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Author Topic: A crisis of misinformation?  (Read 935 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: May 05, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »

I probably don't know all the nuances of the phrase "crisis of misinformation" (possibly I would if I were e.g. a businessman or a politician) but regardless I started wondering, just a short while ago, whether that phrase might apply to the state of Orthodox-Catholic relations.

Very often I'll hear -- on this forum, and on a couple of Catholic forums I participate on -- about how Catholics and Orthodox are extremely close, or even "the same". Very often, but not always, they are accompanied by contrasting statements about Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. not being at all similar to either Catholics or Orthodox.

These statements are generally presented with little or no evidence, and (it seems to me) a careful look at reality shows them to be false. Can they be written off as isolated incidents? My experience suggests not, hence "crisis of misinformation" seems entirely fitting.
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2012, 12:07:24 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

For comparative purposes, here is an Eastern Orthodox response to this idea. (It isn't so.)

So I agree with you, Peter. Please try to get your fellow RCs to agree with you too. They don't seem to listen to the likes of me. Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2012, 01:28:21 PM »

It's relative.... RC & EO are closer than to (most) Protestants.  However not as close of OO & EO's.
Also the RC is nuancing long-standing beliefs to go back to ancient understandings.
SO... depending where you look (especially at recent documents & dialogues) then there is hope.  Quite frankly it will take the pope to bring the two back into communion, just not in the way most RC's believe.  If B16 is serious about understanding what the role of Rome was in the first millennium especially first 500 years then there is a glimmer of hope.
 The pope will have to declare the filioque a mistake to have been mandated into the Nicene Creed (with the nuance that the meaning and intent wasn't what the Orthodox thought it meant).  Then have to nuance Papal Infallibility -- which I'm not sure how that would go.....
 So now having written that... maybe we are further than I thought... :-)
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2012, 01:30:30 PM »

For that matter there's a crisis of misinformation within the RC Church itself.  Does Papal Supremacy really exist?  What is the meaning of "the Church"?  May Protestants be "saved"?  The role of Mary as dogmatically defined... etc
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 01:43:33 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that as an example of misinformation; but now that you mention it, I can see how Orthodox would be bothered by that "We have almost everything in common".
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 01:51:54 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2012, 02:11:32 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that as an example of misinformation; but now that you mention it, I can see how Orthodox would be bothered by that "We have almost everything in common".
and we do not have a "true longing for unity" "in common," as we do not accept submission to any see as the definition of unity, much to the sorrow of both the Vatican and the Phanar.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2012, 02:15:23 PM »

I probably don't know all the nuances of the phrase "crisis of misinformation" (possibly I would if I were e.g. a businessman or a politician) but regardless I started wondering, just a short while ago, whether that phrase might apply to the state of Orthodox-Catholic relations.

Very often I'll hear -- on this forum, and on a couple of Catholic forums I participate on -- about how Catholics and Orthodox are extremely close, or even "the same". Very often, but not always, they are accompanied by contrasting statements about Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. not being at all similar to either Catholics or Orthodox.

These statements are generally presented with little or no evidence, and (it seems to me) a careful look at reality shows them to be false. Can they be written off as isolated incidents? My experience suggests not, hence "crisis of misinformation" seems entirely fitting.
I remember when I was embracing Orthodoxy, and the priest (who was a convert from the Byzantines, btw) made a comment about the Vatican and the Protestants as being two sides of the same coin.  I couldn't, being (then still) an Evangelical Lutheran who had gone to a Vatican school, accept that.  Since then, looking back, I see more and more how right he was.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2012, 02:31:43 PM »

I sort of have trouble understanding the whole liberal notion that we are 'practically identical' and everything. I admit that I am no expert in any position to speak harshly or give some extremely well thought out opinion like ialmisry, but it seems like the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have entirely different approaches, emphasizes and lifestyles in regards to doctrine, worship and spirituality. Maybe on an official standpoint we are very similar, although even that could be contended and has been by ialmisry. But either way, even if we are similar from that point, we still each have entirely different identities in terms of how we are and relate to spirituality and our faith. A millenium of separation does that to people. Imagine two brothers who grew up together and share the same DNA and everything, but then, around their twenties, they both go their different ways and live their own independent lives for ten or fifteen years. Finally, after that period of time, they meet each other once again. They are not going to be identical to each other or connect as easily as they did just because they are brothers, because they have become entirely different people. I appreciate the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has been kissing our behinds lately with how much they are trying to appeal to us for reunion and everything, but I just do not think it is going to happen.
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that as an example of misinformation; but now that you mention it, I can see how Orthodox would be bothered by that "We have almost everything in common".

