Topic: How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be..

[Tallitot]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

[Paisius]

I have had fairly close friends who were gay.

[yeshuaisiam]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

I am not gay, nor do I have any friends and family that are gay/lesbian.   I really don't run into people that I think are gay much.  I don't know any gay people either.  I see them on the internet a lot, read about it a lot, but I don't run into it much in person at all.

[scamandrius]

I'm straight and know several gay people. Some are counted as friends.  One of my great-uncles was gay and I knew both him and his partner.  However since I probably do not support attempts to  make gay people a protected class by force of the law, I suppose that's irrelevant.

[orthonorm]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

You might be surprised.

Have two aunts, twins, who are lez.

Always gotten along rather well with the gayz, if they were not too butch or effeminate. Have spent more time than I can count in straight friendly gays bars in the States when I drank just to get away from the stupid macho BS that runs rampant here. And I got free booze.

In short, know lotsa gays. Always glad when they start moving in. Great neighbors.  

NBD here.

Doesn't stop me from making fun though. It's what my people do.

It's all in love though.

[Agabus]

I have never considered myself gay, and generally choose not to pontificate about it as it.

I have many gay acquaintances, including a few years ago our family baby sitter.

The city in which I work is supposedly a gay destination, though I am not sure if that is anything more than local legend because of a few prominent gay couples.

I had a friend a few years ago who came out and assumed I would no longer want to associate with her because I am a Christian. That was the moment at which I realized the approach taken by many Christians is probably not the right one.

[JamesR]

I live in the Bay Area where there is a very high population of homosexuals. In some areas, I would say that twenty-five percent of the population is homosexual. So I do see them very often, sometimes on a daily basis. I've never really had any problem with lesbians at all; in fact, I tend to get along with them really well, they seem to be very nice and easy going women. I do have trouble with gay men sometimes, however, it does not really have to do with their sexuality but more with the fact that the ones I am around can be very egoistic and stuck-up like many wealthy people.

[Nephi]

I've had plenty of bisexual/homosexual friends, some were really close and others just friends. Even had a summer a couple years back in which I spent a good amount of time less-than-sober at a "party house" where quite a few homosexuals frequented the parties. One of them ended up becoming a really good friend, and he even tried to get me to date him for a while. I've also had a homosexual and two bisexuals for roommates.

[Timon]

I've never really had any problem with lesbians at all

im sure plenty of men out there feel the same way

[dzheremi]

I am originally from a bit north of James, which is more hippie/look at all these neat trees than Castro district, but there's still a fair bit of that, particularly in a few specific locations (a little town called Guerneville was/is our county's "gay mecca" and is actually a vacation destination for people from the SF bay area...when they want to get away from it all and return to a simpler, more Norman Rockwell-esque place to hold drag queen competitions and such). As such, I have some gay friends and possibly family (I'm not really in touch with my family very much right now, but there are some questions about some of my extended family). One of my best friends going back to preschool (hey, in a small town it's hard to lose track of people) has been a very open lesbian at least since high school, and two more have had M-F sex-reassignment surgery in the last few years (I know that's not the same as being gay, but one of them was the aforementioned open lesbian's very butch girlfriend for a few years; seems like an odd thing to me, but what do I know).

Can't say that I'm ever too bent out of shape about their gayness, just as I've never heard a peep out of them about my Christianity (that's more a problem with the ultra-liberal feministas I know; the crossover between the two groups is not as high as you could be forgiven for expecting). They're just people like everybody else. I don't approve of homosexuality as an activity or a lifestyle or whatever, but I also don't approve of everything other friends or family do just because they're straight. Heck, my hippie cousin named one of his little girls Lite Brite or something like that (I blocked it out of my head; it is too awful)...that may not be explicitly condemned in the Bible, but dang it, there ought to be a law...

[Cognomen]

Always lived in big cities; always been around gay folk.

A school I went to was so gay (not the beginning of a joke, but it might as well be) that a kid and member of the gay student club (whatever acronym they used, I can't recall) called an assembly and made the tearful confession, after much soul searching, that he was, in fact, [bnot[/b] homosexual.  Poor fella.  Similarly, I was almost suspended for not wearing denim on "Wear Denim on National Gay Day!"  Whoops.

One of my closest friends is gay.  He has some pretty interesting views, and while not being anti-gay (he's in a committed monogamous relationship), he's quite appalled at elements of the gay community. He's somehow "known" the Orthodox Church was the Church since he was a kid... now to reel him in.  Muahahaha.

