our country is going off the deep end...

[Asteriktos]

Fair enough. And just to clarify, when I spoke of stopping abortions physically, I didn't mean killing, or even necessarily any type of violence/contact. I suppose some people would argue for that, but I think even something like taking some pages out of the environmentalists' playbook (e.g. chaining yourself to something in the office/entryway) could have disrupted the day's happenings, and may have made some women rethink things and decide not to go through with it after all.

[ZealousZeal]

Fair enough. And just to clarify, when I spoke of stopping abortions physically, I didn't mean killing, or even necessarily any type of violence/contact. I suppose some people would argue for that, but I think even something like taking some pages out of the environmentalists' playbook (e.g. chaining yourself to something in the office/entryway) could have disrupted the day's happenings, and may have made some women rethink things and decide not to go through with it after all.

I know a woman who did this. I'd share the picture, but it's not mine to share. She's a devout Catholic, and she and a group of her comrades literally chained themselves to tables in the clinic. I can't remember the whole story, and it was in the '70's I believe.

[Jason.Wike]

I didn't say anything about gays or Hitler.

Do you want to stand on that statement?

Yes, I think that he stands on that statement.  He mentioned sexual talk that was off topic by speaker but did not bring up homosexuality. 

So if it was a straight guy talking about his girlfriend you think he still would have been outraged? Really? Seriously? 

Yes, I would. Talking lewdly to kids is completely unacceptable.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

I didn't say anything about gays or Hitler.

Do you want to stand on that statement?

Yes, I think that he stands on that statement.  He mentioned sexual talk that was off topic by speaker but did not bring up homosexuality. 

So if it was a straight guy talking about his girlfriend you think he still would have been outraged? Really? Seriously? 

Yes, I would. Talking lewdly to kids is completely unacceptable.

I also would be uncomfortable, unhappy and outraged. It is true that many kids are exposed to lewd, coarse and pornographic language and conduct, sometimes at a very early age. However, that does not make me sit back and say "c'est la vie;" it makes me want to say "that is completely unacceptable." I would want whomever was responsible for Mr Savage's appearance to be disciplined for at least lack of common sense.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Fair enough. And just to clarify, when I spoke of stopping abortions physically, I didn't mean killing, or even necessarily any type of violence/contact. I suppose some people would argue for that, but I think even something like taking some pages out of the environmentalists' playbook (e.g. chaining yourself to something in the office/entryway) could have disrupted the day's happenings, and may have made some women rethink things and decide not to go through with it after all.

I know a woman who did this. I'd share the picture, but it's not mine to share. She's a devout Catholic, and she and a group of her comrades literally chained themselves to tables in the clinic. I can't remember the whole story, and it was in the '70's I believe.

Dorothy Day and the Berrigan brothers engaged in similar nonviolent tactics. Operation Rescue also did the same type of things. However, I think Operation Rescue was misguided- not because their philosophy was wrong, but because their strategy was wrong. The nonviolent efforts of Dr. King were based on sound Christian philosophy and sound Christian strategy. There is such a thing as Christian pragmatism. Our Lord told His disciples to be "wise as seprents and innocent as doves." [St. Matthew 10:16] The Civil Rights movement was ultimately successful because it was purposeful and pragmatic in its attempt to elicit sympathy for the cause. Operation Rescue didn't factor in the necessity of strategizing how to "market" their cause into a movement that would dovetail on the Civil Rights movement. That was their failure. That being said, I know that their actions saved lives, and that cannot be discounted. But I think there was probably a way to save lives immediately while also cultivating sympathy for the overall cause. But Dr. King was a rare genius, and Operation Rescue had a mere Randall Terry at its helm.

I highly recommend reading the works of Dr. King, especially his book "Why We Can't Wait." He is known for his oratorical brilliance, but he was an equally gifted writer- cogent philosophy wed to poetic eloquence.

I also recommend the wonderful biography of the Berrigan brothers called "Disarmed and Dangerous." Their actions met their convictions, epitomizing the concept of "social justice" long before the term was misappropriated by the Left and disparaged by the Right.