It is not simply being bothered. It's the fact that the entire statement is a misrepresentation of reality, as per Isa's clarification. For all the language that I've heard from Rome and its faithful concerning this issue, the Vatican might as well relocate to Candyland or Shangri La and issue their proclamations via golden tickets inscribed with ink made from unicorn blood.
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2012, 07:22:36 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that as an example of misinformation; but now that you mention it, I can see how Orthodox would be bothered by that "We have almost everything in common".

It is not simply being bothered. It's the fact that the entire statement is a misrepresentation of reality, as per Isa's clarification. For all the language that I've heard from Rome and its faithful concerning this issue, the Vatican might as well relocate to Candyland or Shangri La and issue their proclamations via golden tickets inscribed with ink made from unicorn blood.

Sigh. My Mom was right.   Sad
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2012, 07:23:48 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

I was away from my computer most of the afternoon, but it occurred to me that we should make a distinction: there are some who make false statements, but there are others who just have an "accentuate the positive" approach. Kind of like writing a resume, you know what I mean? Similarities with Orthodoxy? Put them in big bold letters. Similarities with Lutherans? Downplay them, or don't mention them at all.
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 07:24:39 PM »

Sigh. My Mom was right.   Sad

Did she tell you there'd be days like this?
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 07:31:21 PM »

Sigh. My Mom was right.   Sad

Did she tell you there'd be days like this?

Well, she thinks trying to become Orthodox has really taken it out of me the past few years, and she has many times said it is too much. She wants me to become a Methodist. Respectfully, I don't think I will, but I've had enough times hearing people say stupid &@$" that sometimes I just want to punch a wall.
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 08:03:54 PM »

Sigh. My Mom was right.   Sad

Did she tell you there'd be days like this?

Well, she thinks trying to become Orthodox has really taken it out of me the past few years, and she has many times said it is too much. She wants me to become a Methodist. Respectfully, I don't think I will, but I've had enough times hearing people say stupid &@$" that sometimes I just want to punch a wall.

Which is stupider: Me poking fun at Rome for what I see as non-reality based assertions that underlie their approach to this subject, or Rome approaching this subject with a lot of non-reality based assertions that make their faithful continually assert that we are have the same faith such that even a faithful traditionalist Catholic like Peter J comes to an Orthodox message board to make sure that he's not the only one who sees things as a little off here? I didn't start the OP, I just took Rome's dumbness to its apex of dumbness.

Quote from: Peter J
I was away from my computer most of the afternoon, but it occurred to me that we should make a distinction: there are some who make false statements, but there are others who just have an "accentuate the positive" approach. Kind of like writing a resume, you know what I mean? Similarities with Orthodoxy? Put them in big bold letters. Similarities with Lutherans? Downplay them, or don't mention them at all.

Yeah. Look, it's not that I don't understand the motivation, it's the fact that downplaying reality doesn't make it go away or be anything other than what it is.
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 08:25:28 PM »

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

The portion of that quote regarding longing for unity aside, I read "we have almost everything in common" and think... Compared to what? What external thing am I using as a reference, here? Almost everything in common compared to, say... Unitarian Universalism? Mormonism?
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 08:42:47 PM »

Hahaha. That reminds me of an RC criticism of the MP's famous "Phos Hilarion" address before Georgetown University, which I had posted on an RC message board in an attempt to provide a brief sketch of how the Orthodox see themselves vis-a-vis the RCs. One person who read it said he thought it was interesting, but was confused about all this "ontology" business. After I explained that ontology is the study of the nature of being, he replied "So we're different beings? Which ones are the humans?"

Touche, Mr. RC message board guy. Touche.
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2012, 09:04:54 PM »

Hahaha. That reminds me of an RC criticism of the MP's famous "Phos Hilarion" address before Georgetown University, which I had posted on an RC message board in an attempt to provide a brief sketch of how the Orthodox see themselves vis-a-vis the RCs. One person who read it said he thought it was interesting, but was confused about all this "ontology" business. After I explained that ontology is the study of the nature of being, he replied "So we're different beings? Which ones are the humans?"