Funnily, I received an email an hour or so ago from someone touting some "Love Free or Die" documentary about the "heroic" first openly gay bishop in the Episcopalian Church.  /Delete

[Nephi]

He has some pretty interesting views, and while not being anti-gay (he's in a committed monogamous relationship), he's quite appalled at elements of the gay community.

My parents have a fairly close homosexual friend in a committed monogamous relationship that also is a bit unique like that. For example he's on the nurture side of the nature/nurture debate.

[ialmisry]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

RT?

I consider myself a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  But gay, no.

I have had several close gay/lesbian friends and colleagues, some out of the closet, some not.

I seem to see a lot of folks here like to preach about what heterosexual people should do, what we feel, how we were brought up etc. etc...

[Shiny]

I consider myself a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Hmm not sure about this.

[dzheremi]

You're not sure that Isa is a lesbian? From what I remember from the picture thread, he's pretty butch-looking...

[Alpo]

Or have close freinds or family members who are?

Yep. I have gay genes from both family lines.

[ialmisry]

You're not sure that Isa is a lesbian? From what I remember from the picture thread, he's pretty butch-looking...

funny you should say that: my nickname groving up was "Butch."

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

I consider myself a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  

Me too! And I'm a real lesbian trapped in a man's body. In other words, I like women that actually look like women. In fact, I think I'm gonna start a protest movement against all these fake lesbians that date gals that look like boys. They give lesbianism a bad name!

BTW, thank you Ialmisry for giving me the courage to come out! Let the LTMB Movement begin! Lesbians Trapped in Men's Bodies must unite!


Selam

[dzheremi]

funny you should say that: my nickname groving up was "Butch."

Like looking into a mirror, no?

[JamesRottnek]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

I consider myself a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  

Me too! And I'm a real lesbian trapped in a man's body. In other words, I like women that actually look like women. In fact, I think I'm gonna start a protest movement against all these fake lesbians that date gals that look like boys. They give lesbianism a bad name!

BTW, thank you Ialmisry for giving me the courage to come out! Let the LTMB Movement begin! Lesbians Trapped in Men's Bodies must unite!


Selam

Well, you won't really need a new movement.  You qualify as transgender if you're a woman trapped in a man's body.

[Asteriktos]

My wife was gay. Sort of.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

I consider myself a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  

Me too! And I'm a real lesbian trapped in a man's body. In other words, I like women that actually look like women. In fact, I think I'm gonna start a protest movement against all these fake lesbians that date gals that look like boys. They give lesbianism a bad name!

BTW, thank you Ialmisry for giving me the courage to come out! Let the LTMB Movement begin! Lesbians Trapped in Men's Bodies must unite!


Selam

Well, you won't really need a new movement.  You qualify as transgender if you're a woman trapped in a man's body.

No, I'm not a woman trapped in a man's body, only a lesbian trapped in a man's body. And who are you or anyone else to tell me what I am? I have the right to decide my own identity, and you are hateful and discriminatory to interject logic and reason into the discussion. This is why we need a LTMB movement to fight such discrimination!


Selam

[Agia Marina]

I live in the SF Bay Area, too.  Here, you have to live under a rock if you don't have friends or acquaintances that are gay/lesbian/transgender.  A great-uncle on my dad's side was gay.    My Executive Assistant and a cousin on my dad's side are lesbians.  Two other cousins on my mom's side are gay.  My next door neighbors are a gay couple.  And, I have a friend who is transgender, and lives in Tasmania.  And, the list goes on.  Caring, giving people, all of them.  

[Shiny]

You're not sure that Isa is a lesbian? From what I remember from the picture thread, he's pretty butch-looking...

Isa is one of the most handsomest forum members. How dare you give him such a salacious label.

[katherineofdixie]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

I'm pretty much thinking this is a non-starter. Most folks have met or know people that self-identify as gay. For myself, in addition to various friends, acquaintances, co-workers and a former pastor, one of the finest men I've ever known, who was a beloved mentor to me, is gay.

[Punch]

Define gay.  I watch RuPaul's Drag Races, have two gay friends on Facebook, one a transvestite, and I love flowered tea cups and tea sets.  However, I think that the female form is the pinnacle of God's creation, and prefer not to have someone else's penis in the same room as me unless it is under at least two sets of clothes and remains there.

[alanscott]

I have a couple of family members that are homosexual. One of which is outspoken about it. Though logistics have us well separated and neither of us are great at picking up the phone, he is one of the closer people to me in life. I have had some friends, though not close ones, that were. I work with a couple of 'gay' men and woman and would consider them 'business' friends. My family members, friends, and a couple of the homosexuals I work with know my personal beliefs and opinions of their lifestyle, and also know how I feel about them personally. Two different issues you realize?

