Topic: Baptism!!! need help!

[Seafra]

sooo, I am being received into the Coptic Church June 3rd, I am looking for resources and what not to prepare myself. What all do i need before hand what should i expect during the ceremony, pretty much everything lol i kinda realized i studied the faith so much i never really looked much at the actual conversion process :-p

[Benjamin the Red]

I know nothing about the Coptic baptismal service, but many years!

[Shiny]

Did you move out of Pennsylvania? And congrats! I'm sure our fellow OO's will chime in shortly.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Are you being received into the British Orthodox Church?

[mabsoota]

just moved house again,so v minimal internet; will have to be brief!
1st, congratulations! (alf mabrook, if u prefer the arabic)
 
2nd, it is really straightforward. usually u wear white (in the old days it was done naked, bring white underwear just in case) and get into the font when told to.
exact practice varies, but often u have water poured on yr head twice, then go under the water when the priest gets to 'and the Holy Spirit'
the chrismation is done after the baptism with special chrism oil (zayt mayroun in the arabic version of the original greek).
u have to reject the devil and all his works etc. while facing west, and then declare yr faith while facing east.
u will have clear instructions (may be in english or in arabic accompanied by sign language depending on the church)
 
so don't worry about doing it wrong. it does not take long, but is really beautiful and profound.
after, u get into dry clothes (white) and the priest ties a red ribbon around u, which u keep on till the end of the service.
concentrate on the liturgy, especially on the parts where u repent of yr sins, coz yr going to take Holy Communion, which is awesome.
there is a prayer in the 'agpeya' for before and after taking communion, this helps. just pray it anytime after the commemoration of the saints.
when the guys get into line for communion, follow them. aim for around the middle of the line so u don't get lost. remember to take off yr shoes first! don't forget to pick up one of those handkerchiefs (there's a proper liturgical english word, but i can't remember it; it's 'lefafa' in  arabic) and when u receive the Holy Body, put it over yr mouth so u don't drop crumbs. then leave it in it's place, u don't need it for the Holy Blood.
if there are 2 or more priests, u will receive the Holy Blood straight after, if only one priest, hang around and look out for the line that will form again after the whole church has received the Holy Body (most churches still follow the old tradition of men and women receiving separately so as not to be distracted in line by the opposite gender).
after the blessing at the end of the service (and usually after everyone has started to leave), dont go away!
u have to process around the church 3 times with the (sub)deacons singing and playing the cymbals and the ladies (usually) ululating. then u go to the front and the priest unties the red ribbon and takes it off u, symbolising yr cleaness. there are more prayers over u, and often more ululation!

if it's all a bit profound and u want to avoid being kissed by dozens of uncles and asked yr life story by dozens of aunts, it is ok at this stage to stay in the church for a short while praying and enjoying yr new life.
if yr up for the socialising, head out for tea and biscuits and everyone congratulating u.

yes, this was the brief version...
 

[Seafra]

Did you move out of Pennsylvania? And congrats! I'm sure our fellow OO's will chime in shortly.

Yeah got transferred a few weeks ago so i am working again!

Are you being received into the British Orthodox Church?

kinda, The BOC is part of the Coptic Church...

just moved house again,so v minimal internet; will have to be brief!
1st, congratulations! (alf mabrook, if u prefer the arabic)
 
2nd, it is really straightforward. usually u wear white (in the old days it was done naked, bring white underwear just in case) and get into the font when told to.
exact practice varies, but often u have water poured on yr head twice, then go under the water when the priest gets to 'and the Holy Spirit'
the chrismation is done after the baptism with special chrism oil (zayt mayroun in the arabic version of the original greek).
u have to reject the devil and all his works etc. while facing west, and then declare yr faith while facing east.
u will have clear instructions (may be in english or in arabic accompanied by sign language depending on the church)
 