Touche, Mr. RC message board guy. Touche.

I think I remember that conversation. (You mean EP, right?) It was very interesting.  Smiley

I'm sorry, Peter, but it seems like your Pope is guilty of perpetuating this idea:

"A particularly close link already binds us. We have almost everything in common; and above all, we have in common the true longing for unity." (Orientale Lumen)

The portion of that quote regarding longing for unity aside, I read "we have almost everything in common" and think... Compared to what? What external thing am I using as a reference, here? Almost everything in common compared to, say... Unitarian Universalism? Mormonism?

Exactly. We have an awful lot in common, which is why people generally speak of Christianity as one religion. It's just that we usually focus the (relatively fewer) issues that we disagree on.
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2012, 09:20:27 PM »

Oops. Yeah, EP not MP. Typo.
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2012, 09:45:13 PM »

Sigh. My Mom was right.   Sad

Did she tell you there'd be days like this?

Well, she thinks trying to become Orthodox has really taken it out of me the past few years, and she has many times said it is too much. She wants me to become a Methodist. Respectfully, I don't think I will, but I've had enough times hearing people say stupid &@$" that sometimes I just want to punch a wall.

Which is stupider: Me poking fun at Rome for what I see as non-reality based assertions that underlie their approach to this subject, or Rome approaching this subject with a lot of non-reality based assertions that make their faithful continually assert that we are have the same faith such that even a faithful traditionalist Catholic like Peter J comes to an Orthodox message board to make sure that he's not the only one who sees things as a little off here? I didn't start the OP, I just took Rome's dumbness to its apex of dumbness.

Quote from: Peter J
I was away from my computer most of the afternoon, but it occurred to me that we should make a distinction: there are some who make false statements, but there are others who just have an "accentuate the positive" approach. Kind of like writing a resume, you know what I mean? Similarities with Orthodoxy? Put them in big bold letters. Similarities with Lutherans? Downplay them, or don't mention them at all.

Yeah. Look, it's not that I don't understand the motivation, it's the fact that downplaying reality doesn't make it go away or be anything other than what it is.

Calling people dumb- including a church which has a billion people in it- only makes things worse. Thank you, dzheremi, you have just increased my dislike of you and this board.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2012, 09:49:29 PM »

Calling people dumb- including a church which has a billion people in it- only makes things worse. Thank you, dzheremi, you have just increased my dislike of you and this board.

To be fair, I think he only called one person dumb (Mr. RC Messageboard Guy).  Some of your recent posts are very "turning to the dark side" of you.  Muahahaha
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2012, 09:50:05 PM »

Biro, are you Roman Catholic again to spite us or is that for real?
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2012, 09:53:49 PM »

Biro, are you Roman Catholic again to spite us or is that for real?

We're all Roman Catholic to spite you.

(Kidding. Grin)
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2012, 10:12:44 PM »

Biro, are you Roman Catholic again to spite us or is that for real?

Yeah, I do things just to p*ss off people on this board. Because none of you have ever had to change your beliefs or opinions before...

I'm not kidding. I'm a sinner like anyone, but there isn't a whole bunch of forgiveness and charity to go around sometimes, and it isn't only my fault.

I don't know what to do and I feel like I'm church-homeless sometimes. It seems to me that some folks have such a beef with the RCC that even if I did convert and become Orthodox, they'd still put me on the spot in their stupid arguments, as if I somehow bore the mantle for the entire church.

It does matter how you talk to people. When someone calls people dumb, that's not something that drops into the void with no echo. Time and time again, I've been told on this board that God will judge you more for your praxis than anything. What good does it to you to have a truthful faith if you call others dumb? What good does the faith do you if you never rise above, "Ha ha, we have the truth and you're just dumb, neener neener"? What is this, junior high?

Truth is one thing but I think you detract from its veneer if you act like it's a club for people who were born in the right place.

I've been trying to get this accomplished for years. It's not like I only heard of it last week.

I wish people would stop acting like things they say aren't real just because they're online. They're as real here as anywhere else.