May I inquire as to why you would ask?

Peace & Grace


 

[orthonorm]

To answer the above about the reason for the OP. Here is the OP:

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

Emphasis mine.

[alanscott]

To answer the above about the reason for the OP. Here is the OP:

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

Emphasis mine.

Yea, I did catch that Orthonorm. I was intentionally vague in my question and that's not right.

Sorry Tallitot, I should have been more specific.  I’m asking even though you did state your reasoning because if you are making a serious inquiry I applaud you. It is a fact that many Christians (and otherwise) come off as judgmental toward homosexuality. I have not seen any threads on OC.net to which that has taken place but I'm fairly new and there are many many threads.

If  you are actually making a statement by asking a question,  assuming not many know or befriend homosexuals,  then that imho is questionable. The family member I mentioned in my prior reply is my brother. He is outspoken and I know he wouldn’t mind my divulging this. I love him with all my heart. We are able to speak about these issues without too much conflict because he realizes I see his actions and lifestyle separately that I see him the person. Hate the sin – love the sinner as the saying goes. (I say this believing we are all sinners and who more sinful than I?)

My point being; if you have been hurt or offended by some self righteous judgemental Christian than I am truly sorry, however, please know that when most (imo) speak out against homosexuality we are speaking out against the action not the person.

Not sure if that helps or even makes sense but it is why I asked ‘why you ask’.

Peace, Grace, & Respect

[acts420]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban?...

If by "gay" you simply mean sexually attracted to the same sex... then the answer to your question is "many more than will ever admit it publicly."  My best guess would be between 1% and 5%, just based on my personal experience with demographics.  

If by "gay" you mean "sexually active with the same sex," then the answer is even more certain to be "many more than will ever admit it publicly."

... Or have close freinds or family members who are?

I have two uncles that are gay, and I have one cousin that is gay and another that is bisexual.  I also live in San Francisco and have many gay friends.  I find them to be generally more kind toward their neighbors, better educated, and more classy than straight people.  That's just my experience.  There are certainly a lot of hateful, un-educated, and sloppy gay people in the world too.  This is just my observation from experience in life.

[vamrat]

Looking from the outside in, it seems like the better of the two options if your goal is to be a happy, well rounded person.  Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

I used to be somewhat exceptionally homophobic.  Then I actually started meeting some gay people.  Having met some I can see why they are called "gay".

[orthonorm]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

We'll see about that.

I think a lot folks will be surprised about how God judges.

[augustin717]

i live in boystown

[stavros_388]

I currently have two good friends who are gay. I've had many gay friends throughout the years. My best friend's brother is gay, too. Great guy.
One of my cousin-in-laws is a lesbian.
I love them all unconditionally.

Oh, and I'm a HUGE fan of The Smiths, if that counts for anything!

[stavros_388]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

We'll see about that.

I think a lot folks will be surprised about how God judges.

I like it, orthonorm. I like it.

[augustin717]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

[vamrat]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

We'll see about that.

I think a lot folks will be surprised about how God judges.

I consider knowingly and purposefully committing a sin is damning, particularly if it was unrepented.  In my situation I am attracted to females, not particularly attracted to males, so going gay just because I tire of dealing with womyn would be a sin for the sake of sin.  How God judges people not in this situation, that between them and Him.  I have no commentary on that, though many of these men, I pray for their salvation.

[vamrat]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

"I say this as a concession, not as a command.  I wish that all of you were as I am.  But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

That is the Salvific option.

And I assure you, I am NOT saying this flippantly.

[orthonorm]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

We'll see about that.

I think a lot folks will be surprised about how God judges.

I consider knowingly and purposefully committing a sin is damning, particularly if it was unrepented.  In my situation I am attracted to females, not particularly attracted to males, so going gay just because I tire of dealing with womyn would be a sin for the sake of sin.  How God judges people not in this situation, that between them and Him.  I have no commentary on that, though many of these men, I pray for their salvation.

This relies on what is written on their hearts. If they know it not to be a sin . . .

Knowledge sucks.

[orthonorm]

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

"I say this as a concession, not as a command.  I wish that all of you were as I am.  But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

That is the Salvific option.

And I assure you, I am NOT saying this flippantly.

If you KNOW it. And I ain't talking about reading it in a tract.

I am certainly damned to hell. But I really doubt the five homosexuals I know best are.

[biro]

I currently have two good friends who are gay. I've had many gay friends throughout the years. My best friend's brother is gay, too. Great guy.
One of my cousin-in-laws is a lesbian.
I love them all unconditionally.

Oh, and I'm a HUGE fan of The Smiths, if that counts for anything!

