess we are both wrong, the year was 1960.  Checking up on it, I found that an icon of Saint Nicholas was gushing myrhh in the same church a few years ago.  What made the miracles of 1960  so important though, was that the country was very Protestant at the time  and these things were unheard of.  This is why it attracted so many Catholics.  Hundreds of thousands all over the New York City area were lined up to see the icons.   

Vatican II might have come about because of these miracles and  the pressure the Catholics placed on the Pope to unite the Churches, but I'm only assuming this because of the sequence of events.  Arch Iakovos had only been in office six  months when this occurred and  ten years ago I came across a letter on the internet addressed to him from the World Council of Churches.  He was told he could not be a member if he responded to the Pope's invitation for dialogue.   I looked for it on the Archdiocesan site later on, but couldn't find it so don't take everything I'm writing as being one hundred percent factual,  I could be mistaken.  Huh
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 03:14:04 PM »

Those that I know don't use the term "Weeping Icon" so much but rather "Myrrh Streaming Icon"

As to what the Myrrh is made of I have told this story before. I hope I still have the details right

Reader Nectari caretaker of the Hawaiian Iveron Icon  once gave a full vile of the Myrrh to a Man who approached him at a Church the icon was visiting. Reader Nectari mentioned that he had an uneasy feeling about the man but gave him the vile of myrrh in any event..

It turned out that he was a chemist and brought the vile of myrrh to his lab and had it analyzed. In the first place it was a combination of water and oils but held together in a way that is impossible for Oil and Water together ( sorry, I have no education in chemistry at all so I cant explain further).
 
Part of the oil came from plants that only grow around Jerusalem and other oils from Egypt. And not even from parts of the plants/trees where oil is commonly extracted but from roots and stems. And then another oil that was impossible to analyze that the lab had never encountered before.

I will look for my old post. My memory is fading a bit on the details. But the upshot is that the man who had it analyzed came to Reader Nectari at a later date and was very agitated and kept asking in a loud voice "What is this? What is this?"

I have witnessed the strong smell of Rose come up from the Icon as prayer intensifies and  then subsides. Once I was standing only a few feet from Reader Nectari and looked him right in the eye when the fragrance came up very strongly. He just gave me a look and a shrug as if to say 'Told you so'

I have seen a gray misty cloud form over the icon before it starts streaming. I have, along with others, stood over the Icon long enough to clearly see droplets form and then run down. Often the glass inside the casing gets covered with oil and we needed to wipe in down so people can see the image.

This icon is very good when it comes to people with some doubt or skepticism who need to see for themselves.

Rocor is very careful before they declare an Icon Wonderworking. They took this Icon from Reader Nectari for many months when it first began to stream and brought it to the Cathedral in SF. They took their time before they returned it and asked him to be it's caretaker. They do not take such things lightly.

Actually the icons in Hempstead in 1960 were weeping real tears.  Since miracles and crying icons was an anomaly in that day and age and especially in a Protestant country, the tears were thoroughly examined and found to have the same composition as real tears but without the impurities one would find in human tears.  angel

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 03:58:41 PM »

Thanks All!

I will be heading to New York soon and hoping to visiting/seeing the weeping Icons of the Virgin Mary and St Nicholas there.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 04:53:57 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.

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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 08:49:04 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 08:54:12 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.

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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 10:16:57 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.



Shame on you
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 10:21:07 PM »

To be fair, it was Zenovia who first raised the banner of scientism with her "thoroughly examined" claim. In light of that orthonorm's request is reasonable.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 12:46:25 AM »

I know in 1959  an icon began weeping in Long  Island.  When a Catholic neighbor found out,  it became news all over N.Y.C.  The icon was taken by Arch. Iakovos to the Cathedral in Hempstead, and it wasn't long afterwards that the replacement  given  to the owner began to weep as well.   In the end this very devout woman had three weeping icons of our Theotokos, and one of Saint Barbara.  2

i have similar memories Zenovia, except I was thinking it was around 1962. pictures of the weeping icon was in the san francisco chronicle for a couple of days. not something one would fail to remember.

I guess we are both wrong, the year was 1960.  Checking up on it, I found that an icon of Saint Nicholas was gushing myrhh in the same church a few years ago.  What made the miracles of 1960  so important though, was that the country was very Protestant at the time  and these things were unheard of.  This is why it attracted so many Catholics.  Hundreds of thousands all over the New York City area were lined up to see the icons.   