Selam

[Shanghaiski]

Ok, I don't pay much attention to the media, but a couple things this week have really gotten my attention...

First, Dan Savage was supposed to give a talk about bullying to high school journalism students. Instead, he talked about what his boyfriend looks like in a speedo and other sexual stuff (that stuff alone should have PERMANENTLY discredited him from anything professional, there should be a media fire storm, no man should be talking to high school students about this stuff). Then he said the bible was BS and called the kids that walked out "Pansy asses." Most of the kids cheered him on.

Then some woman on Dr. Phil wants to kill her disabled adult children... 95% of the audience says she should be able to.


Eh, there was something else I've forgotten by now but just these two are enough. Americans are loosing anything remotely like morality. Killing ("euthanizing" they say, but its killing) disabled people comes right out of the Nazi books. And even the Romans didn't let vile completely unqualified people like Savage teach their children, but we let him inform our children's world view? He teaches them to be promiscuous, and sex ed still teaches that oral sex is "safer" and "prevents AIDs" even though it has been realized that the HPV that causes genital warts and cancer now also causes throat cancer, and all STDS are becoming resistant to our entire range of drugs. 

I'm not sure that Americans were all that moral to begin with. Sure, there was more decency. Now that has gone away and more and more people are entering the groupthink that is mass media/Internet (sort of ironic to say that on an online forum). Years ago in my American history class, my teacher taught us that the cardinal rule of history is "the masses are asses." People are directionless, and they often accept no direction but their own thoughts--and if other people think like they do, it's a confirmation to them. This is, of course very sad. We go from worse to worse. But this is no reason to despair. God will always be in control, even in the midst of greater evils. Remember the story of the Holy Prophet Elias, how he complained to God that he alone was left and the king was seeking to kill him. And God told him he had preserved a remnant in Israel, every knee that has not bowed to Baal. And it continues to be so to this day. So, turn off the TV. Pray. Weep. Refrain from evil. Read Scripture. And learn what you can do for yourself and others.

[Shanghaiski]

Hey folks serious question here, but sadly I can't say if it's a smart one.

I think this is relevant due to the subject header but here goes:

Is it at all bad to tune the country, America, etc whatever is going on in the world out? Like pay no mind to it? Or should I do the respectable thing as a citizen and get embroiled in politics?

To the extent that politics is only a manifestation of human passions, I don't think it's worth betting "embroiled" in. It's worth knowing what's going on--but only to a point. It's not worth obsessing over. And I don't think one can ever tune it out entirely. Even the monks on Mt. Athos, though they may not read newspapers are listen to the radio, are always praying and weeping over the world, asking that God be merciful. This is what we do, too, as much as we can.

[Shanghaiski]

Hey folks serious question here, but sadly I can't say if it's a smart one.

I think this is relevant due to the subject header but here goes:

Is it at all bad to tune the country, America, etc whatever is going on in the world out? Like pay no mind to it? Or should I do the respectable thing as a citizen and get embroiled in politics?

One of the best things I ever did was to stop paying attention to the news. Media in general.

If I ain't around here, I have no idea what is going on. And there is enough going on in my life I can actually do something about without getting lost in the constant stream of negative stories where I have no control over.

Adding thyme or rosemary to that sage advice would be superfluous.

[Shanghaiski]

I think Savage is really an anti-gay activist who is pretending to be gay, so as to rile up decent persons.

Alas, I think the decent persons count themselves too few to be effective when riled.

[Shanghaiski]

This country went off the deep in from day one. Slavery, genocide, abortion, and all the subsequent evils, perversions, and human rights violations that have ensued. While I share the laments of the OP, I always find it amazing that people are surprised by such BS and wonder why these things are happening. What could be more shocking and horrific than the legal slaughter of innocent babies in the womb? If we aren't outraged by that, then why should the rest of it bother us?

(OK folks, now you can go ahead and mock me for once again bringing up abortion. I'm used to it.)


Selam

I think we have come a long way since then, personally. Slavery has been abolished, and while racism still exists, we have made pretty big strides as a country for equality. Genocide is a thing in the past for Americans after what we had done to the Natives.