Okay, you're going to Heaven.   

[vamrat]

This relies on what is written on their hearts. If they know it not to be a sin . . .

Knowledge sucks.

There is no 'their' in the discussion.  I am only discussing my circumstances.  No one else's. 

Unless that is what your were getting at with "Knowledge sucks".

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

"I say this as a concession, not as a command.  I wish that all of you were as I am.  But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

That is the Salvific option.

And I assure you, I am NOT saying this flippantly.

If you KNOW it. And I ain't talking about reading it in a tract.

I am certainly damned to hell. But I really doubt the five homosexuals I know best are.

Indeed.  The Scriptures only seem to give two methods involving porking.  Get married and pork or don't pork.  I can't think of anywhere in the Scripture or Tradition, or whatnot where homosexuality is seen as a means for finding salvation.  I cannot think of which sacrament you would use to sanctify it.

Also, keep in mind that I am not judging the homosexual.  I am just stating, sodomy is not going to be a spiritual aide in the same way as receiving Communion, confessing of sins, or being baptized would be.  Apparently the Church considers that marriage between a man and a woman to be a useful aide or it wouldn't be a sacrament.

I have no doubt that some gay people will find salvation.  I believe God is merciful.  I would say there are many good ones out there but that is judging just as much as saying there are bad ones out there.  I have met some that I really liked.  Very few that I haven't.  But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

[dzheremi]

Where I come from, liking the Smiths/Morrissey means you're a Latina in her teens/early 20s...

[augustin717]

But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

Do people routinely approach you asking life-style recommendations?

[biro]

But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

Do people routinely approach you asking life-style recommendations?

 

That's good.

[Punch]

This relies on what is written on their hearts. If they know it not to be a sin . . .

Knowledge sucks.

There is no 'their' in the discussion.  I am only discussing my circumstances.  No one else's. 

Unless that is what your were getting at with "Knowledge sucks".

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

"I say this as a concession, not as a command.  I wish that all of you were as I am.  But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

That is the Salvific option.

And I assure you, I am NOT saying this flippantly.

If you KNOW it. And I ain't talking about reading it in a tract.

I am certainly damned to hell. But I really doubt the five homosexuals I know best are.

Indeed.  The Scriptures only seem to give two methods involving porking.  Get married and pork or don't pork.  I can't think of anywhere in the Scripture or Tradition, or whatnot where homosexuality is seen as a means for finding salvation.  I cannot think of which sacrament you would use to sanctify it.

Also, keep in mind that I am not judging the homosexual.  I am just stating, sodomy is not going to be a spiritual aide in the same way as receiving Communion, confessing of sins, or being baptized would be.  Apparently the Church considers that marriage between a man and a woman to be a useful aide or it wouldn't be a sacrament.

I have no doubt that some gay people will find salvation.  I believe God is merciful.  I would say there are many good ones out there but that is judging just as much as saying there are bad ones out there.  I have met some that I really liked.  Very few that I haven't.  But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

I think that this is why it is so important that we define "gay".  In our perverted, porn driven modern America, it seems like the BJ has replaced the goodnight kiss.  If we listen to modern culture, a male and a female cannot be in the same room for more than an hour without screwing.  First, I do not think this universal.  And second, I do not think that it has always been this way.  I can see no reason why two people of the same sex cannot love each other.  In fact, was not the disciple John "the disciple whom Jesus loved"?  Does loving mean that one HAS to have sex?  How many times do we read that Saints lived together as brother and sister?  Two people of the same sex cannot live this way?  I, too, was once rabidly homophobic.  Then I, too, met some gay people.  I am not so willing to judge them now.  Truth be told, I prefer a homo over an straight, alpha male, super jock douchenozzel as a friend any day.  And I am not saying that lightly.  Besides, I think that most homophobes are closeted gays anyway.

[stavros_388]

Where I come from, liking the Smiths/Morrissey means you're a Latina in her teens/early 20s...

Not in Madrid. See if you can find a girl in this audience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WayoWFKRiZ4   

The Smiths are timelessly and universally awesome, anyway. 

[dzheremi]

Of course not Madrid. Madrid is full of Spanish people; they're all already a bunch of teenage girls.

[JamesRottnek]

How did this board come to have so many San Franciscans?

[JamesRottnek]

Looking from the outside in, it seems like the better of the two options if your goal is to be a happy, well rounded person.  Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

I used to be somewhat exceptionally homophobic.  Then I actually started meeting some gay people.  Having met some I can see why they are called "gay".

Are you suggesting that homosexuals are more likely to be happy people than heterosexuals?  Suicide statistics seem to suggest you are wrong.