I doubt things will change, though. I'm in a bind because I can't move right now. I don't have a lot of places to go.

Just remember, it's been said we're all converts- there was someone who said you have to convert to Christ every day.
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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2012, 10:15:11 PM »

To be fair, I think he only called one person dumb (Mr. RC Messageboard Guy).  Some of your recent posts are very "turning to the dark side" of you.  Muahahaha

No, no...I thought the RC message board guy was clever! I wouldn't have thought to interpret "being" in that way.

And just for the record, it's Rome's position that is out to lunch, not Rome's faithful. It's totally understandable, given the presuppositions with which Rome approaches the Orthodox, that Rome's faithful would by and large subscribe to the idea that they are practically the same church. It's still wrong, but if you agree with Rome's (wrong) position, then it makes sense. Rome is nothing if not a logical church preaching a logical faith, even when the substance of many of its declarations are highly illogical. Smiley

Rome's theologians, however, should know better, if they've ever had serious discussions with EO or OO leaders (which I have to assume they have, given all the agreed statements they like to tout). And, for what's it worth, many RC priests and religious whom I have talked to do not share the position that Peter J asks about in the OP. But thanks to the ideas like those put forth in "Orientale Lumen" and other places, there is still this popular notion that we are essentially the same. That notion is wrong, and those who advance it while knowing that it is wrong (because they know that the EO and OO have substantial theological and ecclesiological disagreements with them) should not be excused in any way. They are standing in the way of substantial progress in their relations with the Orthodox by perpetrating a well-meaning but overly optimistic falsehood. It is better to acknowledge the less than perfect reality and try to work from there than to put out grand declarations with false statements in them that make you seem less than serious about doing the hard work that is necessary to lay the ground work for any future actual union.
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2012, 10:20:56 PM »

Quote from: Peter J
I was away from my computer most of the afternoon, but it occurred to me that we should make a distinction: there are some who make false statements, but there are others who just have an "accentuate the positive" approach. Kind of like writing a resume, you know what I mean? Similarities with Orthodoxy? Put them in big bold letters. Similarities with Lutherans? Downplay them, or don't mention them at all.

Yeah. Look, it's not that I don't understand the motivation, it's the fact that downplaying reality doesn't make it go away or be anything other than what it is.

I'm not going to claim that those statements from the Pope are flawless; but I think that some other Catholics took them and ran with them, if you will, which the pope can't be blamed for.

Perhaps a good illustration of this is John Paul's statement that "little is required for full communion" between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Fr. Neuhaus (and others) made a slightly (!) different statement: that the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion.
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2012, 10:27:24 PM »

Perhaps a good illustration of this is John Paul's statement that "little is required for full communion" between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Fr. Neuhaus (and others) made a slightly (!) different statement: that the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion.

I was checking online for the wording of those statements, and I came across a post by the Administrator of the byzcath forum, in which he attributes the latter statement to JPII. I really don't know what to think of that. :emoticon:

Quote from: Administrator
Quote from: asianpilgrim
Quote from: Administrator
Quote from: asianpilgrim
Quote from: StuartK
And I would appreciate if you would stop telling me what I, as a Greek Catholic, "must believe".  I don't tell you, as an Orthodox, what you "must believe".
I thought you shared the same faith?
An analogy: Sharing the same faith does not mean that Greeks must forget Greek and defer to Latin, and speak Latin. It does not mean that we give up our perfectly good Greek theological 'recipes' and replace them with Latin ones. We do not need the theology of the Latin Church to be Catholic. We accept the theology of the Latin Church as Catholic, but not as the standard of Catholic theology to which we must compare our theology to. Those who read the documents of the Catholic Church should be able to see this easily.
I am not referring to Greek and Latin Catholics, but to Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. As you will note, my puzzlement refers to the exchange between Serge "the young fogey" (Orthodox) and Stuart (Greek Catholic). 
Byzantine theology - both Greek Catholic and Orthodox - is unchanged since 1054. Orthodox reject some of the developments in the Latin Church since then (but even here we can look to Pope John Paul the Great called the degree of communion 'profound' and stated that the only thing needed for full communion is full communion, and he was well aware of the unresolved issues). Greek Catholics accept these later Latin developments as valid but oftentimes useless to us or even poorly stated. Vatican II (as I've quoted before) said that our Orthodox spirituality and liturgy, discipline and theology is fully Catholic. Why do you reject this? You claim to accept Vatican II? It seems that you are trying to set standards of what it means to be Catholic that are far more strenuous and different than does the Church itself. You're coming off as a super-Latin here to judge our Catholicism. 

