Author Topic: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew  (Read 964 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:10 PM »
The Orthodox Church refers to Jesus Christ as the new Adam; yet, apparently there is a reference in Matthew where Christ is referred to as the new Moses when he fed the 5,000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.  Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.


Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

That's all fine and dandy.  But the priest that personally told me Christ is the new Moses also went to St. Vladimir's, and he is the dean and priest of a Cathedral in the Orthodox Church in America.  More importantly, he's never told me anything false (as far as I can tell).  I won't mention his name in public because he personally asks all catechumens to not quote him publicly (he has had too many experiences where listeners take his words out of context, and once a news organization got a hold of a second or third hand quote and spread false reports about him in the community).

So... as I said I will say again... ask your priest if Matthew paints Christ as the new Moses.  If your priest disagrees with my priest, then perhaps we can continue this conversation about Moses and Christ in private and get to the bottom of why our priests disagree.

We can have this discussion in public where others can provide input on whether or not Christ was also the new Moses.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 06:25:00 PM »
Ummm. Acts420 wins again.

This ain't controversial.

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 06:25:50 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 06:30:05 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

Acts420 is making people look silly by besting them over and over by making what seem to be outlandish statements which are actually not that far from the truth.

From pre-marital sex, lust, pot, and now various types which foreshadow Christ in the OT and are made manifest and perfected in the NT.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 06:31:10 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 06:38:04 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

Have you read Matthew in light of the points made? The similarities are many and profound.

 
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

Have you read Matthew in light of the points made? The similarities are many and profound.

I have read Matthew and I have visited websites which call Jesus the new Moses; however, these websites are not based on Orthodox Christianity:

1.  https://apolojet.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/jesus-as-the-new-moses/
2.  http://crain.english.missouriwestern.edu/biblelit/NMoses.html

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecy; He is not the new Moses for the pre-Incarnate Jesus gave the Law to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 06:43:49 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

Have you read Matthew in light of the points made? The similarities are many and profound.

I have read Matthew and I have visited websites which call Jesus the new Moses; however, these websites are not based on Orthodox Christianity:

1.  https://apolojet.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/jesus-as-the-new-moses/
2.  http://crain.english.missouriwestern.edu/biblelit/NMoses.html

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecy; He is not the new Moses for the pre-Incarnate Jesus gave the Law to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

So no.

Thinking is more than google searching and worrying that you might agree with "non-Orthodox".
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 07:11:23 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

Have you read Matthew in light of the points made? The similarities are many and profound.

I have read Matthew and I have visited websites which call Jesus the new Moses; however, these websites are not based on Orthodox Christianity:

1.  https://apolojet.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/jesus-as-the-new-moses/
2.  http://crain.english.missouriwestern.edu/biblelit/NMoses.html

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecy; He is not the new Moses for the pre-Incarnate Jesus gave the Law to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

So no.

Thinking is more than google searching and worrying that you might agree with "non-Orthodox".

Up to this point, no other Orthodox person has refuted the claim.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,247
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 07:24:24 PM »
Adam, Moses, Joseph the All-comely, and various other OT figures are all regarded by the Church as being types (prefigurations) of Christ, just as the Mother of God is the new Ark. It's all over our hymnography. I can't understand the fuss.
No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to email me at the address in my profile.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 08:03:05 PM »
Adam, Moses, Joseph the All-comely, and various other OT figures are all regarded by the Church as being types (prefigurations) of Christ, just as the Mother of God is the new Ark. It's all over our hymnography. I can't understand the fuss.

The difference between the terms "prefigure" and "new"?

Moses prefigures Christ - no problem
Christ as new Moses - point of this thread

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 08:21:38 PM »
Believe what you want.  Christ is the new Moses because he led His people out of the Egypt of slavery to sin.  As Moses led the Hebrews to freedom, so does Christ lead us today.  Again, what is the big problem.  This is so obvious that 1) I cannot see why we are discussing it, and 2) it does not surprise me that commentaries are not full of it.  Most science books don't spend a long time explaining that water is wet.  The Bible is full of Types.  I don't see half of them, but this one is pretty obvious to me.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »
I'll go by what I've been taught; that Jesus is the new Adam.  If that includes as default Jesus being the new Moses, the new Joseph, the new David, the new Solomon, the new <Insert person that prefigured Christ in the Old Testament>, then I'll stop arguing those points.  I ask for forgiveness.