[JamesRottnek]

This relies on what is written on their hearts. If they know it not to be a sin . . .

Knowledge sucks.

There is no 'their' in the discussion.  I am only discussing my circumstances.  No one else's. 

Unless that is what your were getting at with "Knowledge sucks".

Unfortunately, it does not seem to be a good option for finding salvation.

What's the salvific option. geronda? Having sex in a monastery? There used to be a few videos on the internet filmed in orthodox monasteries ...

"I say this as a concession, not as a command.  I wish that all of you were as I am.  But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

That is the Salvific option.

And I assure you, I am NOT saying this flippantly.

If you KNOW it. And I ain't talking about reading it in a tract.

I am certainly damned to hell. But I really doubt the five homosexuals I know best are.

Indeed.  The Scriptures only seem to give two methods involving porking.  Get married and pork or don't pork.  I can't think of anywhere in the Scripture or Tradition, or whatnot where homosexuality is seen as a means for finding salvation.  I cannot think of which sacrament you would use to sanctify it.

Also, keep in mind that I am not judging the homosexual.  I am just stating, sodomy is not going to be a spiritual aide in the same way as receiving Communion, confessing of sins, or being baptized would be.  Apparently the Church considers that marriage between a man and a woman to be a useful aide or it wouldn't be a sacrament.

I have no doubt that some gay people will find salvation.  I believe God is merciful.  I would say there are many good ones out there but that is judging just as much as saying there are bad ones out there.  I have met some that I really liked.  Very few that I haven't.  But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

I think that this is why it is so important that we define "gay".  In our perverted, porn driven modern America, it seems like the BJ has replaced the goodnight kiss.  If we listen to modern culture, a male and a female cannot be in the same room for more than an hour without screwing.  First, I do not think this universal.  And second, I do not think that it has always been this way.  I can see no reason why two people of the same sex cannot love each other.  In fact, was not the disciple John "the disciple whom Jesus loved"?  Does loving mean that one HAS to have sex?  How many times do we read that Saints lived together as brother and sister?  Two people of the same sex cannot live this way?  I, too, was once rabidly homophobic.  Then I, too, met some gay people.  I am not so willing to judge them now.  Truth be told, I prefer a homo over an straight, alpha male, super jock douchenozzel as a friend any day.  And I am not saying that lightly.  Besides, I think that most homophobes are closeted gays anyway.

Judging from a multitude of Republican members of Congress, I'm going to agree with you.

[Sauron]

I do not consider myself to be 100% straight. I have never engaged in the behavior, though.

[Aaron M]

I could call myself "gay", although for feelings for what the word used to mean and what it "should" still in my mind - I now prefer again the old clinical word "homosexual".  (That, and I'm most often not a happy person.)

I hated the attraction for all of my teenage years and early 20s, then embraced it for a time enough to "come out" and have a relationship - sought to join a liberal affirming church, started to feel disappointment that all this did not truly make me a happy person, spiritually attracted to Orthodoxy but not having the mind to be actually convinced of all its ecclesiastical claims, anyway for the past three years repressed again while deferring to what seems to be the broad scope of historical Christian teaching on sex.  (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant before the 1930s...)

I know "of" gay/homosexual (men) at my workplace and a few other places, but as I'm overall an extreme loner and not outgoing, I don't have any kind of relationship or acquaintance with any other.  Maybe a lesbian sister in the hometown I rarely visit; I said "maybe" going by what she said some years ago, but then it was new and I don't know if she stuck to it.

I often wish that "nurture" were more of a solid argument, but as much as I can be "convinced" without reading for or against, believe it to be definitely not.

[vamrat]

But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

Do people routinely approach you asking life-style recommendations?

Everyday.  Some days I have a dozen or so gays asking me how they should live.  I am so tired of all these homosexuals asking for advice that I don't even know what to do.

[akimori makoto]

But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

Do people routinely approach you asking life-style recommendations?

Everyday.  Some days I have a dozen or so gays asking me how they should live.  I am so tired of all these homosexuals asking for advice that I don't even know what to do.

When homosexual males approach me, it is not normally to ask for life advice.

[vamrat]

But all the same, I cannot bring myself to recommend that lifestyle.

Do people routinely approach you asking life-style recommendations?

Everyday.  Some days I have a dozen or so gays asking me how they should live.  I am so tired of all these homosexuals asking for advice that I don't even know what to do.

When homosexual males approach me, it is not normally to ask for life advice.

 

Better them than furries...

[orthonorm]

Of course not Madrid. Madrid is full of Spanish people; they're all already a bunch of teenage girls.

Thank you.