so don't worry about doing it wrong. it does not take long, but is really beautiful and profound.
after, u get into dry clothes (white) and the priest ties a red ribbon around u, which u keep on till the end of the service.
concentrate on the liturgy, especially on the parts where u repent of yr sins, coz yr going to take Holy Communion, which is awesome.
there is a prayer in the 'agpeya' for before and after taking communion, this helps. just pray it anytime after the commemoration of the saints.
when the guys get into line for communion, follow them. aim for around the middle of the line so u don't get lost. remember to take off yr shoes first! don't forget to pick up one of those handkerchiefs (there's a proper liturgical english word, but i can't remember it; it's 'lefafa' in  arabic) and when u receive the Holy Body, put it over yr mouth so u don't drop crumbs. then leave it in it's place, u don't need it for the Holy Blood.
if there are 2 or more priests, u will receive the Holy Blood straight after, if only one priest, hang around and look out for the line that will form again after the whole church has received the Holy Body (most churches still follow the old tradition of men and women receiving separately so as not to be distracted in line by the opposite gender).
after the blessing at the end of the service (and usually after everyone has started to leave), dont go away!
u have to process around the church 3 times with the (sub)deacons singing and playing the cymbals and the ladies (usually) ululating. then u go to the front and the priest unties the red ribbon and takes it off u, symbolising yr cleaness. there are more prayers over u, and often more ululation!

if it's all a bit profound and u want to avoid being kissed by dozens of uncles and asked yr life story by dozens of aunts, it is ok at this stage to stay in the church for a short while praying and enjoying yr new life.
if yr up for the socialising, head out for tea and biscuits and everyone congratulating u.

yes, this was the brief version...
 

Thank you! i was attending a Greek church and communion was so simple, when i saw the copticit was very, confusing lol though most of it is concealed by the altar wall... so it may be just as simple but i just cant see any of it lol. The robe (tonya i think) will be provided oor do i need to buy and bring them, and the white clothes. Also a baptismal cross?

[Jonathan]

You can ask your priest, but normally the white robe (tunic/tonia) is supplied. It is the same as a deacon's tonia, since the whole point of the deacon & priest's tonia is to be wearing their baptismal robe for the Liturgy (though it became embellished, with crosse that technically should only be on the priest's, but no one pays attention to that any more). There are no godparents or baptismal crosses in the Coptic tradition. Some people bring a cross with them and ask the priest to dip it in the font... my priest refuses saying that anything that goes in the font belongs to the church, and they would have to leave it... but he sprinkles it for them and they're usually happy with that. It isn't part of the tradition though.

The English for lafafa is (debatably) a corporal.

The red ribbon is also a questionable part of the tradition, so some priests may or may not do it... don't worry either way.

[mabsoota]

thanks for a more official answer.
yes, although we don't have official God parents, u can get yrself unofficial ones
 
mine are the people that taught me so much about the church and then said 'just call us mum and dad' 
after a while my God parents' daughter notice my absence of cross wearing (was taking it slow so as not to shock the protestant rels) and bought me one. i loved her too much to turn it down (so that was my excuse with the friends and rels) and now i wear it day and night
 

[dzheremi]

I found this fifteen minute video of a Coptic baptism of an adult woman...obviously not the whole ceremony, but the longest video I could find of an adult baptism, and it gives you a good idea of what to expect.

Congratulations, by the way. I will be received on May 27, so I'm right there with you, Seafra!

[Father Peter]

Hi Mabsoota,

Have you been taught that we don't have baptismal sponsors? Which diocese teaches this?

The suscopts official instructions speak of sponsors, and I can't think why the Coptic Orthodox would abandon such an ancient tradition which all others preserve?

I wonder when and why there is a difference of practice in some places?

[Orthodox11]

Hi Mabsoota,

Have you been taught that we don't have baptismal sponsors? Which diocese teaches this?

The suscopts official instructions speak of sponsors, and I can't think why the Coptic Orthodox would abandon such an ancient tradition which all others preserve?

I wonder when and why there is a difference of practice in some places?