I'm not slick with words like some posters on this forum; however, I thought that Jesus as the new Moses was a bit excessive.  Moses died.  At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared; Moses representing the law and those who died and Elijah representing the prophets and those who are alive.  Jesus died and rose from the dead.  So, if I was berating obvious points, I apologize.   :angel:

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 09:34:12 PM »
There are many types of Christ in the Old Testament, including Joshua.  The chief type is Adam, so he is referenced most often, but there are certainly many, many others.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 09:34:12 PM »
So what exactly is the problem?

I don't see anywhere in the Gospel that Christ is referred to as the new Moses.  The prophecies fulfilled in Matthew do not make Christ the new Moses.

If you can't see how the stories of the time immediately following Christ's birth do not parallel Moses' childhood, and if you cannot see how Christ did essentially the same thing as Moses, but on a much grander scale, then I am sad for you.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline witega

  • Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 06:38:46 PM »
I'll go by what I've been taught; that Jesus is the new Adam.  If that includes as default Jesus being the new Moses, the new Joseph, the new David, the new Solomon, the new <Insert person that prefigured Christ in the Old Testament>, then I'll stop arguing those points.  I ask for forgiveness.

I'm not slick with words like some posters on this forum; however, I thought that Jesus as the new Moses was a bit excessive.  Moses died.  At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared; Moses representing the law and those who died and Elijah representing the prophets and those who are alive.  Jesus died and rose from the dead.  So, if I was berating obvious points, I apologize.   :angel:

I'm not clear on why there's an argument? Assuming Christ is a "new Moses" (and I agree with other posters that the imagery in Matthew and later hymnography are pretty clear) what consequence to this thought do you see that would be in any way controversial or contradictory to Orthodox teaching in general?
Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
I'll go by what I've been taught; that Jesus is the new Adam.  If that includes as default Jesus being the new Moses, the new Joseph, the new David, the new Solomon, the new <Insert person that prefigured Christ in the Old Testament>, then I'll stop arguing those points.  I ask for forgiveness.

I'm not slick with words like some posters on this forum; however, I thought that Jesus as the new Moses was a bit excessive.  Moses died.  At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared; Moses representing the law and those who died and Elijah representing the prophets and those who are alive.  Jesus died and rose from the dead.  So, if I was berating obvious points, I apologize.   :angel:

I'm not clear on why there's an argument? Assuming Christ is a "new Moses" (and I agree with other posters that the imagery in Matthew and later hymnography are pretty clear) what consequence to this thought do you see that would be in any way controversial or contradictory to Orthodox teaching in general?

I've worked through the issue.  There is no longer an issue.  Issue resolved.

When I had the issue, I thought that it was superfluous to consider Christ as the new Moses.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2012, 07:25:19 PM »
We can have this discussion in public where others can provide input on whether or not Christ was also the new Moses.

The "sermon on the mount" was given on a "mount" in the Gospel of Matthew in order to recall the image of Moses delivering the law on Mt Sinai, there was also the OT prophecy of the prophet to come who would be like Moses. Moses brought the people out of Egypt in the passover, gave the law, and established Israel as a people, and not just a people but God's people in the OT. Christ delivers us from sin and death through His passover, delivers to us the law of love, and established the Church as God's people.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,142
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Christ as the new Moses in the Gospel of Matthew
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2012, 07:43:04 PM »
The "sermon on the mount" was given on a "mount" in the Gospel of Matthew in order to recall the image of Moses delivering the law on Mt Sinai, there was also the OT prophecy of the prophet to come who would be like Moses. Moses brought the people out of Egypt in the passover, gave the law, and established Israel as a people, and not just a people but God's people in the OT. Christ delivers us from sin and death through His passover, delivers to us the law of love, and established the Church as God's people.

I'm OK with Christ as the new Moses.  Issue resolved.   :)