[Sluggo1971]

I have two homosexual family members, my brother and my only uncle.  The finer details of their private lives (or fine for that matter) are never really the subject of discussion at Thanksgiving and Christmas when we see each other, they are simply my brother and my uncle.  I would add that neither of them seem to act as if their personal sexual behavior or orientation is an identifier, and both seem to find the identity politics obnoxious.

Despite having been that close to the issue, there was a time in my life when I found homosexuality and the typically associated behaviors to be the most repugnant things in the universe.  I gained a different perspective after being a criminal investigator for several years and realized just how bizarre and repugnant the sexual activities of "straight" people can be as well.  I became convinced that "normal" was something that only exists in fiction, and my final conclusion is that many people of all stripes make sex "sinful" by placing undue importance on it in their lives. 

[Marc1152]

I'm a heterosexual trapped in the body of a heterosexual.

[vamrat]

I'm a heterosexual trapped in the body of a heterosexual.

Trapped would usually imply that you are not happy with the situation...   

[primuspilus]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

[vamrat]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

Ugh.  I really want to play off your "half-sausage" comment...but I don't want to get a green dot.   

[primuspilus]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

Ugh.  I really want to play off your "half-sausage" comment...but I don't want to get a green dot.   

Sorry buddy, I saw the topic and could not help myself

PP

[Orthodox11]

I have had gay housemates, gay co-workers, gay classmates, as well as gay friends and have never had any problem with them as individuals on account of their sexual orientation. It's none of my business, nor am I particularly interested. The fact that I believe sexual relationships should be reserved for a specific context does not mean I think badly about those who disagree with the Christian position, or who struggle with a particular passion. A traditional attitude to sex should not exclude love and pastoral sensitivity.

[Schultz]

I'm not a homosexual, but I play a thinly veiled one on my podcast.

[augustin717]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

Someone I highly respect said that the only interesting conservatives are those that are gay or something to that effect.

[primuspilus]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

Someone I highly respect said that the only interesting conservatives are those that are gay or something to that effect.

Judging from your posts in the Politics section, I have no problem being uninteresting to folks you respect.

PP

[Punch]

Fear not! You cannot be fully Orthodox unless you have had the green dot. 

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

Ugh.  I really want to play off your "half-sausage" comment...but I don't want to get a green dot.   

[primuspilus]

Fear not! You cannot be fully Orthodox unless you have had the green dot

*sigh* more stipulations......

PP

[Tikhon29605]

My sexual orientation is gay and always has been as long as I can remember. I can't remember a point in my life when I did not feel this way.  However, I am not sexually active now and haven't been for almost 10 years now. I never had any spiritual peace when I was active sexually.  I did not have much success with gay relationships either. For a while I was promiscuous and found that completely unfulfilling.  It made me feel cheap and used. Then I began a relationship with a nice guy and we stayed together for about 2 years.  However, during that whole time the amount of drama I had to endure was incredible. It simply drained me. Drama and petty jealousy about everything, accusations about being unfaithful (even though I never cheated on him) seemed to occur almost daily.  We did have periods where were got along well, but our relationship was an emotional roller coaster. I realize not all gay relationships are like that, but mine was.  I was Orthodox when this occurred and voluntarily abstained from the Eucharist for the entire period that I was in this gay relationship.  I knew my priest would not approve of it.  I still did attend Divine Liturgy on occassion and told no one at church about it, except my priest (and I did that privately.)  I did not expect or demand that my priest 'bless' my gay relationship.  I received and respectfully listened to his advice and counsel.  I told him that I was not ready to make decision about this at present.  I needed time and I took two years.  At the end of the two years, I found I really missed Church and receivign the Eucharist.  My partner did not share my Orthodox faith at all.  In fact, he had great disdain for it. Nearly all of the gay people I knew (with a few expections) were appalled and shocked at my respect for the Orthodox Church and for Christianity in general. They couldn't understand my attraction to the Church, to its feasts and fast, its music, its icons and its dogmatic teachings.  Many of them, including my partner, told me I should just dump the Church entirely and either become an atheist, an agnostic, a Unitarian or an Episcopalian.  Overtime I simply grew less and less satisfied with my gay relationship. So my partner and I amicably decided to end it.  He started dating again and when he found someone, he moved out.  That was almost 10 years ago and I have not seen him since.  I have been celibate since then and I am content with it.  At least my conscience is at peace now and I don't feel torn between living in a gay relationship and living an Orthodox life.  I think my life has become more peaceful, calmer and less materialistic now. I have not "magically changed" my sexual orientation.  I'm still gay. I am still attracted to men. But now that I have actually experienced a gay relationship, I don't miss all the drama and tension that accompanies it.   Part of me, deep down inside, always felt that I should resist those gay urges and not act on them, even when I was in a gay relationship. I never was 100% comfortable with it.