Our traditional foundations are shifting, but my question is will we end up becoming irreligious like Europe? We have moved away from a very conservative Protestant Christianity to something much more liberal to keep attracting peoplemoney.

I would look at it another way. While slavery has been abolished, aren't even more people treated as objects? While people are more aware of racism, hasn't prejudice increased? (Not just based on looks, but perceived ideological adherence, etc.)

I would not call any Protestantism conservative, given that their first act of conservation was to throw the baby out with the bath water. But, anyway, when you look at the whole picture, you see people who are directionless, rootless. They blow with the wind here and there. They have no fundamental values based on unchanging truth because they have adapted to the way of convenience.

[Shanghaiski]

I didn't say anything about gays or Hitler.

Do you want to stand on that statement?

Yes, I think that he stands on that statement.  He mentioned sexual talk that was off topic by speaker but did not bring up homosexuality. 

So if it was a straight guy talking about his girlfriend you think he still would have been outraged? Really? Seriously? 

Yes, I would. Talking lewdly to kids is completely unacceptable.

Indeed it is. I would hope that the parents were aware. Sadly, however, many parents have ceded their parental authority to the schools, and the schools have taken advantage of being a large organization against one family.

[orthonorm]

You all must not spend much time around kids who aren't frightened by you or something, cause most of them say worse.

Not saying that it is OK, but that I could tell some tales. Ones I hear daily that would scandalize you, if you think that "talk" to be inappropriate.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

This country went off the deep in from day one. Slavery, genocide, abortion, and all the subsequent evils, perversions, and human rights violations that have ensued. While I share the laments of the OP, I always find it amazing that people are surprised by such BS and wonder why these things are happening. What could be more shocking and horrific than the legal slaughter of innocent babies in the womb? If we aren't outraged by that, then why should the rest of it bother us?

(OK folks, now you can go ahead and mock me for once again bringing up abortion. I'm used to it.)


Selam

I think we have come a long way since then, personally. Slavery has been abolished, and while racism still exists, we have made pretty big strides as a country for equality. Genocide is a thing in the past for Americans after what we had done to the Natives.

Our traditional foundations are shifting, but my question is will we end up becoming irreligious like Europe? We have moved away from a very conservative Protestant Christianity to something much more liberal to keep attracting peoplemoney.

I would look at it another way. While slavery has been abolished, aren't even more people treated as objects? While people are more aware of racism, hasn't prejudice increased? (Not just based on looks, but perceived ideological adherence, etc.)

I would not call any Protestantism conservative, given that their first act of conservation was to throw the baby out with the bath water. But, anyway, when you look at the whole picture, you see people who are directionless, rootless. They blow with the wind here and there. They have no fundamental values based on unchanging truth because they have adapted to the way of convenience.

Amen to that.



Selam

[Achronos]

This country went off the deep in from day one. Slavery, genocide, abortion, and all the subsequent evils, perversions, and human rights violations that have ensued. While I share the laments of the OP, I always find it amazing that people are surprised by such BS and wonder why these things are happening. What could be more shocking and horrific than the legal slaughter of innocent babies in the womb? If we aren't outraged by that, then why should the rest of it bother us?

(OK folks, now you can go ahead and mock me for once again bringing up abortion. I'm used to it.)


Selam

I think we have come a long way since then, personally. Slavery has been abolished, and while racism still exists, we have made pretty big strides as a country for equality. Genocide is a thing in the past for Americans after what we had done to the Natives.

Our traditional foundations are shifting, but my question is will we end up becoming irreligious like Europe? We have moved away from a very conservative Protestant Christianity to something much more liberal to keep attracting peoplemoney.

I would look at it another way. While slavery has been abolished, aren't even more people treated as objects? While people are more aware of racism, hasn't prejudice increased? (Not just based on looks, but perceived ideological adherence, etc.)

I would not call any Protestantism conservative, given that their first act of conservation was to throw the baby out with the bath water. But, anyway, when you look at the whole picture, you see people who are directionless, rootless. They blow with the wind here and there. They have no fundamental values based on unchanging truth because they have adapted to the way of convenience.

Excellent points. And yes we are treated as objects, even numbers if you will.

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