(emphasis added)
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2012, 10:35:27 PM »

I'm not going to claim that those statements from the Pope are flawless; but I think that some other Catholics took them and ran with them, if you will, which the pope can't be blamed for.

Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about that. The power concentrated in the Roman Pope in particular should also invest him with a corresponding level of responsibility in what he declares, shouldn't it? I too would hesitate to put every interpretation of his words at his feet, but at the end of the day, they are his words. He did write them, and I have to assume he did so because he does believe them. There may be more extreme or less extreme applications of them, but since they are wrong no matter what (meaning, it's simply not the case that "we have almost everything in common",  etc.), we're really just talking about degrees now. And I don't really think divining by degree when dealing with wrongness in faith/doctrine-touching matters is something that the Orthodox are very keen on. HH Pope Shenouda III was not, anyway, and I agree with him. It's not a matter of nice feelings, it's a matter of correct doctrine and correct faith, and Rome does not have either, no matter how close they say the RCC and the Orthodox are.
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2012, 10:36:34 PM »

Biro, are you Roman Catholic again to spite us or is that for real?

Yeah, I do things just to p*ss off people on this board. Because none of you have ever had to change your beliefs or opinions before...

I'm not kidding. I'm a sinner like anyone, but there isn't a whole bunch of forgiveness and charity to go around sometimes, and it isn't only my fault.

I don't know what to do and I feel like I'm church-homeless sometimes. It seems to me that some folks have such a beef with the RCC that even if I did convert and become Orthodox, they'd still put me on the spot in their stupid arguments, as if I somehow bore the mantle for the entire church.

It does matter how you talk to people. When someone calls people dumb, that's not something that drops into the void with no echo. Time and time again, I've been told on this board that God will judge you more for your praxis than anything. What good does it to you to have a truthful faith if you call others dumb? What good does the faith do you if you never rise above, "Ha ha, we have the truth and you're just dumb, neener neener"? What is this, junior high?

Truth is one thing but I think you detract from its veneer if you act like it's a club for people who were born in the right place.

I've been trying to get this accomplished for years. It's not like I only heard of it last week.

I wish people would stop acting like things they say aren't real just because they're online. They're as real here as anywhere else.

I doubt things will change, though. I'm in a bind because I can't move right now. I don't have a lot of places to go.

Just remember, it's been said we're all converts- there was someone who said you have to convert to Christ every day.

Strength, biro. Dumb***es are everywhere, in every religion. Internet fora just makes them more vocal.
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2012, 10:40:47 PM »

Sorry to repeat myself, but I just wanted to say that I know I'm not perfect either. I've said a lot of things I'm not proud of. I'm just sayin'... Sad
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2012, 10:46:13 PM »

Yeah, I do things just to p*ss off people on this board. Because none of you have ever had to change your beliefs or opinions before...
Not as much as you do.

Quote
I'm not kidding. I'm a sinner like anyone, but there isn't a whole bunch of forgiveness and charity to go around sometimes, and it isn't only my fault.
Why are you judging any of this based on an internet message board?

Quote
I don't know what to do and I feel like I'm church-homeless sometimes. It seems to me that some folks have such a beef with the RCC that even if I did convert and become Orthodox, they'd still put me on the spot in their stupid arguments, as if I somehow bore the mantle for the entire church.
Why not take things less personally and focus on Church activities than some of the bile that comes out of here.

Quote
It does matter how you talk to people.
In real life.

Quote
When someone calls people dumb, that's not something that drops into the void with no echo.
I get called idiot all the time on message boards and I spit out that kind of venom right back. I guess I don't take this sort of stuff as seriously as you do, however just forgive them for their words and move on. You can't control people's thoughts or speech.

Quote
Time and time again, I've been told on this board that God will judge you more for your praxis than anything.
Who cares what this board thinks? It thinks alot of things that are sometimes contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church. I know you can discern what is right and wrong.