Vatican II might have come about because of these miracles and  the pressure the Catholics placed on the Pope to unite the Churches, but I'm only assuming this because of the sequence of events.  Arch Iakovos had only been in office six  months when this occurred and  ten years ago I came across a letter on the internet addressed to him from the World Council of Churches.  He was told he could not be a member if he responded to the Pope's invitation for dialogue.   I looked for it on the Archdiocesan site later on, but couldn't find it so don't take everything I'm writing as being one hundred percent factual,  I could be mistaken.  Huh

Thanks Zenovia, I think it should be now a simple matter to search the NY Times archive, if there is anything worthwhile I will type out the photographed clipping. I now have access to my left hand fingers.

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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 01:01:01 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.

I don't doubt it. It just when people start using "science" to back up their claims without the degree of proof this board demands when making such claims is what I find to be problematic.

All forms of discourse have their truth and method of inquiry: legend, myth, anecdote, science, etc.

Your witness I do not not doubt. The claims suggesting chemical analysis being performed which defied the laws of science as we know them but for some reason never published, I must necessarily ask for the appropriate evidence.

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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 01:41:00 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 01:41:28 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 


 
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 01:45:54 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 01:47:10 PM »

I think that icons weep because they read a thread or two here on OC.net.

In laughter over the Herman thread.
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 02:14:29 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I don't think it's possible to be Orthodox and not believe in the possibility of such miracles. But the only specific miracles you actually have to believe in are the Incarnation and the Resurrection--God became man and then conquered sin and death, because without those two miracles there no substance to our faith. And once you believe those, it's kind of silly to say that other miracles are not possible or unrealistic. But as far as any specific contemporary miracle goes, the Scriptures and the Fathers both encourage a healthy dose of scepticism--"test the spirits"--because if you believe in such miracles then you also believe in the accounts of demons appearing as angels of light, not to mention the basic proposition that human beings are fallen and they lie.

I believe in the Holy Fire--it seems well-attested over a very long time, and I've never seen anyone propose a realistic explanation for how such a hoax could have been pulled off for such a long time without any substantive evidence that it's not legitimate other than to assume that such a miracle is not possible. The same is true of the more venerable 'weeping icons'. But if they were proved to be hoaxes tomorrow; or if someone was to try to use them to justify teaching unorthodox belief, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) affect my actual Faith in the risen Christ at all.
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »

lulz at chemical analysis.

Peer-reviewed journal or GTFreakO.



Like I said before:

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now we know why they are weeping, it is because this caliber of defense they receive.



Shame on you

I don't think people of his caliber are worth responding to.  Best to ignore them.   Wink
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:21:55 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »

Condensation.

Hoax.

Really odd "miracle".

You decide.

Since I have personal experience, and actually held them in my hands, and was probably the most awesome experience of my life (also scary, holy, thrilling, and peaceful experience) I have absolutely no doubt that its a miracle.

Far beyond a cheeto or grilled cheese shaped like the Theotokos....   The icon I held was a solid board...  In my weakness and lack of faith, I actually examined it for holes, pumps, tampering.... There is no way.  Old aged wood, old aged paint.  No way around it IMHO, it streamed oil.

There is a Woman in my Parish that did the same. A Myrrh Streaming Icon was taken around by car to the homes of the sick and elderly. She was tasked with holding it during the car ride. She admitted to me that she looked it over for any hint of cheating. My friend is a Nurse and very very smart and scientifically oriented. She said it was just a board.

They noticed the fragrance of Rose come up strongly at times and then subside. Eventually they realized that when they were praying the fragrance would come and when they stopped it would go away.

If it's a trick, its a good one.  
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...

I don't know what you mean by ex nihilo, but I assume it is transmuted from the icon itself.  Anyway how can people  deny what God wants to give, I mean to me that would  be the height of arrogance and isn't humility a perquisite of holiness?   This doesn't mean of course  to accept everything without question... a little God given discernment would certainly be in order.   Smiley   
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 03:05:59 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.
Thanks orthonorm I appreciater that.