From what I understand, it has become common in the Coptic Church for the parents to act as godparents at the baptism of infants. It could be that this, having become the norm, has lead to the disappearance of sponsors from adult baptisms, since the parents of an adult candidate would either not be present, or, if present, not be Orthodox.

[Seafra]

Hi Mabsoota,

Have you been taught that we don't have baptismal sponsors? Which diocese teaches this?

The suscopts official instructions speak of sponsors, and I can't think why the Coptic Orthodox would abandon such an ancient tradition which all others preserve?

I wonder when and why there is a difference of practice in some places?

Hey Father! The priest here never mentioned anything about sponsors either... He is familiar with my situation and having just moved there (obviously ) but never mentioned anything other than needing to pick a date for the baptism... I am going to try and pull him aside this weekend to get some more info

[Father Peter]

Orthodox11, that's a good suggestion.

Seafra, check the suscopts site as in its description of baptism it speaks of sponsors.

God bless all those preparing for baptism

[Jonathan]

Orthodox11, that's a good suggestion.

Seafra, check the suscopts site as in its description of baptism it speaks of sponsors.

God bless all those preparing for baptism

Father bless,

At my baptism, there was no sponsor. Just set a date with Abouna, and showed up. When my son was baptised, my wife and I held him, and we said the renunciation & the creed on his behalf. There were no sponsors/godparents. Once a mother brought her baby to be baptised and brought a non-Orthodox woman that she wanted to be the godmother. My priest let her hold the baby a bit so as not to make a scene, but he made the mother do everything, speak for the baby, give the name, etc. He said that godparents are not part of our tradition. The liturgical texts don't call for them anywhere.

I don't feel that I missed out. If the purpose a sponsor is to vouch for the person being baptised, and to be responsible for instructing and guiding them, well... my priest spent a year instructing me, so he was able to vouch for me. He took permission of a bishop before baptising me, and he continued to be responsible for guiding and instructing me afterwards. There is a strong monastic influence in the Coptic Church. Unlike the EO's, one may not confess to any priest, but may only have one father in confession who is a spiritual guide as well as a confessor. While obedience is often lacking in reality, and shouldn't be as strong as in the monastery, ideally, and often, there is a strong relationship of obedience to the priest. Perhaps this practise and relationship has supplanted the practise of having sponsors?

The text on the sus site does not look especially sound. It mentions practises that are popular piety, and not necessarily called for by the liturgical texts, and mentions other practises that are "not commonly done today", i.e. attempting to artificially restore past practises (which may be laudable, I don't trust the level of scholarship there to be able to reconstruct well). Now a days you can ask a dozen priests why things like the red ribbon are done, or why the babies are dressed like priests, and they will give you a dozen different answers. In fact, the practise of dressing them like priests started in the past 20-30 years, and is not at all authentic.

In any case, I'm sure that Seafra needn't worry, and can just follow the lead of his priest. If the priest asks him to select a sponsor, he can. If not, I'm sure he will be guided by his preist and cared for by members of the community just as well without an official selection as with.

[Father Peter]

That makes a lot of sense Jonathan.

I do wonder if there is scope for the use of a sponsor as adult conversions increase, not to replace the role of the catechising priest, but to commit to being a support to the new Church member. Often converts will have no-one they can talk to about the problems they face, and will not always want to, or be able to, sit down with the priest and just have some friendly conversation about things.

[Jonathan]

I see where you are coming from, but I personally think (no that that counts for anything), that we are better off with the current system.

In the early Church, there were many, many adult converts, and there was persecution, insuring a high level of sincerity among the converts and those in the Church.

Today's climat is much different. The number of adult converts is so low, that the priests can and should be primarily responsible for looking after them. Everyone is literate now, so every parent can read their children the Bible, and teach them to pray.