Quote
What good does it to you to have a truthful faith if you call others dumb? What good does the faith do you if you never rise above, "Ha ha, we have the truth and you're just dumb, neener neener"? What is this, junior high?
Let people act immature and rude, the thing is you don't have to feed them.

Quote
I wish people would stop acting like things they say aren't real just because they're online. They're as real here as anywhere else.
I disagree. Alot of the people on this board I'm sure are very different outside of it. Me for example. I've been on message boards for years, you just have to develop a thick skin for other people. Maybe you don't have the experience that I do.
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2012, 10:47:38 PM »

If you are looking for a religion/faith that has perfect people all acting harmonious with one another, you will not find it. You have to set your expecations lower.

And you cannot have your faith dependent on what other people say or do.
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2012, 10:51:50 PM »

That's funny. I can name several people on this board who have said they have been in three or four different churches, political parties, and so forth. Some people have even had multiple accounts here under different names, and they're still here because they apologized, bu that's cool, I guess...

Guess I'm the only person who's got problems. Nice to know, I'm finally good at something.
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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2012, 10:54:12 PM »

That's funny. I can name several people on this board who have said they have been in three or four different churches, political parties, and so forth. Some people have even had multiple accounts here under different names, and they're still here because they apologized, bu that's cool, I guess...

Guess I'm the only person who's got problems. Nice to know, I'm finally good at something.
Who cares what other people do? Why does this bother you so much so that you are wiling to change your faith based on the comments that are made on this message board?

And guess what? It's called forgiveness. I apologized for making multi accounts, and I was forgiven. Why can't you do the same for others?
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2012, 11:03:23 PM »

Guess I'm the only person who's got problems. Nice to know, I'm finally good at something.

If this board bothers you that much, take a break.
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2012, 11:08:58 PM »

If the people who post here mean what they say, then they mean what they say. If the people who post here really are Orthodox, then they are really Orthodox.

Just because it's the Internet doesn't mean it's all Silly Putty.

There are lots of people here who are still hung up on what happened at Catholic Answers Forum years ago. There are people who rant about the Crusades like they happened last week.

I said before, I know I'm not perfect. It's just I've heard the same things so many times before, and people seem to wind up hiding behind the idea that if they have the true faith, it doesn't matter what they do.
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2012, 11:17:29 PM »

There are lots of people here who are still hung up on what happened at Catholic Answers Forum years ago. There are people who rant about the Crusades like they happened last week.

I haven't seen anyone on this forum recently rant about the Crusades.

I said before, I know I'm not perfect. It's just I've heard the same things so many times before, and people seem to wind up hiding behind the idea that if they have the true faith, it doesn't matter what they do.

So you either leave them alone or challenge them.  Sometimes, in challenging someone, you challenge yourself and that is the greater temptation if you start to question what you're challenging.
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2012, 11:30:33 PM »

If the people who post here mean what they say, then they mean what they say. If the people who post here really are Orthodox, then they are really Orthodox.

Just because it's the Internet doesn't mean it's all Silly Putty.

There are lots of people here who are still hung up on what happened at Catholic Answers Forum years ago. There are people who rant about the Crusades like they happened last week.
didn't we just talk about that accusation of yours against the Orthodox last week?
I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
Your Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, established in the Middle Ages, were still around at Vatican II, when you evidently think your ecclesiastical community's history begins.

Look a few years back, rather than centuries:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?m=201012
Quote
29 December 2010 | 10:21 | Source: Tanjug ZAGREB — A memorial service was held at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in Zagreb on Tuesday evening for Ante Pavelić.

The service also mentioned Jure Francetić, commander of the Ustasha Crna Legija (Black Legion).

The service was held by priests Vjekoslav Lasić and Stanislav Kos, who in referred to Pavelić as a respectable man who made sacrifices for all of Croatia.

Lasić, famous for his pro-Ustasha attitude and Pavelić-inspired sermons, called on the attendees to pray not only for Pavelić but also for Francetić, who, according to him, gave his life for Croatia.

Regardless of public criticism, Lasić has never been penalized by the Catholic Church nor by the state of Croatia, whose constitution emphasizes anti-fascist ideology.