I am not deliriously happy now, but I am content and reasonably happy.  And that's enough.

[primuspilus]

My sexual orientation is gay and always has been as long as I can remember. I can't remember a point in my life when I did not feel this way.  However, I am not sexually active now and haven't been for almost 10 years now. I never had any spiritual peace when I was active sexually.  I did not have much success with gay relationships either. For a while I was promiscuous and found that completely unfulfilling.  It made me feel cheap and used. Then I began a relationship with a nice guy and we stayed together for about 2 years.  However, during that whole time the amount of drama I had to endure was incredible. It simply drained me. Drama and petty jealousy about everything, accusations about being unfaithful (even though I never cheated on him) seemed to occur almost daily.  We did have periods where were got along well, but our relationship was an emotional roller coaster. I realize not all gay relationships are like that, but mine was.  I was Orthodox when this occurred and voluntarily abstained from the Eucharist for the entire period that I was in this gay relationship.  I knew my priest would not approve of it.  I still did attend Divine Liturgy on occassion and told no one at church about it, except my priest (and I did that privately.)  I did not expect or demand that my priest 'bless' my gay relationship.  I received and respectfully listened to his advice and counsel.  I told him that I was not ready to make decision about this at present.  I needed time and I took two years.  At the end of the two years, I found I really missed Church and receivign the Eucharist.  My partner did not share my Orthodox faith at all.  In fact, he had great disdain for it. Nearly all of the gay people I knew (with a few expections) were appalled and shocked at my respect for the Orthodox Church and for Christianity in general. They couldn't understand my attraction to the Church, to its feasts and fast, its music, its icons and its dogmatic teachings.  Many of them, including my partner, told me I should just dump the Church entirely and either become an atheist, an agnostic, a Unitarian or an Episcopalian.  Overtime I simply grew less and less satisfied with my gay relationship. So my partner and I amicably decided to end it.  He started dating again and when he found someone, he moved out.  That was almost 10 years ago and I have not seen him since.  I have been celibate since then and I am content with it.  At least my conscience is at peace now and I don't feel torn between living in a gay relationship and living an Orthodox life.  I think my life has become more peaceful, calmer and less materialistic now. I have not "magically changed" my sexual orientation.  I'm still gay. I am still attracted to men. But now that I have actually experienced a gay relationship, I don't miss all the drama and tension that accompanies it.   Part of me, deep down inside, always felt that I should resist those gay urges and not act on them, even when I was in a gay relationship. I never was 100% comfortable with it.

I am not deliriously happy now, but I am content and reasonably happy.  And that's enough.

Wow, thank you for that. It was very insightful. It takes a lot of willpower to do what you did. God bless you.

PP

[Papist]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

[primuspilus]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

I know quite a few gay folks that more than 1 of your observations could be attached to easily.

PP

[augustin717]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

I know quite a few gay folks that more than 1 of your observations could be attached to easily.

PP

And quite a few straights as well. So it's kinda meaningless. It says less about them yet it says way more about the prejudices of the 'observer" or whatever.

[Papist]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

I know quite a few gay folks that more than 1 of your observations could be attached to easily.

PP

And quite a few straights as well. So it's kinda meaningless. It says less about them yet it says way more about the prejudices of the 'observer" or whatever.

Ha! If you only knew me. Yes, there are many straight people who live this way. But I would say that the ratio of gay people who live this way is higher than the ratio of straights.

[augustin717]

let's grant you that:it seems to me that you think that "virtuous behaviour" is exclusively nourished by the sacraments/reading the bible / Holy Spirit etc so that straight people would have more stable lives on average is just another proof of how righteous being straight is to begin with. you seem blind to the whole social, political and economic set-up that already makes it easier for a heterosexual to live a more stable life, sacraments or not.

[Schultz]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

I know quite a few gay folks that more than 1 of your observations could be attached to easily.

PP

And quite a few straights as well. So it's kinda meaningless. It says less about them yet it says way more about the prejudices of the 'observer" or whatever.

Ha! If you only knew me. Yes, there are many straight people who live this way. But I would say that the ratio of gay people who live this way is higher than the ratio of straights.

Many of these observations (particularly 3, 6, and7) could also be directly caused by being told from day one that you're a perverse POS who doesn't deserve to live on God's green earth simply because you're attracted to the same sex (b/c to many, having those feelings and actively engaging in them are one in the same).  When you're constantly told you're nothing, you tend to believe it.