What would happen if we tried to follow a system that made sense in a very different environment? I can think of the people at church who essentially were godparents to me. They had me over at their house at all the feasts before I had my own family in the church. They answered my questions. They made me feel like part of their families. It arose organically, mostly after my baptism. What would have happened if there was a more formal system of having an appointed sponsor? Well, it would be like the early church where we're talking about people who had shown me the faith, and then vouched for me. I read online. Orthodoxy was mentioned to me, but not by someone really suited to be a sponsor. I ended up seeing and asking questions of my priest. It is the priest who guided me, and showed me the faith, so really, he is the one that fit the intent of what a sponsor is. Who would I then choose as a sponsor? I wouldn't know to pick the people who organically came to fill that place for me after my baptism.

What if sponsorship were a service, like sunday school, and a sponsor was a kind of servant. Then the two men and their families who filled this role for me probably wouldn't have, because their plates were so full of "service" they surely would have been unable to volunteer to be "sponsors" as well as "stewards". But since it wasn't something formal, it developed naturally.

Orthodoxy isn't unchanging. The Orthodox faith is, but it is expressed, and lived in each age, as a living, adaptive tradition. There's nothing wrong with a practise like this changing to meet changing conditions. Just like we no longer dismiss that catechumens, we no longer need to have the safeguard of a sponsor vouching for them. It's a different world. Though we need people questioning whether the changes being made are appropriate, so that Orthodoxy is safeguarded.

Maybe there are some places where the sponsor system works well for EO's. But from what I've seen, it's mostly become more of a cultural practise anyway.

Some Coptic Churches around here have servants assigned to handle inquirers. It really hasn't gone well

[Father Peter]

That's a good point Jonathan.

I think I am taking too romantic a view of things. You are especially right that if a position becomes formalised then it often loses its value. It is better for people to want to help then be told to help.

But I am thinking of a situation where adult converts are not unusual but are the norm. I am praying an expecting such a situation as the Lord wills.

[Seafra]

Fr. Farrington we both seem to be romantics to some degree I pray the mission is going well! The suscopts Bishop is visiting our parish this week so i guess ill be meeting him sat/sun I am sure that would be a great help as well! Your prayers are always appreciated!

[mabsoota]

hi, guys, just got internet back yesterday, so catching up on the discussion.
i actually agree with father peter that we should have sponsors, to deal with the large numbers of adult baptisms that we hope and pray for in the near future.
actually in the last few months, i have met quite a lot of converts, and today was with 2 other english coptic women all in the same room!
 
orthodox 11, u are right. i waited a while before telling my parents what i had done! they knew i was  a regular attender at 'that church' but i didn't want them to put me off. i was already married, so only had to discuss it with my husband. they are still ambiguous about it.

dzhermi, alf mabrook to u too!
pls both keep us updated. and ask if the priest minds u having informal sponsors / God parents. but choose carefully as u are not supposed to marry the children of yr God parents! (important but much overlooked fact...)

[Jonathan]

I've stated my opinion, and I don't want to argue it, but I'll just give one more thought:

It seems to me, that the desire to restore a tradition of sponsors is putting the cart before the horse. If we (every Christian) do what we should do as Christians, then the congregations will be strong and spiritual, so that it truly is an assembly of the faithful, then the priest will be truly just a member of the congregation, the elder who presides over the Eucharistic celebration and leads as a servant, rather than the too frequent state of spirituality being seen as something for the priests and monks, not us "normal" people, for whom another level is appropriate. Then the Church will be full of inquirers, and the people will be reliable to be entrusted with more care for those coming in, and a system like that that arose in the early Church will once again arise naturally. Just trying to restore such a system for the sake of it, or because we want to see more people coming in and be ready for it, is treating the symptom rather than the underlying illness. I don't think it is for us, as outsiders accepted into the Coptic Church, many of us not that long ago, or even not yet, to start saying that they have done wrong by making this adaptation. It is our place to lead a Christian life, and if enough try sincerely to do that, the rest will follow. We will stop having corrupt priest, proud "deacons", and power hungry bishops, since all of these come from the people. The Church is glorious, spotless, perfect. She is the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. But the way we act as individuals doesn't always show this to the world, doesn't manifest the spiritual reality of the Church. If we make our own spiritual lives strong, and support the spiritual lives of our families, and our churches, then these other things that might be less than ideally organized will improve as a natural extension. Trying to fix the externals while the internal problems remain leads to whitened sepulchres, more offices based on rights and vainglory.