Pavelić was at the helm of the WW2 puppet-Nazi Independent State of Croatia (NDH), whose Ustasha regime operated death camps where Serbs, Jews and Roma were imprisoned and murdered, including sites of mass slaughter such as the Jasenovac concentration camp.
Here is Pavelic a few decades, not centuries, earlier:

He's on the left. On the right is this guy

in the shrine. Who is that kneeling before him on the left?


The date on that is 1990.

This was the Orthodox Cathedral of Warsaw.

The Bolsheviks didn't do that.  Nor the Nazis.  The Polish government which had signed its concordat with the Vatican did that.  Less than a hundred years ago, it looked like this:

Not even a hundred years ago, let alone hundreds.  The matushka of my old Church used to tell us how the Polish police (she grew up in interwar Poland) would drag the priests out from the altars on Pascha to make them dance with bears in full vestments.  She passed away (memory eternal!) around 1990.  Not hundreds of years old.

Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  No thank you.  Once was a enough.
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2012, 11:45:07 PM »

See what I mean?

Isa comes back to goad me with pictures of people holding up Nazi flags.

And you wonder why I said what I said about this board.

You deal with him if you want to be a fanboy, Achronos. I can't take it anymore, and there's nothing else I can say that won't get me banned for obscenities.

Then again, I think the Nazi flag is an obscenity anyway. But that's cool bcause he's Isa, and all Roman Catholics=Nazism, and the heck with Charles de Gaulle anyway...

You deserve each other.
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2012, 11:52:19 PM »

I read a little bit of that blog because I was curious about the story that must go with the Nazi flag pic, and it seems like the author just really doesn't like Croatia(ns). As is their right, I suppose, but I don't think it's anything to upset about. After all, most of the world's Roman Catholics aren't nazis. They can't pass the Nazi application process, because they're brown people.
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2012, 12:05:13 AM »

See what I mean?

Isa comes back to goad me with pictures of people holding up Nazi flags.

And you wonder why I said what I said about this board.

You deal with him if you want to be a fanboy, Achronos. I can't take it anymore, and there's nothing else I can say that won't get me banned for obscenities.

Then again, I think the Nazi flag is an obscenity anyway. But that's cool bcause he's Isa, and all Roman Catholics=Nazism, and the heck with Charles de Gaulle anyway...
Nothing about the Crusades?
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2012, 12:10:45 AM »

I read a little bit of that blog because I was curious about the story that must go with the Nazi flag pic, and it seems like the author just really doesn't like Croatia(ns). As is their right, I suppose, but I don't think it's anything to upset about. After all, most of the world's Roman Catholics aren't nazis. They can't pass the Nazi application process, because they're brown people.
He does document his well based beefs, however.
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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2012, 08:04:39 AM »

I wish people would stop acting like things they say aren't real just because they're online. They're as real here as anywhere else.

Right on, sister!
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2012, 08:56:46 AM »

Biro, are you Roman Catholic again to spite us or is that for real?

Yeah, I do things just to p*ss off people on this board. Because none of you have ever had to change your beliefs or opinions before...

I'm not kidding. I'm a sinner like anyone, but there isn't a whole bunch of forgiveness and charity to go around sometimes, and it isn't only my fault.

I don't know what to do and I feel like I'm church-homeless sometimes. It seems to me that some folks have such a beef with the RCC that even if I did convert and become Orthodox, they'd still put me on the spot in their stupid arguments, as if I somehow bore the mantle for the entire church.

It does matter how you talk to people. When someone calls people dumb, that's not something that drops into the void with no echo. Time and time again, I've been told on this board that God will judge you more for your praxis than anything. What good does it to you to have a truthful faith if you call others dumb? What good does the faith do you if you never rise above, "Ha ha, we have the truth and you're just dumb, neener neener"? What is this, junior high?

Truth is one thing but I think you detract from its veneer if you act like it's a club for people who were born in the right place.

I've been trying to get this accomplished for years. It's not like I only heard of it last week.

I wish people would stop acting like things they say aren't real just because they're online. They're as real here as anywhere else.

I doubt things will change, though. I'm in a bind because I can't move right now. I don't have a lot of places to go.

Just remember, it's been said we're all converts- there was someone who said you have to convert to Christ every day.


I agree so much.
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