[Papist]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

I know quite a few gay folks that more than 1 of your observations could be attached to easily.

PP

And quite a few straights as well. So it's kinda meaningless. It says less about them yet it says way more about the prejudices of the 'observer" or whatever.

Ha! If you only knew me. Yes, there are many straight people who live this way. But I would say that the ratio of gay people who live this way is higher than the ratio of straights.

Many of these observations (particularly 3, 6, and7) could also be directly caused by being told from day one that you're a perverse POS who doesn't deserve to live on God's green earth simply because you're attracted to the same sex (b/c to many, having those feelings and actively engaging in them are one in the same).  When you're constantly told you're nothing, you tend to believe it.

That could very much be the case. If some one is constantly being picked on very being a "sissy" one will look for something to validate one's own worth.

[Marc1152]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

Except for number 7 this fits all my Jewish Friends and Family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJd3MgIcbnA

[dzheremi]

I think it's unfair to generalize across such a diverse group of people based on one common variable. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, remember? I am not native to Albuquerque (nor do I know any openly gay people here), but back home in California I have several gay friends whom I am quite close to, and none of them seems more obviously damaged in the ways enumerated by Papist than any of my straight friends might be. I will say that there are certain aspects of gay culture or whatever you'd call it that definitely fit with that analysis, but those aspects are not part and parcel of what it means to be gay in toto, as far as I can tell from my gay friends' own observations (so, with basically the same strength of evidence as Papist has).

[Papist]

I think it's unfair to generalize across such a diverse group of people based on one common variable. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, remember? I am not native to Albuquerque (nor do I know any openly gay people here), but back home in California I have several gay friends whom I am quite close to, and none of them seems more obviously damaged in the ways enumerated by Papist than any of my straight friends might be. I will say that there are certain aspects of gay culture or whatever you'd call it that definitely fit with that analysis, but those aspects are not part and parcel of what it means to be gay in toto, as far as I can tell from my gay friends' own observations (so, with basically the same strength of evidence as Papist has).

I'm not saying that my observations cut accross all lines. What I am saying is that of the many gay people I have known, many exhibit most or all of the characteristics that I note above.
However, there is one gay friend that I can think of that seems happy and well adjusted.

[JamesRottnek]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

Whenever you must start off a comment with "I am not a bigot," you should already know you have a problem.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

Whenever you must start off a comment with "I am not a bigot," you should already know you have a problem.

Unfair propaganda.



Selam

[Shiny]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

ROFL, agreed.

[witega]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

I have a gay friend, veteran of Iraq, who once spent an entire evening ranting about this--something along the lines "if you weren't flaming before you came out of the closet, then why are you putting on the act now."

[primuspilus]

Im not gay, nor do I frankly give half a sausage about them either way.

However, what annoys me is the fake lisp and hyper-flamboyant BS act some put on as real. Leave the queer eye nonsense at home.

PP

I have a gay friend, veteran of Iraq, who once spent an entire evening ranting about this--something along the lines "if you weren't flaming before you came out of the closet, then why are you putting on the act now."

Yeah, I really dont care if you're gay, but please...do your cause some justice and dont be like:





PP

[Papist]

I am not homophobic by any means. I am very close to many gay people, and have had many gay friends through the years (Albuquerque being considered one of the more "gay-friendly" towns in the country). That being said here are my observations about the gay (male) community:

1. Very clean and well dressed.
2. Very career driven
3. Lots and lots of low self-esteem
4. pronographic community (everything is sexualized)
5. shallow approach to life
6. Very very very unhappy/lonely people, that try to mask this unhappiness with lots of booze and partying.
7. Lots of drug use and alcoholism.
8. Radically post-modern view of the world
And for the record, this is not me being "homophobic". Gay friends have actually verbally confirmed my observations.

Whenever you must start off a comment with "I am not a bigot," you should already know you have a problem.

Ha!

[Iconodule]

How many folks on this board are actually, or have considered themselves to be gay or lesban? Or have close freinds or family members who are? It seems that plenty of folks here like to preach about what gay or lesbian people should do, what we feel, ow we were brought up etc etc... i wonder if anyone here9besides myself) has any actual RT experience with the subject, aside from reading about it or hearing sermons on the topic.

A close family member. Not that it really proves anything either way.

[ialmisry]

funny you should say that: my nickname groving up was "Butch."

Like looking into a mirror, no?

I remember the movie, the scene where Sundance undresses Katherine Ross, and wondering "what's he doing?" (I was 4, and didn't know how girls were different (that wouldn't happen until I was 6).  Despite that, I had a girl friend at the time, and was attracted to girls).