[dzheremi]

dzhermi, alf mabrook to u too!

Alf shukr, ya ukhty.

pls both keep us updated. and ask if the priest minds u having informal sponsors / God parents. but choose carefully as u are not supposed to marry the children of yr God parents! (important but much overlooked fact...)

I'm not sure, but I don't think this applies in my case. The community here is so tiny. It seems like the dynamics are very different than other churches as a result. And the part about marrying the children of godparents...not an issue. No one here has a daughter anywhere near my age, and the women my age are all married (and mostly non-Anglophones). So I think I'm in the clear.

[Didymus]

+Christos Anesti!

Peace be with you Seafra,

Congratulations in advance for you
It's just over 5 years since my baptism into the Coptic Orthodox Church. In short, there's nothing for you to worry about. Remember to breath in before your head goes under water though Be aware that the robe you're baptised in may well become transparent when wet. Abouna Youhanna told me to keep the swimmers I was baptised in as a souvenir of the day. They can not be worn again after being baptised with them. Try to change quickly so as not to hold up your chrismation. It may be an idea to ask whether or not they plan on heating the water. Feel free to message if you have any particular concerns you would like to ask about mate.

[mabsoota]

didymus, loved yr post.
LOL!
 
God bless u

[Aidan]

I'm most interested in those who have opted to join the Coptic church. I am a basic jurisdiction jumper and having joined the Russian Orthodox church I am trying to restrain myself from jumping about.
So why does anyone in the face of the overwhelming numerical strength of the Greeks, Russians and whatever opt to join the Copts or any other 'Oriental' Orthodox?

[mabsoota]

ha ha,
coz it's the best!
 
ok, before i get in trouble i want to explain...
i actually think all orthodox churches are very good, but in our church (as in many other churches) we have really good teaching on how to deal with suffering, and lots of Bible studies.
we are all able to admit we are sinners (the desert fathers / mothers admitted that and we are obviously much worse than them!) and we try to accept the trials of life and use them for our spiritual growth.
we are not looking for comfort.
so we find it (in Jesus Christ).

i know lots of churches are like that, so it's not only our church that is the best, just i am a little bit biased...
and i don't think u should jump juristictions, but send p.m. if u want to chat more
 

[dzheremi]

It's not all a matter of numbers. In fact, none of it is. I attend liturgy in a tiny community that meets in a private home, as the Copts here have done for going on 16 years. Were it not for the faith there, I too would probably go to the more numerically-strong Greek Orthodox Church, which is also incidentally much closer to where I live. But we have to go where we are called...no differently than people who end up in the Russian Orthodox Church, or the Romanian Orthodox Church, or the Syriac Orthodox Church or wherever. Truth be told I have never considered the Byzantines, but I wouldn't begrudge those who found the faith there.

[Aidan]

I am in love with the devotion of the Copts and the faith of the Ethiopians. This may indicate a shallow faith , I don't know since the church I attend has certainly no major faults as far as I'm aware. I've asked an Ethiopian priest and a Coptic bishop as to the conditions for me receiving communion in their respective churches because the divisions between us is upsetting and also because there seems to be an inkling, to me anyway, of a more simple gospel faith.I have read the Ethiopian anaphoras and am most impressed.

So what I am saying is, are there grounds for me to change allegiance and, if so, what are those grounds?

[dzheremi]

Why would the internet know that better than your spiritual father? 

Also, I purposely took my time in converting to Orthodoxy (I attended my last RC mass in July of 2009, and will be baptized into the COC at the end of this month, so that's nearly three years) in order to make sure I wasn't converting away from something, but rather to something. This is a good thing to consider if you know that you have an impulsive personality (I'm not saying you do, but I'm assuming "jurisdiction jumper" is something that you recognize is a tendency you have to watch for, or else you wouldn't have called yourself that).