Quote
I don't think it's possible to be Orthodox and not believe in the possibility of such miracles. But the only specific miracles you actually have to believe in are the Incarnation and the Resurrection--God became man and then conquered sin and death, because without those two miracles there no substance to our faith. And once you believe those, it's kind of silly to say that other miracles are not possible or unrealistic. But as far as any specific contemporary miracle goes, the Scriptures and the Fathers both encourage a healthy dose of scepticism--"test the spirits"--because if you believe in such miracles then you also believe in the accounts of demons appearing as angels of light, not to mention the basic proposition that human beings are fallen and they lie.

I believe in the Holy Fire--it seems well-attested over a very long time, and I've never seen anyone propose a realistic explanation for how such a hoax could have been pulled off for such a long time without any substantive evidence that it's not legitimate other than to assume that such a miracle is not possible. The same is true of the more venerable 'weeping icons'. But if they were proved to be hoaxes tomorrow; or if someone was to try to use them to justify teaching unorthodox belief, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) affect my actual Faith in the risen Christ at all
Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »

However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

You got some kinda life story.
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 03:16:16 PM »

However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

You got some kinda life story.
We were to do an interview if I remember correctly Smiley

PP
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 03:26:58 PM »

Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

Sorry if it came across as my implying you didn't believe in miracles. I was trying to state the opposite. I believe in the Holy Fire--but it's not a problem for my faith nor a reason for me to question your faith if you don't, and the same is true of any particular miracle (other than those on which the Faith is based). A sceptical attitude towards accounts of miracles is always consonant with the Patristic witness.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 03:29:50 PM »

Im not saying that I dont believe in miracles, on the contrary, I simply am too nervous to immidately ascribe "miracle" to something only to later find it to be a fraud, thereby demeaning true miracles. Miracles do happen; of that I am sure. However, being raised by a magician, I know how easy it is to fool lots of folks.

PP

Sorry if it came across as my implying you didn't believe in miracles. I was trying to state the opposite. I believe in the Holy Fire--but it's not a problem for my faith nor a reason for me to question your faith if you don't, and the same is true of any particular miracle (other than those on which the Faith is based). A sceptical attitude towards accounts of miracles is always consonant with the Patristic witness.

You are too sensible for this place.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 03:59:43 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

I think the same thing.

I can help but wonder, however... if the icons weep myrrh... does the myrrh appear ex nihilo or is it transmuted from the icon itself...

I don't know what you mean by ex nihilo, but I assume it is transmuted from the icon itself.  Anyway how can people  deny what God wants to give, I mean to me that would  be the height of arrogance and isn't humility a perquisite of holiness?   This doesn't mean of course  to accept everything without question... a little God given discernment would certainly be in order.   Smiley   

"ex nihilo" Latin for 'from nothing' In other words something that, for lack of a better word, simply appears without any apparent source or explanation.

(Since I'm sure there will be a snarky comment anyway, here's one: -  No, it's not like your in-laws dropping in for dinner unexpectedly.)
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 04:13:21 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 

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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 04:20:06 PM »

So, should I feel bad for being critical of these miracles? I was reading about the Holy Fire of Jerusalem and could not help but think it is faked...like by phosphorus or something....After thinking that, I did feel kind of bad for being so critical (of course I still am).

PP

No. Believing in these possible miracles has ZERO to do with being a Christian.

Heck, according to Marc's gross misunderstanding of the Scripture he quotes (Christ did perform signs to reveal Himself for who He publicly and it is did change the hearts and mind of many, some for the better and some for the worse) "miracles" are pointless.

Sermon on the Mount and all that.

I've seen miracles which would melt the hearts of the most jaded, I being one of them proves that. But they are sort which happen in plain sight. They are the ones which I guarantee have changed the hearts of more than any icon streaming tears, myrrh, or what have you. Or legends of superhuman Saints.

 

 

Wonder Working Icons are indeed a part of Orthodox Christian Tradition. Also "legends" of Saints defying our physical laws such as being two places at once or emitting light or being able to heal are part of the Orthodox Tradition.  Being skeptical is natural until one is convinced. Being aggressively skeptical or to sneer or take a mocking tone does goes against the grain of Orthodox Christian Piety IMHO. I could be wrong. 



I think making unfounded scientific claims is not good oc.net behavior. I am not sure how the stands within the Orthodox tradition.

My stance or tone vis-a-vis your unfounded claims ain't to be confused with piety, actually, I ain't one for piety as such anyhow. Piety has a particular connotation in English. Reverence is a better for what you are looking for.

Have you provided evidence of your claims yet?
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