[Orthodox11]

So what I am saying is, are there grounds for me to change allegiance and, if so, what are those grounds?

I can sympathise with your love for the Coptic and Ethiopian churches, as it is one I share, though I have spent enough time with the former to see that they have as many problems as we do, albeit different ones. So while my love and admiration has remained, the grass isn't necessarily as green on the other side as it appears at first sight.

I think it's a bit like the feeling many people get when they visit monasteries and abandon their less spiritual parishes and attend liturgy at the monasteries every Sunday instead. The solution is perhaps to visit frequently, absorb what is good and beneficial, and try to bring that back to the parish you already belong to. God willing, there will come a time when you don't have to worry about "changing allegiance" to participate fully in the life of those churches.

[mabsoota]

great post again!
yeah, if u find the perfect church, don't join it, u will spoil it!
 

[Salpy]

I'm bumping this thread so Seafra and Dzheremi can tell us how their baptisms went.  Are there any youtube videos of your events?  Enquiring minds want to know.   

[dzheremi]

There are no Youtube videos of my baptism. Sorry. Nobody there had a video camera. Some people from the church (St. Mark, Phoenix...I attend St. Bishoy Coptic Community in Albuquerque) had still cameras, but I don't know any of those people, so I'm not sure what the procedure is to get any photos they may have taken.

It went okay. I think I got on poor abouna's last nerve with my dumbness and apparent inability to follow directions (that, in my defense, I did not know about until abouna was telling me "never do this" or "you shouldn't have done that", as the bird's eye view I was given of the baptismal rite the night before after Vespers turned out to not be enough; what can I say, I'd never seen a Coptic baptism save the video I posted in this thread, and that is obviously not the full ceremony). It was good, if a little nerve-wracking...I hope Seafara's went a little smoother, anyway!

I took the name Shenouda after the great St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and because I figured it would help me to remember that I came into the church under HH Pope Shenouda III, so that I can keep his wisdom with me while I am inadvertantly doing more stupid things that get on abouna's nerves. Hahaha.

Two babies and one toddler were also baptized on the same day. Abouna said it was the most people he'd baptized in one day in quite a while. (The Coptic community is not very big in AZ or NM, it seems.) I feel blessed to have been a part of it and so, sooooo relieved that it is over and I am finally home!

[biro]

There are no Youtube videos of my baptism. Sorry. Nobody there had a video camera. Some people from the church (St. Mark, Phoenix...I attend St. Bishoy Coptic Community in Albuquerque) had still cameras, but I don't know any of those people, so I'm not sure what the procedure is to get any photos they may have taken.

It went okay. I think I got on poor abouna's last nerve with my dumbness and apparent inability to follow directions (that, in my defense, I did not know about until abouna was telling me "never do this" or "you shouldn't have done that", as the bird's eye view I was given of the baptismal rite the night before after Vespers turned out to not be enough; what can I say, I'd never seen a Coptic baptism save the video I posted in this thread, and that is obviously not the full ceremony). It was good, if a little nerve-wracking...I hope Seafara's went a little smoother, anyway!

I took the name Shenouda after the great St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and because I figured it would help me to remember that I came into the church under HH Pope Shenouda III, so that I can keep his wisdom with me while I am inadvertantly doing more stupid things that get on abouna's nerves. Hahaha.

Two babies and one toddler were also baptized on the same day. Abouna said it was the most people he'd baptized in one day in quite a while. (The Coptic community is not very big in AZ or NM, it seems.) I feel blessed to have been a part of it and so, sooooo relieved that it is over and I am finally home!

Many years.

[Father Peter]

God bless you

[dzheremi]

Thank you, Biro. Thank you, Father Peter.

Now we eagerly await the story of Seafra's baptism...  

[CoptoGeek]

Congrats, dzheremi & Seafra!

obligatory zaghrouta 
http://youtu.be/STd-nb3OEOU